cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Leshma on February 04, 2013, 03:11:51 am

Title: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Leshma on February 04, 2013, 03:11:51 am
You say rain chance is 15%, yes it is raining more times than it isn't.

You say knockdown chance is not that high, yet it is happening all the time with every weapon that has that tag.

Before paulstagger got removed, you said chance to happen isn't abnormaly high yet it happened all the time.

Supposedly there's a formula that calculates damage yet it is awfully random, I haven't seen more random thing related to computers so far. True random number generator.

There's something terribly wrong with the way numbers work in this game, I just don't know what.
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Bjord on February 04, 2013, 03:17:20 am
There's something terribly wrong.

Your brain?

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Vodner on February 04, 2013, 03:37:42 am
Quote
Before paulstagger got removed, you said chance to happen isn't abnormaly high yet it happened all the time.
Polestun was a flat 50% chance, so long as you passed an (very) low damage threshold.

Quote
Supposedly there's a formula that calculates damage yet it is awfully random, I haven't seen more random thing related to computers so far. True random number generator.
Cmp posted the formula for this on the Taleworlds Forums (http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?topic=168722.0) a long while back. Unfortunately both soak and reduce are heavily randomized, and raw damage has 10% variability
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Smoothrich on February 04, 2013, 03:43:01 am
Two-hander selection bias.  Always dying to dumb mechanics like 1hand knockdown, polestagger, missing a juke cuz of rain, massive ranged damage.  Incidents of this screwing you over are over-represented in your memory compared to times they didn't trigger.

Every class is full of rage-inducing things that can kill you without it feeling like it was your fault.  One of the reasons cRPG/Warband isn't that great of a game, design wise.  A lot of it has been tweaked and adjusted by cRPG devs, but not all.
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: owens on February 04, 2013, 03:51:21 am


This one of the reasons I think that all values in this game should be represented as bars (Health, wpf, weapon damage, speed).

A lot less people would complain about the bull shit that happens within the warband engine if they didn't know how far the numbers can be from the truth.

Seriously now.
 When it comes to the relationship between athletics, strength weight penalty and speed the numbers are useless. I would love to see an effective health and effective athletics bar on the inventory page.

 I would also like to see my speed bonus/panalty when I land a hit on someone. Even if I don't actually find out the damage dealt.
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Leshma on February 04, 2013, 03:55:41 am
Two-hander selection bias.  Always dying to dumb mechanics like 1hand knockdown, polestagger, missing a juke cuz of rain, massive ranged damage.  Incidents of this screwing you over are over-represented in your memory compared to times they didn't trigger.

Every class is full of rage-inducing things that can kill you without it feeling like it was your fault.  One of the reasons cRPG/Warband isn't that great of a game, design wise.  A lot of it has been tweaked and adjusted by cRPG devs, but not all.

This isn't rage thread. I don't rage because of game mechanics, people and their behavior is what pisses me off and that has nothing to do with the way game works. Just think that its a bit odd, that's all.
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Count_Curtis on February 04, 2013, 08:22:32 am
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORING thread
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: BlueKnight on February 04, 2013, 12:03:13 pm
You say rain chance is 15%, yes it is raining more times than it isn't.
I thought that rain chance was DaveUKR-based...

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Tibe on February 04, 2013, 01:58:45 pm
Im happy! :D
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Tore on February 04, 2013, 02:05:32 pm
MUST BALANCE RENOWN AND IMFAMY
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Butan on February 04, 2013, 02:49:24 pm
Randomness > Predictability



Two extreme scenarios :

- the most negative = random stray shot to the head, lance couched in the back, overwhelmed by several players at once, one shotted by any kind of weapon, miss all blocks, die shamefully (bonus: very short lifespan); you are a loser

- the most positive = block everything, dont miss a shot/throw, get plenty of kills/headshot kills, outmatch every opponent, everything glances on you or do little damage, win a round by yourself (bonus: very long lifespan); you are a hero



All the scenarios between being a loser and being a hero equals to all the game experience you can have, and they can happen with any build/gear/skill : having those 3 maxed enhances the chance of being a hero but doesnt give you a 100% chance.

You can not control the outcome of a battle, cRPG engine is clearly aimed toward that, and it is one of the greatest element of this mod.




Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: cmp on February 04, 2013, 02:50:46 pm
Have to agree 100% ....

Some times I need 5 full hits for a medium armored opponent with my mw longsword, next time I 2 hit an fully lommed str crutcher with +3 plate.

It is so fucking random, make it more stable for gods sake.

The random range of the soak formula isn't even close to what you describe; the difference is caused by other factors that are hard to predict but definitely not random, like speed bonus and sweetspots.
Would you like us to remove those as well and make attacks deal a fixed amount of damage no matter what?
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Miwiw on February 04, 2013, 02:52:57 pm
10 HP per hit, no matter what weapon you use? I see 30 STR + builds incoming then!

I like stuff being randomly, not a 100% though but a lot of it.

