cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Warborn304 on September 30, 2013, 12:46:19 am

Title: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Warborn304 on September 30, 2013, 12:46:19 am
I think they seem OP compared to the amount you armor you have to wear to compensate for the dmg,  compared to most other (xbow) weapons.

They do have that fear factor though, which, no matter what class you are, you don't want to be hit by them.

What are your opinions on Arbalests, and xbow in general?
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Strudog on September 30, 2013, 12:48:35 am
For the reload speed they are fine
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Torben on September 30, 2013, 12:51:12 am
For the reload speed they are fine
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Templar_Steevee on September 30, 2013, 12:57:13 am
Str req should be increased for using them. For ex Arbalests 18 STR instead of 15
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Lt_Anders on September 30, 2013, 01:03:00 am
Hi, I have copyrighted that OP (http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/your-opinion-on-throwing-lances/) already. Please Cease and Desist from using all said material from LT_ANDERS or legal action will be taken. :wink:
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Teeth on September 30, 2013, 01:15:48 am
I deeply and genuinely hate them. It is one of those fairly uncounterable sources of tremendous damage. You can't systematically avoid them because of their high range and one bolt always takes over half my hp with any build or gear, which really shits on your round. This has nothing to do with my opinion on their balance, it's just purely the concept of medieval snipers that is no fun for me as a melee player. I hate them more than archers. Getting shot by an arbalest from a 100 meters distance, losing most your HP, it just feels more shitty than almost anything. Just bad luck, or worse, people having figured out you are a priority target.

Balance wise, the amount of melee efficiency they have to sacrifice for their ranged efficiency is really low. Their range efficiency is clearly very high, and because they always hang back and retreat they often fight in 1 vs 1 or 1 vs 2 situations where the 8 athlethics with a blunt/pierce weapon are godlike builds. I got a bunch of clanmates who are top notch melee players who played crossbow a lot for a while, and the package of easy ranged and easy melee kills made them go 20-2 continously.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Grumbs on September 30, 2013, 01:24:10 am
I think xbows are implemented very poorly. Low player skill requirement, low character skill requirement (well don't need to invest anything really). Low risk, high reward.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: San on September 30, 2013, 01:37:29 am
I pick them off the ground sometimes, and with 1wpf, they seem to have pinpoint accuracy and stay straight in the air longer than the other xbows. Overall, I hate xbows the most, and get hit by them much more often than arrows. My hatred isn't really isolated to just the arbalest. I wouldn't say they're that OP in comparison to other strong builds, just the nature of the class is annoying since they're hard to dodge (get bored and end up moving predictably after a while) and deal a lot of damage. I think they're easier to approach than archers if you catch them reloading or oblivious.

I've made it a strategy near the end of rounds to try to find xbows off the ground (preferably arbalests) because the reload speed becomes a nonfactor and helps fend off end-round cav and kiters. As a melee player, you might be more useful just fighting up close in the beginning of the round, but near the end they are almost invaluable if you can find one.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: BlueKnight on September 30, 2013, 01:40:12 am
(click to show/hide)

Post of the month
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Phantasmal on September 30, 2013, 01:58:33 am
As an arbalest user for roughly 16 gens, I would not mind seeing some sort of damage reduction to them (as long as they internally balanced the crossbows along with it). Their only drawback as of now is the extremely long reload speed (which can be mitigated efficiently with enough wpf). The arb becomes god-like on city maps when you can avoid any form of cavalry by standing on a building. But I will say this, it is extremely easy to shutdown any crossbow user unlike other ranged.

Rain: I don't mind the damage reduction, my biggest complaint is the significant effect on missile speed which completely throws off anyone's aim. I usually take a pure melee loadout whenever it rains on the server.

Dedicated harassment: Any kind of cavalry unit, especially ranged cavalry, can easily shutdown a crossbow. Nothing is more frustrating in this game then trying to fight a HA or HX with a 70 length short sword on an open plains map. Non-ranged cav can just keep you occupied until infantry arrives. Melee can harass you if they get close too and prevent a reload while archers can just run away, turn, shoot, rinse and repeat.

