Give light cavalry a purpose on the battlefield!

[Palurgee]

I'm positive that this has been brought up before but I'm going to bring it up again anyway.

As a dedicated horseman, there is no reason -- besides upkeep -- to not wear heavy armor.

An infantryman loses speed when he wears heavy armor. What does a horseman lose? Surely a slight amount attack speed, but any skilled horseman knows not put himself in a situation where attack speed is a factor in his survival.

Say two players mount two coursers. The first player is in full plate, the second player is naked. They race a short distance. Who should win? Did someone say the naked guy? Wrong, they tie. A few seconds later, two crossbowmen fire their crossbows into the players mounted on the coursers. The naked guy dies and the armored guy lives with two thirds of his HP to spare. So why should I be light cavalry?

Well, if your horse dies, you're slightly faster. ^{But I'm a dedicated horseman, I don't give a damn about how quick I am on foot!}
You don't have to pay as much for upkeep. ^{But I made the conscience choice to be light cavalry, not because I'm poor!}

In history, what did light cavalry do? Yes, a large amount of their appeal was in communications and reconnaissance, but they had a number of battlefield advantages over heavy cavalry. The obvious is enhanced mobility. During the Scottish Wars of Independence, light cavalry were the deciding factor in many battles. Take the Battle of Bannockburn where five-hundred light cavalry effectively caused the whole of the English army to retreat by dispersing the English longbowmen. This leads to my suggestion: the weight of your gear should effect the mobility and acceleration of your horse. Notice I said "acceleration" instead of "speed." Heavy cavalry typically didn't weave through the battlefield as we see in cRPG. They are meant to be as shock-and-awe chargers, and unfortunately that is not represented in this mod.

I think we can all gain from the implementation of this suggestion. No longer would plated chargers with Milanese knights on their backs do 180^o turns in two seconds, and no longer would every horseman that isn't a horse archer feel the need to wear full plate.

[Ronin]

I was not going to approve of this idea, but after reading all of the description; I saw that it makes sense.

[Jarold]

Well your idea of heavy cavalry in cRPG is a little strange. If heavy cavalry couldn't maneuever and weave through the enemy then they would just get dehorsed in a mtter of seconds. Unless of course you want them to actually be shock and awe troops, trampling enemies and killing them, spears not rearing them and breaking unless they are braced pikes. Running head on is the worst thing a horseman can do in this mod, so all cavalry is effectively light cavalry.

Light cavalry in this mod is a guy on a Courser with any kind of lance or weapon. It doesn't matter what armor value he has. Heavy cavalry is a guy on a war horse and up. Armor doesn't determine whether they're light or heavy its the horse.

But I thought about the armor weight thing and most of these war horses are trained to carry a heavy knight and so it doesn't make much of a difference with armor on or off. Saddle horses and ones like it will probably suffer so penalties.

So I really don't think armor or weapons determines if a player is light or heavy cavalry, it's the horse. Meaning only weight penalties should apply to light horses.

[Palurgee]

Well your idea of heavy cavalry in cRPG is a little strange. If heavy cavalry couldn't maneuever and weave through the enemy then they would just get dehorsed in a mtter of seconds. Unless of course you want them to actually be shock and awe troops, trampling enemies and killing them, spears not rearing them and breaking unless they are braced pikes. Running head on is the worst thing a horseman can do in this mod, so all cavalry is effectively light cavalry.

Light cavalry in this mod is a guy on a Courser with any kind of lance or weapon. It doesn't matter what armor value he has. Heavy cavalry is a guy on a war horse and up. Armor doesn't determine whether they're light or heavy its the horse.

But I thought about the armor weight thing and most of these war horses are trained to carry a heavy knight and so it doesn't make much of a difference with armor on or off. Saddle horses and ones like it will probably suffer so penalties.

So I really don't think armor or weapons determines if a player is light or heavy cavalry, it's the horse. Meaning only weight penalties should apply to light horses.

I can't tell you how many times I've been occupied in melee when suddenly a heavy cavalry charges me. Sometimes I react in time and am able to dodge the cavalry, sometimes I'm not. But those times that I do dodge the fully-armored knight on his plated warhorse, nothing pisses me off more than him turning around as soon as he misses me and taking a few more swings. These are massive, 2000+lbs. horses with 300+ pounds of man and armor on top of them. At full gallop they shouldn't be capable of a 90 degree turn at all, let alone within a few seconds as it is in cRPG. You said that "all cavalry is effectively light cavalry" which proves exactly my point -- there is no reason to not wear heavy armor while on horseback. Let them charge into the fray and risk being dehorsed, they chose to be heavy cavalry.

