cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => The Chamber of Tears => Topic started by: Ikarus on September 21, 2013, 03:34:51 pm

Title: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Ikarus on September 21, 2013, 03:34:51 pm
Just a random crpg QQ thread bout range

eu1 this afternoon
(click to show/hide)

my nightmares about this game have become true

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Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: YnScN on September 21, 2013, 03:55:06 pm
This post belongs to Chamber of Tears.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: pingpong on September 21, 2013, 03:56:59 pm
i only see 5 my old friendchers + 1 HA and me running from 2 melees  :) , hardly anything to worry about, i've seen worse..
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Tibe on September 21, 2013, 03:59:43 pm
(click to show/hide)
Not exactly the best picture to describe the rangedspam.... Saw like a few and the kills shown on screen were mostly but one meleekills.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Gurnisson on September 21, 2013, 04:09:46 pm
i only see 5 my old friendchers + 1 HA

I see 7 archers and 2 HA.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Digglez on September 21, 2013, 04:22:38 pm
get a decent shield & throwing.  MW throwing daggers rape archers
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Gravoth_iii on September 21, 2013, 04:26:22 pm
Just a random crpg QQ thread bout range

eu1 this afternoon
(click to show/hide)

my nightmares about this game have become true

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Hey you play your crossbowman a lot aswell, you also add to the ranged!
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Chris_the_Animal on September 21, 2013, 04:40:37 pm
8 Archers, 4 Melees, 2 HA and one Lancer-Cav

 :wink:
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Nightmare798 on September 21, 2013, 04:51:52 pm
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Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Corsair831 on September 21, 2013, 05:29:45 pm
lol, that's a bit biased, i could take a picture of the melee part of the battle and say "oMhgzors, there are 25 infantry and 1 ranged player !!11!!" 

:P
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Latvian on September 21, 2013, 05:41:28 pm
lol, that's a bit biased, i could take a picture of the melee part of the battle and say "oMhgzors, there are 25 infantry and 1 ranged player !!11!!" 

:P
i dont see "ranged" in Mount&blade: Warband
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Ikarus on September 21, 2013, 05:44:39 pm
"Chamber of Tears"? Lol, didn´t know about that section   :mrgreen:

Quote
lol, that's a bit biased, i could take a picture of the melee part of the battle and say "oMhgzors, there are 25 infantry and 1 ranged player !!11!!"
you weren´t there, there were more of them but they didn´t fit all into one screenshot

Hey you play your crossbowman a lot aswell, you also add to the ranged!
if you can´t fight them, join them :P Hm, but I think it´s the best time to try a shield-thrower now, wanted to try that anyways >:3
still, I actually wanted to try out some cav moves today on eu1, but since my horse got shot down in no time every round, there was no chance to try anything out ;P

Also, since were in the chamber of tears here, I´ll take my chance: I want melee-server back!
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Sniger on September 21, 2013, 06:48:53 pm
you should clarify that its the AMOUNT of them and not the class itself... unless you think the class itself is OP but then id call you noob and tell you to adapt... :p

but yeah... that picture is priceless. in a month or so ill upload one, just with cav instead of range
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Chasey on September 21, 2013, 06:50:28 pm
I counts 11
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Ikarus on September 21, 2013, 07:26:40 pm
you should clarify that its the AMOUNT of them and not the class itself...
Mmmmmhtrue, you got a point there; seems as if you don´t have Gyro Gearloose as an avatar for nothing :)

I guess it´s just one of these times where one class is a bit more often played than others, there were also times where ppl played a lot of cav or hoplite or HA...
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Grumbs on September 21, 2013, 08:37:56 pm
An indie dev team with a small playerbase is trying to drive off their melee players when they have a game called "Melee" coming up. Genius
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Akynos on September 21, 2013, 09:32:10 pm
add class balance and all this will be fixed.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Corsair831 on September 22, 2013, 07:04:02 pm
add class balance and all this will be fixed.

you can never fix QQ in cRPG, it is written.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Ikarus on September 22, 2013, 07:32:20 pm
but you can add a melee server for people who prefer fighting melee
especially when there already was a melee server
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Sharpe on September 23, 2013, 01:27:43 am
you can never fix QQ in cRPG, it is written it is known.

