cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Tigero on January 02, 2013, 01:03:04 pm

Title: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Tigero on January 02, 2013, 01:03:04 pm
Currently Arab cavarly sword is faster, longer and does almost same damage as longsword horseback. Add that to 1hcav's ability to hide behind shield and come head on vs. 2hcav and then spam their horse/you to death, it's not really fair.

Maybe a reduce to horse speed/manouver when using a shield is reasonable and realistic, or then reward 2hcav for taking the risk of getting easily killed if you're noticed some way.

Add that to shield forcefield affecting horse's front in many cases that makes inf trying to kill it impossible...
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Cepeshi on January 02, 2013, 01:07:37 pm
Currently Arab cavarly sword is faster, longer and does almost same damage as longsword horseback. Add that to 1hcav's ability to hide behind shield and come head on vs. 2hcav and then spam their horse/you to death, it's not really fair.

Maybe a reduce to horse speed/manouver when using a shield is reasonable and realistic, or then reward 2hcav for taking the risk of getting easily killed if you're noticed some way.

if you want to go 2h cav, you need to get used to the consequences
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on January 02, 2013, 01:09:25 pm
Longsword:
weapon length: 106
weight: 1.8
difficulty: 10
speed rating: 99
weapon length: 106
thrust damage: 23 pierce
swing damage: 37 cut
slots: 2
Secondary Mode

Arab Cav Sword:
weapon length: 105
weight: 1
difficulty: 13
speed rating: 95
weapon length: 105
thrust damage: 19 pierce
swing damage: 33 cut
slots: 1

Somehow all your claims are somewhat incorrect, it's one shorter, 4 slower, and it got 4 swing damage less.
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Tigero on January 02, 2013, 01:34:36 pm
if you want to go 2h cav, you need to get used to the consequences

if you want to go 1h cav, you need to get used to the consequences
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Vibe on January 02, 2013, 01:35:58 pm
While we're at that, let's talk about LHB cav, the real underdog here
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Tigero on January 02, 2013, 01:39:43 pm
Longsword:
weapon length: 106
weight: 1.8
difficulty: 10
speed rating: 99
weapon length: 106
thrust damage: 23 pierce
swing damage: 37 cut
slots: 2
Secondary Mode

Arab Cav Sword:
weapon length: 105
weight: 1
difficulty: 13
speed rating: 95
weapon length: 105
thrust damage: 19 pierce
swing damage: 33 cut
slots: 1

Somehow all your claims are somewhat incorrect, it's one shorter, 4 slower, and it got 4 swing damage less.

Our little cheeky noob should go read this http://forum.meleegaming.com/beginner's-help-and-guides/game-mechanic-megathread!/ (http://forum.meleegaming.com/beginner's-help-and-guides/game-mechanic-megathread!/)

1h R to L+19

2h R to L+13

That makes 1h longer in that case and many more.

R to L is definently most used swordcav swing... oh and about the speed, 2h gets way more speedpenalty on horse than 1h (does it even get any?) So there are you're hard facts, now go spam your 1h proud of this information :p


Back to business, it's not really even the 1h sword that makes the class op compared to 2h, but the shield. Say a 1hcav is reared and you try to swing him from behind. No can do, if he can turn his horse like 10 degrees to you, turn his char and raise shield you can't hit him with a swing.

Also just the pure risks of using 2hcav must be rewarded some way!
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Tigero on January 02, 2013, 01:42:12 pm
While we're at that, let's talk about LHB cav, the real underdog here

True, it's same as using the glitch where you can use horseback denied swing types with a cav-able weapon...
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on January 02, 2013, 01:44:12 pm
Our little cheeky noob should go read this http://forum.meleegaming.com/beginner's-help-and-guides/game-mechanic-megathread!/ (http://forum.meleegaming.com/beginner's-help-and-guides/game-mechanic-megathread!/)

1h R to L+19

2h R to L+13

That makes 1h longer in that case and many more.

