cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Huey Newton on April 29, 2011, 06:19:07 am

Title: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Huey Newton on April 29, 2011, 06:19:07 am
Cavalry lancing got completely overhauled
You can now only thrust in the direction your horse was facing when u held down the lance attack.
Its a very small area of attack given.
Also dragging the lance to a different side is jacked up
You have to basically drive-by someone with your lance


This is crap imo

and from what I have analyzed I am fairly certain cRPG will see a HUGE influx in Light Lances, War Spears, and HIGH Manueveribility horses. Arabian and Desert horses will be bought up like crack on the corner.

Goodbye Coursers and Heavy Lances

The Game
Has Changed
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Turkhammer on April 29, 2011, 06:21:53 am
The King is dead, long live the King.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: tankmen on April 29, 2011, 06:22:58 am
ya huey im going 1h crossbow, or honestly taking a break from crpg since i lost my gen xp bonus.....
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Joseph on April 29, 2011, 06:23:07 am
I don't want to be mean, but... There is now a "Long Pike"
280 Length, Goodbye cav ! :oops:
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: vinnytk on April 29, 2011, 06:25:14 am
Cav is impossible now   :(
Title: Cav Lance aim
Post by: McNoodles on April 29, 2011, 06:33:00 am
Just wondering what was going on with lances on horseback... So it looks like thrust aim has been restricted to the same window as a couched lance. Which I can deal with. But I find it very difficult to consistently control which side of the horses head the lance is directed when menuvering. It is hard to accurately describe the problem, it seems like when turning the horse, the camera angle has less of an impact on the direction of the lance than the turning input.... dunno if that makes any sense. Pre-patch I had never experienced anything like this. Anyhow, I dig the new website, and the new hafted blade cav animation (still forming opinion about the rest). Looks like a lot of work went into it all!
Title: Re: Cav Lance aim
Post by: Zahmbomb on April 29, 2011, 06:58:41 am
It is hard to accurately describe the problem

I would use the words "fail patch, is fail." to describe this problem.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Zahmbomb on April 29, 2011, 07:00:12 am
Cav is not cav anymore.
Its just men on horses getting poked.

Cav did not need a nerf at all.  If people whine and complain about all the horses we tell them to get a pike.
They buy pikes and cav stays away.

Patch

Cav cant do shit and they still have pikes.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Devilize on April 29, 2011, 07:27:56 am
im not one for complaining about nerfs or changes to the mod but if i was a new person coming into this mod, i enjoyed playing cav, wanted to pick it up in this and then had this kinda first impression i would /wrists and uninstall. Doesn't make sense, isn't balanced and the person(s) behind it are probably to pussy to give a logical reason why. I can only hope that it was an oversight and will be tended to via hotfix.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Earthdforce on April 29, 2011, 07:31:11 am
Yeah, this new patch did nothing good for the game, and is going to chase away a lot of members. Hope whoever decided to do this is happy..
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: PikeDan on April 29, 2011, 07:39:17 am
So far, I've seen Throwers get the wussiest nerf in the game, 1 1/2 handers getting fucked with two slot weapons and a shit stab, considering their range and Cav getting this shit slung onto them for no reason when they had very little reason to be nerfed in the first place. (Because, let's face it. With the proliferation of Pikes and xbows before this patch, you couldn't even run into combat, you where effectively unable to do your job as a cav due to the amount of 0wpf xbows and pikes everywhere.)

Honestly, this doesn't bother *me*, because I'm currently an Archer and Long Bows have pierce damage back, but as for the game at a whole, I feel that it's not a good idea and that it'll make some builds even more OP than before.

And for fuck's sake, lower throwing damage already, or cause them to take up too many slots to be useful past the first one or two throws, people are still stocking up on throwing axes and chucking 'em like crazy, you're busy re-animating 2h and bows all the time, but throwing isn't changed at all, when it really needs it bad.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: MountedRhader on April 29, 2011, 07:45:35 am
Gah so much for going cavalry..
I understand you were pure cav. Huey.
Sorry man! :(
Title: Undo Caverly Lance Changes
Post by: Phosphorus on April 29, 2011, 07:52:01 am
It's unrealistic and unnecessary. "Long" Pike is already enough of a nerf, in addition to the out-of-whack new upkeep (which I hope is a bug.)
Title: Re: Undo Caverly Lance Changes
Post by: Huey Newton on April 29, 2011, 07:54:43 am
I completly support this suggestion

Cavalry got nerfed in a huge way for no reason

I will do everything in my power to get this restored
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Odion on April 29, 2011, 08:01:49 am
nerfing is the one thing that destroys games, you nerf one item and guess what? you have to nerf the other to balance it out.
SO STOP NERFING THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE GAME

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Undo Caverly Lance Changes
Post by: Devilize on April 29, 2011, 08:04:00 am
i support this as well.
Title: How To Kill Off An Entire Class
Post by: Huey Newton on April 29, 2011, 08:08:43 am
Limit the range of movement on a class that relies SOLELY on angles and pinpoint accuracy.
The very nature of Cavalry lancing is defined by angling your horse with exquisite control and lancing the perfect spot to hit what you want to hit.


Not only is lancing stationary objects that won't even fight back hard now,

but LANCING MOVING HORSES is next to impossible now.


The entire dynamics of lancing while panning view and having spatial awareness of your surroundings is now inexplicably hindered for NO GOOD REASON



Trust me i've been lancing for a long time I know what I'm talking about when it comes to Cavalry

I find it extremely difficult to lance things, so how do you expect a newer player with less experience to have any drop of joy in being a horseman in this mod?
Noone is going to want to be Cavalry

This change to lancing will see a MASSIVE dropoff in Cavalry players

I'm the Co-leader of a CAVALRY CLAN

you just nerfed my clan

You may have just killed my clan

Time will tell


Just in case this is all true....thanks alot



Oh and when you vote, try not to base your vote off of anger in your class being nerfed, or you being killed by Cavalry too much, or you being FF bumped by Cav


I urge people to please try to take a neutral view of this predicament and base your choice off of that
Title: Re: How To Kill Off An Entire Class
Post by: Nasturtium on April 29, 2011, 08:12:08 am
I understand you are upset but why don't we all calm down and wait a few days.
Title: Re: How To Kill Off An Entire Class
Post by: tankmen on April 29, 2011, 08:14:56 am
I understand you are upset but why don't we all calm down and wait a few days.
GTFO YOUR LOGIC BRO I WAS CAV *WAS*
Title: Re: How To Kill Off An Entire Class
Post by: Huey Newton on April 29, 2011, 08:15:08 am
I understand you are upset but why don't we all calm down and wait a few days.

