Will IF be too weak after the WM change?

[San]

Similar to strength builds foregoing WM, I believe that after the change that IF will become too weak. Maximum hp will go down as strength/balanced builds scramble to get some WM into their builds. This mixed with the upcoming power increase for agi builds as they maximize WM, I feel that IF will just get squeezed out by all but the hardcore strength builds and high level balanced builds that have extra points. I'm at 0IF myself and losing it was already an easy decision, even when my previous builds had 8+IF.

Currently, IF and WM have a niche where they are pretty bad individually, but when comparing 6-7 IF/WM to 1 point in PS/Ath, the tradeoff becomes more difficult to choose since there is a decent improvement once stacked.

I suggested once that hp should increase by strength/2 instead of strength, IF should give 3 points in hp instead of 2, and the base hp should be reduced by ~5. However, Paul pointed out that:

HP stuff is too hardcoded iirc.

Instead of letting things play out, I felt that discussing this early would be helpful. Do you think anything can be done? Even so, do you think anything should be done or will IF be just fine?

(click to show/hide)

This is more preemptive patch discussion than simply game balance.

[Apsod]

I am gonna have to disagree with you, if anything IF becomes a better skill.

They way I look at it is that as more people get agi builds the average amount of hp will decrease because of lower average strength. This will make IF a better skill than it is currently because it will have an average higher percent increase than what it is currently.

Feel free to correct my logic if it is wrong though

[Johammeth]

I just retired.

My new build is a 15-24 agi-hoplite, and I have 4 points budgeted for IF/WM.

I was fiddling around with with 4 IF set, or maybe a 2/2 split, just to try something new.

In light of the new changes, I don't think I can justify anything other than 4 WM.

[San]

Whoops, I meant increase base hp by 5 in my post. lol, that would completely neuter people's hp what I said before.

[Gmnotutoo]

Where is the option to nerf ironflesh? It is overpowered now and will be even better after the WM change.

And the 3 second partial move speed should be removed to make athletics more useful. Wasn't that originally put in because of kiting archers which are non-existent now?

[Matey]

Where is the option to nerf ironflesh? It is overpowered now and will be even better after the WM change.

And the 3 second partial move speed should be removed to make athletics more useful. Wasn't that originally put in because of kiting archers which are non-existent now?

I +d this though really... leaving IF alone is the best way to go. IF is a very strong skill for people who crutch on armour (you baddies and your metal armour) so making it stronger would be ridiculous. So just leave it alone and all is well enough.

[Dach]

I am gonna have to disagree with you, if anything IF becomes a better skill.

They way I look at it is that as more people get agi builds the average amount of hp will decrease because of lower average strength. This will make IF a better skill than it is currently because it will have an average higher percent increase than what it is currently.

Feel free to correct my logic if it is wrong though

Yep that will balance itself out, less people with high damage capability = IF getting better.

[Apsod]

Yep that will balance itself out, less people with high damage capability = IF getting better.

Not just that, people will also have less HP making the 2 hp you get from IF help more than before.

[San]

10IF, 30 strength = 85hp
0IF,   30 strength = 65hp

85/65 = 1.308, ~30% increase

5IF, 15 strength = 60hp
0IF, 15 strength = 50hp

60/50 = 1.2, 20% increase

I do not understand. If anything, the percentage increase is worse for agility builds. When damage easily exceeds 25-40 in one hit in medium armor, what difference is a 10-14hp increase? Armor protects you more than IF, and cranking up athletics+WM+armor and neglecting IF would offer more protection and speed. IF is decent once stacked, but compared to PS and the other skills it's a little lacking and definitely feels like a last choice. Strength + IF is definitely strong, but strength without IF is strong as well with 0 skill point investment. WM is becoming more essential, IF is going to be the first to decrease/be removed entirely.

Of course, buffing IF and leaving everything else the same is just not an option. HP increase from strength needs a huge change if IF is ever changed. What I am trying to get at is lowering hp for 0IF and give a better progression to good hp if you decide to use IF, just like the WM change. Unlike the WM change, I do not mean increasing maximum hp if you decide to max IF, perhaps even lowering it for really high strength builds.

