cRPG

Strategus => Diplomacy => Topic started by: Jaren on February 13, 2013, 06:14:42 am

Title: So the call rang...
Post by: Jaren on February 13, 2013, 06:14:42 am
"The fools... They think this is the final thread of the Empire?" Lord Syls sat at the table twiddling his fingers..

Tristan turns... baffled in astonishment; his friendships  torn. If the blade is needed to show the Empires might, he will bring it himself...
Hobb and the Goat of adopta stare as he makes his exit... A blood soaked future awaits them all.

"Bring down the full fury of the Empire!" The God Emperor slams his fist upon the mahogany table leaving no reason to grasp upon...

9Finger and the Legendary Aldog sit starring between themselves... A surprise brought to the unsuspecting Lord and MB Kings of the Empire.

Warborn looks to Bonesaw, already determined to the fate of the Empire, these forgings of powers mattered very little.

----- Later that evening -----

"This is it men!"
"These desert men have shown us no mercy, and so we shall give them no restraint."

As he spoke the thunderous stomps of troops shifting throughout the Empire rained through all the ears who gave attention.

"These men have sealed their fate, and so... We shall give them nothing but the bitter seeds they have chosen to sow.
prepare your arms, rally your brothers.. the Velucan Empire will show these dogs no mercy!"
Jaren stood atop a hill shouting to his force left from scathed conflict
"We sought a peace, one that could not be fulfilled by there end... And so we must put those dogs down, to battle my brothers!


HAIL VELUCA!!!
********************************
TL;DR

Hero Party has chosen now to be the best time to assault the Empire of Veluca. We welcome the opposition as it will be a rare few of times the Empire will be on the defensive. Good luck to you all.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Visconti on February 13, 2013, 06:35:47 am
Wish we could have avoided it, but so be it. Its gonna be nice to defend for once, hopefully we dont get fucked over by more bugs.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Kelugarn on February 13, 2013, 07:15:52 am
Our Heroes' Party finally decides to fight back against the menacing Velucan Empire! Will our rag-tag band of trolls with hearts of gold be able to defeat the God Emperor and his menacing blue behemoth? Find out next week on Diplomacy and Trade Simulator: 2013!
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: arowaine on February 13, 2013, 07:46:18 am
well since fcc is coming down with 6k troops + we migth just re consider staying in our castle and wait to see more of you coming. looking forward to figth the entire map along side with hero party.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: SHinOCk on February 13, 2013, 08:12:38 am
Wish we could have avoided it, but so be it. Its gonna be nice to defend for once, hopefully we dont get fucked over by more bugs.

There's no avoiding it since you guys decided to take our villages but the good side to all of this is that were gonna get some more mad exp. Best strat in my opinion so far if not for the fact that it looks like its gonna end up just as usual with the same people against each other
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Visconti on February 13, 2013, 09:28:27 am
There's no avoiding it since you guys decided to take our villages but the good side to all of this is that were gonna get some more mad exp. Best strat in my opinion so far if not for the fact that it looks like its gonna end up just as usual with the same people against each other

You guys did it to yourself, FCC wouldnt have fought Occitan, and we wanted to leave Hero Party and Fimbulvetr to their war, doesnt really make much sense for Hero party to attack us while they are fighting 2 other equal/larger clans.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: SHinOCk on February 13, 2013, 11:13:28 am
You guys did it to yourself, FCC wouldnt have fought Occitan, and we wanted to leave Hero Party and Fimbulvetr to their war, doesnt really make much sense for Hero party to attack us while they are fighting 2 other equal/larger clans.


To be honest i never wanted to attack Frisia/NH but once you start something, however stupid it is, you've got to deal with the consequences and the consequences were us at war with NH... I mean we attacked their ally after all and while we are bigger than NH members wise, they did have an advantage in troops/gear/money or at least they should have had the advantage since we've been relocating 2 times in EU land to finally come back on NA considerably slowing down our economical power and troop gathering.

Because of this and the stupid attack on Rindyar castle, we couldn't just do as if nothing happened there and go fight FCC up north leaving our lands open for an angry NH invasion as retribution. Its easy to understand why we decided to keep pushing NH at that point... We did bite a bit more than we could chew and decided to go all out on NH instead of spreading our armies and get rdy for a push from FCC afterward which never came at the time.

I would've loved to just go against Kesh and not having to deal with you guys jumping in as usual but then again, you did say you wanted the desert so you probably would've jumped on us anyway as we would've been fighting up there (which is a smart move). All in all, its more of a "It's how strat and this community works" than a "You guys did it to yourselves" thing. You can ask Baleohay, I've been talking with him before all the wars started and we did try to make it different for this version of strat... We were not able to come to anything good because certain people are too stubborn to change anything and they keep talking shit
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Relit on February 13, 2013, 11:47:30 am

... I mean we attacked their ally after all and while we are bigger than NH members wise, they did have an advantage in troops/gear/money or at least they should have had the advantage since we've been relocating 2 times in EU land to finally come back on NA considerably slowing down our economical power and troop gathering.

Until Fimbulvetr was formed NH had less then 10 active strat members. (It was more like 7. Two of which are lazy bastards... *cough* Zan *cough* BW)
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Blackzilla on February 13, 2013, 01:18:26 pm
You guys did it to yourself, FCC wouldnt have fought Occitan, and we wanted to leave Hero Party and Fimbulvetr to their war, doesnt really make much sense for Hero party to attack us while they are fighting 2 other equal/larger clans.
yolo
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: BaleOhay on February 13, 2013, 01:37:18 pm
We did try and become friends this strat. I even had our people on board but got veto-ed by your leadership. Even helped get your guys some new land thinking that it would maybe earn a little friendship. We attacked hosp, you attacked us in return and started our war off.