Perhaps you are right, however I'm fighting for the class I live and Die to play for in this mod

If there is no reason to Cav,

I have no reason to play this mod
 :cry:
Title: Re: How To Kill Off An Entire Class
Post by: Gurnisson on April 29, 2011, 08:29:19 am
Always the same, someone raging right after the patch comes out. At least try it out a few days before judging it. Other classes have been nerfed as well, so maybe that'll even it out? Also, even though I'm not cavalry I was against a cav nerf, since being cav is just situational. If the enemy team has a brain, or you're playing on a bad map, you can do little to no damage. I don't agree with the fact that cav got a nerf just because the population couldn't use their brain to handle them.
Title: Re: How To Kill Off An Entire Class
Post by: Paul on April 29, 2011, 08:30:52 am
lolshik - toldyaso
Title: Re: Undo Caverly Lance Changes
Post by: MountedRhader on April 29, 2011, 08:31:17 am
What did cav ever do to the dev team?!?
Title: Re: Undo Caverly Lance Changes
Post by: Zahmbomb on April 29, 2011, 08:47:36 am
What did cav ever do to the dev team?!?

got killed at spawn
Title: Re: How To Kill Off An Entire Class
Post by: ManOfWar on April 29, 2011, 09:01:43 am
Was pre patch cav stabbing OP?
Title: Re: How To Kill Off An Entire Class
Post by: Cyclopsided on April 29, 2011, 09:04:19 am
No, lancing was really easy to counter pre patch. I neve rhad a problem vs cav as infantry.
And you guys added my Long Pike :D:DD:D::::DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

yeah revert cav seriously.
Title: Re: How To Kill Off An Entire Class
Post by: Zahmbomb on April 29, 2011, 09:12:16 am
try it out a few days

Really bro... you must be joking... cause I loled...
Cav is ridiculous now.  Its impossible.  The only nerf that cav needs is a skilled piker.  It was hard before charging towards a spear, light lance, and heavy lance.  Dumb as shit to charge into a pike, and yet they nerf cav and add a "long pike"... rofl...

You better figure this out, because i think that with the timing of the patch, without strategus, and the release of With Fire and Sword, a lot of players will quit playing which means less donations.

Title: Re: How To Kill Off An Entire Class
Post by: VicTheBear on April 29, 2011, 09:17:42 am
Cav is broken.
And what about HA. I know we all hate them but how can you be HA now? Can't.
Title: Re: Undo Caverly Lance Changes
Post by: Nemeth on April 29, 2011, 09:32:49 am
I will do everything in my power to get this restored

Says the random players number 2241.
Title: Re: How To Kill Off An Entire Class
Post by: Gurnisson on April 29, 2011, 09:42:24 am
Really bro... you must be joking... cause I loled...
Cav is ridiculous now.  Its impossible.  The only nerf that cav needs is a skilled piker.  It was hard before charging towards a spear, light lance, and heavy lance.  Dumb as shit to charge into a pike, and yet they nerf cav and add a "long pike"... rofl...

Love how you quoted that bit only. I said I was against a cav nerf, but from previous experiences, I know that you have to play for more than half an hour to make something out of a completely new patch.
Title: Re: How To Kill Off An Entire Class
Post by: chadz on April 29, 2011, 09:48:37 am
its adressed in the hotfix
Title: Re: How To Kill Off An Entire Class
Post by: Joseph on April 29, 2011, 09:48:54 am
Love how you quoted that bit only. I said I was against a cav nerf, but from previous experiences, I know that you have to play for more than half an hour to make something out of a completely new patch.

When you see someone laying dead on the ground, do you wait a few days to make a better opinion?

NO, dead means dead, simple as that.
Title: Re: How To Kill Off An Entire Class
Post by: tankmen on April 29, 2011, 09:50:42 am
When you see someone laying dead on the ground, do you wait a few days to make a better opinion?

NO, dead means dead, simple as that.
indeed
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: VicTheBear on April 29, 2011, 10:01:43 am
nerfing is the one thing that destroys games, you nerf one item and guess what? you have to nerf the other to balance it out.
SO STOP NERFING THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE GAME

{spoiler}its like the story of the boy who snuck down stairs to eat some of his mothers birthday cake. when he took a bite out of one side, he noticed it was no longer symmetrical so he took a bite out of the other end but this still caused the cake to be uneven. this kept going until there was no cake left! (cake is the players, boy is the developers{/spoiler}

but the cake is a lie
Title: Re: How To Kill Off An Entire Class
Post by: Zahmbomb on April 29, 2011, 10:06:26 am
its adressed in the hotfix

that was fast.

im sorry i raged good sir.

i live and die on my courser, Geoffrey.

but tonight i was just dying.

it was hell.
Title: Re: How To Kill Off An Entire Class
Post by: John on April 29, 2011, 10:08:40 am
Cav is broken.
And what about HA. I know we all hate them but how can you be HA now? Can't.

Good riddance. 

But I suppose horse archers being gone for good is just wishful thinking...
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Zahmbomb on April 29, 2011, 10:16:59 am
nerfing is the one thing that destroys games, you nerf one item and guess what? you have to nerf the other to balance it out.
SO STOP NERFING THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE GAME

(click to show/hide)
but the cake is a lie
so then... the chadz is a lie?
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Lorn on April 29, 2011, 10:19:01 am
im not one for complaining about nerfs or changes to the mod but if i was a new person coming into this mod, i enjoyed playing cav, wanted to pick it up in this and then had this kinda first impression i would /wrists and uninstall. Doesn't make sense, isn't balanced and the person(s) behind it are probably to pussy to give a logical reason why. I can only hope that it was an oversight and will be tended to via hotfix.

One of the devs *cougshicough* decided that it would be a good idea to roll back to one of the Warband Multiplayer Beta versions of how lancing worked.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: VicTheBear on April 29, 2011, 10:40:32 am
so then... the chadz is a lie?

No no noooo.
chadz is the mother.
Cake = players = lies.
Or something...
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: BlackMilk on April 29, 2011, 10:47:15 am
Cav was op as fuck. A half decent cavguy could easily get a score of 10-1 with a rouncey.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Zahmbomb on April 29, 2011, 10:56:33 am
Cav was op as fuck. A half decent cavguy could easily get a score of 10-1 with a rouncey.

a half decent ninja could easily get 5-1 with an unbuffed katana  :idea:
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: VicTheBear on April 29, 2011, 10:58:10 am
A half-decent anybody could get a half-decent k/d...
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Daergar on April 29, 2011, 11:05:46 am
Cav was op as fuck. A half decent cavguy could easily get a score of 10-1 with a rouncey.

And one good archer can easily defeat anywhere from one to a handful of cavalry on his own. Add in a pike and you might as well just not use the horse in the first place.

Cavalry has a place as the hammer in that old and useful tactic, but that does not make it overpowered. Especially not in a random battle or siege where everyone and their mother kills horses like it gave you a trophy and free ice-cream.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Zahmbomb on April 29, 2011, 11:08:46 am
A half-decent anybody could get a half-decent k/d...

Master of the obvious or jedi
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: BlackMilk on April 29, 2011, 11:23:10 am
a half decent ninja could easily get 5-1 with an unbuffed katana  :idea:
unbuffed katana? what are you talking about?

And one good archer can easily defeat anywhere from one to a handful of cavalry on his own.
Of course, but he cant do this with a hunting bow.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Kafein on April 29, 2011, 11:39:00 am
Of course, but he cant do this with a hunting bow.


You sir, make me laugh.

A half-decent cavalry loadout will take 35k. The best archery gear is less than 20k worth.

So it's rather the opposite. The archer will allways have the bow of his choice. But the cavalry can't do shit whithout paying 2x what other classes spend for generally better results.



