cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Magikarp on May 01, 2011, 12:18:07 pm
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Alright, lots of people have missed this, because not a lot of people use this weapon these days.
Flamberge got nerfed from 48 damage to 46, but why?
Nothing was wrong with the flamberge last patch, now with the heirloom nerf, it gets a double nerf for no reason.
Edit: make that a quadruple one with the not sheatable and unbalanced tags.
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I don't really now. 48 to 46 is still manageable anyway I think. My MW KAS lost the same, but it was 36 cut before, so I lost a greater part of my total damage with 34 now.
I don't really understand why some items are changed without any player input. Flamberge is a formidable weapon in the hands of the good person, but it's not used much to justify this.
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Agreed, buff back to 48c. GLB has 46c and 88 speed.
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I agree, it kinda looses the point if you compare it to the highland claymore and great long bardiche, the damage nerf is a bit too much
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Now does as much as a great long axe which is ... decidedly odd. I hear tell in ancient times, the flamberge was used to fell trees.
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Now its even more useless than ever also nice price tag for such failure
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Less damage than the great long axe, good thinking cmpx! You've really nailed it this time!
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Less damage than the great long axe, good thinking cmpx! You've really nailed it this time!
What is wrong with that? Sounds perfectly fine to me.
The real flamberg was an overly expensive polearm made in the shape of a sword. Chopping was a secondary mode for its use.
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What is wrong with that? Sounds perfectly fine to me.
The real flamberg was an overly expensive polearm made in the shape of a sword. Chopping was a secondary mode for its use.
What's wrong with that? What's wrong with THAT? Are you kidding me?
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What's wrong with that? What's wrong with THAT? Are you kidding me?
Ironically you remind me of myself in the nodachi overnerf thread.
However,agree that flamberge (nevermind i said "nodachi" before lol) should probably get some damage back.
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What's wrong with that? What's wrong with THAT? Are you kidding me?
Well ... adherence to physics for one. The weight of a sword is balanced along the blade, the weight of an axe is all on the head. The most deadly point of a weapon is it's head, it is the point travelling the fastest during a swing. So, when a weapon is also heaviest at the head, the impact force is multiplied substantially. That is why a great long axe could hack down an Oak, when a flamberge could not.
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Well ... adherence to physics for one. The weight of a sword is balanced along the blade, the weight of an axe is all on the head. The most deadly point of a weapon is it's head, it is the point travelling the fastest during a swing. So, when a weapon is also heaviest at the head, the impact force is multiplied substantially. That is why a great long axe could hack down an Oak, when a flamberge could not.
Nuff said.
/thread
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*Sigh* When will people learn that realism has nothing to do with balance?
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*Sigh* When will people learn that realism has nothing to do with balance?
"Oh no my weapon is not better than this other weapon, please make it better than this other weapon. Don't balance it."
With that being said, lets compare the weapons in question. Brown = same. Green = better. Red = Worse, Blue = Side notes.
Flamberge
difficulty: 18 Note: All builds min/max on multiples of three.
speed rating: 86
thrust damage: 24 pierce
swing damage: 46 cut
weapon length: 152 Length is a huge advantage
Can't use on horseback
Can not be sheathed
?unbalanced? (Not listed but is said to be)
Great Long Axe
difficulty: 16 Note: All builds min/max on multiples of three, so users get 18 strength anyways
speed rating: 92
thrust damage: 16 blunt
swing damage: 46 cut
weapon length: 125
Can't use on horseback
Bonus against Shield
?Unbalanced? (Not listed but is said to be)
Hey, look at that they both have pros and cons that even out into a pretty sweet balance.
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My MW KAS lost the same, but it was 36 cut before, so I lost a greater part of my total damage with 34 now.
Your Knightly Arming Sword didn't lose any damage. Heirlooming itself got nerfed. Instead of +5 damage and MW you now get +3. That's the same for all heirlooms for swords and stuff.
My MW sidesword went from 36 cut to 30 cut. My heavy steel pick from 36 pierce to 34 pierce.
