cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: BlueKnight on May 19, 2013, 05:14:10 pm
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Change nudge. Yesterday I've been running around with my 1h cav character on foot because this puching was funny as hell. This feature seems to be kinda innocent and it's not that useful 1vs1 or 1vs2 but in 2vs1 situation it's impossible to lose. WhiteKnight who's not even 1h was using it as well. We were simply running to people punching them, they were stunned and we were spamming them. It was hilarious but it's op.
My character who has 15 str and mail mittens with this nudge could stun an enemy who was wearing heavy armour and holding a block with his shield, really? If I dropped my weapon I could be punching him all day long and he wouldn't be even interrupted but with this nudge, even a tincan can be stunned by bare-handed woman.
Another thing wrong with nudge is that it stops moving enemy which is kinda too much. I guess this feature would be good enough if it was interrupting enemy but stopping him for a while is gamebreaking.
I like the fact that it's very short but it's still really easy to punch an enemy. I was laughing whole yesterday's evening because of this funny feature but it needs adjustment. I was waiting for topic like this to be started by somebody but haven't seen any, so I started mine. Maybe I'm just blind and haven't seen any.
I would suggest nudge to work similar to punch, so that enemy's armour and the weight of gauntlets and str of attacker was taken in account. Also it shouldn't stop the enemy and should be blockable with shield.
Another funny thing is when you change your weapon from for example polearm to 1h. Instantly even before you draw your 1h you can use that nudge. WhiteKnight was using lawlpike and punching people because nudge was available even before the 1h weapon was drawn completely. It looked ridiculous :D
Nudge is 2 powerful. Any enemy dying close to me was punched by me before he got ganked, it's ridiculous and extremely funny but still, it's op.
Also I don't see why same mechanic couldn't be used with 2h weapons. Believe or not but it's not that hard to hold 2h sword in 1 hand for a while :rolleyes: Maybe some 2h weapons like great maul and other "heavy duty" stuff should be restricted but I don't see any reason why 2h swords shouldn't use this feature, especially after adjusting it's power to the normal level.
On the other hand it's hard for me to imagine polearmers use this feature unless hoplites punching with shield which I believe is on it's way. All in all nudging while holding a block looks just like an animation made for use of shielders.
Ah and last but not least, I have knocked down 3 enemies yesterday with this nudge thingy... Really? I don't know how but I knocked down 3 players with it. Is there any nudge combo that knocks enemy down? I don't know how it happened but I scored 3 knockdowns with nudge. I guess people are just pussies who fall on the ground from lefthand punch which all in all looks like a kindergarten bitchslap.
Anyway much love to developers who still improve the mod. Keep up the good work and thx for this feature (but really, adjust it).
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I feel we don't need a nudge, isn't kick enough?
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The more mechanics the better I would say, obviously as long as their power is under control.
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But isn't it the exact same thing as a kick?
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They are totally different and give you different bonuses. Primary use of kick is so the enemy gets into it and you score a hit and when it comes to punch, you catch the enemy and puch him so other teammate close to you can hit him. You might try to hit as well but you have to be quick because punch-stun lasts shorter than kick stun. Basically punching is great gangbang-tool and you can do that while moving and kicking is rather 1vs1 "trap" that enemy has to go into.
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Poor Jarold can't play to see for himself :cry:
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Punching messes with your animations quite a bit, and it's no risk since you can block immediately afterwards. It makes feints and holds much trickier. The stun is still no joke even in a 1v1. I found the nudge more useful for me in duel server so far, since in a gank, overhead is always my best option and you don't need to facehug. Although, this is coming from a player with only 5ath. High ath 1hs can use this extremely well, and the stun is still sometimes long enough to hit in an unblockable position.
I like the idea of still being able to move when you get nudged. I would also like the knockdown not to happen on the fastest nudge. I think the slower ones should work on shields, while the quick one doesn't.
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Also I don't see why same mechanic couldn't be used with 2h weapons. Believe or not but it's not that hard to hold 2h sword in 1 hand for a while :rolleyes: Maybe some 2h weapons like great maul and other "heavy duty" stuff should be restricted but I don't see any reason why 2h swords shouldn't use this feature, especially after adjusting it's power to the normal level.