Now, this was a general statement about cavalry. I think that v0.212 had a growing problem of lancers becoming the only viable melee cav build, and 1h completly useless in comparison. Furthermore, the sarranid horse was dominating everything, so I hope it got nerfed in comparison to other horses. It doesn't seem so, as it still has crazy maneuver.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Ujin on April 29, 2011, 11:50:10 am


Now, this was a general statement about cavalry. I think that v0.212 had a growing problem of lancers becoming the only viable melee cav build, and 1h completly useless in comparison. Furthermore, the sarranid horse was dominating everything, so I hope it got nerfed in comparison to other horses. It doesn't seem so, as it still has crazy maneuver.
And dies from one shot of  anything.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Paul on April 29, 2011, 11:51:33 am
Cav stab change was a mistake.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Gurnisson on April 29, 2011, 11:54:19 am
But the cavalry can't do shit whithout paying 2x what other classes spend for generally better results

Tried a dedicated crossbower before? It's ridiculously expensive.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Felix_Iron on April 29, 2011, 11:55:55 am
MOUNT and Blade?? hmmm... Any more MOUNT!!
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Magikarp on April 29, 2011, 12:25:38 pm
Tried a dedicated crossbower before? It's ridiculously expensive.
Go to hell, ever tried playing cavalry Gurnisson? Our cheap horses cost as much as your xbow. If I want to go for the best horses, I was paying much more than you ever would have. I don't even want to know what Im paying now. This is just low of you to respond in this way. Your class has been buffed, I don't see the point in whining.

Cav wasn't OP, it actually required skill to lance, a noob can't do it. I've seen them, they get piked and are dead within seconds. Now we are nerfed to a slow ass class, hitting for mediocre damage yet still paying the ridiculously high repair bill. What about our biggest counter? Pikers? They got a buff, now they are faster than us and got a new addition: the long pike. What about those archers one or twoshotting our horses? They got a buff too, yet were perfectly fine.

No one whined about cavalry, only ingame when they got backstabbed when they weren't paying attention.

If there was anything wrong with cav, than Id say the heirloomed sarranid horse was the only thing that was overpowered.

Fishy out.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Gurnisson on April 29, 2011, 12:35:45 pm
Go to hell, ever tried playing cavalry Gurnisson? Our cheap horses cost as much as your xbow. If I want to go for the best horses, I was paying much more than you ever would have.

Yes, I've played cav. When playing against the 'let's spread around with no tactics at all trololo' cav has got an easy ride. When the map is bad, or the enemy is doing some tactics, cav have a hard time doing anything at all. I have a cav alt but I haven't played on it for some time. I know it's quite expensive, but I had an easier ride paying upkeep as cav than as crossbower. Sarranid horse + Battle Fork + Heavy Lance + Nomad Vest. Really all I needed, but I could still rack up those 'cav score trololo nerf cav lol'. As cav you don't need tons of mail on you, you're mostly hit and run anyway. If you feel you need armor for ~ 10 000 denars, you're maybe not prioritizing right and should look to be a bit less reckless.

Cav wasn't OP, it actually required skill to lance, a noob can't do it. I've seen them, they get piked and are dead within seconds. Now we are nerfed to a slow ass class, hitting for mediocre damage yet still paying the ridiculously high repair bill. What about our biggest counter? Pikers? They got a buff, now they are faster than us and got a new addition: the long pike. What about those archers one or twoshotting our horses? They got a buff too, yet were perfectly fine.

To quote myself from another thread:
Also, even though I'm not cavalry I was against a cav nerf, since being cav is just situational. If the enemy team has a brain, or you're playing on a bad map, you can do little to no damage. I don't agree with the fact that cav got a nerf just because the population couldn't use their brain to handle them.
Cav is easy to deal with when you play smartly, so imo, a nerf wasn't needed.

Go to hell

Also, stupid way to start off a post
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: polkafranzi on April 29, 2011, 12:37:22 pm
Goodbye Mount & Blade

Welcome Pole & Bow

 :mad:
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: naduril on April 29, 2011, 12:38:56 pm
Cav wasn't OP at any time. Inf and ranged had pikes and bows and throwing. Now pole-cav is stupid frag. And its absolutely useless to buy shields. Heavy lance and hafted blade without shield. Or Heavy lance with shield and crappy iron staff. This is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Kafein on April 29, 2011, 12:41:10 pm
And dies from one shot of  anything.

Except that given it's size and maneuver, it is WAY easier to avoid being shot or hit. Any horse in the same price range is dead in two shots. And from now on, in one shot.

Now we have to avoid both throwers and archers. Kinda ridiculous given we are CAV afterall.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Overdriven on April 29, 2011, 12:43:32 pm
Except that given it's size and maneuver, it is WAY easier to avoid being shot or hit. Any horse in the same price range is dead in two shots. And from now on, in one shot.

Now we have to avoid both throwers and archers. Kinda ridiculous given we are CAV afterall.

It's really not. You can shoot that thing down easier than a courser because it's slower and less armour. I shoot down far more sarranid horses than I do coursers.

Cav has been nerfed ridiculously though. Return the lance to how it was. It was perfect and don't touch it.
Title: Re: How To Kill Off An Entire Class
Post by: Misan on April 29, 2011, 01:08:37 pm
Quote
Trust me i've been lancing for a long time I know what I'm talking about when it comes to Cavalry

"Just believe me! My opinion matters, FUCK YOU DAD!"
Title: Re: How To Kill Off An Entire Class
Post by: Magikarp on April 29, 2011, 01:55:57 pm
Love how you quoted that bit only. I said I was against a cav nerf, but from previous experiences, I know that you have to play for more than half an hour to make something out of a completely new patch.
Even an idiot playing for 10 seconds could find out what was different and wrong! with cavalry compared to yesterday.

I hope this hotfix changes us back to the balanced way of being cavalry. Instead of being a duck sitting on a pig getting shot at by archers and stabbed by pikers.

The way we were yersterday.
Title: Re: Undo Caverly Lance Changes
Post by: Huey Newton on April 29, 2011, 04:10:29 pm
Hmmm
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: naduril on April 29, 2011, 05:24:47 pm
Thanks, devs, for returning lance hitting on horseback.
But 65 speed rating for heavy lance? Why so slow? Pike is faster for 16 points and 55 points longer.
And about 2 slots for polearms. Only staff is 1 slot item? This way pole-cav has no sense to level up shields, because can wear only 1 lance and shield and staff (wooden) which is absoluteley useless. Please, could you make at least hafted blade (even not long) - 1 slot.
Lancers were nerfed much more than anyone, I don't really understand, why.
Title: Bring back all Lances' old damage/speed, Nerf Champion Arabian Horse = Cav Fix!
Post by: Magikarp on April 29, 2011, 06:56:25 pm
So, the hotfix brought back lance turning, thank god! But We are still not back to where we were: balanced.

So bring back the old damage and speed of lances, my double heirloomed lance only does 28 pierce damage, ridiculously low.
The speed of lances, why did that need a nerf anyway? To buff light lance as being the best lance? That's retarded.

Ultimately, this patch failed to fix heirloomed Sarranid(Now: Arabian) Horses. When loomed they are too fast and manouverable, the ultimately killing machine. They must no longer dominate the cavalry class no more, I say nerf manouverability on them.
Title: Re: Bring back all Lances' old damage/speed, Nerf Champion Arabian Horse = Cav Fix!
Post by: Kafein on April 29, 2011, 07:01:41 pm
So, the hotfix brought back lance turning, thank god! But We are still not back to where we were: balanced.

So bring back the old damage and speed of lances, my double heirloomed lance only does 28 pierce damage, ridiculously low.
The speed of lances, why did that need a nerf anyway? To buff light lance as being the best lance? That's retarded.

Ultimately, this patch failed to fix heirloomed Sarranid(Now: Arabian) Horses. When loomed they are too fast and manouverable, the ultimately killing machine. They must no longer dominate the cavalry class no more, I say nerf manouverability on them.

