Author Topic: Next archery nerf?  (Read 3380 times)

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Offline Joker86

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Re: Next archery nerf?
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2013, 06:28:41 pm »
+3
I don't see why archers running away is any justification for nerfing them to hell.   Maybe you should be protecting your own archers instead of being kited by someone who's lighter and faster than you. 

But this is c-rpg, where you can keep running into the same wall and if you cry enough on the forums, the devs will remove the wall instead of expecting you to walk around it.

Oh come on Cracka. That last sentence applies to you as well, always the same walls. Are you again trying to tell us that kiting is okay, because if you are slower than the kiter you shouldn't go after him? Again completely ignoring the fact that if you have to choose between a) ignoring an archer and risking of getting shot in the back or b) going after him and disabling both of you for that battle, that option b) is the better one, because it's a stalemate at least, wheras a) means an advantage for the enemy team.

As archery is now it often takes 4-6 arrows to kill one person on NA servers with 9 powerdraw, masterwork longbow, masterwork bodkins thanks to the overwhelming number of strentgh builds in 60+ armor and often riding warhorses/cataphracts/etc.  - it takes one hit from them to kill the archer.  They just have to run straight toward an archer and unless you get a headshot they will kill you, far easier as plate armored cavalrymen (many many of those now with marketplace making gold easy).

Well, I don't deny that it could be complicated for one archer to take down one 2hd-Kuyak-hero. That's why I believe that archers are basically UP, their stats (dmg, etc.) are horrible on the paper. But what about two archers against two 2hd? And what about ten archers vs. ten 2hd? The more archers you have, the more difficult it is to approach them.

And yes, in melee you sometimes need only one strike to score a kill. But while getting in melee range you are under the constant danger of being lanced or shot, and as you have to move it is much more difficult to stay aware than when you are standing still or even are sitting in a good position with a lot of cover. And once you reached melee where you can kill with a single strike, you can also die with a single mistake. The percentage of dead archers compared to missed shots is way, WAY lower than the percentage of dead infantry compared to missed blocks.

-----

I need to add that basically I agree that archers suffered a lot in almost all past patches. And while I do agree with a lot of 2hd heroes and the devs that there was something to be done about the ranged problem cRPG undeniably had, the solution which was found (nerfing) was not the solution I would have chosen. The reason for this was already mentioned:
Archery has gotten nerfed over and over, and people will always call for more nerfs...not because they are OP, but because they are annoying.

They are annoying because the goal of the game, which is killing everybody, is making them annoying. Their ranged capabilities give them higher flexibility and that flexibility unbalance shifts the interaction with the game in a way where infantry ends up being a reacting, a passive class, while archers (and cavalry too, btw) are an acting, active class. Even when archers are defending and infantry is charging. But there are not so many complaints about archers from siege servers. Why? Because there the objectives are NOT killing everybody, they are defending/conquering, and this is something infantry gets much better along with, and doesn't suffer so much from archers.

Change battle mode, and the archer problem will be fixed.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Penitent

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Re: Next archery nerf?
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2013, 06:38:55 pm »
+2
Are you maybe mixing qq with sensible, well structured and reasonable suggestions which may have some effect on something?

No, I think its easy to confuse them as something different from each other though. :)

Even a modestly intelligent person, when he cries, can shape his mouth in such a way as to to fool those around him into thinking the sound he makes is worthwhile to behold.

Seriously though, its a matter of subjectivity and convincing others.  A qq can take its time and use big words...and an intelligent case can be made to nerf every class.  It's a matter of who agrees with him, and how many agree with him.  There is a larger amount of people ready to consider an archery nerf as reasonable, because there is a larger amount of people who have an interest in this, being 2h, pole, or cav players.

I know if I was a dev, I would pause and give thought to a case that many people are advocating and comes up again and again in the forums....and I'm a pretty level headed and impartial guy.  It's just how things work sometimes.  Ignoring a case that came up again and again by a large amount of players would be just as irresponsible.

Offline Horst_Kurmoottaja

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Re: Next archery nerf?
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2013, 06:45:25 pm »
+3


I don't see why archers running away is any justification for nerfing them to hell.   Maybe you should be protecting your own archers instead of being kited by someone who's lighter and faster than you. 


Melee players protecting archers is nice way to be somewhat usefull to the team if you don't like huge clusterfucks and massbrawls all the time. As a melee player its nice to have this kind of a choice. For me this game would be lot less fun without archers, even sometimes I just want to kill them all :D
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Offline ROHYPNOL

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Re: Next archery nerf?
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2013, 07:04:20 pm »
+7
Personally, crpg was much better when many things you call "OP" was present, everything is nerf this or that. How about do some notable buffs, and some drastic changes to make this game interesting again. Crpg is getting ruined more and more. BUFF PLZ
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Offline Penitent

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Re: Next archery nerf?
« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2013, 07:10:04 pm »
0
BUFF CRPG

Offline Perverz

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Re: Next archery nerf?
« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2013, 07:10:42 pm »
0
nerf 2h buff everything else!
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Offline Admiral Ballsack

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Re: Next archery nerf?
« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2013, 07:28:08 pm »
+2
(click to show/hide)
Completely agree I did a gen of archer and it sucked ass, I got better at the end of the gen but if you don't get headshots you're pretty much useless shooting a heavy armored guy. I'd say it took me 4-7 shots to kill people if I hit them in the body. I still got more points and made more of an impact in melee(Using my 1h sword side arm).. And centering a game around realism doesn't make a good game...(note if they were trying to make the game realistic why can you feint your sword 100x times... Imagine how much they weigh...)
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 07:31:18 pm by Xbrownish3 »
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Offline FrugFrug

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Re: Next archery nerf?
« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2013, 08:06:57 pm »
+4
Imagine how much they weigh...