R to L is definently most used swordcav swing... oh and about the speed, 2h gets way more speedpenalty on horse than 1h (does it even get any?) So there are you're hard facts, now go spam your 1h proud of this information :p
Are you an idiot? 2h cav also use the 1h animations... also that information appears to be inaccurate, the 1h right swing is longer than that.
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Tigero on January 02, 2013, 01:49:42 pm
Are you an idiot? 2h cav also use the 1h animations... also that information appears to be inaccurate, the 1h right swing is longer than that.
But 2hcav uses 2h physics
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on January 02, 2013, 01:52:57 pm
But 2hcav uses 2h physics
it uses the 1h animation and then the 1h animation is what's used to determine the reach, same way a flameberge doesn't have ghostreach when it stabs because the game thinks it's a 2h stab.
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Tigero on January 02, 2013, 01:53:25 pm
it uses the 1h animation and then the 1h animation is what's used to determine the reach, same way a flameberge doesn't have ghostreach when it stabs because the game thinks it's a 2h stab.
When did animations ever determine anything in M&B, just look at how pike works lol
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on January 02, 2013, 01:54:52 pm
When did animations ever determine anything in M&B, just look at how pike works lol
This is to much bullshit for me, I'm out, feel free to go about pretending shit.
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Vibe on January 02, 2013, 01:55:15 pm
2h does use 1h animation, but it's slowed down
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Torben on January 02, 2013, 02:01:23 pm
2h does use 1h animation, but it's slowed down

and the low speed gives it a higher speedbonus.  so the longsword on horse is more powerful and longer. 

btw,  go 2h morning star on a cataphrac,  its an insanely powerful set up if you acquire the skill.
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Vibe on January 02, 2013, 02:02:27 pm
and the low speed gives it a higher speedbonus.

wad, how does low weapon speed (or any weapon speed) give higher speedbonus?
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on January 02, 2013, 02:02:55 pm
wad, how does low weapon speed (or any weapon speed) give higher speedbonus?
Same way it does with a pike.
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Tigero on January 02, 2013, 02:03:17 pm
This is to much bullshit for me, I'm out, feel free to go about pretending shit.

Don't rage, it's not even the main point if the 2h is 2 units longer or something, it must be significantly longer because 1h has other advantages... I think it would be realistic and balanced to nerf horse manouver if you're both hands are occupied by shield and sword, or by a bow for that matter!
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Vibe on January 02, 2013, 02:03:33 pm
Same way it does with a pike.

wut, seriously
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Tigero on January 02, 2013, 02:06:03 pm
Wut, the world will never be the same, give me long maul on horseback with +3 courser!

Ps. to be true, i really don't know what damn animation the 2h uses hitboxwise on horseback, it's really bugged how the sword really hit's stuff.
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Torben on January 02, 2013, 02:10:03 pm
wut, seriously

decreasing weapon speed increases speedbonus,  thats why the heavy lance isnt completely useless as its lowered speed gives a good damage at high speed.  thats why agi builds make crazy damage with pikes (high running speed+low weapon speed)  and thats why 2h on horse does insane damage if you fly by on a courser.


to OP:  if you wanna be a 2h styler on horseback you just gotta eat the disadvantages.  also,  see my last post:  morning star on cata (or ever any low horse) is crazy good,  you just need to adapt style.  a stopped lancer in range of a 1h cav is just as fucked.
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on January 02, 2013, 02:10:06 pm
Don't rage, it's not even the main point if the 2h is 2 units longer or something, it must be significantly longer because 1h has other advantages... I think it would be realistic and balanced to nerf horse manouver if you're both hands are occupied by shield and sword, or by a bow for that matter!
Have you ever been on a horse before? You ride with your legs, arms are really just for holding on in case your horse flips out, so the only realistic thing to do would be that if both your hands are occupied you fall off at rearing if you're using both hands.
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Vibe on January 02, 2013, 02:11:49 pm
decreasing weapon speed increases speedbonus,  thats why the heavy lance isnt completely useless as its lowered speed gives a good damage at high speed.  thats why agi builds make crazy damage with pikes (high running speed+low weapon speed)  and thats why 2h on horse does insane damage if you fly by on a courser.

