cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Robert on March 14, 2013, 09:46:59 am

Title: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Robert on March 14, 2013, 09:46:59 am
Both qq and wondering what will be the next archery nerf?
Its odd that since all the nerfs there seems to be lots more archers, it just don't make sence.

One thing tho if archers cant hold bow and jump surely all others sould have same restrictions, like the overhead jump chop that seems to be unblockable.

qq rage time.
I play cRPG as its the best archery game around but I am getting a little pissed off with all the shit archers have to take, no other class gets fucked over time and time again.

The archary comunity on cRPG is quite large and we all understand that range gives us a big advantage up till we get face to face then melee has the overwhelming advantage, why don't you stop nerfing archary and ask melee why they don't take a shield
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Haboe on March 14, 2013, 01:57:17 pm
Quote from: Robert on March 14, 2013, 09:46:59 am
we all understand that range gives us a big advantage up till we get face to face then melee has the overwhelming advantage

Yea in range you have the Absolute advantage, in melee the melee-classes have and overwhelming advantage... Whats wrong with that?


Quote from: Robert on March 14, 2013, 09:46:59 am
why don't you stop nerfing archary and ask melee why they don't take a shield

So you wanna force players into shielders? Take a pikeman, he has a pike/ longspear, and a sidearm(pole). You want to force that class into giving up his quarterstaff and make him have a shield?



I'm against archery nerfing, i'm pro redefining... Give them more accuracy, less damage. Skilled archers will triumph, they will focus on enemy ranged (because they are now accurate enough to shoot that far) and QQ'ing will be less.
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Gurnisson on March 14, 2013, 02:02:20 pm
Quote from: Haboe on March 14, 2013, 01:57:17 pm
Take a pikeman, he has a pike/ longspear, and a sidearm(pole). You want to force that class into giving up his quarterstaff and make him have a shield?

I'd go pike + shield and no backup if not for the unsheathable tag on the pike..
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Prpavi on March 14, 2013, 02:09:53 pm
Quote from: Robert on March 14, 2013, 09:46:59 am
Both qq and wondering what will be the next archery nerf?
Its odd that since all the nerfs there seems to be lots more archers, it just don't make sence.

One thing tho if archers cant hold bow and jump surely all others sould have same restrictions, like the overhead jump chop that seems to be unblockable.

qq rage time.
I play cRPG as its the best archery game around but I am getting a little pissed off with all the shit archers have to take, no other class gets fucked over time and time again.

The archary comunity on cRPG is quite large and we all understand that range gives us a big advantage up till we get face to face then melee has the overwhelming advantage, why don't you stop nerfing archary and ask melee why they don't take a shield



aaaand theres your -1

Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Kafein on March 14, 2013, 02:12:59 pm
Ladies and gentleman, I present you cRPG, the best archery game !

You can shoot at real humans that can't shoot back ! They are there defenseless and to be killed freely, only for your enjoyment !
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Byrdi on March 14, 2013, 02:18:54 pm
I tried archery the other day on my STF (and it was not a troll build, like I usually play them as archer). I was really surprised of how accurate they are. I didn't even go full wpf in archery.

Anyway the archers don't have that such a big disadvantage in melee as they used to. They can actually be just as potent as crossbowers are now, because of the many new 0 slot weapons.
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: FrugFrug on March 14, 2013, 03:06:05 pm
Archery receives nerf after nerf yet is still quite strong and in my opinion finally balanced...  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Blackzilla on March 14, 2013, 03:13:02 pm
EDIT thought he wanted archery nerfed* My pic shall be shared later lol
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: FrugFrug on March 14, 2013, 03:15:04 pm
That is probably an arrow from a peasant archer, because with the new Beta server all projectiles stick even if they do no damage.
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Blackzilla on March 14, 2013, 03:16:10 pm
No it was a guy with a longbow, might have glanced or something, but this picture is meant for another type of thread!
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Keshian on March 14, 2013, 03:23:30 pm
As archery is now it often takes 4-6 arrows to kill one person on NA servers with 9 powerdraw, masterwork longbow, masterwork bodkins thanks to the overwhelming number of strentgh builds in 60+ armor and often riding warhorses/cataphracts/etc.  - it takes one hit from them to kill the archer.  They just have to run straight toward an archer and unless you get a headshot they will kill you, far easier as plate armored cavalrymen (many many of those now with marketplace making gold easy).  Even xbowers get to wear heavy armor.  Archer are the most fragile characters on the map and yet now you are weighing them down with 40 lbs of gear just for taking 2 stacks of arrows a bow , light armor and a tiny 0 slot weapon.  it doesn't even make logical or historical sense that archers arrows stacks should each weigh more than a flamberge or as much as a great maul.