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they really made a cry thread about 2 damg.... its the longest sword in the game, dose a ton of damg, idk whats wrong with it, seems fine to me
longest weapon beside pikes, has 4 diff attacks, highest damg, seems fair in every way
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*Sigh* When will people learn that realism has nothing to do with balance?
Lets talk about balance then. Balance in Mount and Blade has always been based in reality. The choice between axe and sword is your preference for either maximum damage, or versatility (ie speed, reach, and alternate piercing attack). Here is your balance; trade off in one area for higher standing in another. What you seem to seek is the flamberge to be superior to everything in every area, which isn't balance.
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they really made a cry thread about 2 damg.... its the longest sword in the game, dose a ton of damg, idk whats wrong with it, seems fine to me
longest weapon beside pikes, has 4 diff attacks, highest damg, seems fair in every way
It uses polearm animations mostly, only right attack doesn't. Making the magical 152 range be reduced to 130.
Flamberge should be the hardest hitting weapon ingame along with the Great Long Bardiche. Yet the Great Long Axe beats both by mere speed. Plus the latter two have bonus against shield. I don't see any reason atm to choose Flamberge.
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Lets talk about balance then. Balance in Mount and Blade has always been based in reality. The choice between axe and sword is your preference for either maximum damage, or versatility (ie speed, reach, and alternate piercing attack). Here is your balance; trade off in one area for higher standing in another. What you seem to seek is the flamberge to be superior to everything in every area, which isn't balance.
Great let's realism balance now! How much blocking a heavy sword strikes will the wooden pole of your axe withstand, one? two?
/realism
Flamberge nerf is fine, in order with all the other 2h nerfs
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Great let's realism balance now! How much blocking a heavy sword strikes will the wooden pole of your axe withstand, one? two?
/realism
Flamberge nerf is fine, in order with all the other 2h nerfs
Krampe! You dont know what you've started..... I'll rouse the Brigade into an angry swarm and we'll smash HRE in strategus. YOU JUST WAIT!!!!
I can't see 2 damage making a massive difference either way. On one side I think "if it's -2 damage, why bother" and in another I think "will that really change my playstle?".
I'm more bothered about not being able to use a board shield.
EDIT: Hmm re-reading the thread I guess when you compare flam to other 2h's it does lose more of its appeal. I'll still use it when I play again though. I think.
@Marathon : Although I agree that it's sensible to make builds divisible by 3, not all builds do it because they might have an extra 4 skill points to use.
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As somene pointed out before, M&B balance is based on realism as it uses weapon models of real weapons and basing on their weight, lenght and shape the game balance it self. It seems like the major balance issue is regarding nodachi and flamberge and this is propably becaouse they were not common weapons, rather weapons with ceremonial purpose. Their value in fight was never proved and this is the main problem I think. They just dont match to the realistic balance of the M&B's weapons cose.... they are a bit unrealistic.
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Great let's realism balance now! How much blocking a heavy sword strikes will the wooden pole of your axe withstand, one? two?
/realism
Well, more than it would take to ruin a sword with strikes from an axe. It would depend on the manner of the swing and the manner of the block or parry. Regardless, you offer an example which is not currently implemented in the mechanics of the game. Realism is desirable, although for it to be balanced it must be implemented in a balanced manner.
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...YOU JUST WAIT!!!!
ALL PRAISE TEH FLAMBURGER!!
maybe it would have been more clear this way
"Flamberge nerf is fine, in order with all the other 2h nerfs ..."<- (irony addendum) :D
My GGS lost 5 pierce and you whine about 2 cut... <-- (no irony) ;D
Well, more than it would take to ruin a sword with strikes from an axe. It would depend on the manner of the swing and the manner of the block or parry. Regardless, you offer an example which is not currently implemented in the mechanics of the game. Realism is desirable, although for it to be balanced it must be implemented in a balanced manner.
BS how about axe vs axe? gogo blocking
It's a game, games are never realistic, go larp
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Flamberge should be the hardest hitting weapon ingame along with the Great Long Bardiche.
Nice statement. Care to explain why it *should*?