This.
Title: Re: Bring back all Lances' old damage/speed, Nerf Champion Arabian Horse = Cav F
Post by: Huey Newton on April 29, 2011, 07:25:40 pm
This.

agreed
light lance shouldn't be the beat
heavy lance has literally no use in cav on cav situations
Title: Re: Bring back all Lances' old damage/speed, Nerf Champion Arabian Horse = Cav F
Post by: Tears of Destiny on April 29, 2011, 07:30:48 pm
agreed
light lance shouldn't be the beat
heavy lance has literally no use in cav on cav situations

Last I checked... The heavy lance was used almost exclusively due to the better reach, and the light lance was the less popular of the two...  :|
Or maybe my alts are doing it wrong :/ I dunno but that extra 15 reach has saved me on several occasions for striking first...
Title: Re: Bring back all Lances' old damage/speed, Nerf Champion Arabian Horse = Cav F
Post by: Huey Newton on April 29, 2011, 07:35:01 pm
Last I checked... The heavy lance was used almost exclusively due to the better reach, and the light lance was the less popular of the two...  :|
Or maybe my alts are doing it wrong :/ I dunno but that extra 15 reach has saved me on several occasions for striking first...

have you seen what the patch has done to lances
the heavy is as slow as the long pike...

A good combination of speed and range are the makings of a good lance
good range with no speed is disaster

fail patch is fail
Title: Re: Bring back all Lances' old damage/speed, Nerf Champion Arabian Horse = Cav F
Post by: Magikarp on April 29, 2011, 07:36:20 pm
Last I checked... The heavy lance was used almost exclusively due to the better reach, and the light lance was the less popular of the two...  :|
Or maybe my alts are doing it wrong :/ I dunno but that extra 15 reach has saved me on several occasions for striking first...
Some used Light Lance for damage, which is understandable, since we don't deal that much these days. With this patch, we do even less damage. Fuck range when the other weapon has more speed and damage. That's why light lance is now better.

Maybe the person making tweaks to the cavalry class should actually play the class??
Title: Re: Bring back all Lances' old damage/speed, Nerf Champion Arabian Horse = Cav F
Post by: Tears of Destiny on April 29, 2011, 07:47:26 pm
Some used Light Lance for damage, which is understandable, since we don't deal that much these days. With this patch, we do even less damage. Fuck range when the other weapon has more speed and damage. That's why light lance is now better.

Maybe the person making tweaks to the cavalry class should actually play the class??

Hmm, I guess for my playstyle I don't mind as much, as my cav lancing involves a predictable target (another icnoming cav) and I have little difficulty setting up a lance. In melee I need quick reaction speeds to counterattack after I block, but on a horse, I can just easily tweak my speed and time my thrust to hit when I want considering there is no "counterattack" at high speeds, just one thrust at the proper time. Then again, with the slower armored horses this may be more difficult, but at least for the fast light lancers I don't see a problem (though now when I am dehorsed I am pretty much screwed more then ever with the slower speed)..
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Magikarp on April 29, 2011, 08:19:12 pm
2 slot items already nerfed us enough, with the exception of the most needed Arabian(Sarranid) Horse nerf.
We aren't able to take shields anymore+ a sidearm, so we must choose. On top of that our best shields now require 4 shield skill. Which I don't really get, our build now becomes worse by either 1 if, 1 athletics or 1 weapon master.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Keshian on April 29, 2011, 09:03:51 pm
The heavy lance thing kind of makes sense though youa re using a polearm as long as a pike with 1 hand you should be incredibly slow and not be able to stab like crazy with it.  Also, with lollancing attack back this class needs something to balance the fact that most people can't have pikes because they are autoamtically dropped and take 2-3 slots so cav already did better than most classes would completely dominate if some nerf didnt come in.  Its not that youw ere OP pre-patch, but that you would be post-patch with all the other classes but cav getting a nerf.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Rumblood on April 30, 2011, 02:17:07 am
Nerfed? I just saw Gaga wearing full plate, with a lance, a shield, and a long axe. What happened to slot nerf? Logged on to my archer and can no longer use the 2 handers due to slot restrictions unless Im content with 15 arrows (another nerf).

You can handle your horse nerf, Im certain of it. You aren't the only class effected.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on April 30, 2011, 02:19:47 am
Wohooo spears on horses are now more useful, as they should be!
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Native_ATS on April 30, 2011, 10:32:07 am
The heavy lance thing kind of makes sense though youa re using a polearm as long as a pike with 1 hand you should be incredibly slow and not be able to stab like crazy with it.  Also, with lollancing attack back this class needs something to balance the fact that most people can't have pikes because they are autoamtically dropped and take 2-3 slots so cav already did better than most classes would completely dominate if some nerf didnt come in.  Its not that youw ere OP pre-patch, but that you would be post-patch with all the other classes but cav getting a nerf.
lol soooo true, nerf the fuck out of cav i say, Cav is already easy mode, might as well nerf it till its nomal or takes some skill to use
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Huey Newton on April 30, 2011, 07:03:12 pm
lol soooo true, nerf the fuck out of cav i say, Cav is already easy mode, might as well nerf it till its nomal or takes some skill to use

yeah cav takes no skill

cav are noobs anyways...

throwing is what the pros do..  :lol:
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Magikarp on April 30, 2011, 11:50:06 pm
Ah the trolls already came in.

No, cav is also hurt by the slot update, we can't take 2 polearms anymore, which means we need to choose between a shield or a sidearm. When we switch to our sidearm(if we have one) we drop our lance too.

And as always: realism has nothing to do with balance! The friggin slow heavy lance is useless atm, making us fall back to lance's that shouldn't be a better option. Heavy lance should be the best lance, revert back now.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on May 01, 2011, 01:06:09 am
The heavy lance thing kind of makes sense though youa re using a polearm as long as a pike with 1 hand you should be incredibly slow and not be able to stab like crazy with it.

heavy lance 190 pike 245, they are not same lenght

Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Havoco on May 01, 2011, 02:59:27 am
Me thinks LoC should come back if a long pike was added.

It's true though, before .221 all I saw was heavy lances on horseback. At least with heavy lance nerfed the others wil see more uses.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Torp on May 01, 2011, 09:00:27 am
Me thinks LoC should come back if a long pike was added.

It's true though, before .221 all I saw was heavy lances on horseback. At least with heavy lance nerfed the others wil see more uses.

That just sucks when you've spend time heirlooming your heavy lance...
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Magikarp on May 01, 2011, 11:30:58 am
I'mf for heirlooming nerf, but not for this slow and low damage crap.
Heavy lance is dead, if you don't take (light) lance, you are screwed.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Tears of Destiny on May 01, 2011, 03:13:14 pm
I'mf for heirlooming nerf, but not for this slow and low damage crap.
Heavy lance is dead, if you don't take (light) lance, you are screwed.

I honestly disagree, as that extra length will certainly allow you to perform better against other horsemen. High speed passes the first person to strike will kill the other horse, and the heavy lance will strike first on high speed runs.

Against infantry though, sure the light lance is starting to look sexy.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Magikarp on May 01, 2011, 04:14:51 pm
The damage bonus we get from looming our lance is crap, the damage it deals from the start is crap.
Yet the devs think Arabian War Horse is fine, lol.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Huey Newton on May 01, 2011, 06:50:03 pm
I honestly disagree, as that extra length will certainly allow you to perform better against other horsemen. High speed passes the first person to strike will kill the other horse, and the heavy lance will strike first on high speed runs.