Can we please get some people on the item balancing team that are not meleers who all hate archers that dont just stand around to be butchered by them in their tin can outfits.  Caavlry can so easily kill ranged right now its ridiculous and now any ability to dodge a lance has been thrown out the window by nerfing their mobility completely - same with being able to dodge xbow bolts and arrows.  Its stupid to have 6 athletics and move slower than many of the guys in 40-50 armor on the battlefield with 4-5 athletics.  There is no reason to support unskilled players by nerfing archers into the ground to make them feel better running around with their danish greatsword spamming every direction while not even attempting to dodge, use terrain impediments, a shield,  ally ranged, or ally cavalry to deal with enemy ranged.
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Son Of Odin on March 14, 2013, 03:28:30 pm
Keshian it doesn't make much historical sense either that archers just run away every time they see something even remotely threatening.
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Macropus on March 14, 2013, 03:32:38 pm
Quote from: Kafein on March 14, 2013, 02:12:59 pm
Ladies and gentleman, I present you cRPG, the best archery game !

You can shoot at real humans that can't shoot back ! They are there defenseless and to be killed freely, only for your enjoyment !
What kind of shit is that, archers are the hardest class to make kills and survive on battlefield.
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on March 14, 2013, 03:36:46 pm
Quote from: Son Of Odin on March 14, 2013, 03:28:30 pm
Keshian it doesn't make much historical sense either that archers just run away every time they see something even remotely threatening.

What would lightly armored archers do against men at arms in medium and heavy armor coming at them?  The public servers are not how "battles" went down in the middle ages.  Archers would be supported by infantry and possibly cavalry and if the enemy infantry got through your infantry ranks, you best believe the archers are turning tail and running.  They would also charge in when their own infantry had the advantage and help kill people who were disabled or engaged.

I don't see why archers running away is any justification for nerfing them to hell.   Maybe you should be protecting your own archers instead of being kited by someone who's lighter and faster than you. 

But this is c-rpg, where you can keep running into the same wall and if you cry enough on the forums, the devs will remove the wall instead of expecting you to walk around it.
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Malaclypse on March 14, 2013, 03:43:01 pm
Quote from: Keshian on March 14, 2013, 03:23:30 pm
Archer are the most fragile characters on the map and yet now you are weighing them down with 40 lbs of gear just for taking 2 stacks of arrows a bow , light armor and a tiny 0 slot weapon.


You realize there are archers in your clan who wear heavier/better protecting armor than me (I'm dedicated melee) on a regular basis. Seriously, light armor, lol. Every time I see Dildos wearing a Light Kuyak or you wearing an Elite Cavalry Robe I die a little inside.

Anyways, I do agree that the arrow weight thing was a poor choice. Archer's couldn't kite as well if there were more 24+ Agility melee builds and if Strength based archery like your build were more worthwhile, but both of those subsets of builds lacked and still lack incentives compared to their counterparts. Instead of buffing them, arrows were just made to weigh as much as a few bowling balls. It's a solution, to be sure, just not a very good one.
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Tzar on March 14, 2013, 03:47:29 pm
I think archery is somewhat balanced now, Gj Devs  :wink:
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: karasu on March 14, 2013, 03:57:32 pm
Honestly I don't see any big problem still, when playing on my archer. Extremely viable.