Edit: In terms of an average raw DPS, a dedicated archer would probably be more efficient as well.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: En_Dotter on September 30, 2013, 02:03:22 am
A real arbalest should be able to kill anything. Be happy u survive sometimes. If it was up to me i would make them more realistic.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: BlueKnight on September 30, 2013, 02:25:53 am
A real arbalest should be able to kill anything. Be happy u survive sometimes. If it was up to me i would make them more realistic.
Real arbalest would take way more to reload and you wouldn't be able to carry it loaded on your back
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Palurgee on September 30, 2013, 03:06:08 am
As I see it, the cRPG version of a "crossbowman" is hardly a crossbowman at all. Almost always they are a melee hybrid. And for good reason! Unlike archers and throwers, they don't have to worry about PD and PT, allowing them to put more points into PS and IF. I know this thread is about the arbalest but I'd like to broaden the discussion to the whole crossbow class.
I think that players who want to be melee/xbow hybrids should feel more limited to the lighter crossbows (hunting, light, regular). As the power of the crossbow goes up, certain features and stats should make it less appealing to hybrids. An obvious solution is making the arbalest three slots, but I think that's a bit far fetched. Why not make it unable to be sheathed? Increase it's weight dramatically? Reduce movement speed to a bare minimum while aiming it? Be knocked down if struck while reloading it? Increase the strength requirement to use it? These are just some ideas. I'm not bothered by arbalests as much as I am other features, but I do think the crossbow/melee hybrid needs to be changed -- not necessarily nerfed, just changed.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Johammeth on September 30, 2013, 06:41:49 am
So much hate for AreTheBests.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Tibe on September 30, 2013, 06:46:47 am
(click to show/hide)

Nothing personal, but after years of seeing you kick insane ammount of arse, its quite logical that any team that opposes you, should throw everything they haz at you first thing, before they start aiming for other people. :D You....and also Royanss. God damn that player.....
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Tanken on September 30, 2013, 06:50:03 am
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Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Segd on September 30, 2013, 06:56:10 am
Str req should be increased for using them. For ex Arbalests 18 STR instead of 15
Nice joke  :lol: My almost 35lvl char totally agrees what I(& all dedicated xbowmen) will need a respec. Increasing pd requirements for end tier bows from 6 to 7 would be a good thing too, Steevee  :rolleyes:

Arbalests are fine in Strat(except rain time). Do whatever you want if c-rpg though. Greater skill dependency for aim & reloading time would be fine(great penalties at 0wpf, none at 150)
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Penitent on September 30, 2013, 07:16:16 am
I think they a re fine.  Great damage and range, but super slow.  If you miss a shot at someone, or dont kill them, you aren't getting another chance.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Templar_Steevee on September 30, 2013, 07:24:11 am
Nice joke  :lol: My almost 35lvl char totally agrees what I(& all dedicated xbowmen) will need a respec. Increasing pd requirements for end tier bows from 6 to 7 would be a good thing too, Steevee  :rolleyes:

Arbalests are fine in Strat(except rain time). Do whatever you want if c-rpg though. Greater skill dependency for aim & reloading time would be fine(great penalties at 0wpf, none at 150)

I forgot to write about free respec in case of implementing my idea, but it won't heppen.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: [ptx] on September 30, 2013, 09:04:35 am
Losing *most* of your HP shits on your round? Try losing ALL of your HP to a single (non-headshot) hit. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on September 30, 2013, 09:11:43 am
Even with 160+ WPF, the reload time limits their power. An arbalest ripping you apart feels cheap 1v1, especially when the arablester is very far away and probably concealed in terrain. However, the arbalest's damage over time is nowhere near as strong as a melee weapon. There's a reason you rarely see crossbowmen topping the charts in score or kills. Battle, siege, strategus, even DTV.

A skilled arbalest user can take down important targets on the other team if they can recognize enemies by appearance. That is a benefit to their team that is not shown on the scoreboard. I still don't think they are OP though.

If you fire and miss your target, you need to pray you are in a safe spot or the target doesn't notice you. Reload time means you will often have to run away from aware enemies if you are going to reload for another shot. Depending on the map, you may only get 2 or 3 shots off before the enemy team closes in on your position. Having 75% or more of your ammo left (assuming you only have 1 slot of bolts) when enemies reach you will greatly reduce your impact in the battle. You have to run and run if you want to stand a chance of reloading. The entire time you run, you are being nearly useless to your team. A level 5 peasant could kite players to the same effect.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Kafein on September 30, 2013, 09:31:31 am
Nothing personal, but after years of seeing you kick insane ammount of arse, its quite logical that any team that opposes you, should throw everything they haz at you first thing, before they start aiming for other people. :D You....and also Royanss. God damn that player.....