I have no issues with it honestly. War is the only thing to make this game fun. Typical battle lines but had some other choices been made it did not have to be that way.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Visconti on February 13, 2013, 01:46:36 pm

To be honest i never wanted to attack Frisia/NH but once you start something, however stupid it is, you've got to deal with the consequences and the consequences were us at war with NH... I mean we attacked their ally after all and while we are bigger than NH members wise, they did have an advantage in troops/gear/money or at least they should have had the advantage since we've been relocating 2 times in EU land to finally come back on NA considerably slowing down our economical power and troop gathering.

Because of this and the stupid attack on Rindyar castle, we couldn't just do as if nothing happened there and go fight FCC up north leaving our lands open for an angry NH invasion as retribution. Its easy to understand why we decided to keep pushing NH at that point... We did bite a bit more than we could chew and decided to go all out on NH instead of spreading our armies and get rdy for a push from FCC afterward which never came at the time.

I would've loved to just go against Kesh and not having to deal with you guys jumping in as usual but then again, you did say you wanted the desert so you probably would've jumped on us anyway as we would've been fighting up there (which is a smart move). All in all, its more of a "It's how strat and this community works" than a "You guys did it to yourselves" thing. You can ask Baleohay, I've been talking with him before all the wars started and we did try to make it different for this version of strat... We were not able to come to anything good because certain people are too stubborn to change anything and they keep talking shit

The only reason we attacked Occitan was because you had the fiefs we wanted, Nothing to do with FCC or Fimbulvetr, you think we would do anything else while having a potentially hostile occitan in our rear?

I would have preferred it to stay VE vs Occitan, and Fimbulvetr vs HP, infact i tried to talk smoothrich out of attacking us, multiple times. That way we wouldnt have to help wipe hero party, when we have no interest in their fiefs. Thats why i say you guys did it to yourself.

Also, we tried to be friends with occitan too, when you guys were relocating to NA, we offered you fiefs, but were turned down by leadership, who then went ahead and spread our plans around.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Keshian on February 13, 2013, 02:31:33 pm
This:
You guys did it to yourself, FCC wouldnt have fought Occitan, and we wanted to leave Hero Party and Fimbulvetr to their war, doesnt really make much sense for Hero party to attack us while they are fighting 2 other equal/larger clans.

and this:
We did try and become friends this strat. I even had our people on board but got veto-ed by your leadership. Even helped get your guys some new land thinking that it would maybe earn a little friendship. We attacked hosp, you attacked us in return and started our war off.

I have no issues with it honestly. War is the only thing to make this game fun. Typical battle lines but had some other choices been made it did not have to be that way.

Pretty much sums it up.  We were already at war with Occitan, Hero Party, and Hospitallers thanks to occitan and hospitallers attacking us at various points during this strategus.  Hero party was our own initiation thanks to them raging so hard about us sending three small armies to even the odds and stop them from rolling over a much smaller faction with their 40-member faction, gave BIRD clan time to sell a couple indefensible fiefs rather than lose them anyway and reconsolidate after the death of LLJK. 

We have been marching for a while towards Hero party since occitan was otherwise busy (we are cocky, but going on the offensive against 3 equal to larger factions than us would be stupid).  And then HP just went complete derp mode and attacked VE who were neutral to them (kind of like when they embroiled occ into the nh war over a silly castle that was given away by an afk player instead of fighting us) and all this after losing thousands of troops to attacking their own castle, suicide diving 1 village, and losing members, etc.  Oh well, self-destruction is a legitimate tactic I guess.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Turboflex on February 13, 2013, 04:28:37 pm

To be honest i never wanted to attack Frisia/NH but once you start something, however stupid it is, you've got to deal with the consequences and the consequences were us at war with NH... I mean we attacked their ally after all and while we are bigger than NH members wise, they did have an advantage in troops/gear/money or at least they should have had the advantage since we've been relocating 2 times in EU land to finally come back on NA considerably slowing down our economical power and troop gathering.

Because of this and the stupid attack on Rindyar castle, we couldn't just do as if nothing happened there and go fight FCC up north leaving our lands open for an angry NH invasion as retribution. Its easy to understand why we decided to keep pushing NH at that point... We did bite a bit more than we could chew and decided to go all out on NH instead of spreading our armies and get rdy for a push from FCC afterward which never came at the time.

I would've loved to just go against Kesh and not having to deal with you guys jumping in as usual but then again, you did say you wanted the desert so you probably would've jumped on us anyway as we would've been fighting up there (which is a smart move). All in all, its more of a "It's how strat and this community works" than a "You guys did it to yourselves" thing. You can ask Baleohay, I've been talking with him before all the wars started and we did try to make it different for this version of strat... We were not able to come to anything good because certain people are too stubborn to change anything and they keep talking shit

First off as Relit said seriously how strong do you think NH is? We have 11 active players. You have 60 Occitan/Chevaliers + 35 HP generating gold and troops and you're gonna claim with a straight face we had an advantage? Also we could all see you on EU map with a dozen fiefs deep inside UIF carebearland territory on the western part of the map, as if you couldn't trade freely back there I doubt you even had to arm carvans and could just move them around on autopilot, massively overloaded.

I also still don't follow up the logic of making a mistake attacking 1 castle (a single worthless attack that bounced off the walls of it), then instead of negotiating or whatever you follow up your mistake by sending up a massive invasion force of like 10k troops against us a poor small clan, was never contacted once. You guys completely deserve to be stomped now, and yes you did do it to yourselves, if you expected a large VE attack over desert claims then some competent diplomacy could have prevented being at war with us & FCC too, and vs VE alone you match up decently with HP + Occitan having 94 members and especially with defensive advantages.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Sir_Mahtin on February 13, 2013, 05:19:40 pm
Turbo, shit happens... it happened to us as a smaller faction than your 11 man. Enjoy the xp while it lasts.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on February 13, 2013, 05:21:43 pm
"OCCITAN / HERO PARTY ALLIANCE: Trust us, that 10 man NH faction, 10 man absolutely poor and new-founded Frisian faction, and that few man Dracul faction are definitely superior to our might."

Are you my old friendlords serious?
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Duster on February 13, 2013, 05:49:07 pm
Occitan is the one faction in strategus that has a serious set of ideals and sticks to them. You all fault them for standing by their allies and never backing down no matter how many factions stack up, but I applaud them. Good for you occitan, I don't even know why you all respond to the haters.