Fixed
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Kafein on September 23, 2013, 09:54:03 am
lol, that's a bit biased, i could take a picture of the melee part of the battle and say "oMhgzors, there are 25 infantry and 1 ranged player !!11!!" 

:P

Melee classes aren't a pain to deal with
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: karasu on September 24, 2013, 02:55:45 am
but you can add a melee server for people who prefer fighting melee
especially when there already was a melee server

And yet, it was empty most of the time.

As a melee player I found the lack of immersion on that server very disturbing.  :?
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Adamar on September 24, 2013, 12:45:39 pm
Melee classes aren't a pain to deal with

Play the game. There's not much you can do when the rolfstomp melee train comes down on you. There's no way you can 'take couver' or 'dodge' out of that situation, skill is completely denied.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Kafein on September 24, 2013, 03:32:13 pm
Play the game. There's not much you can do when the rolfstomp melee train comes down on you. There's no way you can 'take couver' or 'dodge' out of that situation, skill is completely denied.

I don't know... maybe use an actual non-imaginary skill like, block better ?
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Prpavi on September 24, 2013, 03:41:18 pm
end of the round the other day, throwers had their field day lol, last 11 kills on the map due to ranged

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Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Adamar on September 24, 2013, 08:22:33 pm
I don't know... maybe use an actual non-imaginary skill like, block better ?

Against several melee around you? Now that's imagination.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 24, 2013, 08:26:39 pm
I don't like archers on the enemy team, but I like them on my team.

Pretty sure most people throughout history felt the same way...only they couldn't cry to the developers to fix it. 

Put on your big boy pants and deal with it.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Gurnisson on September 24, 2013, 08:48:26 pm
Against several melee around you? Now that's imagination.

Force them to glance on each other with footwork. Keep an enemy between the rest of the pack. Target-switch.

A lot of possibilities!
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Adamar on September 24, 2013, 08:49:12 pm
Ah, I personaly have no real footwork as of now.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 24, 2013, 09:22:23 pm
Force them to glance on each other with footwork. Keep an enemy between the rest of the pack. Target-switch.

A lot of possibilities!

I enjoy fighting against 2 or 3 people just as much (or better) than fighting 1 guy.  When fighting multiple people they open themselves up for getting hit much easier if you switch targets often.  Keep moving forward and around in semi-circles.  Also if you're around a group of 10+ enemies and have a shield you can keep your block up most of the time (still want to swing when you get a chance) and the enemy usually does a lot of damage to themselves if you keep moving forward and circle around strategically.

But if I didn't have a shield (and didn't get better at manual blocking) I would get destroyed 1v3+ situations most likely.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Nordwolf on September 24, 2013, 11:05:35 pm
For me it's usually easier to fight 1v2 or even 1v3, there are a lot of techniques that are mostly unavalaible when 1v1.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: YnScN on September 24, 2013, 11:21:57 pm
For me it's usually easier to fight 1v2 or even 1v3, there are a lot of techniques that are mostly unavalaible when 1v1.

spam?
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Kafein on September 25, 2013, 12:52:19 am
Against several melee around you? Now that's imagination.

No. Just click and move the right way and you'll survive with 100% certainty. With projectiles there's not really a "right" and a "wrong" way to do things. You can always be unlucky and get shot no matter what you do.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Adamar on September 25, 2013, 04:24:35 am
No. Just click and move the right way and you'll survive with 100% certainty. With projectiles there's not really a "right" and a "wrong" way to do things. You can always be unlucky and get shot no matter what you do.

That's what your very limited experience tells you. And you can't move the right way with melee if you have no speed, or once they are all around you. It's what happens at the end of the round.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Xant on September 25, 2013, 05:32:17 am
O Friends, Friends! Cease your argumentation! Arrest your vitriolics! Abandon your discord! For I shall resolve the issue for you forthwith. Ho! And on such a fine day!

