Strength builds, glaives and other broken things

[Leshma]

For how long we'll have to live with free wpf bullshit tanks spamming shit hoping for glances and lucky chambers errday? Also, that stupid shovel of a weapon, do something about it, will ya?

That would be all for now.

[Molly]

Didn't you start the thread "Leave the devs alone"?

And now this? Make up your mind! D:

[Leshma]

I'm not demanding anything, just stating the obvious issue.

[Darkkarma]

i thought this was an na problm

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorder

[Leshma]

i thought this was an na problm

Someone said that it's a lot worse on EU side, and I think it was Smoothrich.

[Laufknoten]

It seems like 90% of all inf players use strenght oriented builds and wear 40+ armor. A heavy kuyak (which is basically a medium armor) with looms and heavy gloves can generate an armor rating of 60+. Now add those 6 or 7 points in IF most players have and there you go.
It's the same like the lvl 35 build in peasant cloths with a +3 battle fork... You think you fight a guy in medium armor, but it's actually a tin can just without all the cons of plate armor.
Anyway, if you play with a melee agi build you are either a masochist and you like to gimp yourself or you're kingrimm.

[Angellore]

Yeah, I agree 0 WM STR builds are the way to go right now. It's mainly because how WPF is working at the moment.
Simply, current WPF formula should be changed. I'm not sure why it was changed to current format in first place, but it looks ridiculous now.

Level 35 character can have:
- 121 WPF with 0 (!) Weapon Master skill - 121 WPF is completely fine for melee,
- 137 WPF with 3 WM skill - which isn't much of a difference,
- 152 WPF with 5 WM skill - difference between 137 and 152 WPF is unnoticable in game for me, between 121 and 152 there is slight difference, but nothing crutial.

Between 5 skill points put into WM, there is 31 WPF points difference. And you have to remember with armor, you will lose more WPF points when you have more WPF, since it's % WPF decrease penalty. So effective difference (depending from armor) will be 20-25 WPF for 5 skill points. Going higher than 5 WM makes it even less relative difference. So obviously, something is wrong here.
The question is, why person with 0 WM (so person who don't care about swing speed), can have 121 WPF?

It should be more like 70 WPF with 0 WM (with 70 WPF you see your swings are slower, but it's still playable - every pure crossbowman with 70 1h/2h WPF can confirm that). Then every WM skill should actually give you more than ~8 WPF points per skill.

chadz is very good in making some complicated formulas, so I don't think it should be big problem for him to make proper formula here. Builds with 6 WM should get about WPF what they have now. Above that, WPF number could be just slightly (!) buffed.

BTW: Long time ago, I've read they are going to change how WM is working. But that was like a year ago, and still nothing happened . But the good thing is, devs see the problem exists here.

[Tzar]

+1

[Akynos]

lol, u mad ?

Strength builds themselves are not OP: actually, going full str with little equipment is a disadvantage in my opinion. Why? because although you benefit from extra damage and HP, you are easily killed. Extra HP, as you know, is only truly useful when combined with a lot of armor ; at low-medium armor it is close to useless.Plus, being full str without armor does not quite grant you the speed needed to evade/outrun the enemies on the long run : You still end up getting ganked/shot. By so, full str itself is not very useful.

However, combined with lots of armor and damaging weaps, it becomes really good : You are almost as fast as when you are naked ( due to encumberment reduction with STR) and you take full advantage of your extra HP. Finally, you don't lose as much of your WPF as other classes, as it is done with a percentage:

110 raw WPF ==> 70 effective WPF
150 raw WPF ==> 95 effective WPF

If you are willing to sacrifice your looms for gold, your ability to feint,spam, outreach your ability to run, then plated full str is for you.

But is plated full str OP? If you are good at that class, yes. If you play full str like you play a 21/18 2h, no. The reason why few people go full plated str is because they do not know how to play it and are not willing to follow the sacrifices. If you know how to play this class and you are ready to let go of a few things,then you are OP.

Glaive: polearms have a weird, stuttering animation. The longer the weapon, the more stuttering the animation seems. Glaive being the longest sideswinging polearm, along with a decent speed rating (90), this justifies why it looks so broken.
However, I would not suggest the removal of the weird animation, as it is basically what makes the polearms special. Otherwise they would be underpowered two-handers.

Voila !

[zagibu]

I am of the opinion, that 0 WM should equal 0 WPF. This would of course break many current builds (including mine), but that's what the retire/respec buttons are for.

Free WPF is what makes the STR whoredom possible. I would make the scaling something like this (if you don't hybridize):

Code: [Select]

1 WM =  30 WPF
 2 WM =  59 WPF
 3 WM =  87 WPF
 4 WM = 112 WPF
 5 WM = 134 WPF
 6 WM = 152 WPF
 7 WM = 166 WPF
 8 WM = 178 WPF
 9 WM = 186 WPF
10 WM = 190 WPF

With this, a heavy armor user has to put at least 4 points into WM, or he will be slow as molasses, due to the weight penalty.

[San]

Would anyone like a linear wpf penalty or no?

[Tzar]

Ive all ready made a thread about this an even tho people agreed nothing happend....

But yeah its retarded people can just skip using WM all together str or no str build doesn't matter 117 wpf is more then enough if your a pure build..

[Vibe]

word, Leshma bro, word

[BADPLAYER_old2]

Don't you use +3 plate with 30+ str?
And you try tell me that isn't the reason you beat most people in melee?

It's not because you are "good at strength builds" it is because they are fucking easy to play and any semi competent player can use them and do better than they would with normal builds.

Only the top top players might do better with say 18/21 because they require a great deal more skill to use than stacking strength.
When you have alot of strength and ironflesh you have the ability to make a ton more mistakes than a balanced or agi build(with or without heavy armour although obviously greatly increased by armour) which is a HUGE deal whether in duel scenarios or battle.

I say all this as someone who is 24/15 going 27/15 next level so very much so a strength build.