cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Leshma on December 06, 2012, 12:19:46 am

Title: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Leshma on December 06, 2012, 12:19:46 am
For how long we'll have to live with free wpf bullshit tanks spamming shit hoping for glances and lucky chambers errday? Also, that stupid shovel of a weapon, do something about it, will ya?

That would be all for now.
Title: Re: Strenght builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Molly on December 06, 2012, 12:22:38 am
Didn't you start the thread "Leave the devs alone"?

And now this? Make up your mind! D:
Title: Re: Strenght builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Leshma on December 06, 2012, 12:49:27 am
I'm not demanding anything, just stating the obvious issue.
Title: Re: Strenght builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Darkkarma on December 06, 2012, 12:51:43 am
i thought this was an na problm
Title: Re: Strenght builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 06, 2012, 12:53:50 am
Quote from: Teeth on December 06, 2012, 12:43:35 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorder
Title: Re: Strenght builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Leshma on December 06, 2012, 01:16:02 am
Quote from: Darkkarma on December 06, 2012, 12:51:43 am
i thought this was an na problm

Someone said that it's a lot worse on EU side, and I think it was Smoothrich.
Title: Re: Strenght builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Laufknoten on December 06, 2012, 01:51:07 am
It seems like 90% of all inf players use strenght oriented builds and wear 40+ armor. A heavy kuyak (which is basically a medium armor) with looms and heavy gloves can generate an armor rating of 60+. Now add those 6 or 7 points in IF most players have and there you go.
It's the same like the lvl 35 build in peasant cloths with a +3 battle fork... You think you fight a guy in medium armor, but it's actually a tin can just without all the cons of plate armor.
Anyway, if you play with a melee agi build you are either a masochist and you like to gimp yourself or you're kingrimm. :D
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Angellore on December 06, 2012, 10:45:35 am
Yeah, I agree 0 WM STR builds are the way to go right now. It's mainly because how WPF is working at the moment.
Simply, current WPF formula should be changed. I'm not sure why it was changed to current format in first place, but it looks ridiculous now.

Level 35 character can have:
- 121 WPF with 0 (!) Weapon Master skill - 121 WPF is completely fine for melee,
- 137 WPF with 3 WM skill - which isn't much of a difference,
- 152 WPF with 5 WM skill - difference between 137 and 152 WPF is unnoticable in game for me, between 121 and 152 there is slight difference, but nothing crutial.

Between 5 skill points put into WM, there is 31 WPF points difference. And you have to remember with armor, you will lose more WPF points when you have more WPF, since it's % WPF decrease penalty. So effective difference (depending from armor) will be 20-25 WPF for 5 skill points. Going higher than 5 WM makes it even less relative difference. So obviously, something is wrong here.
The question is, why person with 0 WM (so person who don't care about swing speed), can have 121 WPF?

It should be more like 70 WPF with 0 WM (with 70 WPF you see your swings are slower, but it's still playable - every pure crossbowman with 70 1h/2h WPF can confirm that). Then every WM skill should actually give you more than ~8 WPF points per skill.

chadz is very good in making some complicated formulas, so I don't think it should be big problem for him to make proper formula here. Builds with 6 WM should get about WPF what they have now. Above that, WPF number could be just slightly (!) buffed.

BTW: Long time ago, I've read they are going to change how WM is working. But that was like a year ago, and still nothing happened :(. But the good thing is, devs see the problem exists here.
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Tzar on December 06, 2012, 11:08:41 am
+1
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Akynos on December 06, 2012, 10:29:46 pm
lol, u mad ?

Strength builds themselves are not OP: actually, going full str with little equipment is a disadvantage in my opinion. Why? because although you benefit from extra damage and HP, you are easily killed. Extra HP, as you know, is only truly useful when combined with a lot of armor ; at low-medium armor it is close to useless.Plus, being full str without armor does not quite grant you the speed needed to evade/outrun the enemies on the long run : You still end up getting ganked/shot. By so, full str itself is not very useful.

However, combined with lots of armor and damaging weaps, it becomes really good : You are almost as fast as when you are naked ( due to encumberment reduction with STR) and you take full advantage of your extra HP. Finally, you don't lose as much of your WPF as other classes, as it is done with a percentage:

110 raw WPF ==> 70 effective WPF
150 raw WPF ==> 95 effective WPF

If you are willing to sacrifice your looms for gold, your ability to feint,spam, outreach your ability to run, then plated full str is for you.