EDIT: Can we all agree to quit quoting one faction's website member count and then comparing it to how many "active" members you have? It's getting old.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Turboflex on February 13, 2013, 05:51:41 pm
Turbo, shit happens... it happened to us as a smaller faction than your 11 man. Enjoy the xp while it lasts.

We'll survive. I think it's just hilarious he is saying it was some kind of unavoidable mistake, like some kind of act of god this predicament of being at war against FCC & Fimbulvetr when both were preventable and completely due to their own aggressive actions and were completely preventable through better diplomacy. They have lost over 10k HP/occitan troops the past month on Fimbulvetr/FCC soil when they had no good reason to be there and they expected a VE attack in the desert so now these missing armies that probably should have been in the desert defending their homelands against VE are gone and they have 2 extra enemies.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: oprah_winfrey on February 13, 2013, 06:04:23 pm
We'll survive. I think it's just hilarious he is saying it was some kind of unavoidable mistake, like some kind of act of god

GOD WILLS IT
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Keshian on February 13, 2013, 06:10:06 pm
Occitan is the one faction in strategus that has a serious set of ideals and sticks to them.

Uhhhh, not really.  beating up on a 10-man faction not really following a "set of ideals."  Just because they say it a lot doesn't mean its actually true.  Anyway should be some good fights.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: oprah_winfrey on February 13, 2013, 06:13:49 pm
Uhhhh, not really.  beating up on a 10-man faction not really following a "set of ideals."  Just because they say it a lot doesn't mean its actually true.  Anyway should be some good fights.

Fimbulvetr has 37 members.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: partyboy on February 13, 2013, 06:31:02 pm
It's really best to kick inactive members out of the faction because this always happens.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on February 13, 2013, 06:37:26 pm
Fimbulvetr has 37 members.

You're forgetting that Frisia was attacked while our enemies were under the pretense that we were a neutral faction not in the Fimbulvetr alliance.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Haramir on February 13, 2013, 06:53:47 pm
We are at war with NH because they stand up for their ally Frisia.  We have a lot of respect for the NH for keeping their word and it is all in their honor.  It was 60 Les chevaliers Occitans vs 37 Fimbulvetr and you were on defense so it was fair game and the battle we had were enjoyable with much xp and this is the only reason we kept pushing.   But you are right Turboflex we should talk together sometime on TS.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: TheAppleSauceMan on February 13, 2013, 07:00:16 pm
"OCCITAN / HERO PARTY ALLIANCE: Trust us, that 10 man NH faction, 10 man absolutely poor and new-founded Frisian faction, and that few man Dracul faction are definitely superior to our might."

Are you my old friendlords serious?

Yeah, we have 2 active strat members, maybe 3 on the few days I feel like doing shit in strat, but that's a rare occurence.

EDIT: Can we all agree to quit quoting one faction's website member count and then comparing it to how many "active" members you have? It's getting old.


Hmmm, nah. I like it.  :mrgreen:

But honestly I could care less about any strat drama. I'm just enjoying these battles. They got me to 33 and I retired and now I'm almost back to 30 already with their aid. Keep the drama going, keep my levels flowing.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: a_bear_irl on February 13, 2013, 07:02:36 pm
You're forgetting that Frisia was attacked while our enemies were under the pretense that we were a neutral faction not in the Fimbulvetr alliance.

you moved into a fief that had been taken from a HP ally less than a week prior and that's why the fief got attacked -  that's not an "attack" because at that point you're like a squatter attempting an adverse possession

if i took that castle from you, gave it to whatever KUTT is calling themselves now, would you consider the matter settled and let KUTT hold onto it?
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Turboflex on February 13, 2013, 07:05:49 pm
Fimbulvetr has 37 members.

It's been all NH assets so far involved, Frisia is a new faction with Sandersson's crew and some ex-KUTT guys so  had very little resources to start, and what they little they did have had to respond to Teutonic's backstab in the north. Dracul has like 2 active guys.

Going forward Fimbulventr will be stronger and represent that new size but right now this is the resources of a dozen people against 95.

Obviously HP/Occitan have 99 other problems but it was their choice to engage this one.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: TheAppleSauceMan on February 13, 2013, 07:08:03 pm
you moved into a fief that had been taken from a HP ally less than a week prior and that's why the fief got attacked -  that's not an "attack" because at that point you're like a squatter attempting an adverse possession

if i took that castle from you, gave it to whatever KUTT is calling themselves now, would you consider the matter settled and let KUTT hold onto it?

I think that would be quite ironic and comedic considering Tanken is now in Frisia.  :twisted:
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on February 13, 2013, 07:29:11 pm
I think that would be quite ironic and comedic considering Tanken is now in Frisia.  :twisted:

WE FRISIA NOW.

I reckon the time for diplomacy and forum-wars has ended. I can keyboard forum-warrior with the best of them, but I don't think this is the time for that. The sides have been picked and all that's left is to try and synthesize new tactics for the battles, new strategies for strategus, and fight this dang-ole war.

Also respect to our nordic friends for carrying us on their sizable backs recently. We'll not forget nor fail to repay them for holding steadfast over there. It's tough to get a war-machine going from near scratch, but it can get done quickly if you've got a few good nerds.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Rikthor on February 13, 2013, 07:51:11 pm
"OCCITAN / HERO PARTY ALLIANCE: Trust us, that 10 man NH faction, 10 man absolutely poor and new-founded Frisian faction, and that few man Dracul faction are definitely superior to our might."

To be fair, it is probably even as we have seen Hero Party get stuck in a month long war with a faction that had 3-4 freedom fighters before needing a bailout.

(click to show/hide)

You can say what you want about Occitan, but they do stick by their friends/allies even if it means them going down. Les points bonus pour l'Occitan!
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on February 13, 2013, 07:52:14 pm
That sounds like a great motto for almost anything.

"A few good nerds."

