cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: San on November 09, 2013, 05:08:55 pm

Title: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: San on November 09, 2013, 05:08:55 pm
Similar to strength builds foregoing WM, I believe that after the change that IF will become too weak. Maximum hp will go down as strength/balanced builds scramble to get some WM into their builds. This mixed with the upcoming power increase for agi builds as they maximize WM, I feel that IF will just get squeezed out by all but the hardcore strength builds and high level balanced builds that have extra points. I'm at 0IF myself and losing it was already an easy decision, even when my previous builds had 8+IF.

Currently, IF and WM have a niche where they are pretty bad individually, but when comparing 6-7 IF/WM to 1 point in PS/Ath, the tradeoff becomes more difficult to choose since there is a decent improvement once stacked.

I suggested once that hp should increase by strength/2 instead of strength, IF should give 3 points in hp instead of 2, and the base hp should be reduced by ~5. However, Paul pointed out that:
Quote from: Paul on September 20, 2013, 12:27:19 pm
HP stuff is too hardcoded iirc.

Instead of letting things play out, I felt that discussing this early would be helpful. Do you think anything can be done? Even so, do you think anything should be done or will IF be just fine?

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: Apsod on November 09, 2013, 05:35:09 pm
I am gonna have to disagree with you, if anything IF becomes a better skill.

They way I look at it is that as more people get agi builds the average amount of hp will decrease because of lower average strength. This will make IF a better skill than it is currently because it will have an average higher percent increase than what it is currently.

Feel free to correct my logic if it is wrong though :P
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: Johammeth on November 09, 2013, 05:54:38 pm
I just retired.

My new build is a 15-24 agi-hoplite, and I have 4 points budgeted for IF/WM.

I was fiddling around with with 4 IF set, or maybe a 2/2 split, just to try something new.

In light of the new changes, I don't think I can justify anything other than 4 WM.
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: San on November 09, 2013, 08:16:16 pm
Whoops, I meant increase base hp by 5 in my post. lol, that would completely neuter people's hp what I said before.
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: Gmnotutoo on November 09, 2013, 08:58:29 pm
Where is the option to nerf ironflesh? It is overpowered now and will be even better after the WM change.

And the 3 second partial move speed should be removed to make athletics more useful. Wasn't that originally put in because of kiting archers which are non-existent now?
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: Matey on November 09, 2013, 09:01:58 pm
Quote from: Gmnotutoo on November 09, 2013, 08:58:29 pm
Where is the option to nerf ironflesh? It is overpowered now and will be even better after the WM change.

And the 3 second partial move speed should be removed to make athletics more useful. Wasn't that originally put in because of kiting archers which are non-existent now?

I +d this though really... leaving IF alone is the best way to go. IF is a very strong skill for people who crutch on armour (you baddies and your metal armour) so making it stronger would be ridiculous. So just leave it alone and all is well enough.
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: Dach on November 09, 2013, 10:33:46 pm
Quote from: Apsod on November 09, 2013, 05:35:09 pm
I am gonna have to disagree with you, if anything IF becomes a better skill.

They way I look at it is that as more people get agi builds the average amount of hp will decrease because of lower average strength. This will make IF a better skill than it is currently because it will have an average higher percent increase than what it is currently.

Feel free to correct my logic if it is wrong though :P

Yep that will balance itself out, less people with high damage capability = IF getting better.
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: Apsod on November 09, 2013, 11:42:44 pm
Quote from: Dach on November 09, 2013, 10:33:46 pm
Yep that will balance itself out, less people with high damage capability = IF getting better.
Not just that, people will also have less HP making the 2 hp you get from IF help more than before.
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: San on November 10, 2013, 01:10:20 am
10IF, 30 strength = 85hp
0IF,   30 strength = 65hp

85/65 = 1.308, ~30% increase

5IF, 15 strength = 60hp
0IF, 15 strength = 50hp

60/50 = 1.2, 20% increase

I do not understand. If anything, the percentage increase is worse for agility builds. When damage easily exceeds 25-40 in one hit in medium armor, what difference is a 10-14hp increase? Armor protects you more than IF, and cranking up athletics+WM+armor and neglecting IF would offer more protection and speed. IF is decent once stacked, but compared to PS and the other skills it's a little lacking and definitely feels like a last choice. Strength + IF is definitely strong, but strength without IF is strong as well with 0 skill point investment. WM is becoming more essential, IF is going to be the first to decrease/be removed entirely.