[Kafein]

I can't tell you how many times I've been occupied in melee when suddenly a heavy cavalry charges me. Sometimes I react in time and am able to dodge the cavalry, sometimes I'm not. But those times that I do dodge the fully-armored knight on his plated warhorse, nothing pisses me off more than him turning around as soon as he misses me and taking a few more swings. These are massive, 2000+lbs. horses with 300+ pounds of man and armor on top of them. At full gallop they shouldn't be capable of a 90 degree turn at all, let alone within a few seconds as it is in cRPG. You said that "all cavalry is effectively light cavalry" which proves exactly my point -- there is no reason to not wear heavy armor while on horseback. Let them charge into the fray and risk being dehorsed, they chose to be heavy cavalry.

You don't seem to have any idea how dangerous it is for a cav player to slow down, turn around and go back towards a given target. That's plenty enough time to be shot to pieces or reared and killed if there are any polearm players anywhere near you.

There will never be heavy cavalry in cRPG unless suddenly we have 500 players on a single server making tight formations and fighting on a perfectly flat field with absolutely no rock, wall, tree or building. In other words, never. The most important horse stat is maneuver because if you don't have that, you can't avoid things that will hit you or your horse. Playing cav is a lot like playing melee with a weapon that can't block. The only reliable way of avoiding damage is to stay out of reach, and that's the first reason maneuver is king. The second reason is that if you want to stay alive you need to move the fastest as possible. That means people will not spot you early enough to attack you and that means you are a more difficult target to hit from range, which you have no means of effectively defending your horse against. All horses turn relatively fast when going slowly, but at high speed maneuver is extremely important. Your targets are much, much more agile than you. In warband a human is an inertialess creature that can very well sprint in one direction then in less than a tenth of a second, sprint in the opposite direction, plus it can gain a massive ponctual speed boost by jumping. To hit such a thing requires extremely sharp last instant reactions that any horse in the mod is simply unable to pull off. As cav all your actions are telegraphed one second in advance, from the instant you release your attack to the instant you hope it will hit, and from the moment you start turning away to the moment you actually reach the direction you want.

The continuous maneuver nerfs on top of the cav weapon nerfs are also the reason the few cav players you will see concentrate on ninjaing people no matter their horse. If anything a lighter horse is better suited for one to one combat, and a heavier one for backstabbing.

[//saxon]

Say two players mount two coursers. The first player is in full plate, the second player is naked. They race a short distance. Who should win?

who ever has more riding skill i suppose.

[CrazyCracka420]

Just wanted to say what Jarold and Kafein said.  Light cavalry versus heavy cavalry refers to the horse and the horses' armor (barding) not the rider's armor level.

And that all horses are essentially light horses in this mod, at least the way that they are used. 

Also I'm level 34, gen 13 (should be gen 16 but retired at 32 and then again at 33).  I've always struggled with money as a cavalry player.  The most I've ever had (after selling looms) was 150k.  That lasted me about 3 months of playing about 6 or 7 nights every 14 days, using high end medium armor.

Yes having heavy armor is the most forgiving on horse back (yes it drops your effective WPF, but it's not that noticeable on horseback since you already suffer the mounted malus modifier [say that 10 times fast]), you suffer no speed penalty.   But it's expensive and I can't keep up with the costs.  Sure I could give up a loom point and be good to wear heavy armor from horseback for a year, but I'd rather have the loom. 

Maneuverability is the king of horse stats.  And I've always felt the Arabian horse was the best horse because of this reasoning.  When the plated charger guy in heavy plate armor is constantly turning around after making a pass at you, he's vulnerable to other cavalry and to ranged classes.  You're either fighting wrong (too far away from teammates who can support you), or you're the last one alive (and should be dying sooner in the round) 

[Bulzur]

Say two players mount two coursers. The first player is in full plate, the second player is naked. They race a short distance. Who should win?

The naked guy irl, none in cRPG. What did i win ?
Indeed, that's troublesome.