Against infantry though, sure the light lance is starting to look sexy.

unless you have over 150 wpf in polearm, the light lance is better than the heavy lance

Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Tears of Destiny on May 01, 2011, 06:51:46 pm
unless you have over 150 wpf in polearm, the light lance is better than the heavy lance

Besides the crucial length, then I agree. That extra 15 has helped me out more times then I can count. Now either I am fantastic against lancing other light lancers, or I am simply getting consistently absurdly lucky. For hitting anything but cav though, then sure use the light lance.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Magikarp on May 01, 2011, 07:55:18 pm
THe speed isnt the real problem here, it's the damage, the scaling is horrible atm, my double loomed heavy lance does 28 pierce now, on masterwork it does 30. Seriously?

Let's see how we got nerfed:
- Much lower damage
- Speed nerfed by a huge amount
- Useless on foot to use
- Shields require more shield skill, making us fall back to worse ones
- No more polearm sidearms with shield due to slot problem
- No more switching to sidearm without dropping our main weapon
- Long pike added a bigger counter
- Heirloom scaling very poor

And what did we get in return:
+ We kept the stats and scaling of the Sarranid (Arabian) Horse, the ultimate killing machine.

Woohoo! The devs nerfed the wrong item and still can't see the OPness of heirloomed Sarranid(Arabian) horses!
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on May 02, 2011, 12:48:16 am
THe speed isnt the real problem here, it's the damage, the scaling is horrible atm, my double loomed heavy lance does 28 pierce now, on masterwork it does 30. Seriously?

Let's see how we got nerfed:
- Much lower damage
- Speed nerfed by a huge amount
- Useless on foot to use
- Shields require more shield skill, making us fall back to worse ones
- No more polearm sidearms with shield due to slot problem
- No more switching to sidearm without dropping our main weapon
- Long pike added a bigger counter
- Heirloom scaling very poor

And what did we get in return:
+ We kept the stats and scaling of the Sarranid (Arabian) Horse, the ultimate killing machine.

Woohoo! The devs nerfed the wrong item and still can't see the OPness of heirloomed Sarranid(Arabian) horses!

they way I see it is that its not just our stats that have been attacked but inf and archers got a buff against us E.G the long pike is faster by 3 speed (it don't seem much but it is) and nearly has an extra 100 reach. (why this pike was added I don't know the first one was fine) and archers got a buff in damage and accuracy. So it seems to me the Devs have gone against cav altogether which is totaly unfair since now we don't stand a chance against the other troop types. 
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Gorath on May 02, 2011, 12:50:01 am
they way I see it is that its not just our stats that have been attacked but inf and archers got a buff against us E.G the long pike is faster by 3 speed (it don't seem much but it is) and nearly has an extra 100 reach. (why this pike was added I don't know the first one was fine) and archers got a buff in damage and accuracy. So it seems to me the Devs have gone against cav altogether which is totaly unfair since now we don't stand a chance against the other troop types.

That's funny, there's 9 cav in the server here currently getting tons of kills
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Zergmar on May 02, 2011, 12:52:29 am
Heirloomed Heavy Lance was always crap
damage wise it's the same right now (30 on triple h)
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Rumblood on May 02, 2011, 02:36:19 am
That's funny, there's 9 cav in the server here currently getting tons of kills

Not to mention that the top 2 spots on both teams are cavalry with over 20 kills, while the next up is melee with 10...
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: polkafranzi on May 02, 2011, 03:01:45 am
Not to mention that the top 2 spots on both teams are cavalry with over 20 kills, while the next up is melee with 10...

If the cav nerf stayed then those cavs would be in bottom of each team - how's that fair in contrast?

Well done for hot-fixing cav...now give me back my heavy lance -_-
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Gorath on May 02, 2011, 03:03:24 am
Cav are UP unless they're in the top spots on each team, now give me back my heavy lance so I don't have to adapt

No
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Tzar on May 02, 2011, 03:06:15 am
No

+1

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: polkafranzi on May 02, 2011, 03:12:41 am
No

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJyzjSYOWns

even better - some comedy...

cheer up :wink:
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Gorath on May 02, 2011, 03:18:17 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DwT_2QQU64

Sorry, I'm of legal age and don't understand downspeak.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Rumblood on May 02, 2011, 04:08:04 am
If the cav nerf stayed then those cavs would be in bottom of each team - how's that fair in contrast?

Well done for hot-fixing cav...now give me back my heavy lance -_-

Hello? That is RIGHT NOW, with this so called Nerf. Arabian still outruns arrows  :lol:
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Tears of Destiny on May 02, 2011, 04:33:20 am
Hello? That is RIGHT NOW, with this so called Nerf. Arabian still outruns arrows  :lol:

Not an heirloomed warbow!  :lol: :lol: :lol: It can now catch up with even Champian Coursers...
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Magikarp on May 02, 2011, 11:52:10 am
Outrun arrows, lol, do you want us to stand still so you can shoot us?
Learn to guide your arrows ahead of the horseman.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on May 02, 2011, 12:02:44 pm
Not to mention that the top 2 spots on both teams are cavalry with over 20 kills, while the next up is melee with 10...

depends on maps and the number of unaware players, how often you see cav topping port assault, nord town, village etc while every other class is doing fine on all maps, cav can do it only on some, and the number of those maps is low... now you dont see cav players bitching about the fact they have to dismount and play the infantry game no, you only see those crybabies that when some map with a bit of flat terrain comes starts to whine about how its the cav paradise when in fact battle maps should all be open field-like and if you want building you got server siege, and guess what you wont see any cav over there
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Native_ATS on May 02, 2011, 01:01:31 pm
THe speed isnt the real problem here, it's the damage, the scaling is horrible atm, my double loomed heavy lance does 28 pierce now, on masterwork it does 30. Seriously?

Let's see how we got nerfed:
- Much lower damage
- Speed nerfed by a huge amount
- Useless on foot to use
- Shields require more shield skill, making us fall back to worse ones
- No more polearm sidearms with shield due to slot problem
- No more switching to sidearm without dropping our main weapon
- Long pike added a bigger counter
- Heirloom scaling very poor

And what did we get in return:
+ We kept the stats and scaling of the Sarranid (Arabian) Horse, the ultimate killing machine.

Woohoo! The devs nerfed the wrong item and still can't see the OPness of heirloomed Sarranid(Arabian) horses!
lol fail
cav players get speed damg+
so a nock down in damg is nothing, lances need to be nerffed, to 1 shot people while you pony jogs is BS, at lest now u cant just 1 shot every thing,
it is not useless on foot... you are, if u cant kill with a 190 reach weapon you fail hard...
you dont have to fall back to a shitty sheild... just spend 1 more point and boom you got your good sheild back...
so you cant take you sheild, super long lance and some pol-arm into battle... maybe try being just cav witha lances... or try fighting with your pol-arm off pony back lol
pike people drop there weapons when they switch, Throwers drop there lances when they use or pick up any other weapon but unlike your class throwers cant pick them up again.... so cry somewhere ells
Crying about a 280 pike that takes up 1/2 of there slots... also you can see that dam thing form space
All class got hit, cav didnt get hit hard at all, bowmen have less ammo now,Throwing have way less ammo and deal less damg. Xbows do more damg now(they were buffed why?)
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Ujin on May 02, 2011, 01:10:05 pm
depends on maps and the number of unaware players, how often you see cav topping port assault, nord town, village etc while every other class is doing fine on all maps, cav can do it only on some, and the number of those maps is low... now you dont see cav players bitching about the fact they have to dismount and play the infantry game no, you only see those crybabies that when some map with a bit of flat terrain comes starts to whine about how its the cav paradise when in fact battle maps should all be open field-like and if you want building you got server siege, and guess what you wont see any cav over there
This should be put on every cav whiner's homepage or as the welcoming message when they log on.