Because 1h without shield has no real advantage compared to 2h or 1h with shield, therefore they get the nudge to make up for that.
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Punching messes with your animations quite a bit, and it's no risk since you can block immediately afterwards. It makes feints and holds much trickier. The stun is still no joke even in a 1v1. I found the nudge more useful for me in duel server so far, since in a gank, overhead is always my best option and you don't need to facehug. Although, this is coming from a player with only 5ath. High ath 1hs can use this extremely well, and the stun is still sometimes long enough to hit in an unblockable position.
I like the idea of still being able to move when you get nudged. I would also like the knockdown not to happen on the fastest nudge. I think the slower ones should work on shields, while the quick one doesn't.
The "slow" one only looks slow. As far as i know and from what I've noticed it is as instant as normal nudge. And ye, sometimes you can hit the enemy but it doesn't change the fact that you have to react quickly to do that. All I said about 1vs1 is that then it's not op but in 2vs1 you just stop the enemy and he gets between you and your teammate which is bad for him lol.
EDIT: Also this game has enough knockdown already, don't add even more.
Because 1h without shield has no real advantage compared to 2h or 1h with shield, therefore they get the nudge to make up for that.
You believe it?
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Two nudges already have knockdown. There is a nudge guide on the forums that explains this. I was suggesting to remove one of them, or move its functionality to a nudge that is more difficult to perform.
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I like the idea of still being able to move when you get nudged. I would also like the knockdown not to happen on the fastest nudge. I think the slower ones should work on shields, while the quick one doesn't.
I agree with that, the quick ones at least should really be more of an interruption of your enemies action rather than a complete stun.
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You believe it?
What clear advantage does 1h without shield have compared to 2h and 1h with shield?
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What clear advantage does 1h without shield have compared to 2h and 1h with shield?
- Moves of 1h without shield are harder to follow than moves of 1h with shield.
- 1h without shield moves faster than 1h with shield (shield is heavy)
- 1h are cheaper than 2h
- 1h are faster than 2h
- all 1h knockdown weapons & shieldbreakers are balanced
- 1h are better on horseback than 2h
- fastest attack of 1h is also attack to the head (l. swing)
Basically the point of 1h compared to 2h is that you hit more often for less damage.
And what are the benefits of 2h and 1h+ shield over 1h no shield?
2h:
- some weapons are longer than 1h
- deals more damage than 1h
1h+shield:
- blocks projectiles
- blocks multiple attacks in the same time
- blocks couch
I don't see your point of 1h no shield being so much worse it needs additional animation.
+stahp the derail
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- Moves of 1h without shield are harder to follow than moves of 1h with shield.
- 1h without shield moves faster than 1h with shield (shield is heavy)
- 1h are cheaper than 2h
- 1h are faster than 2h
- all 1h knockdown weapons & shieldbreakers are balanced
- 1h are better on horseback than 2h
- fastest attack of 1h is also attack to the head (l. swing)
Basically the point of 1h compared to 2h is that you hit more often for less damage.
And what are the benefits of 2h and 1h+ shield over 1h no shield?
2h:
- some weapons are longer than 1h
- deals more damage than 1h
1h+shield:
- blocks projectiles
- blocks multiple attacks in the same time
- blocks couch
I don't see your point of 1h no shield being so much worse it needs additional animation.
+stahp the derail
My God! If only the devs knew all this sooner! Whatever will those poor, defenseless 2-handers do?
I'll just leave this here...
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
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My God! If only the devs knew all this sooner! Whatever will those poor, defenseless 2-handers do?
I'll just leave this here...
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
I see you just summarised all 2h weapons by bringing 2 out of 3 (forgot miaodao) best spamming weapons.
Right swing of NCS is still longer than Longsword's swings. Anyway I don't know about percentage of usage 2hs in NA but EU usually uses longer/slower 2hs. Longsword and bastard sword are great, I hate fighting against them.
Also note that I am not seeking for 2h buff so I don't really know your point now.
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1h without shield is easy mode, because of superior animations (2h and pole animations can anybody block for hours, 1h not so much).