BS how about axe vs axe? gogo blocking
It's a game, games are never realistic, go larp
Axe vs. axe will chip the pole and slide. It will take quite a few hits to do enough damage to seriously weaken it especially when it hits a different section each time. In addition two longaxes will not be blocking each other pole against blade. It will be a lot of dodging. Blocks will attempt to either deflect with the head of the axe from long reach or close-in and bind pole on pole.
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Nice statement. Care to explain why it *should*?
It's the most expensive and big weapon ingame, while being one of the slowest. The only good thing should be the damage and reach. Both weapons used to fulfill these roles, now they can be fulfilled by much faster weapons.
This is just plain wrong.
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It's a game, games are never realistic, go larp
Very old and very uninformed argument. All games are realistic on their own level; they all depict archetypes present in our own reality, thus to say games are not at all realistic is false. You seem to presuppose that realism is an absolute, that it is binary, either there or not. This is an incorrect assumption. Game elements can have pretensions to realism without outright embracing realism. Mount and Blade is an example of that.
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Very old and very uninformed argument. All games are realistic on their own level; they all depict archetypes present in our own reality, thus to say games are not at all realistic is false. You seem to presuppose that realism is an absolute, that it is binary, either there or not. This is an incorrect assumption. Game elements can have pretensions to realism without outright embracing realism. Mount and Blade is an example of that.
Old and uninformed? Oh when you say so, i disagree.
Having archetyps presented in our reality? So they are copies. Imagine you copy a picture, there is one REAL one and one copy.
MB is a example for embracing realism? MB playing in a fictional environment - Calradia, inhabitated by characters which have super powers to swing heavy weapons indefinatly completly untouched by injuries (horses too) and can only fight swinging those weapons in four directions?
Following your logic you can say that Super Mario pretense realism too. He's a plumber, we have that in reality.
There is no realism in MB only a fictional copy aka. balance.
P.S. damn you, i had to look up several words you used (and used them again :P)
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Old and uninformed? Oh when you say so, i disagree.
Having archetyps presented in our reality? So they are copies. Imagine you copy a picture, there is one REAL one and one copy.
MB is a example for embracing realism? MB playing in a fictional environment - Calradia, inhabitated by characters which have super powers to swing heavy weapons indefinatly completly untouched by injuries (horses too) and can only fight swinging those weapons in four directions?
Following your logic you can say that Super Mario pretense realism too. He's a plumber, we have that in reality.
There is no realism in MB only a fictional copy aka. balance.
P.S. damn you, i had to look up several words you used (and used them again :P)
Consider Mario, I am less interested in his profession, more interested in the fact he is subject to a natural phenomenon of our world - gravity. That is an mechanism of realism, ie, a rule which exists in our world which has been applied within a fictional context (you can scoff at this if you wish, it doesn't make it any less true). Rules like mass and gravity are particularly relevant when addressing which does more damage, a sword or an axe. The rules dictate an axe.
A fictional context may be fictional, but that does not presuppose it is devoid of reality (as the above example demonstrates). If there was no reality - no consistency with our world; what we would see would be alien to our eyes, like an entirely new colour. So while Caladria is fictional, many of its mechanisms are based in reality, and are constructed ingame within the limitations of technology and feasibility. When I say based, I do not mean constructed of in their entirety. Axes and swords do not perform precisely as they do in reality, but they do perform like them. Their performance is based in reality, and limited by desire or feasibility of design. While you would like to have unlimited attack directions, I don't think we will see that until Microsoft invents the Holo Deck.
Honestly, I don't see the problem. A Long Axe has the ability to destroy shields. A Flamberge has massively longer reach and a powerful penetrative attack. Their damage is equal. Whilst I think the Long Axe should be more damaging, as it stands, it is almost balanced.
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I don't think the flamberg was ever really in need of a damage nerf. It had appropriate drawbacks before.
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Long Axe should do the same damage? You make me laugh so hard.
It's good that people like you aren't developing this game.
Can any admin give any word on this? Perhaps a buff is planned like Greatswords are getting?