Of course, buffing IF and leaving everything else the same is just not an option. HP increase from strength needs a huge change if IF is ever changed. What I am trying to get at is lowering hp for 0IF and give a better progression to good hp if you decide to use IF, just like the WM change. Unlike the WM change, I do not mean increasing maximum hp if you decide to max IF, perhaps even lowering it for really high strength builds.
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: Apsod on November 10, 2013, 02:53:02 am
Quote from: san. on November 10, 2013, 01:10:20 am
(click to show/hide)
I am not talking about maxing out IF. I am talking about the effect of each point in IF. Look at this:

(click to show/hide)

If you have 5 IF with a 30 str build the effect of the IF will be 15%, while on the other hand if you have a 15 str build and 5 IF the effect of the IF will be 20%.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: San on November 10, 2013, 03:00:55 am
Ah ok, I get what you mean. I sincerely hope IF will be fine next patch, since I feel quite resilient with decent armor at 0IF on a 15/24 stf and now 18/27 main character.
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: Apsod on November 10, 2013, 03:21:36 am
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on November 10, 2013, 03:20:25 am
What is the exact nature of the proposed WM change? I've heard it referred to plenty of times, but no detail.

Will it buff damage and make spam builds more damaging?
http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/wpp-sum-and-cost-formula-rework(includes-wm)/
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: MURDERTRON on November 10, 2013, 05:21:30 am
With the WM change, you'll see the average STR of players drop, and you won't really see an increase of high end WPF.  That will only happen in extreme cases.  Even if there was an increase of high end WPF, you'd have less PS hitting you on average.  Since the conversion of WM/WPF to damage is way lower than PS, you'll be getting hit for less damage in general.  So if anything, IF will feel stronger, but if you can't block for shit, its only going to get worse.
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on November 10, 2013, 06:05:12 am
My unscientific babbling shall commence promptly, now a word from our sponsor


My gut feeling is that IF is a great tool but to get the best out of it you need to stack it with armour. That's where it's really ludacris power kicks in.


I think it's a wait and see situation. Ultimatly the current system is flawed as fuck, BG:M should be a huge improvement unless chadz is mentally challenged in a serious way, I mean his lightly mentally challenged, he puts up with us :S

Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on November 10, 2013, 07:08:33 am
From what I can tell with SP testing/calculators with the proposed WM changes, damage potential from 1 pt athletics + 1 wm + 3 agi > damage potential from 3 str + 1 ps for any AGI value at 27 or below in light-medium armor, especially with stabs.

I'm a bit concerned that the WM change will make it too easy to max heavy crossbow/arbalest accuracy.

I'll probably still have a pure str fat crutcher because:
Strong nudge shoves are fun for gravity aboose/creating situations where it is easier to gang up on enemies
Still haven't heard of any plans for changes to valour, which greatly rewards standing around in clusterfucks
Strategus (no upkeep to worry about, and still the fastest way to get exp)
Thrust weapons like rondel/2d polearms are getting nerfed

I probably won't bother at all with IF with any builds where I have 18 or more agility, since I'll still get two-shot/three-shot by a very large margin by anyone who isn't AGI trolling anyway.
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on November 10, 2013, 02:40:32 pm
It's going to make the William Tell build retarded. Previously the best you could do was crank up the Heavy Crossbow but now the Arb will be spastic. In the right hands it already dominates.
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: Akynos on November 10, 2013, 05:24:45 pm
Is this an NA-only topic or don't I recognise some of you? :D
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: Scervo on November 10, 2013, 06:09:36 pm
IF will be much weaker than WM after this patch imo; yes the average amount of health will go down a little bit, but using that same logic someone could have said that weapon mastery was already op because everyone was a slow strength build. They're changing it so that just leveling cant get you enough WM without putting points into it, i think its only logical that IF should work the same way. 3 points in IF gains you what, the chance of being hit one extra time before dying every 3 or so lives? Whereas 3 weapon mastery will now give you at the lower levels 60+ weapon proficiency
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: Ronin on November 10, 2013, 06:14:35 pm
I will pump all of my remaining points into IF when I level up. 5 wm feels like it will be enough.
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: Pentecost on November 10, 2013, 06:43:32 pm
While IF is obviously not as indispensable as power strike or athletics, I have always felt it to be an important skill for melee. Looking at the increase it offers on paper makes it seem unappealing, but when I consider the number of times I have survived a round with less than 10% health left (ie many) I have never regretted spending points on it.
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: Ronin on November 10, 2013, 06:54:30 pm
Once I've seen Vincent_Ruth surviving a couched lance strike from a rohan rider (DTV bot). All because of ironflesh. Remember that, it's good for your health :wink:
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on November 10, 2013, 07:14:15 pm
WM change is never gonna happen anyhow.
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: pepejul on November 10, 2013, 08:25:24 pm
please, this is my build :

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=608745PEPEBUILD.gif)

What will happen in new system ?