People who cant kick reliably are pretty much dead meat for 1 handers.
Nudge is cool, but if that "transfer through people" feature/bug when you got free strike from back wont be fixed, its just too strong.
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Also I don't see why same mechanic couldn't be used with 2h weapons. Believe or not but it's not that hard to hold 2h sword in 1 hand for a while :rolleyes: Maybe some 2h weapons like great maul and other "heavy duty" stuff should be restricted but I don't see any reason why 2h swords shouldn't use this feature, especially after adjusting it's power to the normal level.
THIS.
Nudge should be available for the 1h/2h swords (bastard swords, long sword, katana).
Some options for its implementation would be to only make it available during the 'idle' when you're not blocking or attacking since you're only holding the sword with one hand at that point, or to change the alternate mode for these weapons to 1h and make nudges available only when using 1h mode.
Historically there were a lot of advantages to being able to use these swords with one hand like being able to grab your opponent's weapon or punch(!) with your free hand when in the bind. The strength of these weapons was their versatility and imo that's underrepresented in cRPG.
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I see you just summarised all 2h weapons by bringing 2 out of 3 (forgot miaodao) best spamming weapons.
Right swing of NCS is still longer than Longsword's swings. Anyway I don't know about percentage of usage 2hs in NA but EU usually uses longer/slower 2hs. Longsword and bastard sword are great, I hate fighting against them.
And the left swing and overhead is shorter than the longsword's swings. And it's slower, does less damage and costs 50% more. The greatswords may be slower, but they are also longer, do more damage and can weapon stun.
The nudge may be fast, but it has a VERY short range. You basically have to facehug. Facehugging puts you at greater risk for kicks and hiltslashes. It's a fun little tool to have, but mostly only useful in 1v1 situations anyway. Still, I think the knockdown should be removed.
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Other weapon types will be getting nudges, but they won't be the ones 1h no shield has right now. These nudges require animating (which I'm in the middle of doing). It's important to note that the current nudges will be getting a nerf so to speak. The effects won't be instant as they are now. Unfortunately, this couldn't be done without recoding nudges.
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Why not have no nudges? Seems kind of pointless and more of a funny gimmick. We have too many disabling type effects as it is
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Why not have no nudges? Seems kind of pointless and more of a funny gimmick. We have too many disabling type effects as it is
Melee combat is stale and largely benefits turtles/defensive playstyles. Now a days, just about anyone can block indefinitely if they really make the attempt. Holds are incredibly strong and allow you to hold your swing for ages, forcing an opponent to be slowed down by holding a block until one of your allies can get into position to strike. An interrupt is clearly beneficial to the overall advancement of the mod, and was the most requested feature by the community (http://forum.meleegaming.com/announcements/crpg-ingame-feature-what-is-it-you-want/). It's a new mechanic and it is going to take time for people to adjust to it and figure out what changes need to be made to their playstyle.
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Bit of a stretch to say its the most requested feature. It was a poll for "more depth to combat" and its debatable whether it adds depth. I think it dumbs down combat if you can press a button to disable someone, especially with it being easy to land and on a short cooldown.
I think its a general buff to shielders too for when their shield breaks, or if they put it away against shield breakers. Adding nudge to everyone will just be like having 2 types of kicks, and one is probably too much anyway imo
If blocking is too easy then why not nerf shields? Hold right mouse to block any direction with a huge force field is my idea of dumbed down blocking. Encourage people to use manual blocking weapons. If 1 hand without shield is not balance then buff the weapons but increase the penalty while using a shield.
Just seems like a lame way to beat people who can block effectively. Especially if all classes end up getting it.
It is a cool gimmick for now, but still in the future I don't envisage it adding real depth to combat
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everyone has respeced into 1h W/O :lol:
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If blocking is too easy then why not nerf shields? Hold right mouse to block any direction with a huge force field is my idea of dumbed down blocking. ...
Well, you have to face your opponent, otherwise they have a chance to hit you trough the shield.
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- Moves of 1h without shield are harder to follow than moves of 1h with shield.
Why exactly ?
- 1h are faster than 2h
No they aren't. With a 2h you can do early hits that will glance with 1h weapons. From the time of release, such swings hit faster.