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the problem lies in people's perception of this game being based on realism or not. Obviously if u dont want to consider any realism in this game, even short sword can have more dmg than great axe. I personally think that it is invalid to say that M&B shouldn't have anything to do with realism. WOW shouldn't be realistic as character there can Carry weapons bigger than themselves and a Little dagger may be more powerful than a 2h sword because its a golden dagger of pwownage. For me it is clear: WOW not realistic, M&B realistic therefore it should stick to realism when it comes to balance. I support my opinion with the fact that M&B was advertised as 'Medieval Knight simulator'.
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Yeah, but realism accounts for bad balance. For example, it would make tincans immune to all cutting damage, basically. Also, cRPG has not been advertised as a Medieval Knight Simulator.
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I rock rocks with the long voulge and the flameberg is longer (on certain swings) faster and does more damage.
a perfectly viable weapon
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I rock rocks with the long voulge and the flameberg is longer (on certain swings) faster and does more damage.
a perfectly viable weapon
I rock more with the Great Long Axe, the speed definatly helps on str builds where you don't have much wpf.
That's the whole point, Flamberge and Great Long Bardiche need a buff, whether it's realistic or not. It's for balance.
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It's the most expensive and big weapon ingame, while being one of the slowest. The only good thing should be the damage and reach. Both weapons used to fulfill these roles, now they can be fulfilled by much faster weapons.
This is just plain wrong.
It is the longest 2H weapon, it does very high damage, it has a good thrust attack. It is one of the best weapons in the game, but most expensive does not necessarily means "best" in everything. Not in the game and most certainly not in real life. It reality it was an over expensive piece of unneeded **** which is why the vast majority of fighters simply used a polearm instead. It is balanced in the game.
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Consider Mario, I am less interested in his profession, more interested in the fact he is subject to a natural phenomenon of our world - gravity. That is an mechanism of realism, ie, a rule which exists in our world which has been applied within a fictional context (you can scoff at this if you wish, it doesn't make it any less true). Rules like mass and gravity are particularly relevant when addressing which does more damage, a sword or an axe. The rules dictate an axe.
A fictional context may be fictional, but that does not presuppose it is devoid of reality (as the above example demonstrates). If there was no reality - no consistency with our world; what we would see would be alien to our eyes, like an entirely new colour. So while Caladria is fictional, many of its mechanisms are based in reality, and are constructed ingame within the limitations of technology and feasibility. When I say based, I do not mean constructed of in their entirety. Axes and swords do not perform precisely as they do in reality, but they do perform like them. Their performance is based in reality, and limited by desire or feasibility of design. While you would like to have unlimited attack directions, I don't think we will see that until Microsoft invents the Holo Deck.
Honestly, I don't see the problem. A Long Axe has the ability to destroy shields. A Flamberge has massively longer reach and a powerful penetrative attack. Their damage is equal. Whilst I think the Long Axe should be more damaging, as it stands, it is almost balanced.
Gravity, hmm, like vertically going up straight pipes?
In an environment following real world physics only kinetic energy dictates the damage not the type of a melee weapon or its weight alone.
A fictional context maybe fictional?! *cough*
Only your very nice phrasing made me read your post further.
To make it short: Adapting small concepts of reality into a game does NOT make it realistic,
carrying out as much aspects as possible in the given limits does.
Injuries of falling from a horse at full speed? No! Possible? Yes! Realistic NO!
But it would break the game for cav -> Balance
If you think otherwise you ... uhm maybe better stay away from weapons of any kind and especially of bringing weapons into schools *smile* j/k realism != reality ;D
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It is the longest 2H weapon, it does very high damage, it has a good thrust attack. It is one of the best weapons in the game, but most expensive does not necessarily means "best" in everything. Not in the game and most certainly not in real life. It reality it was an over expensive piece of unneeded **** which is why the vast majority of fighters simply used a polearm instead. It is balanced in the game.
It's more like a polearm atm with all the polearm animations cutting our weapons length to a pity 130.
The thrust attack is almost useless, the best onehanders do more damage on that point.
Damage needs a buff, whether you like it or not, this weapon should not be mediocre compared to the great long axe.
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Interesting how your math works. The Flam is 152 reach which is cut by polearms animation to a pity 130. But you compare it to the great long axe which has a reach stat of 125 and use the same polearm animations, which cut its length to... help me with the math here please.