The only thing that makes me sad is that I can't do that many trick jumps anymore with the arrow+bow weight.  :cry:
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: oprah_winfrey on March 14, 2013, 04:20:57 pm
Quote from: Malaclypse on March 14, 2013, 03:43:01 pm
Elite Cavalry Robe

Shield body armor combo. Must nerf.
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: karasu on March 14, 2013, 04:24:49 pm
Shhhh.... No tears now, only dreams.



visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Penitent on March 14, 2013, 04:26:05 pm
Archery has gotten nerfed over and over, and people will always call for more nerfs...not because they are OP, but because they are annoying.  People in the real middle ages called for nerfs against archers too.  (considered them dishonorable, its not right for a peasant with a bow to kill a knight, trying to outlaw xbows, etc).  It's just the way it goes.

Even with all the nerfs, they are still viable (none of the nerfs in themselves were HUGE, just a lot of little ones).  I suggest we just leave it be.
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Son Of Odin on March 14, 2013, 05:32:03 pm
Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on March 14, 2013, 03:36:46 pm
(click to show/hide)

Pro kiting I see. Archers who complain a lot are mostly just unable to adapt the new style to play. Have a look at EU 1 for example. I see a new generation of archers with a decent melee weapon + 1 stack of arrows. That's what I've been doing for a while now with my archer alt (lvl 31, you can easily have ps 6. very viable in melee especially with 2h weapons). You have no reason to run away from a fight once you drop your bow and start slashing with your sword or axe. To me the recent increase of this style is an improvement to the metagame of crpg.
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on March 14, 2013, 06:00:05 pm
Quote from: Son Of Odin on March 14, 2013, 05:32:03 pm
Pro kiting I see. Archers who complain a lot are mostly just unable to adapt the new style to play. Have a look at EU 1 for example. I see a new generation of archers with a decent melee weapon + 1 stack of arrows. That's what I've been doing for a while now with my archer alt (lvl 31, you can easily have ps 6. very viable in melee especially with 2h weapons). You have no reason to run away from a fight once you drop your bow and start slashing with your sword or axe. To me the recent increase of this style is an improvement to the metagame of crpg.

I'm pro people playing in a logical fashion.  If you're a lightly armored archer with a 0 slot hand axe and a plated 2h hero is getting into melee range, I wouldn't expect the archer to stand his ground...

Hell sometimes I run away from a large infantry mob if I go down the wrong alley or get dismounted in the wrong place.  I'm certainly not a "scared" player, I have no issues marching into certain death to try and take out as many people as I can before dying.  But at the same time, if I can live to fight another day (aka find the bulk of my teammates to fight with) then I will certainly do that. 

I don't see kiting as a problem, I see the moronic teammates of mine who have 8 guys chasing 1 archer (when there's still a lot of enemies alive) as the problem.  I don't think there was ever a "problem" with archers "kiting".  Nobodies forcing you to march up the hill that the enemy archers are camping on, that's your decision.

What I would suggest for people who are afraid of being kited by archers, protect your own archers who can reach out and touch the enemy archers.  Or only do it in certain situations. 

There's logical solutions to everyone's "problems" but people are too stubborn to actually adapt to the conditions on the battlefield (my wall analogy) so they, and the devs, would rather nerf classes than expect people to adapt (as real armies had to do as well).

I'm sure people in the middle ages complained about archers and ranged as well, they certainly have the advantage when they are at a distance you can't hit them with melee, but once you close the gap, they are at the disadvantage.  I just don't ever see the justification for the nerfs in c-rpg when the problem wasnt' the classes being nerfed, but the stubborn/ignorant players who choose to keep running into the wall instead of finding a way around it.