Where did you get that info? Last I heard speed bonus was relative between your movement and enemy movement speed and direction, not the weapon speed. Doesn't make any sense the way you say it is.
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Torben on January 02, 2013, 02:15:46 pm
stop with realism haha

not only where there specially trained cataphracts in ancient armies with huuuuge lances they held twohanded,  but the riders also fuckin lived on their horses.  there just aint a way an applicable nerf to riding would be realistic in combat situations .) 

shields werent held by hand only,  so they could hold onto the horse with that hand,  rodeo dudes do all kindsa crazy shit on their horses no handed, bla bla
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Tigero on January 02, 2013, 02:16:52 pm
Have you ever been on a horse before? You ride with your legs, arms are really just for holding on in case your horse flips out, so the only realistic thing to do would be that if both your hands are occupied you fall off at rearing if you're using both hands.
I bet you have been swinging a sword ontop of it, too... Yes you can lock yourself to the horse by bringing your legs forward on locking yourself between the stirrups and saddle, but then the only thing you can really do it joust. If you're going to swing far and wide and control you're horse, you have to hang from it and you need one hand on the horse for that.
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Torben on January 02, 2013, 02:20:24 pm
Where did you get that info? Last I heard speed bonus was relative between your movement and enemy movement speed and direction, not the weapon speed. Doesn't make any sense the way you say it is.

this,  for example,  doesnt fit to HAs,  as speedbonus there is determined by target speed only,  not the archers speed.

my info comes from a dev  who said this a year ago or so, when the heavy lance got a huge speed nerf from 80 somthing to 68 or so.  it turned out that this made the lance very deadly because of said hard coded mechanic,  which was the reason for them to speed up the lance again in the following fix.

It seems to still apply considering whats going on.
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Tigero on January 02, 2013, 02:21:43 pm
Well that explains why Lars 1hits you with the my old friendgy horse turnstab
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Gurnisson on January 02, 2013, 02:26:42 pm
It's always been like that, Vibe. Slower weapons have a broad damage spectrum since they're effected a lot by the speed bonus. Awful damage if you don't get to abuse it, great damage if you can. Try for yourself with them slower weapons.
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: cmp on January 02, 2013, 02:27:49 pm
So much bullshit in this thread. :lol:

1) weapon speed has no effect whatsoever on speed bonus
2) 1h and 2h weapon use the same animation when mounted, there is no such thing as "2h physics"
3) 2h gets a damage malus when mounted, 1h doesn't
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Torben on January 02, 2013, 02:35:05 pm
So much bullshit in this thread. :lol:

1) weapon speed has no effect whatsoever on speed bonus
2) 1h and 2h weapon use the same animation when mounted, there is no such thing as "2h physics"
3) 2h gets a damage malus when mounted, 1h doesn't

woha my world just flipped out.  BUFF HEAVY LANCE!!! ^^
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Kafein on January 02, 2013, 02:44:05 pm
1) weapon speed has no effect whatsoever on speed bonus

Even indirectly ?


Anyway, a slower weapon tends to be an advantage on horse vs inf, creating a larger release window.

Also, shieldless blocks on horseback offer the same (if not worse) forcefield effect as a shield.
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: cmp on January 02, 2013, 02:48:06 pm
Even indirectly ?

Weapon speed has no effect on damage. Better?

Also, shieldless blocks on horseback offer the same (if not worse) forcefield effect as a shield.

No. It uses the exact same code as dismounted blocks.
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Tigero on January 02, 2013, 03:19:59 pm
Even indirectly ?


Anyway, a slower weapon tends to be an advantage on horse vs inf, creating a larger release window.

Also, shieldless blocks on horseback offer the same (if not worse) forcefield effect as a shield.
Not true, have you tried faulance and arab horse? jesus that combination rocks :D
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Kafein on January 02, 2013, 08:10:52 pm
Weapon speed has no effect on damage. Better?

(click to show/hide)

No. It uses the exact same code as dismounted blocks.

