Archery nowdays

[Jarlek]

Tenne I agree with you, but you are more like hibrid, than pure archer. I know your gameplay.

You mean he doesn't run when one or two enemies gets close? That's being an archer. Running is being a craven.

Picking arrows is possible only when enemies lets you to do it.

Because when you need to pick up new arrows is when the enemy is right next to you? Sorry, but you fail at planning.

On open fields arrows are landing most of times far away from you and if you will try to pick them up cav will just rape your ass.
when emenies are pushing you have no time to pick up arrows because of "bug" with picking them up with dropping something.

Tenne already wrote about the bug. When I first went archer it took me one round to realize that I would just have to drop the bow first, then pick up the new quiver/arrow type. It's really that simple.

And yes, lots of arrows lands in the open field, but not all. What about the ones the enemy ranged is shooting towards you? No enemy ranged shooting at you? Great! But you will have to relocate to get new arrows then. Don't spam the ones you have.

When on server is more than 20 vs 20 players 20 arrows is not enougth and when server is more populated even with 2 quivers I sometimes have to pick up arrows (if I'll survive that long).

If 20 arrows aren't enough for you when you got 20 enemies, then you are doing something wrong. That's 1 arrow for each and every single enemy. Most of those enemies will (or should) be dealt with by your allies, you are not supposed to shoot and kill every single enemy. Even if you miss half the time, that still means you got 10 shots in. If you can't do enough damage with 10 arrows, then sorry, you fail. And on big battles you got more archers around = more arrows to pick up.

Anyway it would be really nice if 6PD archers coud have a 1 slot weapon, not a 0 slot piece of wood and metal that can be used most of times only for blocking.

6PD archers can have a 1 slot weapon. PD does not affect the slot system. I'm gonna assume that you are not a complete retard and assume you meant 6PD bows. Here's an outfit: Long Bow (2), Bodkins (1), Mace (1), Khyber Knife (0). Voila! A 1 slot melee weapon. What about another one? Long Bow (2), Bodkins (1), Italian Sword (1), Buckler (0). Holy shit! You even can have a shield with a 2 slot bow!

Alternatively, if you REALLY need to have 2 stack of arrows. When you shot one quiver empty: drop it. Press G (default), pick up your bow and the quiver with something. This takes maximum 3 seconds. Then pick up a decent 1 slot weapon around. Most of the time it will even be a loomed one. Holy cow-shit, I must be a genius to realize this! Master tactician in the making!

Many ppl will say that  for ex. migthy hand axe (i got one ) is strong enougth to kill some players. That's true, even I killed someone with that, but afler last patch it's almost impossible to hit most of ppl because of moving speed nerf for archers. If some guys just thing and keep a proper distance, they can just spam without bothering of getting hit.

So you can't melee properly with a short weapon because of low movement speed? That's ok, short weapons and slow movement is a bad combo. But how to make yourself move faster? The bow and arrows are slowing you down too much!

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Press it before an enemy gets close. Then switch to melee.

Here's also another tip I learned from when I went archer. This really helps against the 2nd worst kiters in the game, Greatsword and Glaive users. Damn those people like their S keys and keeping as big a distance in melee as they can. You know what I did when they started S-key heroing when I tried to fight them with my sidearm? I pulled out my bow and shot them. That simple. They s-keyed so hard I could unsheath my Longbow, draw it, and fire an arrow in their chest. Teached most of them to not backpedal so much. Ofc, if you dropped your bow, this kinda sucks, but if they are s-keying all over the place it shouldn't be too hard to reach the place you dropped it.

[Templar_Steevee]

At the begining I have one question. How long you were archer and did you play as an after last patch?

I hate to write long posts with quoting, so Ill do it by numering, so...

1) Tenne is not a pure archer, he is a 2h archer hybrid

2) Do you know anything about getting on positions? Archers often go to the top of hills and other hard to get places to ptotect themselves from cav.