Put it on the edges of coins, or emblazon it on the banners of medieval armies. It's beautiful.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 13, 2013, 08:54:34 pm
You're forgetting that Frisia was attacked while our enemies were under the pretense that we were a neutral faction not in the Fimbulvetr alliance.

You're forgetting they didn't attack you to be the big bad meany trying to take candy from a baby.  They had a reason for attacking Rindyar, but you can ignore that and pretend you're the helpless child being harassed for your candy.

At the time of the attack there had been no public announcement or acknowledgement that NH and Frisia had formed FIMBULVTR, Occitan was told after they had already attacked, retreat or NH will be at war with you. 

Would be nice if everyone just stopped with the "help help we're being repressed (sic)" bullshit and just get the fighting on (if you want to do diplomacy, try teamspeak, much more useful than the forums)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Syls on February 13, 2013, 08:59:51 pm
Would be nice if everyone just stopped with the "help help we're being repressed (sic)" bullshit and just get the fighting on (if you want to do diplomacy, try teamspeak, much more useful than the forums)

(click to show/hide)

Hehe, half of our wars are fought on steam most of the time  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: MURDERTRON on February 13, 2013, 09:16:02 pm

Everyone can justify anything, even without good reason as long as others are foolish enough to believe it and follow.  albert tried to wipe out the Jews, the Crusaders had the Muslims and colonists had the Natives.  I, however, try to deal in facts and overt motivations, not religion or hype.

Just as you claim Hero Party took your fief in the desert from your vassal who was not properly factioned, I negotiated for Rindyar castle from someone who was not Hero Party.  Huseby, you seem to forget that most swords in this game are double edged, some even have two, sometimes three modes.  Your hypocrisy does amuse me.  But I guess God Wills It.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 13, 2013, 09:33:42 pm
How was I being a hyprocrit?  There is always two or three sides to every story.  Occitan/HP side was that the castle was forcefully taken from HP.  Frisia claimed it was given to them. 

Same thing happened in the desert early in strat.  We had a claim on an HP castle, they claimed that we had no claim on it. 

I don't see how that changes anything I said.  People have "de jure" claims all the time, that doesn't mean their claim is the 100% fact or truth.  But it is their justification for war, and is more civilized than saying "we're bigger than you, and want what you have".  Which was not what we did to HP, and I don't believe that's what HP/Occitan was doing with Rindyar.  But you are free to believe whatever you want, as you say, every sword has 2 or 3 edges.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Artyem on February 13, 2013, 09:35:07 pm
If you want to get technical, Rindyar Castle belonged to someone who wore the JABONRA tag, but was not in the official HP strategus faction.  FCC ceded control of the castle after a raid and some negotiations, the fief was then purchased by the Frisian Freedom.  At this time, Fimbulvetr was about to become official, but the joint faction wasn't in operation at that point, so it was left to a normal run of the mill alliance.

So, while we were all conspiring together at this point, Frisia reported a large Occitan and HP army moving towards them, we had anticipated that Shik's large army would hit us, as there had been some drama concerning the castle.  Oh weren't we surprised when the HP army fled into the distance and Occitan's army came to do the dirty work for them.  Of course, they lost the siege miserably and left the first thousand some odd men dead in a field, lost due to the incompetency of their so called 'allies'.

So we got thrown into a war with Occitan and HP, over a shitty reconquest casus belli, fought only by Occitan and Fimbulvetr.


Well, I guess HP isn't that bad of an ally, they are throwing themselves into the meat grinder with Occitan now, despite the fact that VE would have left them alone otherwise.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Lt_Anders on February 13, 2013, 10:07:05 pm
I would like to see actual Casualty counts between the 3 or so wars.(FCC vs HP/Occitan, VE vs LCO(HP just got involved), and Fim vs LCO,HP)

I believe that the war of LCO vs Fim was actually slightly in FAVOR of LCO, as Fim has suffered far more losses than LCO in this war.

LCO lost 3 armies at Kedelke and Rindyar.
Fim lost an army (flag capped too) in their Counter of the Rindyar army(so net loss was far far more on Fim side).

LCO lost two armies trying to smash kedelke.
Fim lost 1 army defending Zagush(Occitan lost 2/3)
Fim Lost 2 armies retaking Zagush.
And depending on Occitan choice, will suffer nearly a third loss for the final capture (and occitan's capabilities).

In terms of the War between VE and LCO
VE has lost 2 armies (3.2k) Trying to smash that damned desert castle.
VE lost 1 army(tickets only) due to that shitty server bug
VE lost 2 armies attempting to take on Tomba

LCO lost
2ish armies in their villages

In the grand scheme of things, Occitan considering their standing has lost SIGNIFICANTLY less than you'd except. I do believe the lost tickets will advance into the 10k mark between both sides before the war is over. And with Occitan on the DEFENSIVE (and in super heavy armor) VE needs to change tactics beyond ticket burning to win.

Please correct all the actual numbers as I fought in only half of these battles.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: MURDERTRON on February 13, 2013, 10:19:11 pm
That's correct Huseby, anyone can say or justify however they want.  However, I was drawing parallels between the HP-Hosp incident and the more recent Rindyar.  Anyone can claim one had the right or didn't.  However, the facts remain.

Hero party took a fief from either a no faction or dead faction AFK player.  Both sides claimed to be in the right, but clearly you believe Hospitallers should be the owner.  I raided a dead faction castle owned by an AFK player, then negotiated for a transfer without a second battle.  HP believes they are the rightful owner of Rindyar, despite no announcement of alliances, trade agreements or claims from Jabonra, and you seem to be siding with HP in this disagreement.

We have two extremely similar situations here, and if I had taken the castle through battle, they would be identical.  So let's just assume I took it by force for the sake of argument.  You can't side with the attacker in one situation and then the defender in the other and not be expected to be labelled a hypocrit.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Syls on February 13, 2013, 10:28:25 pm
I would like to see actual Casualty counts between the 3 or so wars.(FCC vs HP/Occitan, VE vs LCO(HP just got involved), and Fim vs LCO,HP)

I believe that the war of LCO vs Fim was actually slightly in FAVOR of LCO, as Fim has suffered far more losses than LCO in this war.