Adamar is wrong.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Ikarus on September 25, 2013, 08:52:36 am
if you got more than two enemies facing you, try to "crowd dive", run into the group and run around between them, focusing on blocking and only barely attacking, they mostly hit each other then (never kick in a crowd, takes too much time). Yeh, and you also need some luck when you do that  :(

anyways, back to topic
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Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Kafein on September 25, 2013, 09:36:49 am
That's what your very limited experience tells you. And you can't move the right way with melee if you have no speed, or once they are all around you. It's what happens at the end of the round.

So you are saying to me, that there is some magic dodging sequence as effective as blocking that is discovered after more than 3000 hours of playtime ? Seems legit. Or maybe you are implying I'm a noob at melee ? You are confusing me now.

A good player can fight alone against several enemies in melee simultaneously. Winning isn't even that difficult and if you barely know how to block you can already survive and give them a very hard time.  Against two archers, shieldless infantry gets obliterated in less than five seconds, and shielders die of kiteflu anyway.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Fartface on September 25, 2013, 10:04:36 am
I´m 24 STR 18 AGI high lvl shielder , I can take on 4-5 melee at the same time but 2 archers will kite the living fuck out of me. I'm just as useless when the big archery roflstomp comes over as how useless you are when the melee rolfstomp comes over. ( well maybe not as useless as you , but I'm trying!)
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Teeth on September 25, 2013, 11:44:55 am
If 5 guys come to gank you, all it takes is one slightly competent support polearmer in that group and you are completely fucked regardless of how pro you pretend to be on the forum. Unless you have some shitty 9 athlethics build.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Fartface on September 25, 2013, 12:28:01 pm
If 5 guys come to gank you, all it takes is one slightly competent support polearmer in that group and you are completely fucked regardless of how pro you pretend to be on the forum. Unless you have some shitty 9 athlethics build.
It all depends on the situation and who is ganking at me , but I was just making the point that melee fucks over archers in big numbers  but 2 archers can nearly always fuck me over. Or atleast be unkilleable by me. And ye I used to have a shitty 9 ATH 9 Shield build :mrgreen:
EDIT: Forgot to mention that I'm a shielder and I can't do shit , so imagen how a 2hander or Polearmer would do in that situation.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Xant on September 25, 2013, 12:50:54 pm
If 5 guys come to gank you, all it takes is one slightly competent support polearmer in that group and you are completely fucked regardless of how pro you pretend to be on the forum. Unless you have some shitty 9 athlethics build.
Nope.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Teeth on September 25, 2013, 12:58:31 pm
It all depends on the situation and who is ganking at me , but I was just making the point that melee fucks over archers in big numbers  but 2 archers can nearly always fuck me over. Or atleast be unkilleable by me. And ye I used to have a shitty 9 ATH 9 Shield build :mrgreen:
EDIT: Forgot to mention that I'm a shielder and I can't do shit , so imagen how a 2hander or Polearmer would do in that situation.
Exactly, you can all state how you can fight a gank and win or something, but that really only works if they are all incompetent or you are very lucky. Good luck fighting a gank which contains me as a piker who jumpstabs you in the face from way behind the other gankers whenever you try to do anything but downblock. For every gank where you manage to do well, there are 5 ganks where you just get fucked regardless of your skill. So stop being all snabby at poor Adamar who is right, because you guys are just full of shit.

Same with two archers. Two shit archers are no problem, two good archers are. Hell last time I played I saw Pawiu win a round on his own against 5 archers, one of them being Steevee who was on a 20/1 k/d, as a heavy armour polearmer by getting very lucky and being mad sneaky.

