cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Templar_Steevee on November 15, 2012, 02:27:09 am

Title: Archery nowdays
Post by: Templar_Steevee on November 15, 2012, 02:27:09 am
After last patch archery changed a lot - archers can't kite anymore. And that's good.
Now archer is forced to figth in melee - that's good too, it makes game funnier.
But there should be done one more thing: give archers a possibility to figth in melee.

Atm x-bow users are"ultimate archer killers" They are fastest (except mounted) units in game.

Archers are easy to catch nowdays, but thy cant have a serious weapon (taking one or two slots) without getting only one stact of arrows.

How to give archers possibility to figth in melee? Answer is simple - make all bows one slot.
Archers will still be slow as hell (even slower because of heavier melee weapon), but some of them will figth more instead of running away.

I think it could make game better for all.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Kelugarn on November 15, 2012, 02:33:14 am
Hmm... No.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Rebelyell on November 15, 2012, 02:35:00 am
that was my idea QQ
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Kelugarn on November 15, 2012, 02:35:32 am
It's an awful idea. They made the most powerful bows two slots for a reason.

Imagine a 18/21 archer build as follows:
6PD
6PS
7ATH
7WM

~145 bow wpf
~100 2h wpf.

Rus/Longbow + longsword [German/SoW/Great sword/etc.] + arrows ofc.

An archer shouldn't have the same melee capabilities as a dedicated 2h/pole-arm user.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Cosmos_Shielder on November 15, 2012, 02:36:57 am
Hmmm.Why not!
but then we should do something for arrow to prevent archer getting more arrow because of that.
why not putting every  bow except rus and long , as a zero slot item , put arrow as 2 slot and add 80% (this figure lmay be tuned between 50 to 100 )  in every quiver.
then lower rus and long to 1 slot.

So Rus Bow and Long bow would still be the same for pure archer except that they have the chance to take a on handed weapon.
And other bow would get too much arrow so they would have the opportunity  to take another weapon


Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Cosmos_Shielder on November 15, 2012, 02:45:08 am
It's an awful idea. They made the most powerful bows two slots for a reason.

Imagine a 18/21 archer build as follows:
6PD
6PS
7ATH
7WM

~145 bow wpf
~100 2h wpf.

Rus/Longbow + longsword [German/SoW/Great sword/etc.]

An archer shouldn't have the same melee capabilities as a dedicated 2h/pole-arm user.
with my idea rus and long bower would only be able to take one slot because they would need at least one quiver
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Kelugarn on November 15, 2012, 02:57:49 am
How to give archers possibility to figth in melee? Answer is simple - make all bows one slot.
Archers will still be slow as hell (even slower because of heavier melee weapon), but some of them will figth more instead of running away.
Strong bow + big weapon.

This is what I'm against. This is one of the things that was intentionally removed from the game oh so many months ago.

Hmmm.Why not!
but then we should do something for arrow to prevent archer getting more arrow because of that.
why not putting every  bow except rus and long , as a zero slot item , put arrow as 2 slot and add 80% (this figure lmay be tuned between 50 to 100 )  in every quiver.
then lower rus and long to 1 slot.

So Rus Bow and Long bow would still be the same for pure archer except that they have the chance to take a on handed weapon.
And other bow would get too much arrow so they would have the opportunity  to take another weapon

Interesting solution, but I don't know how the archer community would like being stuck with double the arrows and double the weight for double the slots. The current one-quiver-one-slot system allows for archers to travel light, especially with the new quiver weights. Increasing the amount of arrows to 200 or 400% would result in a proportional weight gain, not sure how being forced to carry at least 30-50 arrows and 14-20 weight (or none at all, under a larger, 2 slot, quiver system) would sit with people.

And currently dedicated Rus/longbow archers can take a 1h weapon with them, just not anything that can be used in melee offensively.

Also there's always the option of an archer dropping their arrows/bow and picking up a melee weapon when threatened at close range, something I would think would be more appealing than holding onto all those lead arrows and trying to fight.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Araxiel on November 15, 2012, 02:58:41 am
It is fine as it is. I really enjoy to slash runaway archers in the back.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Casimir on November 15, 2012, 03:04:25 am
Increase the number of arrows per quiver and make 1 quiver + 2 sot bow viable.  Thus gives access to a decent 1 slot weapon if they wish to attempt melee. Archers that want to have 2 quivers are then forced to use a low quality 0 slot weapon.

Your suggestion i believe is to accommodating for archers as it would allow for an incredibly powerful bow, a quiver of arrows and a top tier 2h/polearm (which we al know are the most effective weapons).
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Tanken on November 15, 2012, 03:29:59 am
I'll stand up for your suggestion, even though it does sound crappy to melee players. Bows should be 1 slot, either that, or make arrows take up 0 slots. This way, you can still have a 1-2 slot weapon and a 1-2 slot bow, but your other 2 slots are obviously going to be for arrows.



However, I do think that archery has finally reached a point of somewhat balance with other classes--now let's fix onehanders so they stop glancing all of the time.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Bronto on November 15, 2012, 03:31:34 am
Best solution is to make regular arrows, only regular arrows, 0 slot. Then rus and longbow users can take a 1 slot weapon. Or leave it the same because it's so hard to pick up a dropped weapon.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Tennenoth on November 15, 2012, 03:45:46 am
I'm not sure I understand why people are saying this is necessary.

As many people know, I personally use a longbow along with a one slot melee weapon (langes messer), I have never had a problem with this and although I am classed to be a melee/archer hybrid it doesn't make much of a difference that I carry only one stack of arrows.

At level 30 I was using the following build;

Strength: 18
Agility: 21

Athletics: 7
Power Strike: 3
Power Draw: 6
Weapon Master: 7

Archery: 159
Two Handed: 55

Now, even if you don't have the powerstrike or the melee wpf, it is still perfectly viable to carry a decent melee weapon with you. Sure you've got a slightly limited arsenal, particularly if you want to use polearms or two handers, but at the end of the day, you can do it.

Archers have been nerfed and buggered continually but at the end of the day, they're still usable, ok, you can't run but I look around on the battlefield and I still see that the most noticable archers are the ones who are a good shot but are able to defend themselves in melee. You don't need the wpf for melee although it helps but sacrificing a few points (I believe 6 or so) in archery for the ability to swing significantly faster is well worth it.

I completely disagree with your suggestions as although you can't kite as well as you used to, you already have the ability to defend yourselves with a few very little negatives.

There is no need to reduce the slot requirement on the higher powered bows, if you choose to use those then you have several options. There is a 0 slot hammer that allows you to block, although it's quite crap in attacking back, you still have something, you take that and an extra stack of arrows for your War bow/Longbow then it's your choice, or you do as I do, drop one stack of arrows in favour of a proper melee weapon. If you don't like that, then you can take two stacks of arrows but class with the fact that you'll need to grab a melee weapon at some point and hunt the battlefield.