3) No enemies shooting to you? Yes. Why? I shot them down, or they were killed by my teammates. Change my good position to pick up few arrows and let enemies hiding and waiting i go for ex. behing bulding. Yea, that just great plan!
And about spamming: Archers are shooting when they see enemy in goot to shot distance when they able to hit him, anyeway, he will come and kill archer.
I think i have to remind you that archers are range units made for killing ppl from distance, not shotgun shooting.

4) Sorry, but I wrote "more than 20" please red more cearfully next time.
 Your theory about picking up arrows is not so bad, but did you ever try after patch to go alone on hi populated server to fing some arrows? I don't think so.
 And ok, more archers= more arrows to pick up, but also more enemies are able to shot you when you try to pick up some arrows.
 I also didn't mention about x-bows users. They are just waiting for lonley archers walking around battlefield looking for arrows. Cav also love single archers      without protection.

5) Yea, I mean 6 pd bows. I already said, that it's possible to go around with one quiver of arrows. Your option with shield is not for Pure Archer, but for hybrid, and I am writing all the time about pure archers.
And your "tactic" about picking up weapons from the ground is failing in most of situatons. Do you knoe that archer is a 2nd line or even further away and it's just impossible to pick up a weapon in a middle of figth?
I also don't know why I can't carry with me some 1h sword instead of my hand axe? They have the same weigth: 1. And they are also more comfortable for carring than hand axe.

Here's also another tip I learned from when I went archer. This really helps against the 2nd worst kiters in the game, Greatsword and Glaive users. Damn those people like their S keys and keeping as big a distance in melee as they can. You know what I did when they started S-key heroing when I tried to fight them with my sidearm? I pulled out my bow and shot them. That simple. They s-keyed so hard I could unsheath my Longbow, draw it, and fire an arrow in their chest. Teached most of them to not backpedal so much.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!! That's the biggest shit I read on this forum for ages.
I just checked how fas i can shoot. With mw long bow and 163 wpf in archery I can shoot arrow in a little above 3 sec without unsheating my bow (I made tests on eu3 standing still and taking times after every shoot).
In 3 sec agi s-gamer will easily catch me and chop in pieces. Your option was possible only before last patch. Now it's the best way to be dead ;)

[Adamar]

Stop trying to justify the current ranged status, the weight increase is a nerf. You can't just drop the bow when the enemy comes for you, because then they'll likely have control of that area and you're not an archer anymore. Moving slowly gets you killed in melee, regardless of personal skill, whatever crappy melee build an archer has, it's now simply harder, if your melee oriented enemy who can swing his greatsword faster than you can swing a simple mace is also able to run around you while he does it.
So carrying a proper/heavier weapon, or even armor for that matter is still pointless and ALL archers move slower. Obvious favouritism is obvious, especially since these nerfs usually come out during some severe whinning storm fueled by noobs and by spoiled, self serving and poor excuses of gamers who should never be taken seriously.

[Templar_Steevee]

I get accostumed to last patch archery status. It's normal that archers are nerfing all the time. I get accostumed to it

I just want to show ppl that archers using 2 slot bow and 2 quivers of arrows should have at least possibility to have a normal side weapon, not a piece of wood and metal wich can be used only for blocking.

Times when archers got +200 wpf in archery and also over 100 in melee wpf will never come back, so giving archers possibility to take some normal weapon won't be so hard..

[To Kill A Dead Horse]

buff throwing

[Tennenoth]

I may be a Hybrid archer, but that doesn't make all that much of a difference. I'm trying to help here, I have more experience as an archer than most people in this game but I like to think that I can still stay detached and argue both sides and see why things have happened, what effect they have and how to adjust or counter these changes.

Sure you can't run as fast, sure that knocks you around a little bit but if you can't melee even slightly, then you're not playing this game properly. You have the ability, you have the chance to class, even if you are a higher level, and even if you're stuck on a class, you're not going to be completely crap in melee. You don't even need to get caught in melee either! If you're a high athetics archer, you'll still run reasonably quickly.
I'm sure with 7 athletics and two stacks of arrows, you can outrun a 4/5 athletics lightly armoured infantryman, if they're heavier, I expect you could probably match a 6 athletics player. That 100% needs testing, so don't take that as gospel or anything like that but I haven't had too much of a problem with my speed, despite only using one stack of arrows, it really isn't difficult to get more arrows either.