*DISCLAIMER* I'm a 1h/shield/polearm cavalry player and have been for technically 13 gens, but 16 in reality.  So I'm not a big fan of archers, they fuck up my courser.  But just because I personally "don't like them" isn't a justification for making their whole class into a gimped class.
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Vodner on March 14, 2013, 06:02:59 pm
Quote
If you're a lightly armored archer with a 0 slot hand axe and a plated 2h hero is getting into melee range, I wouldn't expect the archer to stand his ground...
With the new 0-slot 1h, it is now possible to make a 1h/bow hybrid with a decent sidearm, and still have a two-slot bow with two stacks of arrows.

Unfortunately, meleeing with a short weapon and 20kg of arrows is pretty rough. It's usually worth dropping the bow first.

Quote
What I would suggest for people who are afraid of being kited by archers, protect your own archers who can reach out and touch the enemy archers.  Or only do it in certain situations. 
There should never, ever be a build that hard-counters another build to the point where it is practically impossible for one to kill the other without help.
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on March 14, 2013, 06:06:46 pm
Most of the new 0 slot 1h's are way too overpowered (IMO).  But you do have a valid point there, they are capable of standing and fighting now that they have decent 0 slot 1h's...if they choose not to put any points into PS or WPF into 1h, that's their choice, but I wouldn't want to hear their QQ then.

I'm not saying you need help to kill archers if you're infantry, I kill archers all the time when I get dismounted, and did before the archery weight nerfs.  I'm suggesting if people are dying to archers or being kited by them, maybe they should change the way they are playing instead of crying about it on the forums.   Why would people expect to be able to catch someone who is wearing lighter armor than themselves, and has more athletics than themselves?  Doesn't that seem a little fucked up and unreal expectations to you?

Every class has always had another counter in the game besides itself, so people complaining is really just their lack or unwillingness to adapt to what's actually happening in game.  Instead people choose to keep running into the wall until the devs remove the wall, and I think that's just ridiculous.
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Son Of Odin on March 14, 2013, 06:11:18 pm
Well crying on forums has pretty much 0 effect on what will be nerfed. Mainly because there is a nerf thread for every imaginable class or weapon in the game.
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on March 14, 2013, 06:13:10 pm
Not IMO, I've been a forum warrior for probably 2 years now (or will be in April or May of this year).  It always seems like whatever is getting the most QQ on the forums usually ends up being nerfed in the next patch.  Which I've stated before, is ridiculous because you can't really get a feel for player opinions based on who posts on the forums, I'd say at least 80-90% of the people never post or read the forums who play the game.
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: MrShine on March 14, 2013, 06:13:15 pm
Quote from: MrShine on November 01, 2012, 04:55:48 am
Wait, I'm getting a vision from the future!

...archery change nerfs athletics...encourages heavier str archers...
...players will forget archer accuracy & movement were nerfed...will only notice taking lots of damage...
...more crying will ensure... rage posts about getting 2 shot....calls to nerf archery damage...

You can take that to the fucking bank.

God I love quoting myself.  The endless cycle of archery nerfs, brief contentedness, followed by the whines of the many.

Time to make a new sig.
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Penitent on March 14, 2013, 06:17:43 pm
Quote from: Son Of Odin on March 14, 2013, 06:11:18 pm
Well crying on forums has pretty much 0 effect on what will be nerfed. Mainly because there is a nerf thread for every imaginable class or weapon in the game.

Noooo...crying gets attention of other players, and finds commiseration.  Groups of players crying creates interest and draws attention to their complaint.  Groups of crying people can influence other people, and so on.

You see, 2h is the most played class, most successful class, and one of the least nerfed classes (maybe only 1h has been nerfed less).  The most annoying class to 2h players are the ranged classes...who by extension are the most complained about class.  They also happen to be the most nerfed classes.

So, the largest group of players are complaining about the same class who happens to be their counter, and is the most frequently nerfed class.

Coincidence?  That's one hell of a coincidence. :)
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: blackrose_Baron_Geoff on March 14, 2013, 06:21:25 pm
Quote from: MrShine on March 14, 2013, 06:13:15 pm
God I love quoting myself.  The endless cycle of archery nerfs, brief contentedness, followed by the whines of the many.

Time to make a new sig.