But is plated full str OP? If you are good at that class, yes. If you play full str like you play a 21/18 2h, no. The reason why few people go full plated str is because they do not know how to play it and are not willing to follow the sacrifices. If you know how to play this class and you are ready to let go of a few things,then you are OP.

Glaive: polearms have a weird, stuttering animation. The longer the weapon, the more stuttering the animation seems. Glaive being the longest sideswinging polearm, along with a decent speed rating (90), this justifies why it looks so broken.
However, I would not suggest the removal of the weird animation, as it is basically what makes the polearms special. Otherwise they would be underpowered two-handers.

Voila !
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: zagibu on December 07, 2012, 12:35:13 am
I am of the opinion, that 0 WM should equal 0 WPF. This would of course break many current builds (including mine), but that's what the retire/respec buttons are for.

Free WPF is what makes the STR whoredom possible. I would make the scaling something like this (if you don't hybridize):

Code: [Select]
1 WM =  30 WPF
 2 WM =  59 WPF
 3 WM =  87 WPF
 4 WM = 112 WPF
 5 WM = 134 WPF
 6 WM = 152 WPF
 7 WM = 166 WPF
 8 WM = 178 WPF
 9 WM = 186 WPF
10 WM = 190 WPF

With this, a heavy armor user has to put at least 4 points into WM, or he will be slow as molasses, due to the weight penalty.
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: San on December 07, 2012, 07:48:12 am
Would anyone like a linear wpf penalty or no?
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Tzar on December 07, 2012, 07:54:07 am
Ive all ready made a thread about this an even tho people agreed nothing happend....

But yeah its retarded people can just skip using WM all together str or no str build doesn't matter 117 wpf is more then enough if your a pure build..
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Vibe on December 07, 2012, 08:55:14 am
word, Leshma bro, word
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: BADPLAYER_old2 on December 07, 2012, 11:32:59 am
Quote from: Akynos on December 06, 2012, 10:29:46 pm

Don't you use +3 plate with 30+ str?
And you try tell me that isn't the reason you beat most people in melee?

It's not because you are "good at strength builds" it is because they are fucking easy to play and any semi competent player can use them and do better than they would with normal builds.

Only the top top players might do better with say 18/21 because they require a great deal more skill to use than stacking strength.
When you have alot of strength and ironflesh you have the ability to make a ton more mistakes than a balanced or agi build(with or without heavy armour although obviously greatly increased by armour) which is a HUGE deal whether in duel scenarios or battle.

I say all this as someone who is 24/15 going 27/15 next level so very much so a strength build.
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Vibe on December 07, 2012, 11:39:56 am
Quote from: idle on December 07, 2012, 11:32:59 am
Don't you use +3 plate with 30+ str?
And you try tell me that isn't the reason you beat most people in melee?

He beats them with his superior technique, not his lame ass build!

Here's a good example of his superior technique aka scrubbed in round 2 on native:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 07, 2012, 11:25:26 pm
Quote from: Vibe on December 07, 2012, 11:39:56 am
Here's a good example of his superior technique aka scrubbed in round 2 on native:

(click to show/hide)
A good example of him getting scrubbed in round 2 on native is a broken pic?
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Akynos on December 08, 2012, 01:48:48 am
Quote from: idle on December 07, 2012, 11:32:59 am
Don't you use +3 plate with 30+ str?
And you try tell me that isn't the reason you beat most people in melee?


I sometimes play with my 1h STF without any loom, and I still get top scoreboard on EU1. So no, it isn't the reason why I beat most people in melee.
There are other players, such as Butan, who are shit when it comes to combat reflexes, and yet are a true challenge in melee because they are great at getting the hits to pass the defense of the enemy, and so are most powerful with a str build.
It all depends on playstyle.

Quote from: idle on December 07, 2012, 11:32:59 am
It's not because you are "good at strength builds" it is because they are fucking easy to play and any semi competent player can use them and do better than they would with normal builds.
On duel server,i've seen average players who got sliced to death in medium armor, then they got a big armor and lots of str with an alt and didn't even hit once. It merely took more hits to take them down. After that, they remember why they don't go for that build. You should try.