But :

Say two players mount two armored horses. The first player is in full plate, the second player is naked. They race a short distance. Who should win?
None in cRPG, and none irl. An armored horse doesn't care if his rider weights 30 more kilos. What's more, if the rider is too "light", the horse might forget there's someone on him, and do dangerous maneuvers.

So now, what wonderfull piece of code do you propose, and how do you classify horses, so that :
- "light" horses suffer *slight* penalties from a heavy rider
- "heavy" horses don't.

[KaMiKaZe_JoE]

The key stat is speed imo.

It depends how you use your horse, but I think speed is superior to maneuverability. Usually, the shit that I use maneuverability for is decided before I charge into the shit.

I top the scoreboards by setting myself up away from the infantry gaggles. I pick a victim, who is usually distracted, and charge straight at him, careful to steer clear of interference. Speed gets me to the target, then out of harms way. Speed, plus a long lance, lets me hit said target before he or she can react. Literally, before they can react.

And, for OP: I agree. Light armor is useless except for wpf, which doesn't matter because if you're good cav YOU control the circumstances of your engagement--when the strike lands, when you reach the distracted peasant victim.

[AntiBlitz]

The naked guy irl, none in cRPG. What did i win ?
Indeed, that's troublesome.

But :

Say two players mount two armored horses. The first player is in full plate, the second player is naked. They race a short distance. Who should win?
None in cRPG, and none irl. An armored horse doesn't care if his rider weights 30 more kilos. What's more, if the rider is too "light", the horse might forget there's someone on him, and do dangerous maneuvers.

So now, what wonderfull piece of code do you propose, and how do you classify horses, so that :
- "light" horses suffer *slight* penalties from a heavy rider
- "heavy" horses don't.

You're a fucking idiot......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jockey
Physical characteristics
Inside the weighing-in room at Eagle Farm racecourse, Brisbane, Australia, May 1941

Jockeys must be light to ride at the weights which are assigned to their mounts. There are horse carrying weight limits, that are set by racing authorities. The Kentucky Derby, for example, has a weight limit of 126 lb (57 kg) including the jockey's equipment. The weight of a jockey usually ranges from 108 to 118 lb (49 to 54 kg).[3] Despite their light weight, they must be able to control a horse that is moving at 40 mph (64 km/h) and weighs 1,200 lb (540 kg).[citation needed] Though there is no height limit for jockeys, they are usually fairly short due to the weight limits. Jockeys typically stand around 4 ft 10 in (1.47 m) to 5 ft 6 in (1.68 m).[3]

[San]

I may just be severely sleep deprived, but the horses in that jockey link don't look armored to me.

[AntiBlitz]

yes however every pound of weight counts when making a horse run faster, thats why a jockey who weighs 100lbs is better then one that weighs 150.  The horse works less as he has less weight to move with, it only makes sense really.  If the horse didnt care as he posted about the weight of the rider then we wouldnt have jockeys. 

[CrazyCracka420]

Joe I do think that it's awesome being the fastest horse on the battlefield, but I still think maneuverability is better.  If it didn't take 21 agility I'd ride an Arabian.  Speed is nice because I can't even count how many times I'm racing at someone full speed and they don't have time to react before I thrust at them.   But maneuverability is nice because you can actually fight targets who have spotted you.

[Wolfsblood]

yes however every pound of weight counts when making a horse run faster, thats why a jockey who weighs 100lbs is better then one that weighs 150.  The horse works less as he has less weight to move with, it only makes sense really.  If the horse didnt care as he posted about the weight of the rider then we wouldnt have jockeys.

I Believe what san was trying to say was that there is a difference between the racing horses of today and the warhorses back then. you are correct that weight matters for any horse but for a horse that is bred for carrying a ton of weight over high speed/maneuverability will suffer less when if comes to their natural maneuverability than a race horse that is bred for speed.

[Phew]

My idea; add a horse weight stat, and give every player the same base body weight (180 lbs or whatever), then scale horse speed and maneuverability according to the rider's total weight as a percentage of the horse's weight. This way heavy armor wouldn't affect heavy horses much, but say an Arabian would struggle with a plated knight.

Also, how about they make it take longer for a de-horsed rider to get up depending on their armor weight? This could work for knockdown also, although the new roll mechanic (which I keep forgetting to use) apparently takes armor weight into account already.