Alternatively you can use a one slot bow and take a proper melee weapon and two stacks of arrows, or go one further, take a 2 slot melee weapon, such as the Heavy Bastard Sword (Quicker weapons for obvious reasons) and one stack of arrows.

The options are there, there is just no need to lower the slots or increase the number of arrows in a stack, both of those might be useful if there was a problem, but there isn't. I've played as an archer since day one (Ignore the HA phase, I still had a bow) and throughout that time I have always carried a melee weapon, and always a decent one.

17 arrows is more than enough for me, and there are always plenty of them scattered around the battlefield if you ever need a quick restock. I'm not here to shout "adapt" or any of that crap at you, I'm here to say that it's not a change that's needed and to offer a couple of already apparent solutions.

At the end of the day, you increase the number of arrows, you run the risk of archers suddenly having 50 masterwork bodkin arrows to shoot, increasing the incentive to run or you allow them to have a decent melee weapon, 34 masterwork bodkin arrows and more archers with the more powerful bows.

Even if you're not good in melee as an archer, use your head, there are plenty of ways to get one over on your melee counterparts.

In short, increase the number of arrows = more arrows for someone to shoot at you as they back away.
lower the slots on the two high powered bows = more archers dealing more damage with the same number of arrows & decent melee.

I hope this makes sense, I wrote it quite hastily and although I have proof read it several times, I've never been fantastic at not rambling!
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Templar_Steevee on November 15, 2012, 12:59:18 pm
Strong bow + big weapon.

Also there's always the option of an archer dropping their arrows/bow and picking up a melee weapon when threatened at close range,

Strong bow is not so powerfull, and with one quiver they will pew-pew in about one minute. Archer with strong bow and 1 stack wf arrows and a melle weapon will be almost like a thrower imo.

As an archer it's pretty hard to pick up a weapon, because archers are 2nd line support class, especially, when enemies are charging.

And I have to agree with Tenne. One quiver can be enougth, but only in low populated servers, and now when you are picking up an arrowdifferent than you are using, you are dropping one of your equipped weapon.

IMO if archer want to be helpfull he should kill horses or riders and other ranged. To kill a standard horse i have to shoot 2-3 arrows. Plenty of you will say it's small amount, but good riders on champion arabian warhorses can dodge arrows in medium and long range.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Piok on November 15, 2012, 01:04:50 pm
I hate xbows too (arbamy old friends most) too effective for little skill involved..
As for 1slot bows: allow only one ammo per ranged... solves problem with kite archies, xbows cav, cav archer, throwers but too harsh for them so buff acuracy  :wink:
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Vibe on November 15, 2012, 01:20:47 pm
archery before - gay
archery nowadays - still gay
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on November 15, 2012, 01:38:24 pm
I hate xbows too (arbamy old friends most) too effective for little skill involved..

 :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Piok on November 15, 2012, 01:41:24 pm
 :cry:
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Templar_Steevee on November 15, 2012, 01:42:51 pm
I hate xbows too (arbamy old friends most) too effective for little skill involved..
As for 1slot bows: allow only one ammo per ranged... solves problem with kite archies, xbows cav, cav archer, throwers but too harsh for them so buff acuracy  :wink:

Decreasing amount of missels is not a solution, and archers are accurate enougth. IMO ranged are not letting horse bundle of stickss to feel untouchable, and total gods of battlefield.

Just wonder what could happen if range will have less amount of missels: some of them will stop shooting horses. Less archers schooting horses - that will make more horses appear on battlefied. More horses - cav rape on battle servers. 
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Piok on November 15, 2012, 01:49:05 pm
Buffing accuracy I meant for throwers only and nobody else.
As for cavraping without ranged: If I wasn't in constant zigzag mode I will have much more time for looking after cav. And many ranged even don't target cavs.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Templar_Steevee on November 15, 2012, 02:02:06 pm
that's true, but a single archer like me is able to kill 6 or more horses or riders in one round :)
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Piok on November 15, 2012, 02:05:16 pm
that's true, but a single archer like me is able to kill 6 or more horses or riders in one round :)
Wish that superbowers were only on my team :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Templar_Steevee on November 15, 2012, 02:07:39 pm
Join Templars, with same banner i won't shoot you  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Piok on November 15, 2012, 02:13:30 pm
Me kuyak wearing pagan(atheist) of first class joining templars :lol:
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on November 15, 2012, 02:30:16 pm
I'm a 2slot xbow my old friend and love shooting at horses. Its just so sweet when you are able to drop a horse while the cav guy is riding in your teammates and cut him open while he is prone.... ahhhhh yeah thats good...
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Piok on November 15, 2012, 05:08:41 pm
I'm a 2slot xbow my old friend and love shooting at horses. Its just so sweet when you are able to drop a horse while the cav guy is riding in your teammates and cut him open while he is prone.... ahhhhh yeah thats good...
So you actively help enemy to win cause from this situation most taemkills arises :mrgreen: 
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Kafein on November 15, 2012, 05:14:00 pm
What about making all bows one slot, allowing only one quiver per archer (maybe increasing the number of arrows ? idk ) and making all weapons that are currently sheathed on the back unsheatable ? :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Piok on November 15, 2012, 05:21:32 pm
What about making all bows one slot, allowing only one quiver per archer (maybe increasing the number of arrows ? idk ) and making all weapons that are currently sheathed on the back unsheatable ? :mrgreen:
Big quivers were 24 so yes. But I don't think that rusbowers and longbowers need free space for twohander. Still they can have 1slot 1h + 0slot buckler. As for xbows around 15 bolts is enough.
About sheath: many polarmers will be angry not to mention 2h swordmen. Hmm.. but my 2hander has a nice sheath  :twisted:
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Templar_Steevee on November 15, 2012, 11:36:58 pm
IMO rus and longbow users should be able to use 1h weapons to be able to defend themselves from weak agi players.
For them getting a 2slot hi dmg weapons will kill their upkeep.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Adamar on November 16, 2012, 12:02:06 am
Someone is abusing kafein's account.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: AluminumMonster on November 16, 2012, 01:29:33 am
It's an awful idea. They made the most powerful bows two slots for a reason.

Imagine a 18/21 archer build as follows:
6PD
6PS
7ATH
7WM

~145 bow wpf
~100 2h wpf.

Rus/Longbow + longsword [German/SoW/Great sword/etc.] + arrows ofc.

An archer shouldn't have the same melee capabilities as a dedicated 2h/pole-arm user.

that is y theyre archers... but you expect them to melee when theyre not built for melee. its like making 2h/pole put points into archery so they can carry a bow or pick 1 up. and btw a stack of bodkins weighs about the same as a great maul, so i think added dmg or knock down should substitute that weight gain just fine.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Tot. on November 16, 2012, 01:57:27 am
But there should be done one more thing: give archers a possibility to figth in melee.

Sure. Right after melee fighters get a possibility to "fight in ranged". Though then you won't be happy either because your targets will be able to shoot back.