Nope.
You barely play and yet you are full of shit. You are not that good Xant, face it you scrub.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Fartface on September 25, 2013, 01:04:22 pm
Exactly, you can all state how you can fight a gank and win or something, but that really only works if they are all incompetent or you are very lucky. Good luck fighting a gank which contains me as a piker who jumpstabs you in the face from way behind the other gankers whenever you try to do anything but downblock. For every gank where you manage to do well, there are 5 ganks where you just get fucked regardless of your skill. So stop being all snabby at poor Adamar who is right, because you guys are just full of shit.

Same with two archers. Two shit archers are no problem, two good archers are. Hell last time I played I saw Pawiu win a round on his own against 5 archers, one of them being Steevee who was on a 20/1 k/d, as a heavy armour polearmer by getting very lucky and being mad sneaky.
You barely play and yet you are full of shit. You are not that good Xant, face it you scrub.
I state a situation of me beating alot of people in a gank as an example, and you call it lucky. Then you make an example yourself with archers and you say he was lucky to , what is your point? Not to mention mostly the realy good players are KD whores who will teamwound an entire team just to get that one kill on the scoreboard , and it's people like that that enable you to very easily beat ganks because they open there allies up for attacks.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Teeth on September 25, 2013, 01:09:48 pm
I state a situation of me beating alot of people in a gank as an example, and you call it lucky. Then you make an example yourself with archers and you say he was lucky to , what is your point?
That it all depends on getting lucky and which players you face, and that you nor Xant will consistently beat a 5 man gank or lose against 2 archers. It's not like you can't do anything against multiple archers and it's not like you have all the chances in the world to beat a melee gank. That is the distinction that is being made here which I find bullshit.

mostly the realy good players are KD whores who will teamwound an entire team just to get that one kill on the scoreboard
Guess you and I have a different definition of really good players.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Fartface on September 25, 2013, 01:17:38 pm
That it all depends on getting lucky and which players you face, and that you nor Xant will consistently beat a 5 man gank or lose against 2 archers. It's not like you can't do anything against multiple archers and it's not like you have all the chances in the world to beat a melee gank. That is the distinction that is being made here which I find bullshit.
Guess you and I have a different definition of really good players.
By saying I would rather fight 5 players in a melee gank rather then 2 archers kiting me , I was just trying to make the point that archers can steamroll over melee just as hard as melee can steamroll over the ranged. Also I ment to do ''realy good players'' but I forgot to do it like that, by realy good players I mean the players at the top of the scoreboard constantly hungering for kills and to jerk off to there KD.

Play the game. There's not much you can do when the rolfstomp melee train comes down on you. There's no way you can 'take couver' or 'dodge' out of that situation, skill is completely denied.
I was just trying to make the point that this works the other way aswel, and to do so I made examples and set the amount of melee higher than the amount of ranged fighting me simple to state archers are harder to deal with.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Xant on September 25, 2013, 01:21:48 pm
You barely play and yet you are full of shit. You are not that good Xant, face it you scrub.
My not playing has no relevance. And I'm godlike; indeed, I transcend your skill definitions and do the impossible, beating 5v1 odds when the opposition has a slightly competent support polearmer.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Fartface on September 25, 2013, 01:25:35 pm
My not playing has no relevance. And I'm godlike; indeed, I transcend your skill definitions and do the impossible, beating 5v1 odds when the opposition has a slightly competent support polearmer.
Id quote this if my pictures aren't so goddarn good looking.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Xant on September 25, 2013, 01:30:26 pm
Yes, I begin to question my sexual orientation just looking at it.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Fartface on September 25, 2013, 01:36:04 pm
Yes, I begin to question my sexual orientation just looking at it.
That's the trick,  I'm secrely awekening the homosexual side of the player in cRPG. Most of them shoot Bow&Arrows so they might aswel just be a full homosexual.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Fartface on September 25, 2013, 01:36:37 pm
Yes, I begin to question my sexual orientation just looking at it.
Also new quote!
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: RobertOfDrugsley on September 25, 2013, 02:47:55 pm
This belongs in the Chamber of Dating, not in the Chamber of Tears!
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Xant on September 25, 2013, 02:59:27 pm
I'm pretty sure George is still jailbait.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Fartface on September 25, 2013, 03:00:49 pm
I'm pretty sure George is still jailbait.
I might actualy just be a realy handsome undercover FBI agent , send to gaming communities to arrest pedophiles.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Gurnisson on September 25, 2013, 05:17:06 pm
If 5 guys come to gank you, all it takes is one slightly competent support polearmer in that group and you are completely fucked regardless of how pro you pretend to be on the forum.

