Nerf Ranged 2014

[Torben]

yup leshy,  at some point chadz hinted that they might implement sth kinda like that in bg,  yay.


to clarify my poorly worded post:  i dont think xbows need a nerf,  but archers melee capability a slight buff.


kaf,  i concur that it would be nicer if people have to decide to either have a shield,  or an xbow.  or,  if they want both,  then they should be subpar in either single proficiency.
there again, pf instead of skill would come in handy.

[Grumbs]

I think one of the main problem is that ranged is too versatile. People should choose ranged or melee because what happens is people wonder why they should play pure melee when they might as well have ranged too and still have a good chance in melee. After all manual block, footwork and a bit of PS is often all you need to either delay a melee player while team mates shoot him or join in, or to simply kill him yourself. 1 hand stab especially is lethal with a bit of agi. I see some xbowers with shields even now, so they don't even need to know how to manual block to delay an attacker once he is in range

Nah I think we need to move away from hybrid ranged with melee, we just get this master of all trade characters and more people get ranged to counter them and there is less reason to play pure melee

About balancing xbows, I like the idea of turnspeed nerf for xbows if possible. Missile speed reduction, extra weight etc all help. But that doesn't change their melee capability when they drop the xbow

[Kafein]

Also, fixing shield coverage against projectiles would help un-fucking population balance. When you stand on top of the walls looking down on a ladder and some archer on that ladder can headshot you through your shield, what is the use of that shield ?

[San]

I had some experience with 1wpf and crossbow. It's pretty difficult for some shots at light crossbow and below, but a +3 arbalest with +3 steel bolts feels very accurate and fast for no wpf investment. When there are few players left, finding an xbow on the ground seems like the most optimal strategy.

I like these ideas:

Couldn't the necessity of wpf be increased? Lower base accuracy and reload speed on the crossbows but increase the effectiveness of wpf on them. It would make weapon master -the- stat sink required for crossbows, especially if they want to melee as well.

This would make it harder for random 1wpf guys like me to find an xbow on the ground near the end of a round and dominate the field. It should still be an option to help out against easier targets such as cav, but it shouldn't give you an absolute advantage over everything imo.

I think crossbows should have the accuracy penalty of being held to long like a bow does. It seems like it might get tiring holding something like a crossbow up for awhile especially after pulling the string back. I dunno, screw realism, first bring in game balance.

I think instead of a skill requirement maybe give them a higher strength requirement. Arbalest has a 21 str requirement and Heavy Crossbow gets something like a 19 str requirement. Making the crossbowmen who want to be hard hitters less accurate, have little kiting capabilities, but are also hard hitting in melee with very low melee wpf.

I think limiting a crossbowmens ability to turn while reloading is a good idea. They have way to much safety while reloading, they should be weakest while reloading, not most aware. But of course if this is added you must also remove the "view outfit" feature.

Above 15 for an arbalest makes sense and gives some breathing room to the underused crossbow and light crossbow without having to nerf stats.

I like the other choices, too, but they would need to be tested extensively to get a good feeling for what's fair. I don't particularly feel that turning while reloading is much of a problem, but it does make sense that they should be most vulnerable at that time. Some xbows may hate me for this, but maybe restricting movement until the whole reload animation is over might be an alternative? (would need a dedicated xbow to tell me why it's a bad idea). I think indefinite hold with perfect accuracy is a little breaking with hardly any risks, too.

Remove shield piercing entirely. If there is one single most important thing to do about crossbows, it's that.

After that, reduce the number of bolts per quiver and/or increase the slot count of heavy crossbows and arbalests to 3. Xbow/1h/shield builds take much too long to die once cornered if they turtle up. If you need something else, decrease missile speed.

I definitely agree with the first. I think steel bolts should be better balanced against normal bolts and slightly decreasing the ammo for steel bolts does make sense, too. I think I heard this first from Pentecost, but I like the idea of extra penalties for carrying multiple stacks of ammo for archers/xbows, just like we have with shields.

Also, fixing shield coverage against projectiles would help un-fucking population balance. When you stand on top of the walls looking down on a ladder and some archer on that ladder can headshot you through your shield, what is the use of that shield ?