That exactly why the tendency to bitch about ranged in particular increases when you ask better players (which doesn't mean someone that complains a lot about ranged is necessarily good at melee...). Ranged kills are much too random and should be made more skill based on both sides. Arbalests even push that further, as there are few things more gratuitous than a mid round bolt in the chest.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Tennenoth on September 30, 2013, 10:17:30 am
Personally, for me, it's the high missile speed coupled with the infinite hold that really gets me.

If you spot an archer aiming at you, you know they have a limited time to judge the shot & loose, then the arrow moves at a reasonable pace so that you have enough reflex time (providing you're a reasonable distance* away) to get out of the way.

With an arbalest (and in fact any crossbow) they can follow you indefinitely and they're not pushed for time, so, if you're in the open, unless they have never played an FPS (exaggeration) before you're going to have to avoid a super speed projectile. Now, I would expect most of the people playing today to have quite good reaction times (given our pedigree of playing partially reaction based games) and it's ridiculously difficult to avoid it.

In short, my opinion on arbalests, ignoring the massive reward for little risk & payload of damage that they dish out, the missile speed really detracts from a higher degree of skill needed to successfully hit a target. To suggest a change, it would be to missile speed, but that would be considered a nerf & I would preferably know the mathematical repercussions & current damage over distance.

Crossbowmen in general have their own place on the battlefield. They're very good at keeping people suppressed just by looking at their target & they should be used to effectively take down high profile targets. They have their place & of course we all hate being taken out in such a manner, but at the end of the day, they did get us.

* Please take into account I'm not talking when you're right up in the face of the ranged player, I'm talking, lets say... A ranged player on the other side of the field on "Field by the River".

I should mention I am trying to see this objectively, but failed to avoid relating it to my own personal experiences versus my own classes draw backs.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Gnjus on September 30, 2013, 11:10:56 am
before you're going to have to avoid a super speed projectile.


I usually stay away from item balance discussions but in this case I don't know what you people are talking about, half of the players base runs & turns around faster then the bolts, thus all your arguments are invalid. Most of the time you can sip your cup of coffee and at the same time play an Irish reel by the time a bolt reaches you and you know it.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: XyNox on September 30, 2013, 01:08:50 pm
As an archer, I can share the hate about arbalests. You can easily chain-row "click" archers to death from the edge of the map when they stop walking to take a shot. Not to mention that you dont even need an arbalest for that as the heavy crossbow is enough to one-hit most archers in the body. I did this with an STF once and topped scoreboard even though I rarely use Xbows.

(click to show/hide)

One thing I dont understand, why do Xbows still get such massive bonuses for looming ? 3 dmg on bolts and another 4 dmg for Xbow at +3.

On the other side, any nerfs to the damage or missile speed would pretty much cancel the purpose of the weapon. When it comes to the damage, people in discussions often justify it with things like "If you would see a picture of an arbalest you would know why it would be so powerful", implying that an arbalest is a massive contraption like this one:

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


If so, why dont give a massive weight increase that represents its true form ? Currently a single quiver of arrows ( 10 ) weighs about the same as arb + steel bolts ( 10.3 ).
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: woody on September 30, 2013, 01:29:38 pm
Arabalests are not super slow.

The reload time for a 1 shot kill weapon is fast either in terms of balance or realism.

Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: bavvoz on September 30, 2013, 01:40:28 pm
Its fun to take down hx and ha with arbalest :)
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: RobertOfDrugsley on September 30, 2013, 01:45:15 pm
One thing I dont understand, why do Xbows still get such massive bonuses for looming ? 3 dmg on bolts and another 4 dmg for Xbow at +3.

That always seemed mighty strange to me too.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Gravoth_iii on September 30, 2013, 02:19:44 pm
Dont mind them at all, 15 str 5 IF and around 50 bodyarmour never got oneshot, unless it was in the head ofcourse.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: SirCymro_Crusader on September 30, 2013, 02:33:41 pm
Mount&Crossbow: Ranged Warfare
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Mr.K. on September 30, 2013, 02:38:57 pm
I hate Heavy Crossbows even more. Those things reload too darn fast with a dedicated build and can still oneshot kill light targets.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Prpavi on September 30, 2013, 02:45:03 pm
Buff ranged!
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Nightmare798 on September 30, 2013, 02:46:06 pm
my shield laughs at your crappy bolts!

feel the might of board!