Somehow putting a horse behind the blocker makes it feel stupid.
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: HoboJoe on January 02, 2013, 08:32:30 pm
I've always been under the impression that slower weapons received more speed bonus (Wider spectrum, also more likely to get huge negative values as well). On the other hand, I don't have any numbers after original M&B, but I do recall having 600+% speed bonus with the great lance frequently. There was a clear trend with slower weapon and high speed bonuses. In Warband I've mostly played multiplayer but it has certainly felt like it. Can't say for sure without numbers.
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on January 02, 2013, 08:49:59 pm
Not true, have you tried faulance and arab horse? jesus that combination rocks :D

The arabian horse is just easy mode for cav anyway if you didn't know that then you clearly know NOTHING about cavalry and should not suggest how to "balance" it when you have no idea how to

Play the class
understand how it works
understand how different weapons effect your cavalry experience
understand what type of horse is used for different maps/situations (apart from the arabian that fairy is just OP for what is it)

From reading what you have posted you seem to not only fail to understand how cavalry works here but also how even infantry weapons work. Perhaps go back try and understand how things work and try playing a few gens of cav (Playing one gen of cav or any class doesn't count for anything.) Then perhaps come back with a new reformed suggestion. 
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Tigero on January 02, 2013, 08:52:57 pm
But please devs please consider the idea of making horse manouver less/preferrably slower especially with a bow, i have a fucking +3 courser and i'm unable to catch hunter using HA, rounceys i can barely catch and kill if the rider is not skilled.
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on January 02, 2013, 08:55:10 pm
But please devs please consider the idea of making horse manouver less/preferrably slower especially with a bow, i have a fucking +3 courser and i'm unable to catch hunter using HA, rounceys i can barely catch and kill if the rider is not skilled.

If you are on a +3 courser you SHOULDN'T out maneuver a Destrier because you gallop at a much faster speed meaning you go faster in a straight line but he turns faster on a horse. Seriously you really really really fail at understanding the basics of cav, for your own sake stop posting nonsense before you make even more of a fool of yourself.
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Tigero on January 02, 2013, 08:55:48 pm
The arabian horse is just easy mode for cav anyway if you didn't know that then you clearly know NOTHING about cavalry and should not suggest how to "balance" it when you have no idea how to

Play the class
understand how it works
understand how different weapons effect your cavalry experience
understand what type of horse is used for different maps/situations (apart from the arabian that fairy is just OP for what is it)

From reading what you have posted you seem to not only fail to understand how cavalry works here but also how even infantry weapons work. Perhaps go back try and understand how things work and try playing a few gens of cav (Playing one gen of cav or any class doesn't count for anything.) Then perhaps come back with a new reformed suggestion.

I can't possibly understand what are you ranting about!? Please less generalizingly and i might.
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Tigero on January 02, 2013, 08:57:56 pm
I take that you ride always full speed because your comments are so irrational, courser has 1 less manouver than destrier, aln i got +3 one and most people normal destrier so... and obviously i slow down if trying to catch someone in tight turn please stop making a fool of yourself...
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on January 02, 2013, 08:59:23 pm
I take that you ride always full speed because your comments are so irrational, courser has 1 less manouver than destrier, aln i got +3 one and most people normal destrier so... and obviously i slow down if trying to catch someone in tight turn please stop making a fool of yourself...

Seriously.....respec to something other the cav... you will never be a good horseman when you think when going full speed you should turn just as fast as everyother horse. There is no hope for you.  :?
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Tigero on January 02, 2013, 09:02:32 pm
And now you stop even reading my messages... oh well should have guessed you are a troll...
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on January 02, 2013, 09:05:59 pm
Do you even know understand what a troll is?
Title: Re: Fix 1h-2hcav balance
Post by: Tigero on January 02, 2013, 09:08:02 pm
1. Reward 2hcav for taking the risk of being open to HA and other nasty stuff.
 or at very least nerf shield forcefield on horseback.
2. Force players to carry atleast one  dedicated melee weapon.
3. Reduce HA shooting angle closer to HX's.
4. Remove HA (optional).