Agree'd    I would love to see the archery nerf's done to 2h or other melee classes   ( all swords Now weigh 10 X there weight ) 
                                                                                                                                     ( shield's no longer have huge force shield that blocks all incoming ranged attacks )
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Son Of Odin on March 14, 2013, 06:23:15 pm
Are you maybe mixing qq with sensible, well structured and reasonable suggestions which may have some effect on something?
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Joker86 on March 14, 2013, 06:28:41 pm
Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on March 14, 2013, 03:36:46 pm
I don't see why archers running away is any justification for nerfing them to hell.   Maybe you should be protecting your own archers instead of being kited by someone who's lighter and faster than you. 

But this is c-rpg, where you can keep running into the same wall and if you cry enough on the forums, the devs will remove the wall instead of expecting you to walk around it.

Oh come on Cracka. That last sentence applies to you as well, always the same walls. Are you again trying to tell us that kiting is okay, because if you are slower than the kiter you shouldn't go after him? Again completely ignoring the fact that if you have to choose between a) ignoring an archer and risking of getting shot in the back or b) going after him and disabling both of you for that battle, that option b) is the better one, because it's a stalemate at least, wheras a) means an advantage for the enemy team.

Quote from: Keshian on March 14, 2013, 03:23:30 pm
As archery is now it often takes 4-6 arrows to kill one person on NA servers with 9 powerdraw, masterwork longbow, masterwork bodkins thanks to the overwhelming number of strentgh builds in 60+ armor and often riding warhorses/cataphracts/etc.  - it takes one hit from them to kill the archer.  They just have to run straight toward an archer and unless you get a headshot they will kill you, far easier as plate armored cavalrymen (many many of those now with marketplace making gold easy).

Well, I don't deny that it could be complicated for one archer to take down one 2hd-Kuyak-hero. That's why I believe that archers are basically UP, their stats (dmg, etc.) are horrible on the paper. But what about two archers against two 2hd? And what about ten archers vs. ten 2hd? The more archers you have, the more difficult it is to approach them.

And yes, in melee you sometimes need only one strike to score a kill. But while getting in melee range you are under the constant danger of being lanced or shot, and as you have to move it is much more difficult to stay aware than when you are standing still or even are sitting in a good position with a lot of cover. And once you reached melee where you can kill with a single strike, you can also die with a single mistake. The percentage of dead archers compared to missed shots is way, WAY lower than the percentage of dead infantry compared to missed blocks.

-----

I need to add that basically I agree that archers suffered a lot in almost all past patches. And while I do agree with a lot of 2hd heroes and the devs that there was something to be done about the ranged problem cRPG undeniably had, the solution which was found (nerfing) was not the solution I would have chosen. The reason for this was already mentioned:
Quote from: Garison on March 14, 2013, 04:26:05 pm
Archery has gotten nerfed over and over, and people will always call for more nerfs...not because they are OP, but because they are annoying.

They are annoying because the goal of the game, which is killing everybody, is making them annoying. Their ranged capabilities give them higher flexibility and that flexibility unbalance shifts the interaction with the game in a way where infantry ends up being a reacting, a passive class, while archers (and cavalry too, btw) are an acting, active class. Even when archers are defending and infantry is charging. But there are not so many complaints about archers from siege servers. Why? Because there the objectives are NOT killing everybody, they are defending/conquering, and this is something infantry gets much better along with, and doesn't suffer so much from archers.

Change battle mode, and the archer problem will be fixed.
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Penitent on March 14, 2013, 06:38:55 pm
Quote from: Son Of Odin on March 14, 2013, 06:23:15 pm
Are you maybe mixing qq with sensible, well structured and reasonable suggestions which may have some effect on something?

No, I think its easy to confuse them as something different from each other though. :)

Even a modestly intelligent person, when he cries, can shape his mouth in such a way as to to fool those around him into thinking the sound he makes is worthwhile to behold.