Quote
You can not control the outcome of a battle, cRPG engine is clearly aimed toward that, and it is one of the greatest element of this mod.

People tend to want to be a hero though, see Leshma for example. A stupid thought however.
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Osiris on February 04, 2013, 02:56:20 pm
well melee is a pretty random thing :P im sure if you tried to hit someone with a sword you would hit slightly differently every time, you may glance you may not :P if your a better player then you will win anyway
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Kafein on February 04, 2013, 02:57:56 pm
well melee is a pretty random thing :P im sure if you tried to hit someone with a sword you would hit slightly differently every time, you may glance you may not :P if your a better player then you will win anyway

Glancing or frequent lucky chamberblocks will get you killed no matter how good you are.
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Osiris on February 04, 2013, 02:59:22 pm
thats just part of battle luck :P its a battle after all not chess a stay arrow could hit you in the face etc
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Umbra on February 04, 2013, 03:03:19 pm
People only remember the fuckups, they dont remember the times they deal a good blow, or when they didnt get damadged a lot by an arrow, when it didnt rain etc.

Its all in your head
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Butan on February 04, 2013, 03:13:52 pm
People only remember the fuckups, they dont remember the times they deal a good blow, or when they didnt get damadged a lot by an arrow, when it didnt rain etc.

Its all in your head


Exactly.



What makes me laugh inside is when I am on teamspeak with people that complains a lot (oldmy old friends). They cry tears each time they are hurt by anything.


Then when they ram a spear into an opponent face, or strike someone in the back, headshot a random dude, win their duel with a shameful move... You know, the kind of thing that makes the guy you just killed cry tears on his own teamspeak.

What do you hear on TS then? Complete silence  :lol: (it is only natural! I deserve it!  :mrgreen:)
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on February 04, 2013, 03:14:58 pm
Increase rain chance to 75%.
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Rebelyell on February 04, 2013, 03:39:34 pm
The random range of the soak formula isn't even close to what you describe; the difference is caused by other factors that are hard to predict but definitely not random, like speed bonus and sweetspots.
Would you like us to remove those as well and make attacks deal a fixed amount of damage no matter what?

sweetspots

wow!! soo there are parts of armor that dosent protect so well like others?
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Dalhi on February 04, 2013, 03:43:12 pm
wow!! soo there are parts of armor that dosent protect so well like others?

Yes, I always aim for armpit where armour is weakest.
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Tibe on February 04, 2013, 03:48:47 pm
People only remember the fuckups, they dont remember the times they deal a good blow, or when they didnt get damadged a lot by an arrow, when it didnt rain etc.

Its all in your head

Feels like it. Personally if barely experienced rain at all in this game. Polestagger really hasnt bothered me that much and making damage completely depends on the aim of the hits I make. One thing I doo strongly agree with it is knockdown. It feels like its more like 60% chance to knock a guy down.

And speaking of sweetspots and heads. I usually aim for the face.
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 04, 2013, 04:55:44 pm
Reminds me of all the times my wife says "you never put the oven mitt away", even though I put it away 90% of the time when I use it, she only sees the 10% of the time I don't put it away, so to her (in her mind/perception) I never put it away.

Most things in life can be chalked up to what Umbra said "it's all in your head"
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Kelugarn on February 04, 2013, 06:27:19 pm
Reminds me of all the times my wife says "you never put the oven mitt away", even though I put it away 90% of the time when I use it, she only sees the 10% of the time I don't put it away, so to her (in her mind/perception) I never put it away.

Most things in life can be chalked up to what Umbra said "it's all in your head"

So much truth.
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Leshma on February 04, 2013, 07:15:13 pm
People tend to want to be a hero though, see Leshma for example. A stupid thought however.

Not anymore. Now I'm support. Only reason why I was trying hard is because I wanted to get in one of the stronger and bigger clans. Now when I don't have that ambition anymore (wrong I still want that but have certain technical difficulties which I can't overcome easily) no need for trying hard. Trying to enjoy the game, just like everyone else.
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Tears of Destiny on February 04, 2013, 07:18:49 pm
...(wrong I still want that but have certain technical difficulties which I can't overcome easily)...


Off-topic, but I personally would enjoy seeing you hang out in the Fallen Teamspeak, even if it is just to listen and play silently with us, we don't expect every player to talk (the mic/talking bit is optional), just listen and play together. We only require speaking individuals if they ever want to take leadership roles. I also imagine that there are several other clans with like-minded mentalities. We've had similar players in the past like Marked One or Strider.
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: San on February 04, 2013, 07:24:29 pm
The random range of the soak formula isn't even close to what you describe; the difference is caused by other factors that are hard to predict but definitely not random, like speed bonus and sweetspots.
Would you like us to remove those as well and make attacks deal a fixed amount of damage no matter what?

Why have the random factors at all when the deterministic factors provide enough variability in damage already?
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Butan on February 04, 2013, 07:24:43 pm
I wanted to get in one of the stronger and bigger clans...