I call bullshit on that one. Support guys definitely makes it harder (especially hoplites), but "completely fucked" is way off the mark.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Molly on September 25, 2013, 05:56:00 pm
I call bullshit on that one. Support guys definitely makes it harder (especially hoplites), but "completely fucked" is way off the mark.
2 guys are even enough - polearm spams the poke, 2h or 1h spams overhead... sooner or later you gonna die.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 25, 2013, 05:58:37 pm
But you can run away or circle them so they can't both reach at the same time.  It's certainly challenging, but not impossible by any stretch.  Two guys with pokey polearms can keep you blocking indefinitely if they time their swings right too (one swings, then the other, taking turns).  But they are not unbeatable by any stretch...all about positioning
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Jona on September 25, 2013, 06:30:46 pm
But you can run away or circle them so they can't both reach at the same time.  It's certainly challenging, but not impossible by any stretch.  Two guys with pokey polearms can keep you blocking indefinitely if they time their swings right too (one swings, then the other, taking turns).  But they are not unbeatable by any stretch...all about positioning

^ This.

Sometimes I am glad when a longspearman / pikeman joins the fray... I just circle around the 2 until one is getting stabbed in the back all the time and therefore unable to block / easy to kill. Then the lone polearm is nearly helpless. They key is to walk in such a way that the spearman (who is naturally going to be further away) is directly behind his ally. Keep that 1h, 2h, other polearmer between you 2. and u will be golden. The only time this fails is when the wonky spear stabs you right though the other guy... nothing more annoying than closing in for a good swing, only to get stabbed in the face by a spear that sprouted from your enemy's chest.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Adamar on September 25, 2013, 10:29:44 pm
So you are saying to me, that there is some magic dodging sequence as effective as blocking that is discovered after more than 3000 hours of playtime ? Seems legit. Or maybe you are implying I'm a noob at melee ? You are confusing me now.

A good player can fight alone against several enemies in melee simultaneously. Winning isn't even that difficult and if you barely know how to block you can already survive and give them a very hard time.  Against two archers, shieldless infantry gets obliterated in less than five seconds, and shielders die of kiteflu anyway.

It's not magic, it's experience and tenacity.
You only dodge when the archer is about to release the arrow.
-You are run in one direction to make the archer aim there,
-then imediately turn in the other direction when the bow is fully drawn, to make the archer turn there quickly, which opens the reticule,
-then turn again and this point the archer will either shoot in the wrong direction or miss because the reticule will be too open if he tries to catch up.

That's it, no need for fancy stuff or breakdancing when you should be running down the archer. This is the one sequence you should know by now if you and people like you bothered learn about all aspects of the game in your more than 3000 hours of playtime.

And guys, you can't run around a melee group if you have no speed.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Sharpe on September 25, 2013, 10:33:42 pm
It's not magic, it's experience and tenacity.
You only dodge when the archer is about to release the arrow.
-You are run in one direction to make the archer aim there,
-then imediately turn in the other direction when the bow is fully drawn, to make the archer turn there quickly, which opens the reticule,
-then turn again and this point the archer will either shoot in the wrong direction or miss because the reticule will be too open if he tries to catch up.



It works about 75% of the time, if its an experienced archer they will be expecting this and try and predict where youre going to be when you serpentine; or theyll wait till youre close. Many times Ive waited  till the person is 2 feet away and kinda flick my mouse when I shoot; pure luck but it works most of the time. When it doesnt work; I know that I was at least ballsy enough to try it.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Jona on September 25, 2013, 10:48:09 pm
When it doesnt work; I know that I was at least ballsy enough to try it.