And what are the benefits of 2h and 1h+ shield over 1h no shield?
2h:
- some weapons are longer than 1h and outrange cav
- deals more damage than 1h
- crushthrough weapons
- better animations (stab and right swing)
- hiltslashing and early hits
- heavier (blockstun)
1h+shield:
- blocks projectiles
- blocks multiple attacks in the same time but can't block peripherally like shieldless blocks
- blocks couch
I don't see your point of 1h no shield being so much worse it needs additional animation.
+stahp the derail you really asked for it
I see you just summarised all 2h weapons by bringing 2 out of 3 (forgot miaodao) best spamming weapons.
Right swing of NCS is still longer than Longsword's swings. Anyway I don't know about percentage of usage 2hs in NA but EU usually uses longer/slower 2hs. Longsword and bastard sword are great, I hate fighting against them.
Also note that I am not seeking for 2h buff so I don't really know your point now.
Then bring the "best spamming 1h" for comparison. Also a NCS right swing is slow, easy to chamber and still shorter than a longsword thrust. Additionally the difference in length with a longsword right or left swing is so small it comes down to footwork.
If blocking is too easy then why not nerf shields?
That's like, the opposite of a logical conclusion. Blocking is too easy and that makes shields less useful than what they were intended to be. Nerfing shields would just continue to unbalance things in the same direction as time already does.
Just seems like a lame way to beat people who can block effectively.
Like kicks, spam, chamberblocks and blockstun ?
Those nudges may be op right now, but given that you have to facehug, landing it isn't that easy and defending against it doesn't sound too hard, at least in duels. Maybe something has to be done to avoid abusing them in clusterfucks even though I suspect if you can land a nudge on someone in a clusterfuck your team is already winning by a large margin.
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That's like, the opposite of a logical conclusion. Blocking is too easy and that makes shields less useful than what they were intended to be. Nerfing shields would just continue to unbalance things in the same direction as time already does.
Point is apparently people are too good at manual blocking so they come up with these bs nudges, while at the same time they have these autoblock style shields and do nothing about that. Why should people who are actually practising to get good at blocking penalised while anyone can buy a shield that blocks in a huge angle infront of you up, left, right, down and also blocks ranged? And their initial idea is to give the nudge to the shielder/1 hand class. Its backward. They recently buffed 1 handers across the board and made a bunch 0 slot. So its also a buff for ranged in melee fights.
Tweak shields or introduce anti shield mechanics like stamina for holding it down, or having to time the shield use.
I don't see why people want to nerf people who defend well with manual blocking anyway, its one of the main things that makes the game enjoyable. Anyone being able to run in and press a button on you that has no counter that disables you for a bit is the opposite of depth.
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The Held-attack nudge is too fast for the potential of it imo, should be riskier.
Nudges definitely needs to stay, they are so much fun. In theory they are like kicks but you can use them while moving, and you can use them for different purposes which makes them soooo much fun to use. Example: I retired yesterday and running around as a peasant with a tiny hammer you cant really do much when multiple people are coming your way, but if you are lucky you can land a defensive nudge and send one back and then flee. Its great.
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Point is apparently people are too good at manual blocking so they come up with these bs nudges, while at the same time they have these autoblock style shields and do nothing about that. Why should people who are actually practising to get good at blocking penalised while anyone can buy a shield that blocks in a huge angle infront of you up, left, right, down and also blocks ranged? And their initial idea is to give the nudge to the shielder/1 hand class. Its backward. They recently buffed 1 handers across the board and made a bunch 0 slot. So its also a buff for ranged in melee fights.
Tweak shields or introduce anti shield mechanics like stamina for holding it down, or having to time the shield use.
I don't see why people want to nerf people who defend well with manual blocking anyway, its one of the main things that makes the game enjoyable. Anyone being able to run in and press a button on you that has no counter that disables you for a bit is the opposite of depth.
So basically your whole point is "1H SHIELD OP D:" and this has really nothing to do with nudges at all.