Dedicated ranged should have the same kind of ability to fight in close quarters as dedicated melee has to fight at ranges. Crossbow builds obviously need some fixing in this regard.

Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Adamar on November 16, 2012, 04:56:14 am
Dedicated ranged should have the same kind of ability to fight in close quarters as dedicated melee has to fight at ranges. Crossbow builds obviously need some fixing in this regard.

Sure, but only if ranged start killing as easely as melee.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Piok on November 16, 2012, 03:22:52 pm
IMO rus and longbow users should be able to use 1h weapons to be able to defend themselves from weak agi players.
For them getting a 2slot hi dmg weapons will kill their upkeep.
There are very nice and very powerful weapons like dadao, bastart(heavy in) and also cheaper 2h axes are nice + polearms are even better for supporting from second line not to mention 1h+shield combo.
So they will be not ruined and with powerful bow they will be slightly OP.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Segd on November 16, 2012, 03:34:12 pm
After last patch archery changed a lot - archers can't kite anymore. And that's good.
Now archer is forced to figth in melee - that's good too, it makes game funnier.
But there should be done one more thing: give archers a possibility to figth in melee.

Atm x-bow users are"ultimate archer killers" They are fastest (except mounted) units in game.

Archers are easy to catch nowdays, but thy cant have a serious weapon (taking one or two slots) without getting only one stact of arrows.

How to give archers possibility to figth in melee? Answer is simple - make all bows one slot.
Archers will still be slow as hell (even slower because of heavier melee weapon), but some of them will figth more instead of running away.

I think it could make game better for all.
No.
xbow+1slot melee weapon+1-2 packs of bolts = 4 slots
Bow+1slot melee weapon+1-2 packs of arrows= 4 slots

Use strong bow & 1h or one slot 2h & 2 quivers if you want to go melee.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Kafein on November 16, 2012, 03:42:54 pm
Is getting two quivers really necessary ? I wouldn't mind if all quivers had 150% more arrows but archers only were allowed to use one quiver.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Rumblood on November 17, 2012, 02:54:07 am
~145 bow wpf
~100 2h wpf.

Rus/Longbow + longsword [German/SoW/Great sword/etc.] + arrows ofc.

An archer shouldn't have the same melee capabilities as a dedicated 2h/pole-arm user.

Why does your "Dedicated" 2h/pole-arm user only have 100 WPF? Hmmmm?

How about making melee WPF actually matter? How about that, hmm? Then 100 WPF wouldn't "be the same as a DEDICATED" 2hander/pole-arm user.

Fucking melee  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Havoco on November 17, 2012, 08:47:34 am
Sure. Right after melee fighters get a possibility to "fight in ranged". Though then you won't be happy either because your targets will be able to shoot back.

Dedicated ranged should have the same kind of ability to fight in close quarters as dedicated melee has to fight at ranges. Crossbow builds obviously need some fixing in this regard.

They do, u can either get a Xbow and bolts or invest a few points in throwing and grab a slot of throwing weapons. Which, for either one u basically only need 50 wpf to use efficiently.

U could also use stones or throwing knives if the archer is wearing light armor.
(click to show/hide)

Tbh u can look at this from either side of the fence in the same way.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: EponiCo on November 17, 2012, 09:19:50 pm
I getting two quivers really necessary ? I wouldn't mind if all quivers had 150% more arrows but archers only allowed to use one quiver.

Yes, you are completely right. But it is more important to do that to crossbows first.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Templar_Steevee on November 17, 2012, 11:23:30 pm
No.
xbow+1slot melee weapon+1-2 packs of bolts = 4 slots
Bow+1slot melee weapon+1-2 packs of arrows= 4 slots

Use strong bow & 1h or one slot 2h & 2 quivers if you want to go melee.

2 slot xbow+1pack of bolts+1 slot weapon(mace for ex)=4 slots
 100 pierce dmg (mw arbelast and mw steel bolts)*13(amount of bolts)=1300 pierce dmg

2 slot bow+1pack of arrows+1 slot weapon= 4 slots
39 cut dmg(mw long bow and mw tatar arrows)*20(amount of arrows)=780 cut dmg
or
33 pierce dmg(mw long bow and mw bodkins)*17(amount of arrows)=561 pierce dmg

Archers have bonuses to dmg from PD, so numbers will be higher.

Xbow guys are moving way faster and can wear way better armour.
They also have points in melee because they don't have penalty to WPF from something like PD.
They can move constantly aiming at someone and they will be still faster than archers.

So if someone have some resonable ideas how to balance x-bows pls write them somewhere here or make new thread.

I have 2 simple ideas:
1) increase a bit str requirements for xbows
2) make a skill for x-bows like for bows is PD
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Cosmos_Shielder on November 18, 2012, 06:02:14 am
-10 Damage bujt knockdown arrow. This would make archer teamplay :D!
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: OpenPalm on November 18, 2012, 06:32:05 am
Playing an archer with 1 quiver is already viable.  Just don't spam the arrows, and pick up any bodkins you see.  EZ PZ
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Piok on November 18, 2012, 11:46:57 am
Reducing armor penalty for 2slot bows would be nice.
Reloading speed armor penalty for xbows will be nice too.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Templar_Steevee on November 18, 2012, 05:11:57 pm
-10 Damage bujt knockdown arrow. This would make archer teamplay :D!

Ppl are raging about stun after arrow hit, knockdown would be too op

Playing an archer with 1 quiver is already viable.  Just don't spam the arrows, and pick up any bodkins you see.  EZ PZ

That's true, but only on low populated servers with no cav.
If archer want to be usefull for team at first he should shoot to cav ar enemy ranged. Belive me it's wasting lots of arrows to kill a good horse (plated ones)
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Tennenoth on November 18, 2012, 11:03:40 pm
That's true, but only on low populated servers with no cav.
If archer want to be usefull for team at first he should shoot to cav ar enemy ranged. Belive me it's wasting lots of arrows to kill a good horse (plated ones)

I agree with OpenPalm, it's perfectly viable, I stop to pick up arrows whenever I need them on a regular basis. It doesn't matter if there's a lot of cav, or a lot of people, you just have to be aware. I'm sorry but I know archery has been buggered so many times in the past and will probably continue to be buggered but these aren't "solutions" to anything.
The methods are already available and it really wouldn't stretch peoples gameplay nor force them to change builds, particularly given that a lot of people are above level 31 these days.

A little trick that I've used since the arrows don't like stacking properly. Melee weapon in the first slot, arrows in the second and the bow in the third, when you go to pick up other arrows, you drop your bow. Pick it up, then the next arrow, and repeat. It's not difficult, it's not time consuming and really isn't that much of a hassle. It's a well known trick by now, but for those who aren't used to it, it might be something new and useful!

Anyway, let it go, just be glad the athletics rubbish wasn't kept and you still have some movement.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Templar_Steevee on November 19, 2012, 12:12:30 am
Tenne I agree with you, but you are more like hibrid, than pure archer. I know your gameplay.