I rarely find myself without arrows because I can easily find them on the battlefield, you really can't argue that "players will kill you while you search for arrows" because they can kill you at any point, you're not that much more of a target if you're looking for arrows, you're not completely defenceless, you should be aware no matter the situation and you'll make sure that you know where you're heading, all of the possible attack positions, the position of your enemies, how fast they can move, the location of the ranged etc etc. All that information you'll pick up on near-automatically, particularly if you've been playing the game for long enough, it's just something that happens through playing, as you become more experienced.

Everyone in this game makes calculated risks, we practically program our brains. When I play, those come out as percentages and depending on how imperative it is for me to do something, I either risk it, or I don't. I want to explain that in a far too complicated way using my University "Neural Networks and Genetic Algorithms" course but I fear I'll just confuse myself!
Now, I might risk something that you wouldn't, because of my skill set, because of my different experience, or because I'm just more Gung-Ho than you are, but you can still take those risks and learn yourself. Granted you might find that you can't quite do it, and you'll adjust what you try and do but you'll get to a nice balance between success and failure.

The things I am talking about are do-able, there isn't a need to change the way archers work or give them any more melee capabilities because they're there, and I stand by that, even if I was level 33 with 174 archery and nothing in 2 handed, I would stand by it because I would just make sure that I steer clear of bad situations. I know it's all well and good me saying that, but you're going to get caught out, you're going to have times when you can do that but you did before hand, you will continue to have them happen and so on and so forth.

I blabbered quite a bit because I was distracted by my music. I apologise if this didn't make sense, it probably doesn't.

[Adamar]

What you're saying is, if I have 3 athlectics and 6 ps, I'll need to switch - 6 athlectics 3 ps to be as weak as I already was, but with less damage output. However you look at it it's a nerf that favours your opponent in melee amongst other things. Not at all fair.

[Casimir]

Wait your implying people think in cRPG?

This thread just got rediculous.

[Tennenoth]

What you're saying is, if I have 3 athlectics and 6 ps, I'll need to switch - 6 athlectics 3 ps to be as weak as I already was, but with less damage output. However you look at it it's a nerf that favours your opponent in melee amongst other things. Not at all fair.

If that was aimed at what I wrote, then I have no idea what part of what I wrote made you think that is what I am saying... I didn't even mention PS. Sorry, you're going to have to clarify whether or not you were or there was something else that I missed. I'm completely confused.

Look at this way, and I know it sucks but we have ranged, that means we can't be good at everthing. We chose to use bows and therefore we can't melee properly, we're at a disadvantage there before and after this patch. The patch was put in place to stop archers from kiting everything because that annoyed the "two handed hero" this game has spawned, I can understand their grievances, they can't hit something that can hit them, the same type of thing about how I get pissed off with cavalry and their bump-stab/slash, you can't block that, you can't get out of the way, you're stuffed but at the end of the day, it's something that is in the game and there will always be those cases.
Now, with archery kiting, it was reduced, not eradicated, it is still possible it's just harder, you're slower but that doesn't change the game all that much.

You can still carry a melee weapon for the times that you get caught up close, there are always going to be times this happens, more so now and there is always the chance that you win regardless of how small. I agree that it's a little off, I agree it once again hurts our characters but I do not agree with giving archers more of an ability to melee because the options are already there. You chose before the patch to run instead of standing and fighting, you can still do that, just not as effectively, I chose to take up arms and defend myself, I can still do that, just not as effectively.
That's what this comes down to, you're just as good, your class just isn't quite as good, but only by a small margin. I run as fast now as I did while wearing medium armour (The same as if I wore a Heavy Aketon & mail gauntlets on top of my current gear, 7 weight increase) and you'll run as if you're wearing 14 more weight, therefore the equivalent of wearing a Heavy Kuyak. Worst case scenario with two stacks of arrows adding 10 weight each, you'll be carrying Black Armour (new). That's a lot, yes, but if you're really hurting over that, drop a stack of arrows. With all due respect, I have said all I can say, more than I should have said and I'm beginning to tire of this "discussion" since it's plain to me that no matter what I say, it won't change everyones feelings on the matter. I've tried to get a few options and views and I can't ramble about this any longer.

