Give light cavalry a purpose on the battlefield!

[Nightmare798]

I'm positive that this has been brought up before but I'm going to bring it up again anyway.

As a dedicated horseman, there is no reason -- besides upkeep -- to not wear heavy armor.

An infantryman loses speed when he wears heavy armor. What does a horseman lose? Surely a slight amount attack speed, but any skilled horseman knows not put himself in a situation where attack speed is a factor in his survival.

Say two players mount two coursers. The first player is in full plate, the second player is naked. They race a short distance. Who should win? Did someone say the naked guy? Wrong, they tie. A few seconds later, two crossbowmen fire their crossbows into the players mounted on the coursers. The naked guy dies and the armored guy lives with two thirds of his HP to spare. So why should I be light cavalry?

Well, if your horse dies, you're slightly faster. ^{But I'm a dedicated horseman, I don't give a damn about how quick I am on foot!}
You don't have to pay as much for upkeep. ^{But I made the conscience choice to be light cavalry, not because I'm poor!}

In history, what did light cavalry do? Yes, a large amount of their appeal was in communications and reconnaissance, but they had a number of battlefield advantages over heavy cavalry. The obvious is enhanced mobility. During the Scottish Wars of Independence, light cavalry were the deciding factor in many battles. Take the Battle of Bannockburn where five-hundred light cavalry effectively caused the whole of the English army to retreat by dispersing the English longbowmen. This leads to my suggestion: the weight of your gear should effect the mobility and acceleration of your horse. Notice I said "acceleration" instead of "speed." Heavy cavalry typically didn't weave through the battlefield as we see in cRPG. They are meant to be as shock-and-awe chargers, and unfortunately that is not represented in this mod.

I think we can all gain from the implementation of this suggestion. No longer would plated chargers with Milanese knights on their backs do 180^o turns in two seconds, and no longer would every horseman that isn't a horse archer feel the need to wear full plate.

one word: upkeep...

edit: yea go ahead - me for stating a fact that being a light cav is much cheaper than being heavy cav...

do it...DO IT A DARE YA!!!

[AntiBlitz]

What about actual racing ?

With a track and stuff

wasn't aware drag racing wasn't a form of racing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_racing
http://www.cecilcountydragway.com/   <----where i race

No tracks there, nope, we like to race in the dirt.....
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I apologize Bulzur, was a little heated when i posted that, and was looking for blood.  Still not in denial however, it just makes sense, adding weight to something increases the physical exertion required to move such weight, and when it comes to cars, or horses its the same thing, they will go slower when under load.

[Ellie]

I like the idea of decreasing heavy horse mobility, to an extent.

But I feel like it should never be implemented. There are already enough heavy cav who bump their team constantly. Lowering their maneuverability would make things worse.

[MURDERTRON]

Nerf cats.  Buff dogs.

It would be nice to see light cavalry become a viable class again, but after the double nerf (heavy lance and charge) it's hard to justify the skill points and upkeep costs.

[Kafein]

I just see a straight line of asphalt. I very well know what drag racing is, I just think it's boring. There's very little going on outside of preparing the vehicules and while I applaud the technical effort it takes, that isn't enough to support a show in my opinion. In other racing disciplines, a small difference in weight will be less critical than correctly setting up of the suspensions, aerodynamics, braking balance, anti-traction-loss differential...

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[Tomas]

Realistically, what you'd be looking at is a difference of ~20 lbs (at max, and I can't help from feeling that this is rather generous) from the heavier to the more common loadouts for riders. For a 1300 lb destrier, thats not even 2% of its body weight. As I said before, you'll see an impact in endurance, not its max speed or acceleration. The only reason we can even have this conversation, is because armor weight in cRPG is unrealistic. So I'm not sure if that's where you're getting 70 lbs in armor, but that's nearly double what it would actually weigh.

Edit: As Jarold stated on the first page, the only horses that would be penalized by this, would be ones where it doesn't make sense to be using full plate armor to begin with.

Need a moderator to move this thread to the realism discussion section.

2 things here

1) Don't forget that it is not just the weight of the rider but the weight of the rider in relation to their position on the horse.  To understand what I mean about it not just being as simple as taking the extra mass as a percentage, look at Chain Mail and Plate Armour.  Both weigh about the same but Plate is easier to wear because the weight is spread out more around your body. 