Picking arrows is possible only when enemies lets you to do it.

On open fields arrows are landing most of times far away from you and if you will try to pick them up cav will just rape your ass.
when emenies are pushing you have no time to pick up arrows because of "bug" with picking them up with dropping something.

When on server is more than 20 vs 20 players 20 arrows is not enougth and when server is more populated even with 2 quivers I sometimes have to pick up arrows (if I'll survive that long).

Anyway it would be really nice if 6PD archers coud have a 1 slot weapon, not a 0 slot piece of wood and metal that can be used most of times only for blocking.

Many ppl will say that  for ex. migthy hand axe (i got one :D) is strong enougth to kill some players. That's true, even I killed someone with that, but afler last patch it's almost impossible to hit most of ppl because of moving speed nerf for archers. If some guys just thing and keep a proper distance, they can just spam without bothering of getting hit.

Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Jarlek on November 19, 2012, 12:38:37 am
Tenne I agree with you, but you are more like hibrid, than pure archer. I know your gameplay.
You mean he doesn't run when one or two enemies gets close? That's being an archer. Running is being a craven.

Picking arrows is possible only when enemies lets you to do it.
Because when you need to pick up new arrows is when the enemy is right next to you? Sorry, but you fail at planning.

On open fields arrows are landing most of times far away from you and if you will try to pick them up cav will just rape your ass.
when emenies are pushing you have no time to pick up arrows because of "bug" with picking them up with dropping something.
Tenne already wrote about the bug. When I first went archer it took me one round to realize that I would just have to drop the bow first, then pick up the new quiver/arrow type. It's really that simple.

And yes, lots of arrows lands in the open field, but not all. What about the ones the enemy ranged is shooting towards you? No enemy ranged shooting at you? Great! But you will have to relocate to get new arrows then. Don't spam the ones you have.

When on server is more than 20 vs 20 players 20 arrows is not enougth and when server is more populated even with 2 quivers I sometimes have to pick up arrows (if I'll survive that long).
If 20 arrows aren't enough for you when you got 20 enemies, then you are doing something wrong. That's 1 arrow for each and every single enemy. Most of those enemies will (or should) be dealt with by your allies, you are not supposed to shoot and kill every single enemy. Even if you miss half the time, that still means you got 10 shots in. If you can't do enough damage with 10 arrows, then sorry, you fail. And on big battles you got more archers around = more arrows to pick up.

Anyway it would be really nice if 6PD archers coud have a 1 slot weapon, not a 0 slot piece of wood and metal that can be used most of times only for blocking.
6PD archers can have a 1 slot weapon. PD does not affect the slot system. I'm gonna assume that you are not a complete retard and assume you meant 6PD bows. Here's an outfit: Long Bow (2), Bodkins (1), Mace (1), Khyber Knife (0). Voila! A 1 slot melee weapon. What about another one? Long Bow (2), Bodkins (1), Italian Sword (1), Buckler (0). Holy shit! You even can have a shield with a 2 slot bow!

Alternatively, if you REALLY need to have 2 stack of arrows. When you shot one quiver empty: drop it. Press G (default), pick up your bow and the quiver with something. This takes maximum 3 seconds. Then pick up a decent 1 slot weapon around. Most of the time it will even be a loomed one. Holy cow-shit, I must be a genius to realize this! Master tactician in the making!

Many ppl will say that  for ex. migthy hand axe (i got one :D) is strong enougth to kill some players. That's true, even I killed someone with that, but afler last patch it's almost impossible to hit most of ppl because of moving speed nerf for archers. If some guys just thing and keep a proper distance, they can just spam without bothering of getting hit.
So you can't melee properly with a short weapon because of low movement speed? That's ok, short weapons and slow movement is a bad combo. But how to make yourself move faster? The bow and arrows are slowing you down too much!
(click to show/hide)

Here's also another tip I learned from when I went archer. This really helps against the 2nd worst kiters in the game, Greatsword and Glaive users. Damn those people like their S keys and keeping as big a distance in melee as they can. You know what I did when they started S-key heroing when I tried to fight them with my sidearm? I pulled out my bow and shot them. That simple. They s-keyed so hard I could unsheath my Longbow, draw it, and fire an arrow in their chest. Teached most of them to not backpedal so much. Ofc, if you dropped your bow, this kinda sucks, but if they are s-keying all over the place it shouldn't be too hard to reach the place you dropped it.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Templar_Steevee on November 19, 2012, 11:01:31 pm
At the begining I have one question. How long you were archer and did you play as an after last patch?

I hate to write long posts with quoting, so Ill do it by numering, so...

1) Tenne is not a pure archer, he is a 2h archer hybrid

2) Do you know anything about getting on positions? Archers often go to the top of hills and other hard to get places to ptotect themselves from cav.

3) No enemies shooting to you? Yes. Why? I shot them down, or they were killed by my teammates. Change my good position to pick up few arrows and let enemies hiding and waiting i go for ex. behing bulding. Yea, that just great plan!
And about spamming: Archers are shooting when they see enemy in goot to shot distance when they able to hit him, anyeway, he will come and kill archer.
I think i have to remind you that archers are range units made for killing ppl from distance, not shotgun shooting.

4) Sorry, but I wrote "more than 20" please red more cearfully next time.
 Your theory about picking up arrows is not so bad, but did you ever try after patch to go alone on hi populated server to fing some arrows? I don't think so.
 And ok, more archers= more arrows to pick up, but also more enemies are able to shot you when you try to pick up some arrows.
 I also didn't mention about x-bows users. They are just waiting for lonley archers walking around battlefield looking for arrows. Cav also love single archers      without protection.

5) Yea, I mean 6 pd bows. I already said, that it's possible to go around with one quiver of arrows. Your option with shield is not for Pure Archer, but for hybrid, and I am writing all the time about pure archers.
And your "tactic" about picking up weapons from the ground is failing in most of situatons. Do you knoe that archer is a 2nd line or even further away and it's just impossible to pick up a weapon in a middle of figth?
I also don't know why I can't carry with me some 1h sword instead of my hand axe? They have the same weigth: 1. And they are also more comfortable for carring than hand axe.