Quote
Buff ranged!

you have a death wish or something?
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Tibe on September 30, 2013, 03:04:49 pm
my shield laughs at your crappy bolts!

feel the might of board!

I wish I could say that. Heavy Cbows and arbalests have a tendency of shooting through my shields, cause my shieldskill lvl is generally 5.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Nightmare798 on September 30, 2013, 03:07:42 pm
I wish I could say that. Heavy Cbows and arbalests have a tendency of shooting through my shields, cause my shieldskill lvl is generally 5.

was happening to me too, untill i have set an objective to go at least 6 shield skill no matter what when i play shielder.

what shields do you use? i use the knights heater shield and they dont go through.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: //saxon on September 30, 2013, 03:11:09 pm
they are fucking mint.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Fartface on September 30, 2013, 03:15:14 pm
The only thing you´ve got to do with your build to become a great crossbowman is sacrifise some WPP of 2hander , what a big loss....
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: karasu on September 30, 2013, 03:16:56 pm
This is becoming chamber of tears material by the minute.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Teeth on September 30, 2013, 03:23:33 pm
I find the practice of moving threads to the Chamber of Tears and the general increasing tendency to describe any discussion on the subject of balance as 'whining' or 'qq' a worrying development as the game simply isn't perfectly balanced and not every comment on that balance is motivated by a 'nerf whatever kills me' mentality.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Grumbs on September 30, 2013, 03:28:29 pm
Its much easier for devs to not look at their own work with a critical eye and simply put negative labels on everyone. If people are simply whiners and QQers they don't have to consider that maybe they aren't perfect devs. This has been going on for ages now. Say anything about ranged balance and you're a melee campaigner "tard". I just think there is a high level of arrogance with the devs here imo
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: karasu on September 30, 2013, 03:37:18 pm
Redundancy at it's finest.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Kafein on September 30, 2013, 04:02:55 pm
Redundancy at it's finest.

Like, he said it twice

Like, he said it twice
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Tibe on September 30, 2013, 04:36:47 pm
was happening to me too, untill i have set an objective to go at least 6 shield skill no matter what when i play shielder.

what shields do you use? i use the knights heater shield and they dont go through.

A dark red Heavy norman shield. But really I wasnt complainin about it. It doesnt take a lot out of your HP when it hits you while having the shield up. The reason my shieldskill is so weak, is because during combat im mainly a shieldless 1h. Im just carrying the shield as an accessory to make me look cooler and cause going in the middle of a battle gamemode shitstorm without a shield or a long weapon is a deathsentence.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Gurnisson on September 30, 2013, 04:38:28 pm
Getting shot while approaching an arbalest guy and go into a fight with him on low hp with him having 8 ath, 5 ps, 50-100 melee wpf and the likes of spathovaklion, mace or military sickle is just scary. :P
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: BlueKnight on September 30, 2013, 05:04:10 pm
A skilled arbalest user can ...
:lol:

Also loading an arbalest when you have ~150WPF takes around 7 seconds. It's not really that much.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Nightmare798 on September 30, 2013, 07:27:05 pm
A dark red Heavy norman shield. But really I wasnt complainin about it. It doesnt take a lot out of your HP when it hits you while having the shield up. The reason my shieldskill is so weak, is because during combat im mainly a shieldless 1h. Im just carrying the shield as an accessory to make me look cooler and cause going in the middle of a battle gamemode shitstorm without a shield or a long weapon is a deathsentence.

oh...
well i guess everything has its ups and downs.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Tom Cruise on September 30, 2013, 07:59:34 pm

Dedicated harassment: Any kind of cavalry unit, especially ranged cavalry, can easily shutdown a crossbow. Nothing is more frustrating in this game then trying to fight a HA or HX with a 70 length short sword on an open plains map.



I hear you are a fan of Top_Gun_Maverick.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Little Lord Lollipop on September 30, 2013, 08:02:08 pm
archers can just run away, turn, shoot, rinse and repeat.