You want to be in my clan ? why you didnt say so !  :P

Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Turboflex on February 04, 2013, 07:30:27 pm
Nothing wrong with some randomness to abstract real life hitboxes not modelled in the game engine. For example in a fight if someone had a small gap in armor, maybe in armpit, or a joint, or a large visor perhaps a skilled/lucky opponent could land a fatal blow there which would otherwise not be so deadly if it had missed the weak spot and hit a stronger section instead? Being impossible to model this in warband, randomness abstracts it.
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Osiris on February 04, 2013, 07:34:23 pm
Not anymore. Now I'm support. Only reason why I was trying hard is because I wanted to get in one of the stronger and bigger clans. Now when I don't have that ambition anymore (wrong I still want that but have certain technical difficulties which I can't overcome easily) no need for trying hard. Trying to enjoy the game, just like everyone else.


there are very few clans who recruit only on skill ^^
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Tears of Destiny on February 04, 2013, 07:36:17 pm

there are very few clans who recruit only on skill ^^


The technical difficulties mentioned are unfortunately something separate from that.
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: cmp on February 04, 2013, 07:44:24 pm
Why have the random factors at all when the deterministic factors provide enough variability in damage already?

I dunno, ask TaleWorlds?
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Commodore_Axephante on February 04, 2013, 08:14:28 pm
People tend to want to be a hero though, see Leshma for example. A stupid thought however.

Am I the only player out here with the goal of becoming stupid-good at this game? Hell yeah I want to be a hero!

Time and experience will temper my ignorant ambition, but until then...
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on February 04, 2013, 10:45:08 pm
Two-hander selection bias.  Always dying to dumb mechanics like 1hand knockdown, polestagger, missing a juke cuz of rain, massive ranged damage.  Incidents of this screwing you over are over-represented in your memory compared to times they didn't trigger.

Every class is full of rage-inducing things that can kill you without it feeling like it was your fault.  One of the reasons cRPG/Warband isn't that great of a game, design wise.  A lot of it has been tweaked and adjusted by cRPG devs, but not all.
While this is true I'd just like to point out that the other day I was fighting that one Ecorcheur polearmer in full plate with high str on EU_3 for a while, I counted the fights, the hits, and the knockdown. Six out of nine fights I got knocked down on the first hit and killed afterwards, one out of the nine fights I got hit once then knocked down the next hit and killed afterwards, one out of the nine I got onehit so no idea if it would have knocked me down, and the last fight I survived, one of the fights I had picked up a 3+ 1h warhammer, I knocked down on the second hit on him, this is to damn random, needs to be some form of feature stopping extreme luck from playing as big a role as it does now in these things.
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Leesin on February 05, 2013, 12:46:55 am
Okay, lower knockdown chance, just hope you are prepared for a damage buff for those then-nerfed weapons :).
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Angantyr on February 05, 2013, 12:48:20 am
15% rain certainly feels like a whole lot if you play a few hours..
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: zagibu on February 05, 2013, 01:08:46 am
If possible, knockdown should only happen when legs are hit.
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Bronto on February 05, 2013, 01:58:52 am
If possible, knockdown should only happen when legs are hit.

lol! No one in history has ever been knocked down by being hit in the chest or head.......ever....your thought process is amusing.
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Butan on February 05, 2013, 01:59:46 am
If possible, knockdown should only happen when legs are hit.


Then knockdowner will aim the legs ^^

Its better if the overall knockdown chance was reduced
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: BlueKnight on February 05, 2013, 03:47:23 am

Then knockdowner will aim the legs ^^

Its better if the overall knockdown chance was reduced
Ye, all in all it's a feature of a weapon not a primary use of it.
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Paul on February 05, 2013, 07:24:24 am
Why have the random factors at all when the deterministic factors provide enough variability in damage already?

My wild guess why TW randomised armor so much in the damage calc is that it was kinda needed in bot vs bot fights(single player). Without it a huge group of low levels (peasants, river pirates) could never ever damage a lone knight. They don't know how to hold their attack for maximum damage or how to use speed bonus.

With the randomisation sooner or later low armor rolls happen, giving the zerg at least a chance to wear the knight down. With much fantasy one could it see as the representation of some kind of armor weakspot mechanic.
Title: Re: What is wrong with numbers in this game (engine)
Post by: Joseph Porta on February 05, 2013, 12:51:57 pm
I am a hero already, after months of hard labour and wasting my looms on aestethic(dont hate idk how to spell it!) items i have become a pro in charging the enemy without any conscience of possible objectives that would increase the likelyness of winning a round.   :evil:

On the op discussion, quite frankly idgaf about what they change or dont change, if the chance appears higher thenit should be, and i didnt even notice the turn rate differences between eu1 and eu2, changing class every 30min, now THAT needs some adjusting. Ofcourse i like other changes more then others but hey, thats hw shit works. :)

I sometimes wonder how people can be aware of such little changes, it's like their style of play resolves around single things, rather then combinations. :/