Here's also another tip I learned from when I went archer. This really helps against the 2nd worst kiters in the game, Greatsword and Glaive users. Damn those people like their S keys and keeping as big a distance in melee as they can. You know what I did when they started S-key heroing when I tried to fight them with my sidearm? I pulled out my bow and shot them. That simple. They s-keyed so hard I could unsheath my Longbow, draw it, and fire an arrow in their chest. Teached most of them to not backpedal so much.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!! That's the biggest shit I read on this forum for ages.
I just checked how fas i can shoot. With mw long bow and 163 wpf in archery I can shoot arrow in a little above 3 sec without unsheating my bow (I made tests on eu3 standing still and taking times after every shoot).
In 3 sec agi s-gamer will easily catch me and chop in pieces. Your option was possible only before last patch. Now it's the best way to be dead ;)
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Adamar on November 19, 2012, 11:21:53 pm
Stop trying to justify the current ranged status, the weight increase is a nerf. You can't just drop the bow when the enemy comes for you, because then they'll likely have control of that area and you're not an archer anymore. Moving slowly gets you killed in melee, regardless of personal skill, whatever crappy melee build an archer has, it's now simply harder, if your melee oriented enemy who can swing his greatsword faster than you can swing a simple mace is also able to run around you while he does it.
So carrying a proper/heavier weapon, or even armor for that matter is still pointless and ALL archers move slower. Obvious favouritism is obvious, especially since these nerfs usually come out during some severe whinning storm fueled by noobs and by spoiled, self serving and poor excuses of gamers who should never be taken seriously.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Templar_Steevee on November 20, 2012, 12:25:20 am
I get accostumed to last patch archery status. It's normal that archers are nerfing all the time. I get accostumed to it :)

I just want to show ppl that archers using 2 slot bow and 2 quivers of arrows should have at least possibility to have a normal side weapon, not a piece of wood and metal wich can be used only for blocking.

Times when archers got +200 wpf in archery and also over 100 in melee wpf will never come back, so giving archers possibility to take some normal weapon won't be so hard..
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: To Kill A Dead Horse on November 20, 2012, 01:21:51 am
buff throwing
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Tennenoth on November 20, 2012, 04:39:22 am
I may be a Hybrid archer, but that doesn't make all that much of a difference. I'm trying to help here, I have more experience as an archer than most people in this game but I like to think that I can still stay detached and argue both sides and see why things have happened, what effect they have and how to adjust or counter these changes.

Sure you can't run as fast, sure that knocks you around a little bit but if you can't melee even slightly, then you're not playing this game properly. You have the ability, you have the chance to class, even if you are a higher level, and even if you're stuck on a class, you're not going to be completely crap in melee. You don't even need to get caught in melee either! If you're a high athetics archer, you'll still run reasonably quickly.
I'm sure with 7 athletics and two stacks of arrows, you can outrun a 4/5 athletics lightly armoured infantryman, if they're heavier, I expect you could probably match a 6 athletics player. That 100% needs testing, so don't take that as gospel or anything like that but I haven't had too much of a problem with my speed, despite only using one stack of arrows, it really isn't difficult to get more arrows either.

I rarely find myself without arrows because I can easily find them on the battlefield, you really can't argue that "players will kill you while you search for arrows" because they can kill you at any point, you're not that much more of a target if you're looking for arrows, you're not completely defenceless, you should be aware no matter the situation and you'll make sure that you know where you're heading, all of the possible attack positions, the position of your enemies, how fast they can move, the location of the ranged etc etc. All that information you'll pick up on near-automatically, particularly if you've been playing the game for long enough, it's just something that happens through playing, as you become more experienced.

Everyone in this game makes calculated risks, we practically program our brains. When I play, those come out as percentages and depending on how imperative it is for me to do something, I either risk it, or I don't. I want to explain that in a far too complicated way using my University "Neural Networks and Genetic Algorithms" course but I fear I'll just confuse myself! :D
Now, I might risk something that you wouldn't, because of my skill set, because of my different experience, or because I'm just more Gung-Ho than you are, but you can still take those risks and learn yourself. Granted you might find that you can't quite do it, and you'll adjust what you try and do but you'll get to a nice balance between success and failure.

The things I am talking about are do-able, there isn't a need to change the way archers work or give them any more melee capabilities because they're there, and I stand by that, even if I was level 33 with 174 archery and nothing in 2 handed, I would stand by it because I would just make sure that I steer clear of bad situations. I know it's all well and good me saying that, but you're going to get caught out, you're going to have times when you can do that but you did before hand, you will continue to have them happen and so on and so forth.

I blabbered quite a bit because I was distracted by my music. I apologise if this didn't make sense, it probably doesn't.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Adamar on November 20, 2012, 04:54:54 am
What you're saying is, if I have 3 athlectics and 6 ps, I'll need to switch - 6 athlectics 3 ps to be as weak as I already was, but with less damage output. However you look at it it's a nerf that favours your opponent in melee amongst other things. Not at all fair.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Casimir on November 20, 2012, 05:22:44 am
Wait your implying people think in cRPG?

This thread just got rediculous.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Tennenoth on November 20, 2012, 06:43:48 am
What you're saying is, if I have 3 athlectics and 6 ps, I'll need to switch - 6 athlectics 3 ps to be as weak as I already was, but with less damage output. However you look at it it's a nerf that favours your opponent in melee amongst other things. Not at all fair.

If that was aimed at what I wrote, then I have no idea what part of what I wrote made you think that is what I am saying... I didn't even mention PS. Sorry, you're going to have to clarify whether or not you were or there was something else that I missed. I'm completely confused.

Look at this way, and I know it sucks but we have ranged, that means we can't be good at everthing. We chose to use bows and therefore we can't melee properly, we're at a disadvantage there before and after this patch. The patch was put in place to stop archers from kiting everything because that annoyed the "two handed hero" this game has spawned, I can understand their grievances, they can't hit something that can hit them, the same type of thing about how I get pissed off with cavalry and their bump-stab/slash, you can't block that, you can't get out of the way, you're stuffed but at the end of the day, it's something that is in the game and there will always be those cases.
Now, with archery kiting, it was reduced, not eradicated, it is still possible it's just harder, you're slower but that doesn't change the game all that much.

You can still carry a melee weapon for the times that you get caught up close, there are always going to be times this happens, more so now and there is always the chance that you win regardless of how small. I agree that it's a little off, I agree it once again hurts our characters but I do not agree with giving archers more of an ability to melee because the options are already there. You chose before the patch to run instead of standing and fighting, you can still do that, just not as effectively, I chose to take up arms and defend myself, I can still do that, just not as effectively.
That's what this comes down to, you're just as good, your class just isn't quite as good, but only by a small margin. I run as fast now as I did while wearing medium armour (The same as if I wore a Heavy Aketon & mail gauntlets on top of my current gear, 7 weight increase) and you'll run as if you're wearing 14 more weight, therefore the equivalent of wearing a Heavy Kuyak. Worst case scenario with two stacks of arrows adding 10 weight each, you'll be carrying Black Armour (new). That's a lot, yes, but if you're really hurting over that, drop a stack of arrows. With all due respect, I have said all I can say, more than I should have said and I'm beginning to tire of this "discussion" since it's plain to me that no matter what I say, it won't change everyones feelings on the matter. I've tried to get a few options and views and I can't ramble about this any longer.

Realistically it's total bollocks, but game wise, it brings us all down to a faster moving game (just not for your legs!) and if it stops whine from the majority of people, I'm more than happy to turn around and flash the two fingered salute then continue to kick their arses at their own game while at a disadvantage. That's my take on things, I'll keep on plucking yew at any rate.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Havoco on November 20, 2012, 09:08:37 am
This latest patch I can agree with, I felt it was needed, but it just saddens me that pure archery is basically endangered since many archers will now be spending points in PS and maybe IF just to be able to have a chance when they inevitably get run down.