LCO lost 3 armies at Kedelke and Rindyar.
Fim lost an army (flag capped too) in their Counter of the Rindyar army(so net loss was far far more on Fim side).

LCO lost two armies trying to smash kedelke.
Fim lost 1 army defending Zagush(Occitan lost 2/3)
Fim Lost 2 armies retaking Zagush.
And depending on Occitan choice, will suffer nearly a third loss for the final capture (and occitan's capabilities).

In terms of the War between VE and LCO
VE has lost 2 armies (3.2k) Trying to smash that damned desert castle.
VE lost 1 army(tickets only) due to that shitty server bug
VE lost 2 armies attempting to take on Tomba

LCO lost
2ish armies in their villages

In the grand scheme of things, Occitan considering their standing has lost SIGNIFICANTLY less than you'd except. I do believe the lost tickets will advance into the 10k mark between both sides before the war is over. And with Occitan on the DEFENSIVE (and in super heavy armor) VE needs to change tactics beyond ticket burning to win.

Please correct all the actual numbers as I fought in only half of these battles.

Defenders have a enormous advantage, Occitan themselves suffered it when they attacked NH. VE pretty much got screwed because of small and accessible castle, catapults bug, inventory bugs, early battle where we were not able to fill our rosters and timers because we attacked with too many troops. Timers probably killed over a thousands of our troops so we have to watch out for that. Overall we've learned a lot from it and we will probably defend for a while until the server stabilize.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Lt_Anders on February 13, 2013, 10:34:52 pm
Defenders have a enormous advantage, Occitan themselves suffered it when they attacked NH. VE pretty much got screwed because of small and accessible castle, catapults bug, inventory bugs, early battle where we were not able to fill our rosters and timers because we attacked with too many troops. Timers probably killed over a thousands of our troops so we have to watch out for that. Overall we've learned a lot from it and we will probably defend for a while until the server stabilize.

I know, I've fought mostly for VE as I was to low level(27 at start) to make Occitan Rosters, that and VE hired me first.

But in the NH vs LCO war, NH actually has lost MORE than LCO. it'll be 3-4 armies to retake zagush totally, they took it in 1. In addition, LCO only lost 3 OTHER ARMIES in their failed assaults on other fiefs.  In terms of manpower lost, NH while on the DEFENSE has suffered 1 losses to LCO's 3. While on Defence LCO has suffered no loss and forced NH into 3 losses. By losses we mean that at battles end Troop count was/is 0 after battle(due to flags, timers, or otherwise).

But, anyways, syls could you get actually numbers lost in all VE battles. I'd like to See how much both sides have lost so far.
Same with FCC and Hero Pary and NH. I want to see the Casualty count.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Syls on February 13, 2013, 10:40:34 pm
I know, I've fought mostly for VE as I was to low level(27 at start) to make Occitan Rosters, that and VE hired me first.

But in the NH vs LCO war, NH actually has lost MORE than LCO. it'll be 3-4 armies to retake zagush totally, they took it in 1. In addition, LCO only lost 3 OTHER ARMIES in their failed assaults on other fiefs.  In terms of manpower lost, NH while on the DEFENSE has suffered 1 losses to LCO's 3. While on Defence LCO has suffered no loss and forced NH into 3 losses. By losses we mean that at battles end Troop count was/is 0 after battle(due to flags, timers, or otherwise).

But, anyways, syls could you get actually numbers lost in all VE battles. I'd like to See how much both sides have lost so far.
Same with FCC and Hero Pary and NH. I want to see the Casualty count.

I will as soon as I lose my x5  :oops:
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Duster on February 13, 2013, 10:54:15 pm
Someone else do the math, I'm at work

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Syls on February 13, 2013, 11:03:42 pm
By raw I mean troops killed + timer kills. The Castle bug forced us to lose 1600 troops and some gear without really fighting. The catapult bug probably worsened the score as well but I didn't calculated it.

Siege Velucan raw troops killed : 9091
Siege Velucan troops killed : 7231
Battle Velucan raw troops killed : 3839
Battle Velucan troops killed : 3368

Total Velucan raw troops killed : 12930
Total Velucan troops killed : 10599

Without the castle bug raw : 12930 - 1600 = 11330
Without the castle bug : 10599 - 1600 = 8999

Siege Occitan troops killed : 4837
Battle Occitan troops killed : 2974

Total Occitan troops killed : 7811

So in the end if you don't consider timer kills and BS bugs : Occitan killed 8999 of our troops while we killed 7811 of theirs.

I also may have missed one or two smaller battle but I don't really think so.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Krosis on February 13, 2013, 11:15:56 pm
By raw I mean troops killed + timer kills. The Castle bug forced us to lose 1600 troops and some gear without really fighting. The catapult bug probably worsened the score as well but I didn't calculated it.

Siege Velucan raw troops killed : 9091
Siege Velucan troops killed : 7231
Battle Velucan raw troops killed : 3839
Battle Velucan troops killed : 3368

Total Velucan raw troops killed : 12930
Total Velucan troops killed : 10599

Without the castle bug raw : 12930 - 1600 = 11330
Without the castle bug : 10599 - 1600 = 8999

Siege Occitan troops killed : 4837
Battle Occitan troops killed : 2974

Total Occitan troops killed : 7811

So in the end if you don't consider timer kills and BS bugs : Occitan killed 8999 of our troops while we killed 7811 of theirs.

I also may have missed one or two smaller battle but I don't really think so.


Raw troops?  :rolleyes:


If there is one "omission" that you could take out it would be the battle that didn't happen because of the equipment bug. I don't really get why you'd try to separate troops lost by timer... It's part of battles/sieges.

This is the first time I hear of this catapult bug, since you guys seemed to have broken walls in most sieges.. you know if the catapults weren't broken before that.. I do think I remember one of them breaking and doing the lag bomb on us for a bit. Then again we all know that could happen if you let the defender break it. (Like Black White did to Occitan's catapults, IIRC).