Flam has by far the best combination of range and damage and it pays with some speed. If I would be the one doing its stats I'd nerf its cut damage to hell and significantly boost its thrust - treat it like an odd pike for 2H users.
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Why don't you use a GLA then?
If you like the style of Flamberge that mean style is more important than anything so you should deal with a nerf, no?
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Gravity, hmm, like vertically going up straight pipes?
In an environment following real world physics only kinetic energy dictates the damage not the type of a melee weapon or its weight alone.
A fictional context maybe fictional?! *cough*
Only your very nice phrasing made me read your post further.
The fact that Mario is capable of transportation through 'Pipes' (much like sucking coke through a straw) does not negate the fact he is subject to gravity when outside them.
A point more relevant. I seem to remember in one Mario game, you were capable of collecting a powerup that added wings to Mario and enabled flight. Consider this - what if Mario by default had Wings and was incapable of flight? What if by picking up a powerup he then lost those Wings and was suddenly capable of flight? Would that make sense to you?
In my opinion, a sword doing more damage than an axe makes as much sense as a winged Mario that cannot fly.
To make it short: Adapting small concepts of reality into a game does NOT make it realistic,
carrying out as much aspects as possible in the given limits does.
Injuries of falling from a horse at full speed? No! Possible? Yes! Realistic NO!
But it would break the game for cav -> Balance
Reality is where we exist. Realism is a concept that can be applied by desire to that which does not exist. Realism is not binary, it varies by the quantity of it's application. I'd consider something like Team Fortress 2 less realistic than Mount and Blade. However, I'd consider Operation Flashpoint more realistic. Within the context of a game realism is only ever unbalanced when it is applied without consideration to balance. Which is not my desire. If I were to implement damage on forced dismount, I would not do so without first (for one example) increasing the survivability of horses.
To make it long: Adapting concepts of reality into a game makes it more realistic than it was without them. You continue to assert (with much frothing) that games are either realistic or they are not. To the worrying stage where I think you believe that because Caladria does not exist in a physical sense, then it is not subject to any rule which exists in our reality. Therefore; if in Caladria horses were to ride knights and people walked around on their hands and communicated by clapping their heels together, you would not have cause to complain!
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This seems to be a whine thread plain and simple 2 less dmg? really?
there are lots of weapons across the board that got dmg and speed nerfs and many on weapons that nobody ever complained about.
The weapon I used most was the long hafted knobbed mace.
my masterworked one
went from 36blunt to 32
speed from 97 to 93
and requirement from 12 to 15str
it still works fine and so does the flamberge no need to complain about every change. if the flamberge isnt good enough for you use a different weapon.
I'm using the recently buffed scythe and it's 25dmg and 79 speed is fine with me
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First of all, all of you realism vs balance discussers, get out of this topic please, i've had enough of offtopic conversations.
Secondly, I don't seem to get why people think the GLA is worse than the Flamberge, with the huge gap in speed it's clearly the weapon to go for.
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1. Buy a GLA
2. Face all 2H users that out-range you with their 120 reach swords
3. Realize that you do not have an effective thrust attack
4. Profit
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1. Buy a GLA
2. Face all 2H users that out-range you with their 120 reach swords
3. Realize that you do not have an effective thrust attack
4. Profit
Not an effective thrust attack? I definatly don't agree on that point. I've seen more than enough GLA users use their blunt stab to it's fullest.
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Not an effective thrust attack? I definatly don't agree on that point. I've seen more than enough GLA users use their blunt stab to it's fullest.
...But the flamberge doesn't have one? It has the same animation, more length, and more damage? Definitely not.
Why is everyone ignoring my post which shows that the comparison sited holds no water? They weapons in said example have clear pros and cons that balance out really well.
Oh wait, the people who matter -- the devs, do know.
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...But the flamberge doesn't have one? It has the same animation, more length, and more damage? Definitely not.
Why is everyone ignoring my post which shows that the comparison sited holds no water? They weapons in said example have clear pros and cons that balance out really well.
Oh wait, the people who matter -- the devs, do know.
Ask yourself this: should a weapon that fast deal that much damage?