Heh, ballsy and archer don't belong in the same sentence.   :wink:



(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: XyNox on September 25, 2013, 10:55:00 pm
It's not magic, it's experience and tenacity.
You only dodge when the archer is about to release the arrow.
-You are run in one direction to make the archer aim there,
-then imediately turn in the other direction when the bow is fully drawn, to make the archer turn there quickly, which opens the reticule,
-then turn again and this point the archer will either shoot in the wrong direction or miss because the reticule will be too open if he tries to catch up.

That's it, no need for fancy stuff or breakdancing when you should be running down the archer. This is the one sequence you should know by now if you and people like you bothered learn about all aspects of the game in your more than 3000 hours of playtime.

And guys, you can't run around a melee group if you have no speed.

Adamar you stupid my old friendcher ! Stop teaching the scrubs how to dodge ...
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Sharpe on September 25, 2013, 11:01:30 pm

Heh, ballsy and archer don't belong in the same sentence.   :wink:



(click to show/hide)

Low blow man Low Blow. The my old friendcher is a highly respected class, or so I'd like to think.   :D
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Adamar on September 25, 2013, 11:02:26 pm
Adamar you stupid my old friendcher ! Stop teaching the scrubs how to dodge ...

They insist its impossible, make the devs feel guilty like bad parents, and we get fucked anyway.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Xant on September 26, 2013, 04:27:27 am
No matter what you do, dodging projectiles is still always about luck. You could make the most Matrix dodge moves ever and still get hit if you're against someone who a) predicted it or b) was going to miss you before you dodged.

What makes ranged so gay in this mod is the randomness. Nobody would play a FPS where you had single-shot guns that had massive crosshairs and it was random if you hit or not. But for some reason people want to play these luck-archers in a game with the best melee.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: XyNox on September 26, 2013, 05:18:18 am
No matter what you do, dodging projectiles is still always about luck. You could make the most Matrix dodge moves ever and still get hit if you're against someone who a) predicted it or b) was going to miss you before you dodged.

What makes ranged so gay in this mod is the randomness. Nobody would play a FPS where you had single-shot guns that had massive crosshairs and it was random if you hit or not. But for some reason people want to play these luck-archers in a game with the best melee.

At very high missile speeds and very short distances, luck is involved to a certain degree of course. When a missile takes less time to reach you than human reaction time actually allows you to act, it depends on how well you predicted the enemy shot. Understanding what goes on inside the mind of the shooter helps to lower the chance of being hit tremendously though, especially at long and medium distances. As an archer I have to do it all the time and it works fine, even with 5 metric tons of arrows on my body.

The thing is, when it comes to ranged, most melees dont have that experience and thereby cant tell within wich limitations a ranged player has to predict his shots, which in turn does not allow them to counter those predictions properly. The average melee doesnt have that sort of experience because knowing how to write "omg stooped my old friendcher nerf" in chat and mashing mouse1 and mouse2 on EU3 is all they need to consider themselves pro players which are god at the game and everything that kills them is bullshit.

I am not even trying to be cynical or offensive but from my experience this is simply the case. People cant be arsed to "learn" anything new after they learned how to block, feint and use footwork. When somebody would come in here and claimed that blocking in this game is bullshit because its way to hard and is mostly luck, hell, he would get minusbombed to the moon, through the sun and then back to earth again. However, when somebody sais that dodging is a skill on its own that can be mastered to a certain degree, people go "ullululululu can I haz magic dodge machine ? ululllululu". I know exactly what Adamar is talking about in his post.