Let's try to give Occitan more credit here shall we?

"Occitan killed 8999 of our troops while we killed 7811 of theirs."

^ That's like putting a blanket over the actual numbers, because from the battles I've been a part of... only one of them was actually close, and it was the morning field battle (where we did the congo line).  At least.. the big battles.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: arowaine on February 13, 2013, 11:24:56 pm
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you counted population as army keep that in mind to.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Lt_Anders on February 13, 2013, 11:27:32 pm
Ok Thanks syls!
But for the casulty counter, all troops lost (bugged ones too) are what I'm counting. This isn't a gear counting, but a dead counting.

Ok For VE WE HAVE:
Total Velucan raw troops killed : 12930

For HERRO PARTY WE HAVE
4734 dead and 2250 deserters(Tydeus) Total losses: ~7k(6984)
That Includes Black's loss of 1680 too.
(click to show/hide)
Now Arowaine Post your casualty list, NH post theirs and FCC post Theirs.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Syls on February 13, 2013, 11:34:54 pm

Raw troops?  :rolleyes:


If there is one "omission" that you could take out it would be the battle that didn't happen because of the equipment bug. I don't really get why you'd try to separate troops lost by timer... It's part of battles/sieges.

This is the first time I hear of this catapult bug, since you guys seemed to have broken walls in most sieges.. you know if the catapults weren't broken before that.. I do think I remember one of them breaking and doing the lag bomb on us for a bit. Then again we all know that could happen if you let the defender break it. (Like Black White did to Occitan's catapults, IIRC).

Let's try to give Occitan more credit here shall we?

"Occitan killed 8999 of our troops while we killed 7811 of theirs."

^ That's like putting a blanket over the actual numbers, because from the battles I've been a part of... only one of them was actually close, and it was the morning field battle (where we did the congo line).  At least.. the big battles.

Considering you have to be the one attacking to lose troops to timers, it's certainly not occitan "strategy" that made us lose those troops but our own miscalculation. I made sure to separate everything so that one could make his own mind of it all. In the case of the catapult bugs, I'm talking about the bug that made it impossible to make more catapult after the first 2 catapults were destroyed. Considering that the lack of catapults in those particular castle make attacking it a lot more deadly, it IS worth mentioning. Same with timer kills since we now know that any army bigger than 1500 for a field battle is a waste and probably won't happen unless we're desperate.

I really didn't think I had to explain that since it's pretty straightforward, Krosis. You may want to think a bit before posting if you don't know what i'm talking about and pretty much calling me a liar.

Arowaine : 600 of those troops were population, I can't really remember if any of them were geared so I guess you could remove them from the count.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Hobb on February 13, 2013, 11:36:46 pm
I mean he put the totals in the post, why you complaining? You see the the smaller margin and assume it is a less significant number. But really it means occitan did better in physical clashes, which usually is a much smaller difference.

Our last siege we had problems with the equipment spawning. The catapults and racks would disapear half the time and most of the rosters couldnt use the rack. There is just no use reporting this, because just like the caraf bug we wont here anything back.

Also at anders and all the gear haters: both the hoc and tkov gear invetorys for the majority of these troops have been shit we bought before thanksgiving, but telling bonesaw to waste gear is about as effective as telling him to stay sober.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Lt_Anders on February 13, 2013, 11:38:00 pm
Arowaine : 600 of those troops were population, I can't really remember if any of them were geared so I guess you could remove them from the count.

Incorrect. I'm going to be counting total ticket losses. Every ticket lost(even population) is a fighting ticket that could have been used. This isn't modern age, there's no civvies! It's All soldiers, just some aren't always armed  :wink:

Not going to touch the other point.

Quote
Also at anders and all the gear haters: both the hoc and tkov gear invetorys for the majority of these troops have been shit we bought before thanksgiving, but telling bonesaw to waste gear is about as effective as telling him to stay sober.

Hey I wasn't hating. I'm an engineer that uses xbows and 1h(when i gotta fight). And yes, your 1h's HAVE sucked, but only those. The other gear has been decent. That's where you get your flak was that 1h's have been lackluster compared to the other weapons you guys had and only then, because of the heavy armor LCO uses. 1h wiffs way to much on heavy armor if it's not blunt or pierce or a cleaver.

And once again:
AROWAINE POST YOUR TROOP LOSSES PLEASE!
KESH POST YOUR TROOP LOSSES!
NH GUY POST YOUR TROOP LOSSES!

Lets see the amount of blood that has flown!
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Commodore_Axephante on February 13, 2013, 11:42:59 pm
Guys, this all seemed a little complicated to me, so I went to a local playground with my nephew, had him inform a few toddlers about the situation and get their take on it. Here's what they had to say:

"Occitan goes to Jupiter to get more stupider, Fimbulvetr goes to China to get more vagina."

I think this about sums it up rather plainly.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: SHinOCk on February 13, 2013, 11:44:40 pm
So far we lost 7678 troops against VE since it started and we lost 5262 against NH. As for the gear, we have been funded mainly by our victories against VE, i have yet to go through all the 1000 +3 corrazinas/heavy helmets/gloves/boots we bought since the start of this whole war. Against Fimb we were in heraldic mails with tabard/kettle helmets/mail gauntlets/leather boots until we started using the gear you guys gave us in our victories
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Lt_Anders on February 13, 2013, 11:46:44 pm
So far we lost 7678 troops against VE since it started and we lost 5262 against NH. As for the gear, we have been funded mainly by our victory against VE, i have yet to go through all the 1000 +3 corrazinas/heavy helmets/gloves/boots we bought since the start of this whole war. Against Fimb we were in heraldic mails with tabard/kettle helmets/mail gauntlets/leather boots until we started using the gear you guys gave us in our victories

So is this the official LCO losses?
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: SHinOCk on February 13, 2013, 11:47:32 pm
So is this the official LCO losses?