Personally I find that after playing melee a few gens (1 as 2h/Xbow, 1as shielder, and 1 as pikeman) and from playing it 2 years ago, i felt its not only that the general melee speed of weapons in this game has slowed down, but the melee meta game has slowed down as well. the melee mobs used to be this CHARGE BANZAI YYAUAYYSYAYSYA. now its 2 mobs standing on either side waiting for the melee to breakdown or someone to flank a side. Skilled melee players block more, feint more, hold more, use a lot more footwork.All these things make the fight longer.

What defines a skilled archer? Good positioning, accuracy, knowing weak spots on shields, awareness( let's face it, archers have to be fucking paranoid, more so than melee). These things simply make more decisive play.

TL;DR version: the melee meta game has slowed down and the ranged meta game has sped up.

This is why I feel ranged have been getting so many nerfs. Instead they seriously need to speed up the melee game, through a general melee weapon speed increase or possibly adding a crush through for every weapon on every direction which would be based off speed bonus and str.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Templar_Steevee on November 20, 2012, 11:45:34 am
Tenne I'm sorry if I insulted you in any way. I admire your skills and experience in this game.
IMO I'm also a preet old c-rpg player. I remember times of Appe, when website looks like some 6 old years kid made it.

I remeber you are almost all the time using some side 2h weapon. Our playstyles are just different and that makes that we thinks about this game in a bit other way, because I'm a 2 stacks of arrows longbow user since first gen.

I asked in first post to give archers more posibility in melee, because lots of ppl were writing about that many times in the past, but now it would be more helpfull than any other time.

I think it will ends like always: NO for any "buffing" for archers.
IMO at present archery dmg and accuracy is on preety good lvl.

In this game many ppl (mostly 2h and polearm hero) philosophy is: "Nerf archers, they still can shoot", so I'm not expecting that something will be changed to help a bit  archers.

Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Tennenoth on November 20, 2012, 02:25:31 pm
I understand where you're coming from Steevee, and don't worry about insulting me, my ego can handle it! ;)

Throughout my time here, yes, as I have said and you just did, I have always carried a melee weapon but that doesn't always mean that I have had the skills to use it properly. Granted I have never really run away unless the odds are just too badly stacked in my enemies favour, for example, if I can't out melee them, if there are too many of them or if I'm caught out and can see things turning ugly quickly etc but I still have the core of archery at my fingertips. I've always looked at my build as being a level 30 archer and 20 melee, I have 160 wpf in archery which allows me to be accurate enough and I can do reasonable damage due to using a longbow, which I have always used other than that time when it was too slow causing it to be broken, I even did some busy work to help get that sorted!

Anyway, as I say, the core of the gameplay is there, the major difference is that I have used my level advantage to lessen my melee disadvantage. Now, I know that people, such as yourself, have used that level advantage to increase their ranged advantage but that doesn't mean that you don't have the options of melee already there. People have said that you don't need wpf to fight effectively in melee, it's true to some extent until you come up against the extremely fast katana/heavy bastard sword/scimitar blokes who are just able to keep the pressure on you without letting you reture fire and I must say, having played native more frequently to see the differences, the melee is much faster in cRPG than it is over there.

As I said in my last post, I've laid out the options that I see and it's perfectly viable for any archer to use a melee weapon, even if you don't equip one and you look around the battlefield for something to swing, it's still there. Chances are, the people who catch you will still be the lighter armoured players, so you'll still be able to hurt them with no stats, let's face it, if a tin can catches you and you didn't allow it to happen, you're probably not good at kiting in the first place! ;)

Anyway, I have to be going now so I'll cut this a little short.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on November 20, 2012, 03:10:59 pm
In this game many ppl (mostly 2h and polearm hero) philosophy is: "Nerf archers, they still can shoot, run away, shoot again, then run, then shot, then repeat.", so I'm not expecting that something will be changed to help a bit  archers.
Also, it's not just 2hs and polearms, it's everyone who isn't an archer, shielders can't even fight archers... you say "rock, paper, scissors" as your argument for why you should beat 2h and polearm even if they're masters at dodging and dodge 15+ arrows, yet archers are the only class that can truly hard counter another (real) playstyle completely, and no class can actually even soft counter archers, at best they can end up somewhat even (or worse for the none-archer) against each other (see cav or throwing or xbowing vs aware decent archers). Kiting needs to go, the arrow weight is not extreme enough, while it makes it so light armored infantry guys (talking slightly above cloth level and with no shied here, if they had a shield they'd be to hard slowed down) can catch archers with the same level of athletics, truth be told the nerf only made them kite slightly longer.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Rebelyell on November 21, 2012, 02:18:43 am
zapper you are 1 big hybrid of everything and you cry because archer wants to have something that doesn't glance every hit.
I don't get why peps are soo against that, everyone cry about nerfs but if someone ask for buff it brings shitstorm at him.
I totally agree with steve, maybe because hes my roommate.

zapper have you ever played as an archer longer that 5 min a day

Seriously i am getting tired of ninjas trying balance cav, melle telling archers how they should play on battlefield.

whats wrong wit archer and 1h weapon, really tell me?
coz he can kill you?


 
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Jarlek on November 21, 2012, 03:53:57 am
zapper you are 1 big hybrid of everything and you cry because archer wants to have something that doesn't glance every hit.
I don't get why peps are soo against that, everyone cry about nerfs but if someone ask for buff it brings shitstorm at him.
I totally agree with steve, maybe because hes my roommate.

zapper have you ever played as an archer longer that 5 min a day

Seriously i am getting tired of ninjas trying balance cav, melle telling archers how they should play on battlefield.

whats wrong wit archer and 1h weapon, really tell me?
coz he can kill you?
2 gens as archer on my main, all with longbow. Level 1-31 with no respeccing on all of them. One HA alt on 30, one foot archer alt on 30. Problem?

Also, I'm not a big hybrid of everything. At least not right now. Having 120 in one wpf (2h) and 60 in another (pole) is probably something mindblowing to you. Then again, I was stupid enough to get 6 shield skill thinking it would actually help against arrows (lol).

I agree that people who have no experience should shut up. Especially the 2h heroes who's been using a greatsword for almost 3 years now and still whines how everything else is OP and their class is UP, yet manage to kill half a team by their own. You know, just like so many archers do.

But using the "you got no experience in the different classes" argument on me is the biggest mistake you can make. Name a class and I have played it. Usually on my main, a very few only on alts (leveled up from lvl 1). How many people do you know who has gone HC with shield, HT or 1h/2h/pole shielder?

And you are correct that we should buff more, nerf less, but a suggestion like making all bows 1 slot would be such a huge balance change that it needs more thought than "I can't figure out how to pick up arrows, nor drop an empty quiver and pick up a melee weapon, nor change to another bow to get 2 stacks of arrows and a 1 slot sidearm, so I come with this shitty idea without any thought of balance".