What can I change to be buffed like a hero I m ?


Love thanks
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: Malaclypse on November 10, 2013, 08:41:27 pm
Quote from: pepejul on November 10, 2013, 08:25:24 pm
please, this is my build :

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=608745PEPEBUILD.gif)

What will happen in new system ?

What can I change to be buffed like a hero I m ?


Love thanks

I think with 5 WM you'll have a little less proficiency than you do now, but if you level up and get 18 agi (which it seems you're building for) and 6 WM you'll be pretty much unaffected as I understand it.
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: pepejul on November 10, 2013, 08:42:35 pm
Thanks...  I hope you are right !  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: HappyPhantom on November 10, 2013, 09:23:18 pm
What are the proposed/impending WM changes?
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: Elindor on November 10, 2013, 09:36:35 pm
Quote from: landscribe on November 10, 2013, 09:23:18 pm
What are the proposed/impending WM changes?

http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/wpp-sum-and-cost-formula-rework(includes-wm)/

Anyhow, I think they should still unlink Strength and IF (or at least do so after like 21 Strength) and then have IF be +3 instead of +2.
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: pingpong on November 10, 2013, 10:18:59 pm
Quote from: Elindor on November 10, 2013, 09:36:35 pm
http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/wpp-sum-and-cost-formula-rework(includes-wm)/

Anyhow, I think they should still unlink Strength and IF (or at least do so after like 21 Strength) and then have IF be +3 instead of +2.
STR giving hp is hardcoded, it cant be changed.
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: Elindor on November 10, 2013, 10:19:40 pm
Quote from: pingpong on November 10, 2013, 10:18:59 pm
STR giving hp is hardcoded, it cant be changed.

Oh yeah....   :(
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on November 10, 2013, 10:30:14 pm
It can be changed with 1.153+ operations, you just set the max hp/hp right after the player spawns.

That would require a WSE2 update though.
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: Eugen on November 10, 2013, 10:33:30 pm
ok, i am a little deranged /drunk...
- need more points in WM in new mode to be fast and get some extra damage
- need more agility to get that extra WM
- sacrifice Srength for Agility becouse of new WM curve?
- is it worth it? lose IF and PS becouse of WM.
Help?! I dont want to calculate this shit again.
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on November 11, 2013, 07:06:05 pm
I think it will make IF more useful.  Since now pure builds (non-hybrids) really didn't need more than 1 (or even 0) WM, they could put it all into IF.  Now you actually have to make a trade-off. 

At 18 str having 0 IF vs 5 is a huge difference.
Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: Phew on November 11, 2013, 07:34:56 pm
Quote from: Havelle Registered Voter on November 10, 2013, 04:02:33 am
I don't feel IF underpowered or not worth taking at all.

I'm on the fence about IF. San is right, that it is always more effective to spend points on more athletics (then wear heavier armor) than spending those points on IF. However, IF has its place;
-If you already are wearing the heaviest armor you can, due to cost or wpf constraints
-If you are already wearing full plate, then IF is the only way to increase survivability
-If you are right at the threshold between between 1-shot or 2-shot by common weapons (arbalest, bar mace, etc). Then a few points of IF effectively DOUBLES your survivability in these encounters
-It's a great place for "leftover" points; for instance, when I turn 34, I can either add 3 IF (increasing my HP by11%), or something relatively less useful like 1 str+1IF or riding

Title: Re: Will IF be too weak after the WM change?
Post by: Elindor on November 11, 2013, 07:49:33 pm
IF is more and more useful the more armor you have.

I broke this down in my guide for new players (which you guys are not) but its a good illustration either way.

Quote
Raising your strength and ironflesh will yield you more Hit Points, but HP is only so important without armor.
It is the combination between HP AND ARMOR VALUE that creates SURVIVABILITY

HP = LIFE
ARMOR = MITIGATION

Think of HP as an empty bucket and ARMOR VALUE as a valve you can tighten or loosen to adjust how much water is getting into that bucket. 
Now imagine that bucket being EMPTY = full health, and that bucket being FULL = DEAD
- If you have a big bucket (high HP) but the valve is wide open and water is gushing in (low ARMOR)...it won't take long before the bucket is FULL
- If your valve is mostly shut (high ARMOR) but your bucket is tiny (low HP), the little bit of water getting in will quickly make the small bucket FULL

- It is the combo between a decent sized bucket (HP) and a controlled amount of water coming in (ARMOR VALUE) that creates SURVIVABILITY.

Of course, Athletics does allow you to wear more armor without being slowed down, and also helps you avoid many incoming hits altogether, which is better than anything :)