yes

Fim lost 5849 from these battles
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Visconti on February 13, 2013, 11:48:33 pm
Our 1hs havent been great, but like hobb said these armies were just the vanguard, not the best troops we have. And i dont really think we need to change strategys anders, while we have been getting alot of bugs and AM battles, it hasnt been going that bad for us. We lost more tickets sure, but we were able to lure something like 3k Occitan troops out of their fortresses and into the field, and went around 1:1 with them (before timer losses). We killed alot more there then if we had fought the same armies in their castles.  And at the end of the day, we can afford to lose these troops, Occitan cant.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: SHinOCk on February 13, 2013, 11:52:08 pm
Our 1hs havent been great, but like hobb said these armies were just the vanguard, not the best troops we have. And i dont really think we need to change strategys anders, while we have been getting alot of bugs and AM battles, it hasnt been going that bad for us. We lost more tickets sure, but we were able to lure something like 3k Occitan troops out of their fortresses and into the field, and went around 1:1 with them (before timer losses). We killed alot more there then if we had fought the same armies in their castles.  And at the end of the day, we can afford to lose these troops, Occitan cant.

Don't count us out just yet ;)
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Lt_Anders on February 13, 2013, 11:58:52 pm
Our 1hs havent been great, but like hobb said these armies were just the vanguard, not the best troops we have. And i dont really think we need to change strategys anders, while we have been getting alot of bugs and AM battles, it hasnt been going that bad for us. We lost more tickets sure, but we were able to lure something like 3k Occitan troops out of their fortresses and into the field, and went around 1:1 with them (before timer losses). We killed alot more there then if we had fought the same armies in their castles.  And at the end of the day, we can afford to lose these troops, Occitan cant.

I don't really care. You guys just have me show up so I show up!
I'm also not arguing strategy? I don't think I ever did? I did state something along losses due to a bug, but that's about it. I'm only doing a counting for the war. Blood spilled is all I seek, not gear or otherwise.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: BaleOhay on February 14, 2013, 12:05:12 am
FCC loses have not been bad. Only big mess we had was the city fight against hosp. Otherwise we have done well in just about everything we got going on.


No idea how far back you want use to start looking.

Recently Shik hit us with about 2,800. We killed them all and took around 3000 in loses from it. about 700 of that being population that did not have much in the way of equipment.

Not really willing to go back tot he hosp battles and stuff. Those were long enough ago that the troops lost have been replaced two fold.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Lt_Anders on February 14, 2013, 12:19:46 am
FCC loses have not been bad. Only big mess we had was the city fight against hosp. Otherwise we have done well in just about everything we got going on.


No idea how far back you want use to start looking.

Recently Shik hit us with about 2,800. We killed them all and took around 3000 in loses from it. about 700 of that being population that did not have much in the way of equipment.

Not really willing to go back tot he hosp battles and stuff. Those were long enough ago that the troops lost have been replaced two fold.

Please only give me losses versus HP and LCO members. Other wars aren't the concern! Thanks Bale! (http://forum.meleegaming.com/diplomacy/the-great-na-war-losses-to-date/)

Also i just noticed the title of this thread: SO THE CALL RANG....
Shouldn't it be SO THE PHONE RANG....
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Visconti on February 14, 2013, 12:25:57 am
Don't count us out just yet ;)

Oh of course not, you guys have alot of stuff left, there is still a long war left ahead of us. Just hope the bugs will stop picking on us though :(
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: MURDERTRON on February 14, 2013, 12:39:22 am
I'm confused why hp would post their losses against what seems to be themselves.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Duster on February 14, 2013, 12:46:34 am
I'm confused why hp would post their losses against what seems to be themselves.

Losses are losses brah, had to quell the rebellion
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on February 14, 2013, 01:58:12 am
You're forgetting they didn't attack you to be the big bad meany trying to take candy from a baby.  They had a reason for attacking Rindyar, but you can ignore that and pretend you're the helpless child being harassed for your candy.

At the time of the attack there had been no public announcement or acknowledgement that NH and Frisia had formed FIMBULVTR, Occitan was told after they had already attacked, retreat or NH will be at war with you. 

Would be nice if everyone just stopped with the "help help we're being repressed (sic)" bullshit and just get the fighting on (if you want to do diplomacy, try teamspeak, much more useful than the forums)

(click to show/hide)

And you're forgetting that you're a gaylord bitchbaby.

Oh wait, I'm supposed to be roleplaying.

Avast, yonder moor is a knave!

Spergnerd bitchbaby.

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Aztek on February 14, 2013, 03:04:01 am
And you're forgetting that you're a gaylord bitchbaby.

Oh wait, I'm supposed to be roleplaying.

Avast, yonder moor is a knave!

Spergnerd bitchbaby.


Not sure if your trying to be over dramatic and funny, or angry and distasteful!? Either way people on here have their opinions, sometimes I don't agree but degrading someone is always a bit much. I for one have a lot of respect for Huesby and we think a like on most situations, with that being said I still don't understand why your so upset over his transparent observation on how others see things and how they project it on the forums!?

Regardless, These issue's are old, enough so that we should not be dwelling on them further.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Krosis on February 14, 2013, 04:03:11 am
Considering you have to be the one attacking to lose troops to timers, it's certainly not occitan "strategy" that made us lose those troops but our own miscalculation. I made sure to separate everything so that one could make his own mind of it all. In the case of the catapult bugs, I'm talking about the bug that made it impossible to make more catapult after the first 2 catapults were destroyed. Considering that the lack of catapults in those particular castle make attacking it a lot more deadly, it IS worth mentioning. Same with timer kills since we now know that any army bigger than 1500 for a field battle is a waste and probably won't happen unless we're desperate.

It's not LCO strategy no, but you keep mentioning this like it was your fault those troops were killed off timer.. part of it could be that but the fact that these battles have been so well defended has a lot to do with it too. Obviously rushing your armies against the great defenses is not going to be any better, and it's not going to make a difference, in fact it would have only made the battles more of a massacre. The reason I mention this is because you don't seem to be giving LCO any props for how these battles have been going on but at the same time this is understandable.