[Apsod]

(click to show/hide)

10IF, 30 strength = 85hp
0IF,   30 strength = 65hp

85/65 = 1.308, ~30% increase

5IF, 15 strength = 60hp
0IF, 15 strength = 50hp

60/50 = 1.2, 20% increase

I do not understand. If anything, the percentage increase is worse for agility builds. When damage easily exceeds 25-40 in one hit in medium armor, what difference is a 10-14hp increase? Armor protects you more than IF, and cranking up athletics+WM+armor and neglecting IF would offer more protection and speed. IF is decent once stacked, but compared to PS and the other skills it's a little lacking and definitely feels like a last choice. Strength + IF is definitely strong, but strength without IF is strong as well with 0 skill point investment. WM is becoming more essential, IF is going to be the first to decrease/be removed entirely.

Of course, buffing IF and leaving everything else the same is just not an option. HP increase from strength needs a huge change if IF is ever changed. What I am trying to get at is lowering hp for 0IF and give a better progression to good hp if you decide to use IF, just like the WM change. Unlike the WM change, I do not mean increasing maximum hp if you decide to max IF, perhaps even lowering it for really high strength builds.

I am not talking about maxing out IF. I am talking about the effect of each point in IF. Look at this:

(click to show/hide)

1IF, 30 strength = 67hp
0IF, 30 strength = 65hp

67/65 = 3% increase

1IF, 15 strength = 52hp
0IF, 15 strength = 50hp

52/50 = 4% increase

If you have 5 IF with a 30 str build the effect of the IF will be 15%, while on the other hand if you have a 15 str build and 5 IF the effect of the IF will be 20%.

(click to show/hide)

5IF, 30 strength = 75hp
0IF, 30 strength = 65hp

75/65 = 15% increase

5IF, 15 strength = 60hp
0IF, 15 strength = 50hp

60/50 = 20% increase

[San]

Ah ok, I get what you mean. I sincerely hope IF will be fine next patch, since I feel quite resilient with decent armor at 0IF on a 15/24 stf and now 18/27 main character.

[Apsod]

What is the exact nature of the proposed WM change? I've heard it referred to plenty of times, but no detail.

Will it buff damage and make spam builds more damaging?

http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/wpp-sum-and-cost-formula-rework(includes-wm)/

[MURDERTRON]

With the WM change, you'll see the average STR of players drop, and you won't really see an increase of high end WPF.  That will only happen in extreme cases.  Even if there was an increase of high end WPF, you'd have less PS hitting you on average.  Since the conversion of WM/WPF to damage is way lower than PS, you'll be getting hit for less damage in general.  So if anything, IF will feel stronger, but if you can't block for shit, its only going to get worse.

[FRANK_THE_TANK]

My unscientific babbling shall commence promptly, now a word from our sponsor

My gut feeling is that IF is a great tool but to get the best out of it you need to stack it with armour. That's where it's really ludacris power kicks in.

I think it's a wait and see situation. Ultimatly the current system is flawed as fuck, BG:M should be a huge improvement unless chadz is mentally challenged in a serious way, I mean his lightly mentally challenged, he puts up with us :S

[Huscarlton_Banks]

From what I can tell with SP testing/calculators with the proposed WM changes, damage potential from 1 pt athletics + 1 wm + 3 agi > damage potential from 3 str + 1 ps for any AGI value at 27 or below in light-medium armor, especially with stabs.

I'm a bit concerned that the WM change will make it too easy to max heavy crossbow/arbalest accuracy.

I'll probably still have a pure str fat crutcher because:
Strong nudge shoves are fun for gravity aboose/creating situations where it is easier to gang up on enemies
Still haven't heard of any plans for changes to valour, which greatly rewards standing around in clusterfucks
Strategus (no upkeep to worry about, and still the fastest way to get exp)
Thrust weapons like rondel/2d polearms are getting nerfed

I probably won't bother at all with IF with any builds where I have 18 or more agility, since I'll still get two-shot/three-shot by a very large margin by anyone who isn't AGI trolling anyway.