I might be mistaken, but swords normally weighed like 2-4 pounds.

Offline Penitent

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Re: Next archery nerf?
« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2013, 08:09:15 pm »
+1
I might be mistaken, but swords normally weighed like 2-4 pounds.

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Offline Lemmy_Winks

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Re: Next archery nerf?
« Reply #39 on: March 14, 2013, 08:39:38 pm »
-3
If archers are a bit overpowered at the moment i dont really care if they are nerfed or not. I had thought that archers had been in a place where the devs saw fit to "nerf" them, they did this by making arrows slow you down alot weight wise but increased damage/headshot damage or something to compensate. People complained about the weight nerf and it was reverted, leaving just the damage buff. So archers where thought to be needing a nerf, and where in the end buffed. Archers that are geared like Kesh practically 1 shot me, i wear basic unloomed chain armor. Archers with average gear can still kill me in 2-3 hits. The way i see it is there needs to be some sort of trade off here. An archer, who is in no danger and has to take no risk to attack thier opponent, should nto be able to do more damage than a player who has to take a large risk by getting into melle combat with the player where he could certainly be killed to inflict damage that is half of what an archer can infilict from a safe distance. People in the past when archery was maybe more balanced complained about the damage being low, well the damage is low because there is no risk involved in dealing the damage to an enemy player. High risk -> high damage, low risk -> low damage. And look at cavalry, is it unbalanced, yes it is. But even there is a trade off, they do alot of damage and can one shot alot of people, but if they get hit by a melle player they are trying to kill while traveling at those speeds they will almost certanly die, cavalry is a glass cannon, so its a proper trade off.

Not to mention in balance there are many other things to take into account, like for example that the archer has no true counter. Some people will say sheilders, but any archer is going to be shooting from behind his infantry who will protect them from any melle including sheilders. And even if a sheilder gets passed the infantry you can just run away, its not like he can catch you or anything. Cavalry is the only thing that can really reach out and get archers, but archers are supposed to be a counter to cavalry, and they are. And then there is the melle abilities, archers are by no means inept in melle combat, especially with the recent weapon buffs/changes. They may not be able to spare many points into a sidearm WPF, but it doesnt matter given how fast the weapons that are available to them now are. Ya they dont have powerstrike, but they can use a weapon they can swing as fast or faster than an enemy melle player, and they are faster on foot than a melle player which is a huge advantage in melle, their only disadvantage is they dont hit so hard, but having to hit a player 2-3 more times at most to kill them isnt that big a disadvantage and you probabbly have seen many archers who are good in melee easily destroy even decent melee players. Ya they dont have armor but they are more of an agi build melle play style which is perfectlyt viable. They certainly could be more inept in melle combat. If there is an influx of archers or any class, its probabbly becasue the class is currently powerful. Again i dont care if they are nerfed, just pointing this out.
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Offline Vodner

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Re: Next archery nerf?
« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2013, 09:06:10 pm »
0
Quote
People complained about the weight nerf and it was reverted, leaving just the damage buff.
Arrows are 10kg a stack at the moment.

Offline Penitent

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Re: Next archery nerf?
« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2013, 09:12:28 pm »
+2
Lemmy, I can appreciate your analyzation, but I think it misses some nuance of the game.  I don't think it is in such a black and white "rock-paper-scissors" set up with the classes.  I think there is more variety and different builds to take in to account. 

For example, archers can be thought of as a counter for cav.  But so can pikemen.  At the same time, when I play my archer alt, I get killed by cav more than any other class!  This happens if I slip in to "tunnel" vision and get ganked.  When I play cav, archers are my favorite prey.  They usually die in 1 hit.

Also, think about 2h characters.  If I was going to face a fast, spammy, ninja 2h character, I would choose to counter this with a shielder with a fast, long weapon like an italian sword.  However, if I were to face a slow 2h mauler....my favored class to counter this would be a fast, ninja 2h character.

When group fights come up, it changes everything.  If I was facing a group of 2 shielders, 2 archers, and a cav....I would choose to counter this with a pikeman, 1 archer, 1 shielder, and two 2h shieldbreakers (just as an example off the top of my head). 

So I think its more dynamic than that.

Also, we must remember that archers DO pay for their ability to attack at a distance.  They have to wear lighter armor, and die faster.  Remember that the ranged attacks are less accurate than melee attacks...so many will just miss or be absorbed by a shield....and more importantly they have limited ammo.  This means that they can attack without being threatened from afar for a limited time, then they are more vulnerable and are at risk of being 1-shot in melee due to their inferior melee skills and equipment (there is a buff to 1h 0-slot items, but they are still inferior to longswords, poleaxes, and scimtars).  That's what balances them out.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 09:24:54 pm by Garison »

Offline XyNox

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Re: Next archery nerf?
« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2013, 09:19:32 pm »
-1
...

Archers oneshotting people in mail, outrunning melees, swinging faster than melees and kill them in 3 - 4 hits while having no counter but simultaniously countering cav ? Are you sure we are talking about the same game here ?
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Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: Next archery nerf?
« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2013, 09:36:04 pm »
-1
Garison I agree with you except for the last sentence in parenthesis, there's a 0 slot weapon out there that has the same stats as a knightly arming sword...the spathion
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Offline Ronin

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Re: Next archery nerf?
« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2013, 09:40:47 pm »
+1
There is also paramerion who has better stats than any other sword and a mace without a knockdown.
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