Quote
I really didn't think I had to explain that since it's pretty straightforward, Krosis. You may want to think a bit before posting if you don't know what i'm talking about and pretty much calling me a liar.



I'm not calling you a liar, I'm saying to try to hide the real numbers by throwing out "excuses", and technically that's what they are. I can understand the one battle where both armies had the gear glitch, but as far as "timer" and "catapult glitch" these types of problems happen to other clans, not just yours.

I'm just saying it doesn't seem like you're being a good sport about it. Not calling you a liar, but like I said I understand your point of view and why you would be mad about this, but even if I do remember LCO talking about their glitch against Frisia, they also gave them props.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on February 14, 2013, 04:05:50 am
(click to show/hide)

It's all for my own pointless shits and giggles m8.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Artyem on February 14, 2013, 04:10:59 am
You're forgetting they didn't attack you to be the big bad meany trying to take candy from a baby.  They had a reason for attacking Rindyar, but you can ignore that and pretend you're the helpless child being harassed for your candy.


I don't think you quite understand that the only faction with a halfway legitimate casus belli (reason for war) happened to be Hero Party, who had a claim on New Rindyar.  While it is legitimate, it is also disputable as the owner of the fief was not in the HP Strategus Faction and gave the castle away to FCC following a raid (which was followed by negotiations).  The owner of the castle could have kept the castle and waited for reinforcements from HP, yet they instead decided to cede the lands to the Companies.  FCC then sold the fief to Frisia, who was at the time forging an alliance with NH.

So, Hero Party decided to strike and take back their lands, they sent approximately 2,700 troops followed by some thousand Occitan troops.  Hero Party's force, lead by Shik, turned around and headed to go raid a fief in the distant edge of FCC's border.  Occitan used what could be called an alliance casus belli (for you EU3 players) and marched in instead to grab the castle for Hero Party, which was already using a faulty, disputable, reason for war.

The drama that followed was mostly just Fimbulvetr and friends calling out HP and Occitan for being the massive hypocrites that they are as they attacked a small 10 man faction under the pretense that it was, indeed, a small ten man faction.  Once they discovered that it was not as small as they had previously guessed and that they indeed had allies, they began to bitch about being outnumbered, being the under dogs, and of course this only got worse when VE jumped in for a land grab.

The point I'm trying to make is that Hero Party and Occitan's reason for attacking Frisia is arguable and is without solid backing.  Although it'd be nice to see everyone quit this "NO WE R TEH TROO UNDRDOGZ!!#11!!1!" bullshit.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Commodore_Axephante on February 14, 2013, 04:17:17 am
I wonder if, in the massive escalation and rush to war that happened after the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, all of the nations that snowballed themselves into involvement were yelling:

"NO WE R TEH TROO UNDRDOGZ!!#11!!1!"

That stated, I think we should follow that historical example, and every single NA strat faction should get involved on one side or the other. Veluca did it - why shouldn't you?
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Lt_Anders on February 14, 2013, 04:19:14 am
That stated, I think we should follow that historical example, and every single NA strat faction should get involved on one side or the other. Veluca did it - why shouldn't you?

Here's a better question: When are the last neutrals going to march for their wars?

The wars going on now, so now is the time to get in on it! XP FOR EVERYONE!
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Fringe on February 15, 2013, 04:24:50 am
Damn, in a war game you wouldn't expect everybody to flinch at the thought of "War."

You know what, if you happen to be a weaker faction in strat and you get wiped then you just learned how the food-chain works. One fault in this game compared to what happens in a real life situation is that in "real life" when you get wiped as a kingdom you're fucking 6 foot under and can't mumble a Goddamn word. But in this game once you get your ass kicked you post up a shit storm on the forums and you never hear the end of it. If you enter strat as a small "kingdom" then you should know the repercussions of that fact, and if you're neighbored to a larger faction then realize you might take one in the ass.

Nice to see some larger battles coming up though, (shit that I've missed every damn one.) Healthy xp for all.

By the way why do I never see all these players that everybody's claiming are in HP and all these other factions. In every war I've come across everybody pulls out these over-exaggerated statistics of how many people are in a clan. I hope they don't take all those afks as legit numbers or just use it to bitch about how unfair it is that they're getting their ass whooped. Besides HoC, I've never seen over 10-15 guys from one clan help in one of their battles.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Rikthor on February 15, 2013, 04:42:31 am
Stuff

It's called propaganda, and propaganda can win wars alone.

Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Casimir on February 15, 2013, 06:20:44 am
Strategus wars are fought as much with swords and horses as with keyboards and arguments.  Defeat on either the field or the forums can change the outcome of the war.
Title: Re: So the call rang...
Post by: Visconti on February 15, 2013, 06:45:49 am
It's not LCO strategy no, but you keep mentioning this like it was your fault those troops were killed off timer.. part of it could be that but the fact that these battles have been so well defended has a lot to do with it too. Obviously rushing your armies against the great defenses is not going to be any better, and it's not going to make a difference, in fact it would have only made the battles more of a massacre. The reason I mention this is because you don't seem to be giving LCO any props for how these battles have been going on but at the same time this is understandable.


I'm not calling you a liar, I'm saying to try to hide the real numbers by throwing out "excuses", and technically that's what they are. I can understand the one battle where both armies had the gear glitch, but as far as "timer" and "catapult glitch" these types of problems happen to other clans, not just yours.

I'm just saying it doesn't seem like you're being a good sport about it. Not calling you a liar, but like I said I understand your point of view and why you would be mad about this, but even if I do remember LCO talking about their glitch against Frisia, they also gave them props.

The timer was our fault, even if its a pretty shitty mechanic, but you youself said you had never seen the catapult glitch, so no, it only happened to us. And its a pretty crippling bug too, on that castle, with no catapults, its nothing but a massacre. And we have never taken away for Occitans performance in battle, were just trying to report and get these bugs fixed so we can have a good war. So far haven't seen any problems though, and the battles have been hella fun, nice to defend for once.