On top of that i'll add that cav DID get hit in the patch and what people always seem to forget, cav has to pay at least double the upkeep than an average infantry player. Stop the bitching already.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on May 02, 2011, 06:10:48 pm
lol fail
cav players get speed damg+
so a nock down in damg is nothing, lances need to be nerffed, to 1 shot people while you pony jogs is BS, at lest now u cant just 1 shot every thing,
it is not useless on foot... you are, if u cant kill with a 190 reach weapon you fail hard...
you dont have to fall back to a shitty sheild... just spend 1 more point and boom you got your good sheild back...
so you cant take you sheild, super long lance and some pol-arm into battle... maybe try being just cav witha lances... or try fighting with your pol-arm off pony back lol
pike people drop there weapons when they switch, Throwers drop there lances when they use or pick up any other weapon but unlike your class throwers cant pick them up again.... so cry somewhere ells
Crying about a 280 pike that takes up 1/2 of there slots... also you can see that dam thing form space
All class got hit, cav didnt get hit hard at all, bowmen have less ammo now,Throwing have way less ammo and deal less damg. Xbows do more damg now(they were buffed why?)

From this I can tell your one of the people who don't look around for cav then cry's about how we're OP when actually most cav have 4-6 PS and with speed (from the horse) it makes sense that we one hit you due to momentum. Also you say archers and throwers got nerfed the hardest because they can't have as much ammo this is a good thing because before the patch I used to see atleast 7 archers with no melee weapon and with 90 arrows which is  pure BS, throwers I admit can be useful and mid range but again if you have to much ammo then its just stupid.   
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: naduril on May 03, 2011, 03:13:38 pm
On top of that i'll add that cav DID get hit in the patch and what people always seem to forget, cav has to pay at least double the upkeep than an average infantry player. Stop the bitching already.
+1 to Ujin.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Vibe on May 03, 2011, 03:19:41 pm
Yeah, the cav nerf is indeed unnecessary. We pay high amounts of upkeep already, we're no challenge to a player who pays attention and our non-plate horses get 1/2 shotted by thrown/xbows.
Also, we can't do crap on village maps where we get roofcamped to death. I usually just go on foot on those maps because the upkeep is just not worth it.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Magikarp on May 04, 2011, 01:08:32 am
I'm fed up with the anti-cav whiners who swarm this thread because they just got backstabbed in the head while they were running around like an idiot. They all say cav is easymode because they see one cav player topping the boards. Yet when you duel them on horseback they get owned like hell. Cav did get hit, we always got hit, yet people seem to forget. Why? Because they don't play the class.

So please, all the lobyists go to your own thread, this thread is about the (unnecessary) cav nerf. In which the only reply of the devs was:
'Everyone was using the Heavy Lance, omfg nerf!'

Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Brutal on May 04, 2011, 12:53:23 pm
Considering that pike and bamboo are not sheateable, some kind of nerf was necessary to compensate, no ?
Almost  all 1H and polearm user can only block cav attack now.
Yes cav has high upkeep but it is the only class that get an unblockable one hit melee attack, and no it's not easy to avoid couching when you've 4 athletics or less.
Why is couching unblockable anyway ?     
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: polkafranzi on May 04, 2011, 07:26:21 pm
Considering that pike and bamboo are not sheateable, some kind of nerf was necessary to compensate, no ?
Almost  all 1H and polearm user can only block cav attack now.
Yes cav has high upkeep but it is the only class that get an unblockable one hit melee attack, and no it's not easy to avoid couching when you've 4 athletics or less.
Why is couching unblockable anyway ?   

either use some common sense, or at least YT or research how devastating a couched lance was before coming on here with these derp comments.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on May 04, 2011, 11:01:17 pm
If it makes you feel better, it isn't easy to actually hit someone with a couched lance. Like, I rarely use it, except for the occasional epic, head on, horse on horse charges.

Somebody said that the lance was an effective weapon on foot. That person is false. The reach really doesn't matter when the actual attack is epicly slow. You can only attack from two directions, btw. Oh, and if they're too close, the extra length screws you over and your strike bounces.

A person with a lance, if attacked by somebody with a real infantry weapon, will probably die in a one on one fight. Don't talk about fighting with a team, because I almost never manage to get back to my team after being dehorsed.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Magikarp on May 04, 2011, 11:21:02 pm
If it makes you feel better, it isn't easy to actually hit someone with a couched lance. Like, I rarely use it, except for the occasional epic, head on, horse on horse charges.

Somebody said that the lance was an effective weapon on foot. That person is false. The reach really doesn't matter when the actual attack is epicly slow. You can only attack from two directions, btw. Oh, and if they're too close, the extra length screws you over and your strike bounces.

A person with a lance, if attacked by somebody with a real infantry weapon, will probably die in a one on one fight. Don't talk about fighting with a team, because I almost never manage to get back to my team after being dehorsed.
It requires training, yes, and is only to be used against idiots. I know exactly on who I can use it, just by looking at their play style. Trying to couch an adept or higher skilled player always results in death or in failure if im lucky. Skilled players are only to be stabbed the normal way.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Keshian on May 04, 2011, 11:27:14 pm
You don't think cavalry can be OP because you see it from the perspective of a solo cavalryman.  In reality you will often have 5 or 6 riding together in a pack (far worse when strategus comes out where almost all battle maps are wide open for cav) and it doesn't matter how aware you are of cav, even if you spend your entire time walking around with a pike rather than actually meleeing and fighting, cav teams will just stay just out of range on their arabian horse or courser and then as you turn to face one the other will move in with a lance almost as long as your pike to stab you in the back or trample you whereupon the others converge like jackals, if the first one didnt get enough speed to one-shot couch you.  Thats true even when you have 4-5 infantrymen trying to work together.  Pretty much you have no choice as infantry but to give up any melee weapon for the sake of pikes adn travel in fearful packs to be decimated by opposing infantry (who thankfully have more and better cavalry on their team so bring real melee weapons and rape you.  Its not that different from pre-Jan. strategus battles where herds of archers would work together, people would say just get a shield (like saying just get a pike) but it wouldnt matter because you could get 5 or 6 together and they could angle fire behind your shields.

The big issue is not balance 1v1 but in large fights with large groups of each class, and in that case with the recent serious nerfs to every other class, yes cavalry has become OP and an imbalancing factor.  i think the complete removal of lollancing was too much but it was a step in the right idea that soemhow cavalry needs to be rebalanced to adjust to other classese being hevily nerfed.  persoanlly I think how much riding affects speed (now that its 3 agility per riding) and manueverability is the ideal place to start and should be cut in half.  The reasoning is that when you do see 34-2 scores its because some guy has a champion courser/arabian horse with 8 riding skill just riding 100 yards or more in less than 4 seconds so even if you just checked behind you they will still hit you by complete surprise.  Thats not real skill there, but game mechanics.  Whereas skillfull lancing would not be affected by such changes as you actually have to rely on accuracy rather than unrealistic speed.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Magikarp on May 04, 2011, 11:33:15 pm
You don't think cavalry can be OP because you see it from the perspective of a solo cavalryman.  In reality you will often have 5 or 6 riding together in a pack (far worse when strategus comes out where almost all battle maps are wide open for cav) and it doesn't matter how aware you are of cav, even if you spend your entire time walking around with a pike rather than actually meleeing and fighting, cav teams will just stay just out of range on their arabian horse or courser and then as you turn to face one the other will move in with a lance almost as long as your pike to stab you in the back or trample you whereupon the others converge like jackals, if the first one didnt get enough speed to one-shot couch you.  Thats true even when you have 4-5 infantrymen trying to work together.  Pretty much you have no choice as infantry but to give up any melee weapon for the sake of pikes adn travel in fearful packs to be decimated by opposing infantry (who thankfully have more and better cavalry on their team so bring real melee weapons and rape you.  Its not that different from pre-Jan. strategus battles where herds of archers would work together, people would say just get a shield (like saying just get a pike) but it wouldnt matter because you could get 5 or 6 together and they could angle fire behind your shields.