Shield coverage is good IMO. The shields with good coverage/ high HP+low resistance just shouldn't get pierced by everything, especially since they are clunky in melee and slow you down even more.

[Kafein]

Shield coverage is good IMO. The shields with good coverage/ high HP+low resistance just shouldn't get pierced by everything, especially since they are clunky in melee and slow you down even more.

It doesn't feel like shield models reflect actual shield coverage, especially when comparing rectangular and round shields. What I'd like to see fixed is getting shot through the shield on the left or right side.

[Rumblood]

It doesn't feel like shield models reflect actual shield coverage, especially when comparing rectangular and round shields. What I'd like to see fixed is getting shot through the shield on the left or right side.

I've been talking about making shields effective against ranged for some time. They aren't doing what they should.

[Pinche]

I think crossbows should have the accuracy penalty of being held to long like a bow does. It seems like it might get tiring holding something like a crossbow up for awhile especially after pulling the string back. I dunno, screw realism, first bring in game balance.

I think instead of a skill requirement maybe give them a higher strength requirement. Arbalest has a 21 str requirement and Heavy Crossbow gets something like a 19 str requirement. Making the crossbowmen who want to be hard hitters less accurate, have little kiting capabilities, but are also hard hitting in melee with very low melee wpf.

I think limiting a crossbowmens ability to turn while reloading is a good idea. They have way to much safety while reloading, they should be weakest while reloading, not most aware. But of course if this is added you must also remove the "view outfit" feature.

I also think the "View Outfit" feature in Warband should be taken out for everyone. I have to admit I love using it, I use it constantly to watch my back. But it's a really lame feature since you never know if that guy you're behind actually sees you or is he oblivious to my presence?

Add mobile necks to this shitty game then.

[Jarold]

Add mobile necks to this shitty game then.

....or you know do what you do in every freaking third person or first person action game you've ever played. TURN YOUR CHARACTER AROUND TO SEE WHAT'S BEHIND YOU! Seriously what makes this game so special?

[tisjester]

As a shielder none of this matters. This is only a problem because everyone plays 2h / pole. Just need one class to counter the strat of another class. No big deal.

[Templar_Steevee]

At last someone startet Nerf ranged topic with nerfing x-bows ideas.

And pls kepp this thread focused what to do with x-bows, for archers nerf you have a topic here: http://forum.melee.org/game-balance-discussion/how-to-nerf-archery-without-destroying-it/

[Zanze]

Hybrids are versatile, as they should be. Playing any pure class presents you with a pure counter, as it should. My 2014 notion that i've decided to spam everywhere is that infantry should become more willing to sink 3 skill points and 50 wpf into throwing and grab javelins. If even 60% of heroes did that then if ranged or HAs or bump-cav infest a server people can all bring their javs next round and rape them.

With an increase in high-level builds i dont see why more people don't do this tiny investment, sure it might mean at worst 1 less PS, Ath or WM, but what you gain is versatility and the ability to counter the classes you hate the most. This game has these build options you can use to counter the other builds, who's to blame if people are still determined to sink every point into athletics and Powerstrike without any variety?

I want more infantry to grab *some* throwing, that's my 2014 crpg goal. If successful then imagine the 'fun battles' next Strat if everyone can use throwing! If ranged infuriate you cos they have some melee, grab a tiny bit of ranged and stop being a sitting duck, you'll never be kited again, and throwing is brutal against reloading xbows. And it isnt like that amount of investment will negatively impact most melee-orientated builds anyway, just make them more useful in different situations. And if you care about RP, just imagine what kind of medieval warrior *wouldnt* be able to throw a basic javelin - laughingstock.

I support you in this. I've been personally trying to do that for a very long time with little to no success. I wish you luck.

Edit: Also, for Jarold and Pinche, the ~ lets you have 360 degree vision without turning your character. Very useful.

[Kafein]

Hybrids are versatile, as they should be. Playing any pure class presents you with a pure counter, as it should. My 2014 notion that i've decided to spam everywhere is that infantry should become more willing to sink 3 skill points and 50 wpf into throwing and grab javelins. If even 60% of heroes did that then if ranged or HAs or bump-cav infest a server people can all bring their javs next round and rape them.