To put it this way: A guy with a 1h and a huscarl wants to be better against cav, but instead of changing shield or weapon, he wants all shields to be 1 slot. Fuck how that's gonna change the balance.

Also: there's nothing wrong with an archer and a 1h weapon. That was what I was using all the time when I was an archer. I'm not saying that we should not make it possible. I am saying that it already is. I like how a 1h sidearm can actually kill other people as long as you know how to use it properly. I did it all the time when I was archer, I did it all the time when I was an arbalester last gen, I did it all the time when I was a piker (1h/pole), I did it all the time when I was a mauler (1h/2h), and I'm gonna do it in the future too, when I go a build that can have, should have or must have a 1 slot sidearm. 1h-no shield FTW.

Here's what I think: Hybrids should be better than pure builds. But only because of one thing. One, VERY important limitation: The slot system. I said it months ago, and I'm saying it again: Make the pure builds less effective than the hybrids, but make the hybrids fucked over by the slot system. A pure build, be it archer, 2h or whatever, doesn't need to care about slots (longbow, 2 quivers and 0 slot to block when you run), but a hybrid does. They need to pick up weapons mid battle, reduce their other part (drop a quiver or go down to 1-slot bow), or make due with a shitty one (0-slot).

I want more diversity in slots. Fuck me, make some of the peasant bows 0 slot. Make almost all 2h and poles from warcleaver and english bill 3 slots (buff where needed), make all 1h from Espada and up 2 slot (and buff them to badass level, they fucking need it), make some peasant 2h and polearms 1 slot. We got the slot system, but it needs to be changed more. "Dedicated" 1h, bows and xbows should be 2 slot, "dedicated" 2h and polearms should be 3. Sidearms should be sidearms. Cheap, few slots and mediocre.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Adamar on November 23, 2012, 11:02:49 pm
Just back from EU_4, and I was the only archer in 43 players.

So should we whine, or can the devs see the problem for themselfs for once?
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Dezilagel on November 24, 2012, 02:10:12 pm
Just back from EU_4, and I was the only archer in 43 players.

So should we whine, or can the devs see the problem for themselfs for once?

What problem?
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Bonze on November 24, 2012, 03:34:02 pm
Just back from EU_4, and I was the only archer in 43 players.

So should we whine, or can the devs see the problem for themselfs for once?

Just back from eu1 and i see to many archers and xbows
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Arrowblood on November 24, 2012, 04:21:29 pm
Just back from eu1 and i see to many archers, xbows and bundle of stickss on horses.
fixed
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: justme on November 24, 2012, 05:24:23 pm
Just back from EU_4, and I was the only archer in 43 players.

So should we whine, or can the devs see the problem for themselfs for once?

they are all on eu1, and they are emptiying server pretty often
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: PanPan on November 24, 2012, 05:50:48 pm
Well when I was Archer with a bit of PS (like 3). I still could kill people with my little pickaxe (wich I personally found OP) just block and take your chance to attack back.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on November 27, 2012, 05:59:19 pm
What problem?
Can't you read? He says there was one archer left, this calls for a kiting nerf!
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Adamar on November 27, 2012, 10:39:36 pm
Im all behind a kiting nerf, but not anything else.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Torost on November 28, 2012, 09:53:07 am
The endless nerfery made it unfun .. all the oddball limitations..,very high upkeep,mapalterations no roofs or vantagepoints,noladder, armorrestrictions,wpf,shitty 0slot weps,drawing slow ,running slow, low dmg,scheit accuracy,minimual benefits from looms ( compared to other ranged).... hopefully new players that have no memory of how fun/OP it once was can take over role of archer.

Well it worked. (maybe as intended) I have played mostly dedicated archery from the start. Retired my lvl 32 archer. And now I am a 2hand hero! A pretty bad one that is.. blocking is hard :) So I try to learn the ways of 2hand heroics step by step ,observe and imitate...

NERF THOSE DAMN ARCHERS NAOW!!!! AND WHEN I SAY ARCHERS I DO NOT MEAN CROSSBOWERS!!! CAUSE CROSSBOWERS ARE NOT NEARLY AS ANNOYING AND UNFUN TO PLAY AGAINST AS THEM OP ARCHERS!!!

 :D
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Hekke on December 06, 2012, 02:42:17 am
Accuracy is shit.
Thanks for attention
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Hekke on December 06, 2012, 02:46:03 am
Btw. I was playing archer from time to time, but now it's just silly. I have 136 archery and my crosshair is big as elephant.
Maybe hardcore archers still can kill somebody, but sorry, most of regular players are just fucked with this.
So yeah, great job, congratulations and all this shit for people what nerfed it so much -.-
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Templar_Steevee on December 06, 2012, 10:15:45 pm
I have 136 archery and my crosshair is big as elephant.
If you want to hit thing wich you are aiming at IMO you have to get at least 150 WPF.

Last days I noticed that there are not many archers running around. Finding arrows on the ground is a pretty big problem now.

I also noticed that there are tons of x-bows. Do you noticed that too, or I am just overrating that?
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Tot. on December 08, 2012, 01:53:10 pm
Quote
I am starting to hate even the archers on my own team. They (...) generally take up space.

See, cRPG archers? We are so much more civilized and rational than Chivalry players, we still allow you to take up space and don't yell at you about it.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Rumblood on December 08, 2012, 05:08:32 pm
Archery is OP everywhere? (http://www.chivalrythegame.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7012&sid=89a8cb849ee82c695a5ce4df2f871f6e)

Melee are always elitist narcissists  :lol:

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: El_Infante on January 08, 2013, 12:15:26 am
People whine about kitting archers. I don't know why devs decided to increase arrow weight that was IMHO a stupid idea. Just give archer melee capabilities and they won't run. They don't run because they don't know how to duel&melee. They run because with a fucking pickaxe you can't do shit.

Just increase nº of arrows of each quiver and allow archer to have at least, 1slot decent weapon, like mace or langes messer. I play an arbalest build and, if I can equip a mace and enough bolts to shoot entire rounds, why archers can't? Also, ranged are in the game to kill you, like other classes, and other players should assume that they will die to ranged as they die in hand-to-hand combat.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on January 08, 2013, 12:20:48 am
After last patch archery changed a lot - archers can't kite anymore. And that's good.
Archers are easy to catch nowdays, but thy cant have a serious weapon (taking one or two slots) without getting only one stact of arrows.
Archers can't kite? Funny how when i go near one he just turns around and keeps running just like before, as for being easy to catch, unless you are 15/21 or something I doub't you are going to catch them.