The big issue is not balance 1v1 but in large fights with large groups of each class, and in that case with the recent serious nerfs to every other class, yes cavalry has become OP and an imbalancing factor.  i think the complete removal of lollancing was too much but it was a step in the right idea that soemhow cavalry needs to be rebalanced to adjust to other classese being hevily nerfed.  persoanlly I think how much riding affects speed (now that its 3 agility per riding) and manueverability is the ideal place to start and should be cut in half.  The reasoning is that when you do see 34-2 scores its because some guy has a champion courser/arabian horse with 8 riding skill just riding 100 yards or more in less than 4 seconds so even if you just checked behind you they will still hit you by complete surprise.  Thats not real skill there, but game mechanics.  Whereas skillfull lancing would not be affected by such changes as you actually have to rely on accuracy rather than unrealistic speed.
Cavalry is a support class, they should be good when aiding teammates. Your whole point that we didnt get nerfed is just ridiculous. A pack of infantrymen can counter horsemen easily.

Similarly, a pack of mixed troops, with infantrymen, archers and horsemen is always how teams are composed. Cavalrymen can counter other cavalrymen, or can get shot by archers or can get piked.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: naduril on May 05, 2011, 12:17:55 am
Keshian, it always joy for me to read your posts:) Really, it delivers usually:D
As you say 34-2, it of course can be overloomed cav with mw heavy lance and champion horse. But it can be achieved with not a single loomed item. And it happens not due to OP, but due to skill. I know about 4 or 5 really good horsemen. Others die quickly, escpecially with good teamwork of infantry and archers.
And the best anti-cav is HA. So I would love to hear your ideas about nerfing cav and HA as well.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Rumblood on May 05, 2011, 01:32:00 am
You don't think cavalry can be OP because you see it from the perspective of a solo cavalryman.  In reality you will often have 5 or 6 riding together in a pack (far worse when strategus comes out where almost all battle maps are wide open for cav) and it doesn't matter how aware you are of cav, even if you spend your entire time walking around with a pike rather than actually meleeing and fighting, cav teams will just stay just out of range on their arabian horse or courser and then as you turn to face one the other will move in with a lance almost as long as your pike to stab you in the back or trample you whereupon the others converge like jackals, if the first one didnt get enough speed to one-shot couch you.  Thats true even when you have 4-5 infantrymen trying to work together.  Pretty much you have no choice as infantry but to give up any melee weapon for the sake of pikes adn travel in fearful packs to be decimated by opposing infantry (who thankfully have more and better cavalry on their team so bring real melee weapons and rape you.  Its not that different from pre-Jan. strategus battles where herds of archers would work together, people would say just get a shield (like saying just get a pike) but it wouldnt matter because you could get 5 or 6 together and they could angle fire behind your shields.

The big issue is not balance 1v1 but in large fights with large groups of each class, and in that case with the recent serious nerfs to every other class, yes cavalry has become OP and an imbalancing factor.  i think the complete removal of lollancing was too much but it was a step in the right idea that soemhow cavalry needs to be rebalanced to adjust to other classese being hevily nerfed.  persoanlly I think how much riding affects speed (now that its 3 agility per riding) and manueverability is the ideal place to start and should be cut in half.  The reasoning is that when you do see 34-2 scores its because some guy has a champion courser/arabian horse with 8 riding skill just riding 100 yards or more in less than 4 seconds so even if you just checked behind you they will still hit you by complete surprise.  Thats not real skill there, but game mechanics.  Whereas skillfull lancing would not be affected by such changes as you actually have to rely on accuracy rather than unrealistic speed.

Truth spoken.

Magikarp, what are you smoking? Cav is a "support" class? The only support class in game is a pure xbow build.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Keshian on May 05, 2011, 05:57:44 am
Keshian, it always joy for me to read your posts:) Really, it delivers usually:D
As you say 34-2, it of course can be overloomed cav with mw heavy lance and champion horse. But it can be achieved with not a single loomed item. And it happens not due to OP, but due to skill. I know about 4 or 5 really good horsemen. Others die quickly, escpecially with good teamwork of infantry and archers.
And the best anti-cav is HA. So I would love to hear your ideas about nerfing cav and HA as well.

Yes, I'm not denying that you get 34-2 by being bettter than average (and I know youa re a good EU cav Naduril, I've seen you play, but you've been playing long enough now don't you have a mw lance and a champion horse???), but as the only time I ever see scores that high (maybe its different in the EU) is people I know for a fact (checked horses/equipment after they die) are good cav players that also have champion coursers or arabian horses, with a masterwork lance or heavy lance beside their horse.  And watching them ride, rough estimate somewhere between 7-9 riding skill.  They can turn corners at full gallop with that equipment and riding skill and ride far faster than a horse would in real life where you might have time to react, turn and stab.  This is easier to do quite well then when people had lower riding and normal horses, namely it took less skill for these good players to pull it off now then before. 

Honestly since riding is every 3 agility instead of 6 agility (pre-January) just halve the riding bonus and problem would be solved.  Mostly this is needed not because they were a problem pre-patch with throwers 1 to 2-shotting those fast cav, but because the number of throwers is rapidly decreasing since the patch (far less ammo too), the xbows/bows have far less ammo and as an archer you often need to hit a horse 4 times to kill it when all they have to do when they see is an archer is couch a lance as all the 1 slot items have almost no range.  Far fewer people with pikes because any time they engage in melee they drop them automatically.  The new patch changes have made cavalrya  new OP class and soemthing needs to be balanced, they went too far and then gave back the lollance so in the end the main nerf never ahppened and so cav is quickly beginning to dominate most battle servers and once strategus is up these issues will be multiplied threefold by broad open plains maps with spawn killing at high rates possible.  Horse archers would also be nerfed by this change as they would be slower on their horses and less maneuverable making them more vulnerable to archers (HA generally more lightly armored than traditional cav so easy to kill by bows/xbows). 

Basically the cavalry have lost a lot of predators and gained a lot of prey with the new patch and their population will explode and they will become too dominant on the battlefield unless balance is restored.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: PhantomZero on May 05, 2011, 06:07:38 am
No. Slowing down the already slow horses to almost a crawl? The horses already got a speed nerf when riding provided the bonus. Horses can round corners and do complete turns a lot easier than you might think, have you ever seen an equestrian competition?

People still carry around pike and merely drop it when engaged in battle, then pick it back up when the melee threat has passed.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: La Makina on May 05, 2011, 04:34:36 pm
I've posted a suggestion. Please have a look if you have not already.
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,4901.0.html

The idea is to limit insta-kill polearm attack (LMB) due to the speed bonus. As a consequence, cavalry would rely more on couching the lance and organised attacks instead of solo raids (teamwork and structured warfare should be encouraged imo). Another effect is that cav would need to invest into Power Strike (and Strength) to increase lance damage on polearm attack, thus reducing the Agility+Riding optimization.