Seriously though, its a matter of subjectivity and convincing others.  A qq can take its time and use big words...and an intelligent case can be made to nerf every class.  It's a matter of who agrees with him, and how many agree with him.  There is a larger amount of people ready to consider an archery nerf as reasonable, because there is a larger amount of people who have an interest in this, being 2h, pole, or cav players.

I know if I was a dev, I would pause and give thought to a case that many people are advocating and comes up again and again in the forums....and I'm a pretty level headed and impartial guy.  It's just how things work sometimes.  Ignoring a case that came up again and again by a large amount of players would be just as irresponsible.
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Horst_Kurmoottaja on March 14, 2013, 06:45:25 pm
Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on March 14, 2013, 03:36:46 pm


I don't see why archers running away is any justification for nerfing them to hell.   Maybe you should be protecting your own archers instead of being kited by someone who's lighter and faster than you. 


Melee players protecting archers is nice way to be somewhat usefull to the team if you don't like huge clusterfucks and massbrawls all the time. As a melee player its nice to have this kind of a choice. For me this game would be lot less fun without archers, even sometimes I just want to kill them all :D
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: ROHYPNOL on March 14, 2013, 07:04:20 pm
Personally, crpg was much better when many things you call "OP" was present, everything is nerf this or that. How about do some notable buffs, and some drastic changes to make this game interesting again. Crpg is getting ruined more and more. BUFF PLZ
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Penitent on March 14, 2013, 07:10:04 pm
BUFF CRPG
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Perverz on March 14, 2013, 07:10:42 pm
nerf 2h buff everything else!
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Admiral Ballsack on March 14, 2013, 07:28:08 pm
(click to show/hide)
Completely agree I did a gen of archer and it sucked ass, I got better at the end of the gen but if you don't get headshots you're pretty much useless shooting a heavy armored guy. I'd say it took me 4-7 shots to kill people if I hit them in the body. I still got more points and made more of an impact in melee(Using my 1h sword side arm).. And centering a game around realism doesn't make a good game...(note if they were trying to make the game realistic why can you feint your sword 100x times... Imagine how much they weigh...)
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: FrugFrug on March 14, 2013, 08:06:57 pm
Quote from: Xbrownish3 on March 14, 2013, 07:28:08 pm
Imagine how much they weigh...

I might be mistaken, but swords normally weighed like 2-4 pounds.
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Penitent on March 14, 2013, 08:09:15 pm
Quote from: FrugFrug on March 14, 2013, 08:06:57 pm
I might be mistaken, but swords normally weighed like 2-4 pounds.

You are not mistaken, FrugFrugFrug.
(aw crap, I put too many Frugs)
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Lemmy_Winks on March 14, 2013, 08:39:38 pm
If archers are a bit overpowered at the moment i dont really care if they are nerfed or not. I had thought that archers had been in a place where the devs saw fit to "nerf" them, they did this by making arrows slow you down alot weight wise but increased damage/headshot damage or something to compensate. People complained about the weight nerf and it was reverted, leaving just the damage buff. So archers where thought to be needing a nerf, and where in the end buffed. Archers that are geared like Kesh practically 1 shot me, i wear basic unloomed chain armor. Archers with average gear can still kill me in 2-3 hits. The way i see it is there needs to be some sort of trade off here. An archer, who is in no danger and has to take no risk to attack thier opponent, should nto be able to do more damage than a player who has to take a large risk by getting into melle combat with the player where he could certainly be killed to inflict damage that is half of what an archer can infilict from a safe distance. People in the past when archery was maybe more balanced complained about the damage being low, well the damage is low because there is no risk involved in dealing the damage to an enemy player. High risk -> high damage, low risk -> low damage. And look at cavalry, is it unbalanced, yes it is. But even there is a trade off, they do alot of damage and can one shot alot of people, but if they get hit by a melle player they are trying to kill while traveling at those speeds they will almost certanly die, cavalry is a glass cannon, so its a proper trade off.