How to give archers possibility to figth in melee? Answer is simple - make all bows one slot.
Archers will still be slow as hell (even slower because of heavier melee weapon), but some of them will figth more instead of running away.
I think it could make game better for all.
Making all bows one slot will do nothing but allow archers to take a third stack of arrows NOT a melee weapon, they know they have the advantage of speed so making bows one slot will just increase their ammo count allowing them to run away more. Only real way to slow them down is increase the weight of arrows or their bows.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Jarlek on January 08, 2013, 01:14:50 am
People whine about kitting archers. I don't know why devs decided to increase arrow weight that was IMHO a stupid idea. Just give archer melee capabilities and they won't run.
Devs didn't take away archers ability to melee. Archers did, when they refuse to take PS.

They don't run because they don't know how to duel&melee. They run because with a fucking pickaxe you can't do shit.
They run because they don't WANT to duel&melee. They run because they decided themsevles to take an extra quiver and a pickaxe instead of a 1slot weapon. Nobody forced them to take 2 quivers. I always take some PS when I'm an archer. I'm not the only one.

Just increase nº of arrows of each quiver and allow archer to have at least, 1slot decent weapon, like mace or langes messer. I play an arbalest build and, if I can equip a mace and enough bolts to shoot entire rounds, why archers can't?
15 arrows (17 when +3) isn't enough? Don't spam arrows. Still think you need 30 (34) arrows? Take a 1 slot bow. As you said, xbowmen are capable to take a 1 slot weapon with them, why doesn't archers do it? Because it's just easier for them to run instead. Why bother fighting when you can just run and shoot?

Also, ranged are in the game to kill you, like other classes, and other players should assume that they will die to ranged as they die in hand-to-hand combat.
Ofc ranged is there to kill you. But why should ranged be able to kill people at range when they can deny people killing them in melee by simply running? An archer (not gonna name him) once said to me "I don't like to melee, that's why I run." I replied "well, I don't like getting shot. Why should you be able to ignore me, but not the other way around?". If you want to shoot, you can't run. If you don't want to melee, don't whine when people won't let you shoot.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: El_Infante on January 08, 2013, 01:49:27 am
I disagree. In the old crpg times, where every archer had melee weapons I don't remember too much kite like nowadays. And 15 arrows is not enough for an archer. Accuracy is far from being accurate, and to be a decent archer you have to spend a lot of skill points in WM and PD, thing that an arbalester don't need.

I encourage archers to have melee skills, but give them decent weapons to fight with.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Tibe on January 08, 2013, 06:29:04 am
I use a longbow and melee with a 1h. Works fine imo. Hey its totally the archers own choice if they want more wpf in archery or not. Lets just say I get to eat shit in dedicated 100% archer vs my hybrid archer fights, but mainly im not doing to badly.  Got loomed bow and arrows.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Shaksie on January 08, 2013, 08:42:04 am
They don't run because they don't know how to duel&melee
Wrong.
They run because they are archers, they are archers because they want to be.
They do not want to be a melee class so why would you give them melee capabilities?
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Mr_Oujamaflip on January 08, 2013, 03:44:38 pm
I dont think this is a problem with archers this is an issue with crossbows and the crappy wpf curve. easiest fix is to add the same wpf nerf that archers get over a certain weight to crossbows
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on January 10, 2013, 06:07:43 pm
Wrong.
They run because they are archers, they are archers because they want to be.
They do not want to be a melee class so why would you give them melee capabilities?

Agrees ^

Most archers will only melee because they are trapped. It has little to do with their inability to melee, they could easily generate a hybrid char and choose not too.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Penitent on January 11, 2013, 11:20:48 pm
Archers are fine right now.  There's plenty if choice and diversity to make different archer builds/equipment load outs and they are all fairly balanced.

I play an 18/18 (18/21 at lv 31) with 6 PS, a rus bow, and 1 stack of arrows.  I am too heavy to really kite effectively due to quiver weight.  I have no problem getting into a melee fight if I have to.  Still, if I have the chance to take a few steps back and pull out my bow again because the enemy is distracted, I prefer that.

I have only 17 arrows, but I'm good at scavenging them.  If I run out, guess what?  I drop my bow and wade into melee!  :). Even if I have less wpf and armor than the other brawlers, I hold my own.

Everything seems to be I order here.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Tigero on January 12, 2013, 11:11:35 am
Force players to carry melee weapon, too many 2xbow 2 bolts HX bitches who when their horse is crippled start running around and being a douche. Same goes for throwers and HA and kiting full agi my old friendchers...
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on January 13, 2013, 08:27:38 pm
and btw a stack of bodkins weighs about the same as a great maul, so i think added dmg or knock down should substitute that weight gain just fine.

So what you mean to say is that archers should be able to slap people with their incredibly dense quivers? Or that arrows should have knockdown?

It would be interesting to see knockdown added for throwing, at least. Getting hit with a hefty axe or a 6 foot long spear would probably throw you off balance.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on January 14, 2013, 06:20:20 pm
So what you mean to say is that archers should be able to slap people with their incredibly dense quivers? Or that arrows should have knockdown?

It would be interesting to see knockdown added for throwing, at least. Getting hit with a hefty axe or a 6 foot long spear would probably throw you off balance.

It already does, you do the ranged hit dance.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on January 14, 2013, 08:20:56 pm
Just imagine clonking someone on the shoulder with a thrown hammer and they fall flat on their feet... ass...

why did i say feet. that would mean they are standing.  lol
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Leshma on January 14, 2013, 08:40:38 pm
Archery nowadays is the same as always, too damn many of them.
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: justme on January 15, 2013, 11:16:25 am
i stop dodging arrows because  they cant miss me..
Title: Re: Archery nowdays
Post by: Templar_Steevee on January 15, 2013, 02:38:04 pm
i stop dodging arrows because  they cant miss me..

archers are just more skilled than about 1 year ago, and you forced archers to increase their skill during constantly nerfing

With dodging arrows is almost like with manual blocking 1 enemy is easy to block, 2 and more is harder

Making all bows one slot will do nothing but allow archers to take a third stack of arrows NOT a melee weapon, they know they have the advantage of speed so making bows one slot will just increase their ammo count allowing them to run away more.

hmmm... advantage of speed... with 3 quivers... just think a bit before you will write something 3 quivers for ex tatar arrows is 24 weigth+ bow weigth...
ow, one more thing 3quivers+1bow are 4 slots in total, so theres no place to take a melee weapon.

Archers can't kite? Funny how when i go near one he just turns around and keeps running just like before, as for being easy to catch, unless you are 15/21


only hi lvl archers are able to run. Guys with 6 ath are  able to catch an archer, but think a bit, not just wildly charge a group of archers...

Archery nowadays is the same as always, too damn many of them.

I can't agree. Archery changed a lot since i started to play this game. Devs make few nice changes like for eg. different dmg on different body parts or making archer slower when bow is drawn. Kind of dmg depends on arrow type, not bow.
Bows are slower and missle speed is lower.
But also some chenges pissed me off a bit like it's almost impossible to headshot shielder hiding behind a shield even if he is using shitty small shields like buckler... Force fields on shields on horseback...

In total archery is a bit harder than in times i started to play, it needs more skill from an archer and learn him to choose good positions on battlefield because nowdays everyone want to kill an archer...