Note to cav players: before voting NO and smoking my awesome bar: it is coherent and it does not weaken the cavalry which would remain the most dangerous. Certainly, some riders would not reach a 34-2 K:D ratio. Also, it could be coupled with other ideas (buffs, increase speed, upkeep reduction...). Just suggest them.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Camaris on May 05, 2011, 05:52:39 pm
I used to wear a pike every round in battle now i cant even take a spear without losing my shield.
Most 2-Hand players have lost their abiltiy to wear pikes.
Most 1-Hand players dont wear pike anymore.
Most Archers dont wear pike etc. etc.

Thats a massive change in comparsion to prepatch.
Its a massive indirect buff for Horseman.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Magikarp on May 05, 2011, 08:44:33 pm
Seriously, I challenge every single idiot that says that cav is easymode to a duel, right now, on the duel server, both mounted. Let's see how easy it is.

And yes, I've seen players like Tommy and Oberyn top the boards with their loomed Sarranid Horses and Lances. But where does the problem lie? Not in the class as a whole, but in the way that the Sarranid Horse gives you manouverability. Plus the fact that they mostly prey on the weak to get their kills. If you ask them, they will reply to you that riding is a semi-useless skill compared to powerstrike, an opinion which I share. A good cavalryman won't go for anything lower than 6 ps, and that's a fact, 7 riding gives you nothing, yet 7 powerstrike gives you that little edge that you might need to finish off your opponent.

People seem to be forgetting that cav received the same heirloom nerfs, same slot nerfs, same drop ons sheath nerfs, a heavy lance nerf, shield skill increase, etc.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Tzar on May 05, 2011, 11:29:25 pm
Kesh 6 agi for 1 riding was too much..

I prefer the current amount since it ruins the whole gameplay watching a  a guy in peasent clothing riding and armored horse....

People who wanted to become cav basicly was only able to function on the horse as soon as they where dismounted they where total useless..
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Rumblood on May 06, 2011, 01:25:05 am
Seriously, I challenge every single idiot that says that cav is easymode to a duel, right now, on the duel server, both mounted. Let's see how easy it is.

If you are wanting to challenge them to prove their point, then duel, but you dont get a mount. You get an archer, a thrower, a 1h/shield,or 2 hander or even any of the shorter polearms. Then lets see how well you do  :idea:
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Seawied on May 06, 2011, 06:09:22 am
If you are wanting to challenge them to prove their point, then duel, but you dont get a mount. You get an archer, a thrower, a 1h/shield,or 2 hander or even any of the shorter polearms. Then lets see how well you do  :idea:

+1 for logic.


On a side note, my eyes are going to be sore tomorrow from all this exercise they are getting from being rolled after Magikarp's "U R NOOB! I DUELZ YOU!" posts.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: PhantomZero on May 06, 2011, 10:28:10 am
Well I mean the primary of purpose of cavalry is to run down troops that are spread out and disorganized. Of course people by themselves in an open field are going to get run over.
Cavalry get shut down as soon as they decide to group up.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Vibe on May 06, 2011, 10:54:41 am
Cavalry get shut down as soon as they decide to group up.

This. Stick with your group and no cav lance will ever be a threat to you.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Beauchamp on May 06, 2011, 11:19:01 am
I used to wear a pike every round in battle now i cant even take a spear without losing my shield.
Most 2-Hand players have lost their abiltiy to wear pikes.
Most 1-Hand players dont wear pike anymore.
Most Archers dont wear pike etc. etc.

Thats a massive change in comparsion to prepatch.
Its a massive indirect buff for Horseman.

aye but tell it to lobbyists...
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: v/onMega on May 06, 2011, 01:00:13 pm
aye but tell it to lobbyists...

Dont mention 2hers here, with the stab animation changed i only fear 5% of the cavplayers.

Other classes got a problem now, allthough i say it takes more of a change in your playingstyle?

Just suggesting, dont want to sound Einstein like...

Nubert is fine with the changes btw, he is a dedicated polearmer and uses the unsheatable stuff really often (and does really good with it)
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on May 06, 2011, 02:37:05 pm
You don't think cavalry can be OP because you see it from the perspective of a solo cavalryman.  In reality you will often have 5 or 6 riding together in a pack (far worse when strategus comes out where almost all battle maps are wide open for cav) and it doesn't matter how aware you are of cav, even if you spend your entire time walking around with a pike rather than actually meleeing and fighting, cav teams will just stay just out of range on their arabian horse or courser and then as you turn to face one the other will move in with a lance almost as long as your pike to stab you in the back or trample you whereupon the others converge like jackals, if the first one didnt get enough speed to one-shot couch you.  Thats true even when you have 4-5 infantrymen trying to work together.  Pretty much you have no choice as infantry but to give up any melee weapon for the sake of pikes adn travel in fearful packs to be decimated by opposing infantry (who thankfully have more and better cavalry on their team so bring real melee weapons and rape you.  Its not that different from pre-Jan. strategus battles where herds of archers would work together, people would say just get a shield (like saying just get a pike) but it wouldnt matter because you could get 5 or 6 together and they could angle fire behind your shields.

The big issue is not balance 1v1 but in large fights with large groups of each class, and in that case with the recent serious nerfs to every other class, yes cavalry has become OP and an imbalancing factor.  i think the complete removal of lollancing was too much but it was a step in the right idea that soemhow cavalry needs to be rebalanced to adjust to other classese being hevily nerfed.  persoanlly I think how much riding affects speed (now that its 3 agility per riding) and manueverability is the ideal place to start and should be cut in half.  The reasoning is that when you do see 34-2 scores its because some guy has a champion courser/arabian horse with 8 riding skill just riding 100 yards or more in less than 4 seconds so even if you just checked behind you they will still hit you by complete surprise.  Thats not real skill there, but game mechanics.  Whereas skillfull lancing would not be affected by such changes as you actually have to rely on accuracy rather than unrealistic speed.

You pointed out his fault logic about solo cav perspective, yet you put a situation where there is a lone pikemen vs 5-6 cav, then a fearful infantry pack dealing with cav and infantry.

And now as nobody has heirlooms, you still see the same scores of cav as we did with our heirloomed horses. Hell i even made a record on a unloomed horse without loomed weapon but than again i killed bunch of guys that refused to do any action that could help them to survive the encounter.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Magikarp on May 06, 2011, 03:16:29 pm
If you are wanting to challenge them to prove their point, then duel, but you dont get a mount. You get an archer, a thrower, a 1h/shield,or 2 hander or even any of the shorter polearms. Then lets see how well you do  :idea:
Your logic fails. I challenge them on horseback because they say being cavalry is so easy. What's the point dueling dismounted when it's about cavalry being 'easy'?
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: PhantomZero on May 06, 2011, 08:41:54 pm
Hes saying that if fighting a cav is so easy, you as a horseman, off his horse, should be able to defeat another horseman on his horse.
Title: Re: Cavalry Nerf.... WHY
Post by: Rumblood on May 07, 2011, 07:12:08 am
Hes saying that if fighting a cav is so easy, you as a horseman, off his horse, should be able to defeat another horseman on his horse.

Precisely. If it is so easy to take down cavalry as infantry or ranged, then get off your horse and do it. If cavalry isn't "easy mode", you should easily be able to stop them.