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Why exactly ?
because shielder attacking moves his shield around and as it's large object it's easier to follow current state of fighting, while 1h without shield just moves tiny object around without any significant body-bending (no matter how funny it sounds). Some people thought German GS was faster than Danish GS because of the feeling you get while fighting. German is thiner and that's why big object like danish seemes easier to "track"
No they aren't. With a 2h you can do early hits that will glance with 1h weapons. From the time of release, such swings hit faster.
Those early 2h have to be done from very short range and then 1h in very short range can do his early hits as well. right swing for 1h would be dangerous because most people move properly so they disable some attacks of the 1hander by their movement, forcing enemy's weapon to glance
Then bring the "best spamming 1h" for comparison. Also a NCS right swing is slow, easy to chamber and still shorter than a longsword thrust. Additionally the difference in length with a longsword right or left swing is so small it comes down to footwork.
Liuyedao or whatever is the name of that spammy thing, also I don't see big difference between chambering longsword and NCS rly...
Those nudges may be op right now, but given that you have to facehug, landing it isn't that easy and defending against it doesn't sound too hard, at least in duels. Maybe something has to be done to avoid abusing them in clusterfucks even though I suspect if you can land a nudge on someone in a clusterfuck your team is already winning by a large margin.
Wait for Byzantium to join server with even 5 1h no shield and enjoy the madness. As i mentioned earlier,it was easy as fuck to do that (nudge). People say that oh oh kick will keep your nudges away, the thing is that I want to kill him and if he decides to kick I will just slash him, no big deal but if he doesn't kick and plays safe, I will come closer and nudge that guy.
Nudge is super useful in crowd to eliminate single targets because they are just helpless for a while. It's like if there was a group of people turning off blocks of the enemies...
Also I forgot to say that since they increased the weight of 1hs, stunblocks rarely appear.
Also both classes 1h and 2h have some different but good animations and saying that 2h have their long stab doesn't mean that 1h don't have short, fast stab which is really good if you know how to use it. Same with long swings of 2h and fast leftswing of 1h and long right swing of 1h. Each attack has it's feature and that they are different from other class doesn't mean they are worse
EDIT:
I have forgotten about crush through among benefits of 2h against 1h but I've also forgotten about 1h no shield having more skillpoints available than 1h+shield.
Also people tend to forget that hitslashes which are "so so fast" usually deal lower damage than normal hit. I remember being hit by a guy with 10PS and MW Danish and I lost 10% hp. It is one of the extreme situations of low damage being dealt but usually it's still lower damage. You exaggerate 2hs' ability of hitslashing as 1h are no worse with their left-face-swing and polearms are commonly used to hitslash with right swing GLA, LWA, Bec, other slashing polearms. Those are not only 2h that hitslash
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Also both classes 1h and 2h have some different but good animations and saying that 2h have their long stab doesn't mean that 1h don't have short, fast stab which is really good if you know how to use it.
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My "fast" 1h stab is one of the slowest attacks.
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Some haters here forgot that 1h is best defensive class ingame and can deal with all kinds of problems on battlefield.
And 1h is class which milk most points from crowd fights , I like and respect that because it is way to go as 1h, and most of 1h weapons have similar weigt to longsword and Bastard, for example NCS and longsword, and it is 1h that have fast knockdown weapons that are not unbalanced but they have weight of GS, and 1h have 0 slots weapons that makes them perfect utility class and 1h is kind of king of cavalry nowadays.
but 2h op
anyway I love you all and belive that you have good intentions.
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haha, nice you turn this into a 2h is OP
discussion postulate again. :rolleyes:
A great thing about nudge is that it makes it more reasonable to carry a dagger. Putting away your main weapon and use nudge in a 2 vs. 1 = win. Still too powerful right now.
Generally I don't think 1h deserves to get their special skill because they are oh so weak. 1h w/o shield is strong enough and where would be the incentive to play this class if it wouldn't have the air of "I am special because I don't play the Heroes class(es)"? Then again I like the Idea of special skills for different weapon classes, let's see what Urist comes up with in the future.
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1h up, 2h can be whatever they want. I suggest we go back to the topic unless you want my posts to become long bullshit quoting lists ?
Nobody uses nudges except on teammates on EU_2. I tried for a while, without much success. Also v is really a bad key for this.