I don't know how much difference this will make but most of the research seems to ignore it as well.  At a guess it wouldn't do too much to a horses straight line acceleration but when turning at speed there could be a significant effect as the riders weight shifts to the horses flank and the horse reacts.

2) Don't forget the rider is not passive in this.  20lb might be insignificant to the horse but it is not to the rider who must compensate for the additional mass whenever the horse accelerates or turns.  For this the rider may choose not to turn so fast or accelerate so quickly.  How much so I have no idea.

However since I have no idea about either point's significance and I'm not cav - I don't care.  I'm just arguing because I'm bored

[CrazyCracka420]

I just see a straight line of asphalt. I very well know what drag racing is, I just think it's boring. There's very little going on outside of preparing the vehicules and while I applaud the technical effort it takes, that isn't enough to support a show in my opinion. In other racing disciplines, a small difference in weight will be less critical than correctly setting up of the suspensions, aerodynamics, braking balance, anti-traction-loss differential...

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Auto racing in North America is a joke.  The popular form is oval tracks and drunk rednecks go there hoping to see someone crash.  I never understood the appeal to this type of racing. 

[Kafein]

Auto racing in North America is a joke.  The popular form is oval tracks and drunk rednecks go there hoping to see someone crash.  I never understood the appeal to this type of racing.

At least in NASCAR drafting has a huge influence.

[CrazyCracka420]

yes, much more about strategy and numbers than raw talent/skill (at least that's my take on it)

[Palurgee]

one word: upkeep...

edit: yea go ahead - me for stating a fact that being a light cav is much cheaper than being heavy cav...

do it...DO IT A DARE YA!!!

I -'d you because you clearly didn't read the post, I addressed "upkeep" as an invalid reasoning twice

[Nightmare798]

I -'d you because you clearly didn't read the post, I addressed "upkeep" as an invalid reasoning twice

then there is nothing we can do about it. just imagine those uncatchable horse archers with no armor and sidearm, with only bow and 2 stacks of arrows.

[Palurgee]

then there is nothing we can do about it. just imagine those uncatchable horse archers with no armor and sidearm, with only bow and 2 stacks of arrows.

Unsure of how this is relevant. I'm not really interested in arguing this further because it was already said that this idea will not be implemented, but I'll say this: a point I tried to get across is that while upkeep should be a factor in what class you choose to play, it shouldn't trump your desires for gameplay.

[Nightmare798]

Unsure of how this is relevant. I'm not really interested in arguing this further because it was already said that this idea will not be implemented, but I'll say this: a point I tried to get across is that while upkeep should be a factor in what class you choose to play, it shouldn't trump your desires for gameplay.

but that is exactly how it is. i would love to play shielder with hunting crossbow as sidearm and good armor, but..you get the idea...

[Palurgee]

but that is exactly how it is. i would love to play shielder with hunting crossbow as sidearm and good armor, but..you get the idea...

I don't think you quite understand what I'm trying to say.

Light footman = fast, low upkeep
Heavy footman = slow, high upkeep
Light horseman = fast, low upkeep
Heavy horseman = fast, high upkeep

There is our inconsistency and so the light horseman is at a disadvantage. I could be the richest player in cRPG, but if myself (as a light horseman) fought another player of equal skill (as a heavy horseman), I would always lose.

[Nightmare798]

I don't think you quite understand what I'm trying to say.

Light footman = fast, low upkeep
Heavy footman = slow, high upkeep
Light horseman = fast, low upkeep
Heavy horseman = fast, high upkeep

There is our inconsistency and so the light horseman is at a disadvantage. I could be the richest player in cRPG, but if myself (as a light horseman) fought another player of equal skill (as a heavy horseman), I would always lose.

even if you run around naked with 8 athletics you will never catch anyone riding on horse [donkey is exception, and not really a horse]. lemme fix this.

light infantry: decent speed, low upkeep
heavy infantry: slow, high upkeep
light horseman: extremely fast, low to medium upkeep
heavy horseman: good speed, high upkeep

note: by heavy horseman i mean a guy who has armored horse, not just a guy who rides a horse in heavy armor.

you gotta understand that unarmored horse trades off armor and hitpoints for speed,upkeep and, in some cases, maneuverablility.