Spoken like someone who doesn't play archer. A dedicated crossbowman will have both a higher athletics skill and less gear weight. It is easy to kite as an xbow, unless you're being pursued by a pure agi infantry.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: njames89 on September 30, 2013, 08:02:56 pm
Late to the thread. But FUARK NERF THESE THINGS
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Nightingale on September 30, 2013, 09:49:55 pm
One thing I dont understand, why do Xbows still get such massive bonuses for looming ? 3 dmg on bolts and another 4 dmg for Xbow at +3.


Crossbows aren't effected by stats that boost damage, like every other weapon in the game.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Grumbs on September 30, 2013, 10:50:25 pm
Isn't it 8% damage from one PS or PD? So 8x7 would be 56% more damage. Why apply that to looms? If you apply the 3 bonus damage of a normal weapon (that does 3 bonus damage say). 20+56% (+11.2) or 23+56% (12.88). Its not such a big bonus on the loom. If you want to buff the damage of Xbows why do it so much in the loomed version?
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Nightingale on October 01, 2013, 12:19:21 am
Whens the last time you used a melee weapon without powerstrike? How often do you do this?

lets say you want to loom a steel pick, but right now you don't have a loomed steel pick. your finished build is 6 powerstrike or whatever and 111 wpf.

31(.67- powerstrike bonus +wpf at level 111)=20.77... 31+20= 51p

congrats you loomed a steel pick

34(.67)=22.78.... 34+22= 56 the difference between the two 5p damage.

+3 arb you gain 4 damage base damage.
+3 steel bolts *separate loom* you gain 3 base damage.

3 lp spent (steel pick) 5p damage difference with 6 PS(average build)
6 lp spent (arb+steel bolts) 7p damage gain.

They aren't buffing it by giving it more damage when you upgrade it with a loom, they are trying to keep it balanced with weapons that have stats that boost its damage anyway.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Phantasmal on October 01, 2013, 12:26:30 am
I think Xynox is asking why they didn't adjust the xbows like the archery equipment, buffing the damage of unloomed items while looming only provides boosts to missile speed, accuracy, etc.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Rebelyell on October 01, 2013, 12:28:07 am
I use 24 15 with 8if

58h 67b 65l
Armor
2/4
Slots
47,717 gold
Cost
3,338 gold

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 visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Grumbs on October 01, 2013, 12:39:57 am
I don't see how +7 pierce equates to +3 pierce (even with +56% damage). Maybe i'm being dense but I don't see it.

If its an attempt to balance the lack of bonus from your build then why apply it in the loomed version and not the normal unloomed version? Spent more loom points? So what, why should they combine for more damage just because you spent money on it?

Why do you even expect a bonus damage when you don't even have to spend points towards using the thing? Bows spend 4-6 points on PD and WPF is much more important. Melee spends points into shields, PS, IF etc just for their melee build. Xbows shouldn't get any bonus at all at any rate without spending points into something
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Nightingale on October 01, 2013, 02:02:00 am
Why do you even expect a bonus damage when you don't even have to spend points towards using the thing? Bows spend 4-6 points on PD and WPF is much more important. Melee spends points into shields, PS, IF etc just for their melee build. Xbows shouldn't get any bonus at all at any rate without spending points into something

I actually agree with you, they need to do something to stop infantry with 1 wpf or low investment to be able to just pick it up and be as effective with it as dedicated builds are. I don't expect bonus damage or any of that. I just want it to be where investing 9 weapon mastery into something actually mean something.


(click to show/hide)

 :lol: that is probably considered an Agility build on NA.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: SMEGMAR on October 01, 2013, 02:17:08 am
Arbalests themselves aren't the problem.
With the 1h stab buff came a massive influx of crossbowmen with 1h swords and kettle hats.
It really hurts me to see half of the people in NA1 dressed this way and suckling on the flavor of the month teat.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: San on October 01, 2013, 02:24:50 am
Whens the last time you used a melee weapon without powerstrike? How often do you do this?

lets say you want to loom a steel pick, but right now you don't have a loomed steel pick. your finished build is 6 powerstrike or whatever and 111 wpf.

31(.67- powerstrike bonus +wpf at level 111)=20.77... 31+20= 51p

congrats you loomed a steel pick

34(.67)=22.78.... 34+22= 56 the difference between the two 5p damage.

+3 arb you gain 4 damage base damage.
+3 steel bolts *separate loom* you gain 3 base damage.

3 lp spent (steel pick) 5p damage difference with 6 PS(average build)
6 lp spent (arb+steel bolts) 7p damage gain.