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I personally like the nudge ability, although I do not think it should affect someone who has their shield up (I never tried to use it against a shielder personally)
It just seems a bit odd that a punch to a raised shield would knock someone off balance while a strike with a weapon does not. Raise the Cooldown a bit and nerf the ability to stun shielders with a raised shield.
Also, for those who believe that 1/2h's should also get a nudge. No.
You guys are already powerful enough considering your attack do as much as great swords with the speed of most 1h weapons, plus your attacks are longer so your are not face hugging like some 1h have to. You already have a bonus for using 1/2h'ed weapons, and that ability to to use it in two hands and use it with a shield if need be.
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I would suggest nudge to work similar to punch, so that enemy's armour and the weight of gauntlets and str of attacker was taken in account. Also it shouldn't stop the enemy and should be blockable with shield.
support nerf but not it being block-able with a shield. I say keep one of the harder nudges(either the block or attack) affecting shield so turtlers cant just sit there. Maybe the block one since its technically a shove
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Only big issue with nudging is the ability to chain it into a kick and then get a free hit. The problem of course is kicking. Fuck kicking.
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The more mechanics the better I would say, obviously as long as their power is under control.
Flying carpets, <this should be a full stop (.) {Fixed} where the fuck are they!
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haha, nice you turn this into a 2h is OP discussion postulate again. :rolleyes:
A great thing about nudge is that it makes it more reasonable to carry a dagger. Putting away your main weapon and use nudge in a 2 vs. 1 = win. Still too powerful right now.
Generally I don't think 1h deserves to get their special skill because they are oh so weak. 1h w/o shield is strong enough and where would be the incentive to play this class if it wouldn't have the air of "I am special because I don't play the Heroes class(es)"? Then again I like the Idea of special skills for different weapon classes, let's see what Urist comes up with in the future.
2h should get pomel strike. Some polearms could get it as well, so long as they are doing an overhead, they just thrust with the shaft of the weapon *donk*.
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2h should get pomel strike.
Already animated that. Stuff kinda got put on hold though with this new game mode and that other thing.
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Already animated that. Stuff kinda got put on hold though with this new game mode and that other thing.
Fuck you, ya name dropping thing mentioning pleasure bandit!
I wuv yu <3
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Actually a new release of Cataclysm: DDA happened. Playing it is kinda above overhauling nudge atm. I did some small fixes though like increasing the cooldown to 5 seconds and switching knockdown conditions between normal nudge and attack+nudge.
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Actually a new release of Cataclysm: DDA happened. Playing it is kinda above overhauling nudge atm. I did some small fixes though like increasing the cooldown to 5 seconds and switching knockdown conditions between normal nudge and attack+nudge.
Bad. Bad, Urist.
I thought there was only one wench in your heart. :cry:
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I concur.
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Can we not have it so that nudge just interrupts attacks but does nothing against blocking opponents?
This would mean it is a way to combat held attacks breaking the stalemate situations described earlier, however the more difficult kick would be the only way to get through a block.
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Melee combat is stale and largely benefits turtles/defensive playstyles. Now a days, just about anyone can block indefinitely if they really make the attempt. Holds are incredibly strong and allow you to hold your swing for ages, forcing an opponent to be slowed down by holding a block until one of your allies can get into position to strike. An interrupt is clearly beneficial to the overall advancement of the mod, and was the most requested feature by the community (http://forum.meleegaming.com/announcements/crpg-ingame-feature-what-is-it-you-want/). It's a new mechanic and it is going to take time for people to adjust to it and figure out what changes need to be made to their playstyle.
if the block is too easy , why dont buff the swing speed or WM effect ? i feel CRPG is so much slower than native and sluggish, and i dont think lots of players have perfect block skill in native.
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Can we not have it so that nudge just interrupts attacks but does nothing against blocking opponents?
This would mean it is a way to combat held attacks breaking the stalemate situations described earlier, however the more difficult kick would be the only way to get through a block.
Nudge while holding atack would be useless, then...
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Already animated that. Stuff kinda got put on hold though with this new game mode and that other thing.
Can you give me more details about that?
PLZ!