Regarding the randomness, since the last patch at least bows offer more consistent accuracy now. A nomad bow is pretty much as accurate as it can get but pays with a hefty damage penalty. At 6 PD even archers can survive headshots. Cant speak for Xbows.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Xant on September 26, 2013, 06:17:02 am
Of course you can dodge most archers for some time by moving unpredictably - probably. That's just the thing, it doesn't matter how good you are "at dodging", it still ultimately comes down to pure chance. And the probability of getting hit randomly increases as time goes by. Not so with melee: you will only get hit if you make a mistake.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Adamar on September 26, 2013, 08:59:55 am
Or if you have more than one person taking different swings at you at the same time. Archers do have to aim at their targets, Im not sure how chance plays into that.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Molly on September 26, 2013, 09:36:56 am
Of course you can dodge most archers for some time by moving unpredictably - probably. That's just the thing, it doesn't matter how good you are "at dodging", it still ultimately comes down to pure chance. And the probability of getting hit randomly increases the smaller the distance to the shooter. Not so with melee: you will only get hit if you make a mistake.
ftfy.
Time has no factor in this.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Xant on September 26, 2013, 10:26:10 am
Really? So you are as likely to be hit in ten shots as you are in one shot? The probability never increases?

Time = shots fired.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Adamar on September 26, 2013, 10:46:51 am
And time is also on your side, so it's not really relevant.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Xant on September 26, 2013, 10:58:16 am
What.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: XyNox on September 26, 2013, 03:07:55 pm
Really? So you are as likely to be hit in ten shots as you are in one shot? The probability never increases?

Time = shots fired.

Well benkei is right with the distance. You can take 100 shots at me and I will dodge every single one of them if those are long range shots, maybe even medium range, depending on how my reaction time is in that moment.

E: Sorry Zlisch for saying that benkei is right but its teh truths.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Xant on September 26, 2013, 03:11:21 pm
Well bekei is right with the distance. You can take 100 shots at me and I will dodge every single one of them if those are long range shots, maybe even medium range, depending on how my reaction time is in that moment.
How would you know you'd dodge every single one of them?
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: XyNox on September 26, 2013, 03:18:40 pm
How would you know you'd dodge every single one of them?

Well, this is where said experience comes into play I was mentioning earlier. I will refrain from giving away any details on how my dodging techniques work. Since this sounds like a cheap excuse though I have no problem showing it on EU3 if anyone thinks proof is needed. Just keep in mind I said "long" distance. I dont want to create the impression that I can dodge 100% at 5 meters.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Gurnisson on September 26, 2013, 03:22:52 pm
dodge plan

A good plan against 1 ranged, now add a few more. Keeping track of draw speeds and the release of several ranged is impossible. You can call dodging one or two archers skillful, but any more than that and we're talking chance and the difference between bad and good ranged.

I rarely move my reticule when I shoot infantry as ranged, waiting for the infantry to spazz towards the crosshair which often grants an easy headshot.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: XyNox on September 26, 2013, 04:00:15 pm
A good plan against 1 ranged, now add a few more. Keeping track of draw speeds and the release of several ranged is impossible. You can call dodging one or two archers skillful, but any more than that and we're talking chance and the difference between bad and good ranged.

Who sais dodging 3 ranged at once should be easy ? It is already 3 people from one team who are occupied to do nothing else than attacking you. If you could easily walk through 3 ranged without being hit the game would be even more silly than now.

I rarely move my reticule when I shoot infantry as ranged, waiting for the infantry to spazz towards the crosshair which often grants an easy headshot.

Which, the infantry player would know and predict of course if he had a bit ranged experience himself.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Gurnisson on September 26, 2013, 04:04:30 pm
Who sais dodging 3 ranged at once should be easy ? It is already 3 people from one team who are occupied to do nothing else than attacking you. If you could easily walk through 3 ranged without being hit the game would be even more silly than now.

I didn't say it, Adamar hinted towards being ganked by ranged is preferable to being ganked by melee, and he stated that a melee gank was insta-loss because you have no opportunity to dodge or take cover.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Molly on September 26, 2013, 05:40:00 pm
Really? So you are as likely to be hit in ten shots as you are in one shot? The probability never increases?