Not to mention in balance there are many other things to take into account, like for example that the archer has no true counter. Some people will say sheilders, but any archer is going to be shooting from behind his infantry who will protect them from any melle including sheilders. And even if a sheilder gets passed the infantry you can just run away, its not like he can catch you or anything. Cavalry is the only thing that can really reach out and get archers, but archers are supposed to be a counter to cavalry, and they are. And then there is the melle abilities, archers are by no means inept in melle combat, especially with the recent weapon buffs/changes. They may not be able to spare many points into a sidearm WPF, but it doesnt matter given how fast the weapons that are available to them now are. Ya they dont have powerstrike, but they can use a weapon they can swing as fast or faster than an enemy melle player, and they are faster on foot than a melle player which is a huge advantage in melle, their only disadvantage is they dont hit so hard, but having to hit a player 2-3 more times at most to kill them isnt that big a disadvantage and you probabbly have seen many archers who are good in melee easily destroy even decent melee players. Ya they dont have armor but they are more of an agi build melle play style which is perfectlyt viable. They certainly could be more inept in melle combat. If there is an influx of archers or any class, its probabbly becasue the class is currently powerful. Again i dont care if they are nerfed, just pointing this out.
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Vodner on March 14, 2013, 09:06:10 pm
Quote
People complained about the weight nerf and it was reverted, leaving just the damage buff.
Arrows are 10kg a stack at the moment.
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Penitent on March 14, 2013, 09:12:28 pm
Lemmy, I can appreciate your analyzation, but I think it misses some nuance of the game.  I don't think it is in such a black and white "rock-paper-scissors" set up with the classes.  I think there is more variety and different builds to take in to account. 

For example, archers can be thought of as a counter for cav.  But so can pikemen.  At the same time, when I play my archer alt, I get killed by cav more than any other class!  This happens if I slip in to "tunnel" vision and get ganked.  When I play cav, archers are my favorite prey.  They usually die in 1 hit.

Also, think about 2h characters.  If I was going to face a fast, spammy, ninja 2h character, I would choose to counter this with a shielder with a fast, long weapon like an italian sword.  However, if I were to face a slow 2h mauler....my favored class to counter this would be a fast, ninja 2h character.

When group fights come up, it changes everything.  If I was facing a group of 2 shielders, 2 archers, and a cav....I would choose to counter this with a pikeman, 1 archer, 1 shielder, and two 2h shieldbreakers (just as an example off the top of my head). 

So I think its more dynamic than that.

Also, we must remember that archers DO pay for their ability to attack at a distance.  They have to wear lighter armor, and die faster.  Remember that the ranged attacks are less accurate than melee attacks...so many will just miss or be absorbed by a shield....and more importantly they have limited ammo.  This means that they can attack without being threatened from afar for a limited time, then they are more vulnerable and are at risk of being 1-shot in melee due to their inferior melee skills and equipment (there is a buff to 1h 0-slot items, but they are still inferior to longswords, poleaxes, and scimtars).  That's what balances them out.
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: XyNox on March 14, 2013, 09:19:32 pm
Quote from: Lemmy_Winks on March 14, 2013, 08:39:38 pm
...

Archers oneshotting people in mail, outrunning melees, swinging faster than melees and kill them in 3 - 4 hits while having no counter but simultaniously countering cav ? Are you sure we are talking about the same game here ?
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on March 14, 2013, 09:36:04 pm
Garison I agree with you except for the last sentence in parenthesis, there's a 0 slot weapon out there that has the same stats as a knightly arming sword...the spathion
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Ronin on March 14, 2013, 09:40:47 pm
There is also paramerion who has better stats than any other sword and a mace without a knockdown.
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on March 14, 2013, 09:54:01 pm
Quote from: Ronin on March 14, 2013, 09:40:47 pm
There is also paramerion who has better stats than any other sword and a mace without a knockdown.

paramerion is by far the best sword (and only 6.6k gold cost), but it's 1 slot I berieve
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Ronin on March 14, 2013, 10:23:31 pm
My point was, the current patch items are a bit broken. We shouldn't take them too much into account.
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Robert on March 14, 2013, 11:14:52 pm
Very interesting to hear peoples opinions on this