Quote from: Vibe on December 07, 2012, 11:39:56 am
He beats them with his superior technique, not his lame ass build!

Here's a good example of his superior technique aka scrubbed in round 2 on native:

(click to show/hide)

Hey Vibe, nice to see you can talk after all, you were so quiet on nditions while I sliced your spasmatic ass. Doesn't matter, I never pretended to be good at native anyway, I'm not used to playing an agi-based character anymore.
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Moncho on December 08, 2012, 01:51:40 am
QQ moar. 15/21 shielder build, and not many people survived me (about a month and a half ago, last time I played).
Either the meta has changed a lot in a relatively short time, or you are just yet another QQer...
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Torben on December 08, 2012, 01:57:59 am
yes lets make this thread about epeen -.-
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Shaksie on December 08, 2012, 02:06:43 am
Quote from: san. on December 07, 2012, 07:48:12 am
Would anyone like a linear wpf penalty or no?

Yessir, paint many pictures for our collective stupidity!

Also, nerf strength.
With a reasonable speed weapon (I used Heavy Bastard Sword because it is mighty overpowered in my opinion) and light-medium armor I was more than fast enough; I can still feint well and my attack speed is easily high enough. The only disadvantage is that I can't chase people, however my footwork feels almost unhindered. The only difference is that I can take double the punishment and deal it equally.
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Rhaelys on December 08, 2012, 02:58:36 am
As a level 34 30/12 Glaive user, I can only say that my build is horribly fucking broken and I can't understand why it's taken people so long to realize how amazing Strength Glaive builds are.
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 08, 2012, 03:03:36 am
Skono is a good player, sure he crutches plate, but if I don't hit him once due to blocking skills and well placed kicks it doesn't really matter.

Glaives could use a speed or dmg nerf, but then again so could practically every 2h sword. STR builds are overrated with anything but the longest weaponry, I prefer agi stacking myself... what really is in need of a nerf is medium armor, there really isn't a big difference between plate and a kuyak in armor rating, huge difference in weight though, and if even 0 ath chars could have weight affect them in a big way that'd be nice.
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Grumbs on December 08, 2012, 02:30:54 pm
Ahem http://forum.meleegaming.com/announcements/crpg-status-and-plans/

The 0wm builds were something people talked about many months prior to that even, but I think with that update people assumed it was getting tweaked in the near future, so people didn't complain so much.

But yeah higher WPF should get a buff. Removing free wpf is an option, but might be better to buff higher WPF than straight nerf a whole lot of builds
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Laufknoten on December 08, 2012, 05:54:46 pm
Quote from: Grumbs on December 08, 2012, 02:30:54 pm
Removing free wpf is an option, but might be better to buff higher WPF than straight nerf a whole lot of builds
Actually, why not? Ironflesh should be a luxury skill, not something every non-hybrid infantry build should have en masse.
As it is now, a heavy strenght build (with 0 or 1 WM) is extremely viable in battle and Godzilla-like in siege. A high agi build (I'm not talking about 18/21, I'm talking about 12/27, 9/30 or something like that) can be quite effective in battle if used by a good player and with the right equipment, but every mistake will most likely be punished by death.
     
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Akynos on December 08, 2012, 07:20:04 pm
Quote from: Laufknoten on December 08, 2012, 05:54:46 pm
Actually, why not? Ironflesh should be a luxury skill, not something every non-hybrid infantry build should have en masse.
As it is now, a heavy strenght build (with 0 or 1 WM) is extremely viable in battle and Godzilla-like in siege. A high agi build (I'm not talking about 18/21, I'm talking about 12/27, 9/30 or something like that) can be quite effective in battle if used by a good player and with the right equipment, but every mistake will most likely be punished by death.
   

STR is the main element of melee, it is therefore normal that most infantry have str-oriented builds. For sure it is easier to use than agi-build in those cases but it comes down to preferences.
I think we should not make agi builds as viable as str builds for melee. I personally see agility as a bonus that allows players to find the playstyle they like. Some people are better with more agility, those are players who use feints and footwork to win. Others, such as me, are not great at feints and footwork, but prefer high survivability and sly techniques to hit with high damage.
IMO, people should focus on a build that they find effective with their playstyle, regardless of str or agi.
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Vibe on December 08, 2012, 07:31:30 pm
Quote from: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 07, 2012, 11:25:26 pm
A good example of him getting scrubbed in round 2 on native is a broken pic?

pic gets updated regularly as it's an ongoing tournament, it's down atm though

http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,254140.0.html

Quote from: Akynos on December 08, 2012, 01:48:48 am
Hey Vibe, nice to see you can talk after all, you were so quiet on nditions while I sliced your spasmatic ass. Doesn't matter, I never pretended to be good at native anyway, I'm not used to playing an agi-based character anymore.