They aren't buffing it by giving it more damage when you upgrade it with a loom, they are trying to keep it balanced with weapons that have stats that boost its damage anyway.

Even if the steel pick gets a few points extra raw damage (MW steel pick 6PS 111 wpf I calculated to be 54.7, could be wrong), doesn't the xbow have extra penetration to armor? If so, then 54.7 raw pierce damage is slightly worse than 51p extra penetration damage, close to a +0 hunting xbow and +0 steel bolts.

It's possible for a 7PS 130wpf +3 steel pick user with very good speed bonus and a perfect hold + head hit to reach a +3arbalest +3 steel bolts (100p but ~111p raw damage without extra penetration) amount of damage in one hit, though. +3 Crossbow and +3 steel bolts and up are all more damage than decent 7PS +3 steel pick held strikes that hit the head.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Lord_Bernie_of_Voodoo on October 01, 2013, 03:05:05 am

1h swords and kettle hats.

Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Phew on October 01, 2013, 07:05:58 pm
kettle hats.

I agree, Kettle Hats are totally OP and ruining the game.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 02, 2013, 01:05:28 am
Really, you move my thread on the opinion of throwing lances but not this one?
EVIL MODERATORS! :evil:
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on October 02, 2013, 01:39:03 am
For the reload speed they are fine

And they require skill with 200+ ping :D
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Kafein on October 02, 2013, 09:27:59 am
Isn't it 8% damage from one PS or PD? So 8x7 would be 56% more damage.

whyiseverybodyelseterribleatmath

Applying +8% seven times is the equivalent of 1,08^7 ~ 171% unless the game is intentionally misleading that is.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Xant on October 02, 2013, 10:01:02 am
grumbs = errbody else
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Paul on October 02, 2013, 10:08:25 am
I don't see how +7 pierce equates to +3 pierce (even with +56% damage). Maybe i'm being dense but I don't see it.

If its an attempt to balance the lack of bonus from your build then why apply it in the loomed version and not the normal unloomed version? Spent more loom points? So what, why should they combine for more damage just because you spent money on it?

Why do you even expect a bonus damage when you don't even have to spend points towards using the thing? Bows spend 4-6 points on PD and WPF is much more important. Melee spends points into shields, PS, IF etc just for their melee build. Xbows shouldn't get any bonus at all at any rate without spending points into something

You are right. We will increase the damage of archery looms again.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Strudog on October 02, 2013, 10:25:24 am
whyiseverybodyelseterribleatmaths

Applying +8% seven times is the equivalent of 1,08^7 ~ 171% unless the game is intentionally misleading that is.

Maths not fucking Math, stop being lazy
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Kafein on October 02, 2013, 10:55:33 am
Maths not fucking Math, stop being lazy

It's mathematics, not mathsematics. Nor mathsemantics or anything else.

grumbs = errbody else

Errbody else : emotionally sufficient part of the events I notice to call them a rule. Respect my cognitive biases !
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Grumbs on October 02, 2013, 12:29:04 pm
You are right. We will increase the damage of archery looms again.

I know you're trying to be funny but i meant the bonus from PD. Xbows shouldnt expect bonus damage just because archers do, archers get the damage from sacrificing points from other parts of their build. The loom changes for archery were a good change except for the fact that a bunch of other stats were buffed at the same time for some bows. Plus it resulted in a huge boom in archers on the servers as a random STF was suddenly doing as much damage as someone who spent 6 loom points into his class.

Balancing around looms should be a last ditch effort to control the amount and strength of ranged though. Its a super lazy way to do it with other real options available and it gives too much power to guys with money, and takes power away from guys that are new to the game and will be at a disadvantage anyway. A real way to limit ranged would be to increase their disadvantages while still rewarding skilled use of the class. Make them rely on teamwork more, make each shot count more, make strong counters to the classes or make people sacrifice other things in their build to use ranged effectively. Archers already have a bunch of these elements that xbows should have.

I do think people should be rewarded a bit for getting looms though. It adds a dimension to the game that some people need to keep an incentive to play. I would still give a couple extra points of damage to archers for looms, but reduce base damage on unloomed gear to compensate. +1 damage on arrows and +1 damage on the bow would be fine. Same for xbows and same for weapons but you only have 3 stats  so i'd do for eg a swinging weapon +1 swing, +1 stab, then +1 speed. TBH this could be done in a few ways.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: oreshy on October 02, 2013, 03:19:33 pm
For the reload speed they are fine


& for 15 str. ..2 slot's too.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: 722_ on October 02, 2013, 07:53:41 pm


& for 15 str. ..2 slot's too.