Same answer

Having some throwing skill is handy when there are throwing weapons lying around, but the weapons themselves are much too heavy and costly to take with you if you aren't sure you will use them every single life.

Also, I doubt people would be all happy at all if 60% of the "melee" players had javelins. Those javelins would be primarily used against melee characters.

With an increase in high-level builds i dont see why more people don't do this tiny investment, sure it might mean at worst 1 less PS, Ath or WM, but what you gain is versatility and the ability to counter the classes you hate the most. This game has these build options you can use to counter the other builds, who's to blame if people are still determined to sink every point into athletics and Powerstrike without any variety?

First, throwing is not even remotely as useful to counter archers and xbows as are xbows and archers themselves. Second, it doesn't prevent you from getting shot. Third, it only adds maybe a dozen meters to your effective range compared to a melee weapon. And with 3PT the damage is going to be ridiculous even against low armor archers.

I want more infantry to grab *some* throwing, that's my 2014 crpg goal. If successful then imagine the 'fun battles' next Strat if everyone can use throwing! If ranged infuriate you cos they have some melee, grab a tiny bit of ranged and stop being a sitting duck, you'll never be kited again, and throwing is brutal against reloading xbows. And it isnt like that amount of investment will negatively impact most melee-orientated builds anyway, just make them more useful in different situations. And if you care about RP, just imagine what kind of medieval warrior *wouldnt* be able to throw a basic javelin - laughingstock.

Ranged that fight in melee don't infuriate me, it's those that don't fight in melee that infuriate me. A throwing weapon will not kill them and it will not magically teleport them to me either (rather the opposite as you can't sprint and throw at the same time). The funny thing is that unless you get the drop on them, in which case you might as well just use your melee weapon, archers and xbowers will kill you easier than you can kill them with your throwing weapons, even at ranges like 8 meters.


And if you doubt what I'm saying, trust me, I know what I'm talking about. I've been playing a 1h/shield/throwing hybrid (1h hammer, shield, two stacks of throwing weapons) with 6PT as my main for several months. Even in siege with ammo not being a real problem, it's just not worth it.

[Jarold]

Edit: Also, for Jarold and Pinche, the ~ lets you have 360 degree vision without turning your character. Very useful.

I know and I want it removed because it's a dumb mechanic, but I use it all the time lol. Thanks though.

[Kafein]

*edit* My general point is, the game already has provision for dealing with those annoying classes, if you want to just run at them and try and power through (like i do, Str-whore style, watch me fail playing this game some time) then do it, if you think you can dodge and strafe forever then do it, if that doesn't work for you grab a shield, if that doesnt work cos archers get you from behind or team up on you (which tbh should kill you whatever class does this to you) then try adding throwing or throwing/shielder to your arsenal - if not for permanent use then for 'special occasions' when it seems you cant move for massed ranged nests.

Having played native i still have absolutely zero issue with ranged in this mod, there are fewer of them and the average armour/number of shots it takes to kill is higher. When i get headshot with my 0athletics shieldless character, i dont enjoy it, but... it's something you accept is going to happen a lot when you choose this class and build. Every class has a counter, hybridising even a little reduces your hard counters immeasurably.

The game has far more provision for dealing with basically anything that doesn't use a crossbow or a bow than for dealing with anything that has one. The first being skill. Cav is pretty much useless as soon as there are weak slopes on the ground and can generally not deal with anything aware of its presence. Shieldless infantry gets shot hopelessly, and shielders are outgunned in melee. Shielders should effectively counter ranged but they don't, rather the opposite. Isn't it troubling that you suggest taking throwing weapons "to deal with your counter" even though I should be the one countering ranged? Following your logic, my hard counters are heavy weapons and axes so I should seek defense against that. Guess what, I really don't have any problem dealing with basically anything one can throw at me in melee. When I fail in melee it's clearly my fault. Weapons that can blockstun me are harder but in no way impossible to fight.

For any melee class, the best way to deal with ranged is not to deal with them, as none have adequate tools to kill them. As shielder, what is standing outside of cover going to acheive ? That right, nothing. Your shield is so small it won't even help people directly behind you. Going forward under crossfire is only going to get you killed.

[San]

Even when playing around with the idea in my head as a joke, slipstreaming/drafting against kiters doesn't sound too bad haha.