Time = shots fired.
Yes. The probability to get hit is roughly the same for every single shot when shot by the same archer alone and the distance stays the same. In that situation time is irrelevant.
The things that matter are the amount of archer and the distance to them.
I wasn't arguing the whole statement, merely the use of "time" wasn't correct. That's all.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Adamar on September 26, 2013, 05:41:33 pm
I didn't say it, Adamar hinted towards being ganked by ranged is preferable to being ganked by melee, and he stated that a melee gank was insta-loss because you have no opportunity to dodge or take cover.

You can't. They run you down, surround you and spam, if you're slower.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Xant on September 26, 2013, 05:49:16 pm
Yes. The probability to get hit is roughly the same for every single shot when shot by the same archer alone and the distance stays the same. In that situation time is irrelevant.
The things that matter are the amount of archer and the distance to them.
I wasn't arguing the whole statement, merely the use of "time" wasn't correct. That's all.
So if you flip a coin ten times the probability it lands heads ten times is 50%?
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 26, 2013, 06:00:49 pm
I didn't think there was going to be math on the test today, but I'd say the probability of each flip is 50% chance of landing on heads or tails, that doesn't mean that there's a 50% chance of it landing on heads 10 times...

But then again maybe that is the same thing I've said both times...I'm not a math nerd, and this is a vidya game forum.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Xant on September 26, 2013, 06:06:00 pm
Yes, and when you apply that to the archer-and-getting hit problem what happens? Does time (=shots fired) affect the probability of getting hit?
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 26, 2013, 06:13:06 pm
What the fuck man...just what the fuck...

Fine I took the time to read what you wrote...and I think it's obvious the answer is no.  It doesn't lower your probability of being hit the more the archer shoots.  It probably raises the probability (but not due to the amount of shots being fired, just that you're closer to the archer which makes it easier to hit people zigzagging).  But after you get SO close, the probability of being hit is probably 0 if he can't pull the bow string back in time...

Are we done with the math test for today?  Can we go back to making fun of people crying about archers (or any class)?
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Gurnisson on September 26, 2013, 06:27:03 pm
You can't. They run you down, surround you and spam, if you're slower.

You're bad
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Moncho on September 26, 2013, 06:34:16 pm
Yes, and when you apply that to the archer-and-getting hit problem what happens? Does time (=shots fired) affect the probability of getting hit?

What is wrong with your argument is that you are using it for ranged but not melee:

Of course you can dodge most archers for some time by moving unpredictably - probably. That's just the thing, it doesn't matter how good you are "at dodging", it still ultimately comes down to pure chance. And the probability of getting hit randomly increases as time goes by. Not so with melee: you will only get hit if you make a mistake.
TL;DR: The bold part. Same way as with archery it starts with the amount of shots fired, so does it with the amount of melee weapon attacks realised. 

All that is below is nothing but a fancy way of saying that no matter what, you are eventually going to get hit because nobody is perfect, be it by luck, be it by tiredness (which is not mentioned but tends to lower your chance of blocking a particular hit which lowers the chance overall).

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Xant on September 26, 2013, 07:00:42 pm
What is wrong with your argument is that you are using it for ranged but not melee
Because melee has no random factor. As said, you only get hit if you make a mistake. Getting hit by ranged depends more on what the archer does and the random chance created by flight time and large crosshair.

As for your math, it's correct in theory, but your probabilities are way off. Going with 95%, there's only a 57% chance of blocking ten hits in a row. The thing here is that is varies greatly from player to player because it depends on your skill, and again, you have to make a mistake to get hit. For some it's a great deal less than 57%, for some a great deal higher than 57%. And that's what makes it okay, because it's based on player skill (of both players), not chance. You are saying there is no difference between this and there being a 20% chance of getting hit per shot from X distance, no matter what you do, based on pure chance. This percentage also varies, but there is only so much you can do to decrease it: there'll still be a relatively large random chance of getting hit from a moderate distance because of how the game mechanics work.
Title: Re: I´m so tired of all of this
Post by: Adamar on September 26, 2013, 08:14:17 pm
You're bad

Im heavy, and I shouldn't.