I would like to add a few things also to disscuss

First is I don't want to be forced to be a hybred melee.
Second You really do need at least 150wpf for good reload speeds, accuracy and keep the costs down, that leaves no points for other weapons unless you stack agi but you need at least 18 str to use longbow so I can't, plus it cost to much.
Third If archers are eventualy forced to lose accuracy and reload speeds, there will be no point shooting at other archers, there to far away, so archers will start shooting at closer targets with their less than accurate shots, probably hitting more friendlys than ever and upsetting even more people.
And forth I personly haven't liked all these drastic nerfs, I would like everything returned as it was for archers, then stort out a proper re-balancing of all the classes.

As for my views of archers balance, well I would vote for lower arrow/bow damage in return for better head shot damage over all these other soul destroying nerfs.
At least that way melee would maybe then say fair play to that archer, it was a bloody good shot.
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Joker86 on March 15, 2013, 01:26:57 pm
Quote from: XyNox on March 14, 2013, 09:19:32 pm
Archers oneshotting people in mail, outrunning melees, swinging faster than melees and kill them in 3 - 4 hits while having no counter but simultaniously countering cav ? Are you sure we are talking about the same game here ?

While I agree that Lemmy doesn't seem to be up to date concerning a few changes (e.g. the running speed), he is right about the real counter. It's like cavalry: you have someone who is more or less untouchable for you as long as he is focusing you (shielder for archers, pikeman for cav), but you have no one who - once focused you - brings you in trouble (as the shield and the armour often slow down the shielder as much as the arrows slow down the archer). At least not for the majority of the round. Of course you are in trouble when the enemy survivors of the infantry clash in the middle start cleaning the map, especially with the mobility nerf. But I mean a class which naturally is really effective against archer, without having good chances of being killed by the archer himself. That's why I exclude cavalry from that list. Yes, you die most often to them, but they also die most often to you.

I think in this case the upkeep is the problem, because it basically killed the class of heavy or even plated cavalry. With heavy cavalry (and a few proper soak stats for armour and horse) archers would have a counter again. This change would also need a few other changes, and so on. I just want to point out that my biggest problems I have with cRPG are not some item stats or skill mechanics (although some of them are horrible indeed, e.g. that the 18str archer is more or less the standard build, and that other builds with less or especially with more str are not that optimal), the biggest problem are two things: the battle game mode, which favours some classes and discriminates against some others, and the absolutely fucked up and useless upkeep system, which only rudimentally accomplishes its job on restricting items, so that the viabilities of items had to be varied, resulting in a reduction of variety.

Unless these points don't get fixed, cRPG will never be without constant complaints and lobbying of different, unfortunately not small groups.
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: BarBeQ on March 15, 2013, 02:01:02 pm
Yeah Lets destroy diversity even more, so that we only have shielders and archers !!!
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Joker86 on March 15, 2013, 02:33:45 pm
Quote from: BarBeQ on March 15, 2013, 02:01:02 pm
Yeah Lets destroy diversity even more, so that we only have shielders and archers !!!

Are you referring to my post?  :? :?:
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Penitent on March 15, 2013, 03:47:06 pm
Well I have to say that...for once...there are some very nice and well-thought out expressions in this thread.  I like to hear from other people in regards to how they approach the issue of "balance" and what they perceive to the factors of balance.

I should also say that I have a 2h alt, level 27, and I do not think the class is OP.  I even have a MW Danish.  It's an awesome weapon, and a really fun class...but unless you are a really great player you aren't going to wtfpwn just because of the weapon you use or where you put your wpf.
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: BarBeQ on March 15, 2013, 04:57:02 pm
Quote from: Joker86 on March 15, 2013, 02:33:45 pm
Are you referring to my post?  :? :?:

No, im referring to Robert
Title: Re: Next archery nerf?
Post by: Joker86 on March 15, 2013, 05:35:41 pm
Good.  :D