Lol, I never speak much on nditions. Then again, any scrub that backpedals and turtles can kill me when I'm practicing my uberawesome spasms (which is 95% of my time spent on Nditions), so no medal for you there, fatty turtle boi. FYI anyone can fight like you do, problem is most of the people like to play styles/builds that are not for braindead people. PS I never claimed I was any good at native either, would probably have to play a lot more to keep up with the native guys. Good try at the tourny though, I bet you got an early PMS for losing so bad.

kiss kiss
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 08, 2012, 07:41:26 pm
Quote from: Vibe on December 08, 2012, 07:31:30 pm
Lol, I never speak much on nditions. Then again, any scrub that backpedals and turtles can kill me when I'm practicing my uberawesome spasms (which is 95% of my time spent on Nditions), so no medal for you there, fatty turtle boi. FYI anyone can fight like you do, problem is most of the people like to play styles/builds that are not for braindead people. PS I never claimed I was any good at native either, would probably have to play a lot more to keep up with the native guys. Good try at the tourny though, I bet you got an early PMS for losing so bad.

kiss kiss
You are.
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Akynos on December 08, 2012, 07:42:22 pm
(click to show/hide)

Strange, I thought you were a mature guy. Guess I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Vibe on December 08, 2012, 07:44:08 pm
Quote from: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 08, 2012, 07:41:26 pm
You are.

bro you just haven't met any good native players yet
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Leshma on December 08, 2012, 07:53:07 pm
Quote from: Akynos on December 08, 2012, 07:20:04 pm
STR is the main element of melee, it is therefore normal that most infantry have str-oriented builds. For sure it is easier to use than agi-build in those cases but it comes down to preferences.
I think we should not make agi builds as viable as str builds for melee. I personally see agility as a bonus that allows players to find the playstyle they like. Some people are better with more agility, those are players who use feints and footwork to win. Others, such as me, are not great at feints and footwork, but prefer high survivability and sly techniques to hit with high damage.
IMO, people should focus on a build that they find effective with their playstyle, regardless of str or agi.

Interesting view. You agree that str builds have upper hand and you think that's the way it should be. Naturally, I disagree because I think AGI and STR builds should be balanced. But only thing that matters is opinion of developers.

I didn't start this thread to try to influence them, just wanted to see how many people acknowledge this "issue". It was strange that I couldn't find a single STR OP topic in here.

Anyway, this might change but most probably won't anytime soon. Devs have bigger worries than this and I prefer things to stay that way. My only hope is that they view this as a issue and they won't make the same mistakes in the future.
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 08, 2012, 08:01:05 pm
Quote from: Vibe on December 08, 2012, 07:44:08 pm
bro you just haven't met any good native players yet
Tobi, M, etc, I didn't say you were one of the very best, but you are good.
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Teeth on December 08, 2012, 08:40:48 pm
Quote from: Vibe on December 07, 2012, 11:39:56 am
Here's a good example of his superior technique aka scrubbed in round 2 on native:

(click to show/hide)
How is getting beaten with 4 to 7 by a guy that beats GTX getting 'scrubbed'? Don't pretend you would have done better.

When is the next European Duelling Tournament?
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Shemaforash on December 08, 2012, 08:44:05 pm
GTX is scrub tho
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Laufknoten on December 08, 2012, 09:08:31 pm
Quote from: Akynos on December 08, 2012, 07:20:04 pm
STR is the main element of melee, it is therefore normal that most infantry have str-oriented builds. For sure it is easier to use than agi-build in those cases but it comes down to preferences.
Sure. Let STR be the main element of combat, but at least punish those who don't pay any interest in agility and WM.
Strength is just one aspect of a great fighter, he also needs endurance, speed, good reflexes and all that stuff. And besides all that cRPG is about balance and diversity of builds, playstyles and items imo. But at the moment people who like to play agi based builds are somewhat disadvantaged because of how effective and easy to play high strength builds are.
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Vibe on December 08, 2012, 10:49:18 pm
Quote from: Teeth on December 08, 2012, 08:40:48 pm
How is getting beaten with 4 to 7 by a guy that beats GTX getting 'scrubbed'? Don't pretend you would have done better.

