Well your idea of heavy cavalry in cRPG is a little strange. If heavy cavalry couldn't maneuever and weave through the enemy then they would just get dehorsed in a mtter of seconds. Unless of course you want them to actually be shock and awe troops, trampling enemies and killing them, spears not rearing them and breaking unless they are braced pikes. Running head on is the worst thing a horseman can do in this mod, so all cavalry is effectively light cavalry.
Light cavalry in this mod is a guy on a Courser with any kind of lance or weapon. It doesn't matter what armor value he has. Heavy cavalry is a guy on a war horse and up. Armor doesn't determine whether they're light or heavy its the horse.
But I thought about the armor weight thing and most of these war horses are trained to carry a heavy knight and so it doesn't make much of a difference with armor on or off. Saddle horses and ones like it will probably suffer so penalties.
So I really don't think armor or weapons determines if a player is light or heavy cavalry, it's the horse. Meaning only weight penalties should apply to light horses.
I can't tell you how many times I've been occupied in melee when suddenly a heavy cavalry charges me. Sometimes I react in time and am able to dodge the cavalry, sometimes I'm not. But those times that I do dodge the fully-armored knight on his plated warhorse, nothing pisses me off more than him turning around as soon as he misses me and taking a few more swings. These are massive, 2000+lbs. horses with 300+ pounds of man and armor on top of them. At full gallop they shouldn't be capable of a 90 degree turn at all, let alone within a few seconds as it is in cRPG. You said that "all cavalry is effectively light cavalry" which proves exactly my point -- there is no reason to not wear heavy armor while on horseback. Let them charge into the fray and risk being dehorsed, they chose to be heavy cavalry.
Say two players mount two coursers. The first player is in full plate, the second player is naked. They race a short distance. Who should win?
Say two players mount two coursers. The first player is in full plate, the second player is naked. They race a short distance. Who should win?
The naked guy irl, none in cRPG. What did i win ?
Indeed, that's troublesome.
But :
Say two players mount two armored horses. The first player is in full plate, the second player is naked. They race a short distance. Who should win?
None in cRPG, and none irl. An armored horse doesn't care if his rider weights 30 more kilos. What's more, if the rider is too "light", the horse might forget there's someone on him, and do dangerous maneuvers.
So now, what wonderfull piece of code do you propose, and how do you classify horses, so that :
- "light" horses suffer *slight* penalties from a heavy rider
- "heavy" horses don't.
yes however every pound of weight counts when making a horse run faster, thats why a jockey who weighs 100lbs is better then one that weighs 150. The horse works less as he has less weight to move with, it only makes sense really. If the horse didnt care as he posted about the weight of the rider then we wouldnt have jockeys.
Would be nice if they also made it so you can dismount a horse without having to rear the horse (or come to a complete stop), but I doubt that will ever happen (I know I created at least one thread and suggested it)
There's actually a decent amount of data on this subject if you care to do the research, what antiblitz quoted shows nothing other than an arbitrary weight limit. Just about every horse (Particularly ones that were used in war during the medieval ages), would be almost completely unaffected by the additional weight we're talking about here. I say almost, because it would have an affect over a long distance run, but nothing for like what we see in cRPG. The Item Balance team discussed this about a year ago, it's unrealistic and not a very good means to an end. The problem is Warband and how it ties too many features to the horse maneuver stat.
Realistically, what you'd be looking at is a difference of ~20 lbs (at max, and I can't help from feeling that this is rather generous) from the heavier to the more common loadouts for riders. For a 1300 lb destrier, thats not even 2% of its body weight. As I said before, you'll see an impact in endurance, not its max speed or acceleration. The only reason we can even have this conversation, is because armor weight in cRPG is unrealistic. So I'm not sure if that's where you're getting 70 lbs in armor, but that's nearly double what it would actually weigh.
Edit: As Jarold stated on the first page, the only horses that would be penalized by this, would be ones where it doesn't make sense to be using full plate armor to begin with.
Need a moderator to move this thread to the realism discussion section.
Being 2% lighter isn't going to make a huge difference for a race car outside of braking either.
i had to guess on what plate armor weighed as well as the gear included, and estimated 70lbs, im sure i was off, however i couldnt find anything on the weight of plate, as alot of what i saw referred to stuff you saw in the later ages, which would have made armor lighter and thinner, though just as strong.
Races cars, yes it does.
Drag racing every millisecond counts, and weight reduction is everything.
unsprung weight = 100LBS = 0.1 in the 1/4 = ~ 10hp.
THE MOAR YOU KNOW!!!!!!
I'm positive that this has been brought up before but I'm going to bring it up again anyway.
As a dedicated horseman, there is no reason -- besides upkeep -- to not wear heavy armor.
An infantryman loses speed when he wears heavy armor. What does a horseman lose? Surely a slight amount attack speed, but any skilled horseman knows not put himself in a situation where attack speed is a factor in his survival.