Plus 1.3k upkeep
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Vodner on October 02, 2013, 09:49:19 pm
Applying +8% seven times is the equivalent of 1,08^7 ~ 171% unless the game is intentionally misleading that is.
Powerstrike does not multiplicatively self-stack (but the bonus damage from powerstrike does stack multiplicatively with other sources of bonus damage, except for the strength bonus).

e: Same goes for power draw.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Kafein on October 02, 2013, 10:10:03 pm
Powerstrike does not multiplicatively self-stack (but the bonus damage from powerstrike does stack multiplicatively with other sources of bonus damage, except for the strength bonus).

That's the kind of things I would expect to be spelled out by TW :s
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: San on October 02, 2013, 10:52:42 pm
raw_damage *= power_strike * 0.08 + 1.0

Can't get simpler than that. PD is 14% but has a lot of limitations. PT is 10%. For melee weapons, +3 damage is quite a bit more than 1 PS (except at high cut damage). +7 damage is quite large.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on October 02, 2013, 10:56:52 pm
fuck maths and mechanics mega bullshit.  spell it out for the layman taleworlds!!

WILL THIS MAKE MY HORSE GO VROOM OR NOT  :evil:

WILL THIS MAKE MY BOW GO PEW OR NOT  :evil:

WILL THIS MAKE MY CLUB GO BANG OR NOT  :evil:
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: ROHYPNOL on October 29, 2013, 07:43:06 pm
As an arbalest user for roughly 16 gens, I would not mind seeing some sort of damage reduction to them (as long as they internally balanced the crossbows along with it). Their only drawback as of now is the extremely long reload speed (which can be mitigated efficiently with enough wpf). The arb becomes god-like on city maps when you can avoid any form of cavalry by standing on a building. But I will say this, it is extremely easy to shutdown any crossbow user unlike other ranged.

Rain: I don't mind the damage reduction, my biggest complaint is the significant effect on missile speed which completely throws off anyone's aim. I usually take a pure melee loadout whenever it rains on the server.

Dedicated harassment: Any kind of cavalry unit, especially ranged cavalry, can easily shutdown a crossbow. Nothing is more frustrating in this game then trying to fight a HA or HX with a 70 length short sword on an open plains map. Non-ranged cav can just keep you occupied until infantry arrives. Melee can harass you if they get close too and prevent a reload while archers can just run away, turn, shoot, rinse and repeat.

Edit: In terms of an average raw DPS, a dedicated archer would probably be more efficient as well.

You are saying what "can" happen when most of the time you know what actually does happen. Standing behind a tree, on a hill, or just any spot that no one can find you, continually hiding and reloading

picking people off one by one, "usually the better players". Shooting 100 pierce weapons all the way across the map that does more damage than throwing lances, with way better aim at that. Did I mention

that anyone can pick them up. Shits op as fuck bro. Lets cut the b/s here.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: MURDERTRON on October 29, 2013, 09:21:03 pm
Once a crossbowmen goes and runs into the ruins, which are on every map besides random_plains, none of that crap Phantasmal wrote matters anymore.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: Torost on October 30, 2013, 01:32:47 am
The arbalest is an abomination that should be burned.

No need for arguments anymore, it is futile.
It is hard to imagine the unbalancers ideas on crossbows in this game, and why they are even in the mod.

However. a small change that does not really change anything, but makes the arbalester atleast easier to kill once you catch him, :

Make Steel Bolts use 2 slots!

This would limit them to using 0slot 1handers and 0slot shield.

Or use regular bolts with lesser damage.
Title: Re: Your Opinion on Arbalests
Post by: korppis on October 30, 2013, 09:02:35 am
Xbows were made to penetrate heavier armors, but apparently it isn't possible to implement properly in warband. Or the only way to make it penetrate armors is to give it so ridicilously high damage that is exceeds the soak value of armor. Sadly this also makes it the awp of this game, one shotting everything with 50 or less armor, even if it hits only in the toe.

Imho it should rather do a more fixed amount of damage (like 40 or so), by pretty much ignoring the armor. Would be nice if you could set different soak values to armors on weapon basis, not just damage type.