I'm sorry to inform you but

Quote from: Shemaforash on December 08, 2012, 08:44:05 pm
GTX is scrub tho

backpedal stab spam don't work against competent players
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 08, 2012, 10:55:50 pm
And there are no levels and looms for him to stack.
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Shemaforash on December 08, 2012, 11:29:27 pm
I'm glad he's not on nditions anymore, he really filled it with his constant whining and constantly avoiding duels with me so he doesn't get completely stomped. Because he wants to keep his... points?

EDIT: Thought you should see this:

(click to show/hide)

Quote from: Teeth on December 08, 2012, 08:40:48 pm
When is the next European Duelling Tournament?

No idea, that duelling tournament was quickly organised without that much thought behind it. The regular or... official? is the Nditions dueling tournaments normally organised by Alexander.
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: To Kill A Dead Horse on December 08, 2012, 11:54:11 pm
Give agilty speed weapon speed bonus and you will see how bad pure str builds really are.
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Ostulor on December 09, 2012, 03:14:08 am
Quote from: To Kill A Dead Horse on December 08, 2012, 11:54:11 pm
Give agilty speed weapon speed bonus and you will see how bad pure str builds really are.

So, I should make a 12/27 1her with an Elite Scimitar and stun lock people until they die?
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Malaclypse on December 09, 2012, 08:41:11 am
Changing the way proficiency is attained could help to balance Strength and Agility. Tydeus had a detailed suggestion in regards to a re-work, though I can't for the life of me find it now. Basically, Agility would give some prof passively for each point into it (much in the same way as Str has a passive health increase), and WM would be given increased value for even more Strength oriented builds.
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Dezilagel on December 09, 2012, 10:11:57 pm
Quote from: Shemaforash on December 08, 2012, 11:29:27 pm
(click to show/hide)

Fo' shame.

GTX would be a funny (in the laugh-at-not-with, way) troll, if he just wasn't GTX...
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Ujin on December 09, 2012, 11:48:04 pm
Any devs even considering this ? Would be nice to know their take on the current STR vs AGI situation.
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Leshma on December 10, 2012, 02:04:32 am
Archers were nerfed recently. Before that nerf, single average archer wasn't much of treat but in big numbers they were (and still are).

Currently single tank is strong on his own (always was) but their numbers multiplied and now they are the main choice of all classes on both battle and siege server. Situation on siege is worse than in battle but I have to say I've never seen so many pure str tincans in "new" cRPG. Seems to me that many people have more gold than they need.

Atm. cRPG is nerfed version of 2010. cRPG with ranged being nerfed a lot (mostly archers, xbowmen and throwers are almost the same) and ton of tincans.

 
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Pentecost on December 10, 2012, 03:41:17 am
Quote from: Leshma on December 10, 2012, 02:04:32 am
Currently single tank is strong on his own (always was) but their numbers multiplied and now they are the main choice of all classes on both battle and siege server. Situation on siege is worse than in battle but I have to say I've never seen so many pure str tincans in "new" cRPG. Seems to me that many people have more gold than they need.

Sounds like the EU metagame is different from the NA metagame. While it's true that NA siege, when it isn't dead, usually has a high proportion of 2h/crossbow heavy armor players, NA battle barely has any tincans most of the time. On a day when there are around 70-100 people on, you will usually see maybe 2-6 players total wearing plate.
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Moncho on December 10, 2012, 09:02:21 am
Congratulations, you wanted nerfed archers, you got them. Now live with what you asked for...
Reminds me of this:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Strength builds, glaives and other broken things
Post by: Akynos on December 10, 2012, 10:26:53 am
Quote from: Leshma on December 10, 2012, 02:04:32 am
.
(click to show/hide)

Lets not exaggerate, there are many more melee str builds yes, but still relatively few full str tincans. Maybe because a build such as 24/15 with 69 armor is more efficient in battle than a full str plate build.