Say two players mount two coursers. The first player is in full plate, the second player is naked. They race a short distance. Who should win? Did someone say the naked guy? Wrong, they tie. A few seconds later, two crossbowmen fire their crossbows into the players mounted on the coursers. The naked guy dies and the armored guy lives with two thirds of his HP to spare. So why should I be light cavalry?
Well, if your horse dies, you're slightly faster. But I'm a dedicated horseman, I don't give a damn about how quick I am on foot!
You don't have to pay as much for upkeep. But I made the conscience choice to be light cavalry, not because I'm poor!
In history, what did light cavalry do? Yes, a large amount of their appeal was in communications and reconnaissance, but they had a number of battlefield advantages over heavy cavalry. The obvious is enhanced mobility. During the Scottish Wars of Independence, light cavalry were the deciding factor in many battles. Take the Battle of Bannockburn where five-hundred light cavalry effectively caused the whole of the English army to retreat by dispersing the English longbowmen. This leads to my suggestion: the weight of your gear should effect the mobility and acceleration of your horse. Notice I said "acceleration" instead of "speed." Heavy cavalry typically didn't weave through the battlefield as we see in cRPG. They are meant to be as shock-and-awe chargers, and unfortunately that is not represented in this mod.
I think we can all gain from the implementation of this suggestion. No longer would plated chargers with Milanese knights on their backs do 180o turns in two seconds, and no longer would every horseman that isn't a horse archer feel the need to wear full plate.
What about actual racing ?
With a track and stuff
Realistically, what you'd be looking at is a difference of ~20 lbs (at max, and I can't help from feeling that this is rather generous) from the heavier to the more common loadouts for riders. For a 1300 lb destrier, thats not even 2% of its body weight. As I said before, you'll see an impact in endurance, not its max speed or acceleration. The only reason we can even have this conversation, is because armor weight in cRPG is unrealistic. So I'm not sure if that's where you're getting 70 lbs in armor, but that's nearly double what it would actually weigh.
Edit: As Jarold stated on the first page, the only horses that would be penalized by this, would be ones where it doesn't make sense to be using full plate armor to begin with.
Need a moderator to move this thread to the realism discussion section.
I just see a straight line of asphalt. I very well know what drag racing is, I just think it's boring. There's very little going on outside of preparing the vehicules and while I applaud the technical effort it takes, that isn't enough to support a show in my opinion. In other racing disciplines, a small difference in weight will be less critical than correctly setting up of the suspensions, aerodynamics, braking balance, anti-traction-loss differential...(click to show/hide)
Auto racing in North America is a joke. The popular form is oval tracks and drunk rednecks go there hoping to see someone crash. I never understood the appeal to this type of racing.
one word: upkeep...
edit: yea go ahead - me for stating a fact that being a light cav is much cheaper than being heavy cav...
do it...DO IT A DARE YA!!!
I -'d you because you clearly didn't read the post, I addressed "upkeep" as an invalid reasoning twice
then there is nothing we can do about it. just imagine those uncatchable horse archers with no armor and sidearm, with only bow and 2 stacks of arrows.
Unsure of how this is relevant. I'm not really interested in arguing this further because it was already said that this idea will not be implemented, but I'll say this: a point I tried to get across is that while upkeep should be a factor in what class you choose to play, it shouldn't trump your desires for gameplay.
but that is exactly how it is. i would love to play shielder with hunting crossbow as sidearm and good armor, but..you get the idea...
I don't think you quite understand what I'm trying to say.
Light footman = fast, low upkeep
Heavy footman = slow, high upkeep
Light horseman = fast, low upkeep
Heavy horseman = fast, high upkeep
There is our inconsistency and so the light horseman is at a disadvantage. I could be the richest player in cRPG, but if myself (as a light horseman) fought another player of equal skill (as a heavy horseman), I would always lose.
even if you run around naked with 8 athletics you will never catch anyone riding on horse [donkey is exception, and not really a horse]. lemme fix this.
light infantry: decent speed, low upkeep
heavy infantry: slow, high upkeep
light horseman: extremely fast, low to medium upkeep
heavy horseman: good speed, high upkeep
note: by heavy horseman i mean a guy who has armored horse, not just a guy who rides a horse in heavy armor.
you gotta understand that unarmored horse trades off armor and hitpoints for speed,upkeep and, in some cases, maneuverablility.
I don't think you quite understand what I'm trying to say.
Light footman = fast, low upkeep
Heavy footman = slow, high upkeep
Light horseman = fast, low upkeep
Heavy horseman = fast, high upkeep
There is our inconsistency and so the light horseman is at a disadvantage. I could be the richest player in cRPG, but if myself (as a light horseman) fought another player of equal skill (as a heavy horseman), I would always lose.