Realistically it's total bollocks, but game wise, it brings us all down to a faster moving game (just not for your legs!) and if it stops whine from the majority of people, I'm more than happy to turn around and flash the two fingered salute then continue to kick their arses at their own game while at a disadvantage. That's my take on things, I'll keep on plucking yew at any rate.

[Havoco]

This latest patch I can agree with, I felt it was needed, but it just saddens me that pure archery is basically endangered since many archers will now be spending points in PS and maybe IF just to be able to have a chance when they inevitably get run down.

Personally I find that after playing melee a few gens (1 as 2h/Xbow, 1as shielder, and 1 as pikeman) and from playing it 2 years ago, i felt its not only that the general melee speed of weapons in this game has slowed down, but the melee meta game has slowed down as well. the melee mobs used to be this CHARGE BANZAI YYAUAYYSYAYSYA. now its 2 mobs standing on either side waiting for the melee to breakdown or someone to flank a side. Skilled melee players block more, feint more, hold more, use a lot more footwork.All these things make the fight longer.

What defines a skilled archer? Good positioning, accuracy, knowing weak spots on shields, awareness( let's face it, archers have to be fucking paranoid, more so than melee). These things simply make more decisive play.

TL;DR version: the melee meta game has slowed down and the ranged meta game has sped up.

This is why I feel ranged have been getting so many nerfs. Instead they seriously need to speed up the melee game, through a general melee weapon speed increase or possibly adding a crush through for every weapon on every direction which would be based off speed bonus and str.

[Templar_Steevee]

Tenne I'm sorry if I insulted you in any way. I admire your skills and experience in this game.
IMO I'm also a preet old c-rpg player. I remember times of Appe, when website looks like some 6 old years kid made it.

I remeber you are almost all the time using some side 2h weapon. Our playstyles are just different and that makes that we thinks about this game in a bit other way, because I'm a 2 stacks of arrows longbow user since first gen.

I asked in first post to give archers more posibility in melee, because lots of ppl were writing about that many times in the past, but now it would be more helpfull than any other time.

I think it will ends like always: NO for any "buffing" for archers.
IMO at present archery dmg and accuracy is on preety good lvl.

In this game many ppl (mostly 2h and polearm hero) philosophy is: "Nerf archers, they still can shoot", so I'm not expecting that something will be changed to help a bit  archers.

[Tennenoth]

I understand where you're coming from Steevee, and don't worry about insulting me, my ego can handle it! ;)

Throughout my time here, yes, as I have said and you just did, I have always carried a melee weapon but that doesn't always mean that I have had the skills to use it properly. Granted I have never really run away unless the odds are just too badly stacked in my enemies favour, for example, if I can't out melee them, if there are too many of them or if I'm caught out and can see things turning ugly quickly etc but I still have the core of archery at my fingertips. I've always looked at my build as being a level 30 archer and 20 melee, I have 160 wpf in archery which allows me to be accurate enough and I can do reasonable damage due to using a longbow, which I have always used other than that time when it was too slow causing it to be broken, I even did some busy work to help get that sorted!

Anyway, as I say, the core of the gameplay is there, the major difference is that I have used my level advantage to lessen my melee disadvantage. Now, I know that people, such as yourself, have used that level advantage to increase their ranged advantage but that doesn't mean that you don't have the options of melee already there. People have said that you don't need wpf to fight effectively in melee, it's true to some extent until you come up against the extremely fast katana/heavy bastard sword/scimitar blokes who are just able to keep the pressure on you without letting you reture fire and I must say, having played native more frequently to see the differences, the melee is much faster in cRPG than it is over there.

As I said in my last post, I've laid out the options that I see and it's perfectly viable for any archer to use a melee weapon, even if you don't equip one and you look around the battlefield for something to swing, it's still there. Chances are, the people who catch you will still be the lighter armoured players, so you'll still be able to hurt them with no stats, let's face it, if a tin can catches you and you didn't allow it to happen, you're probably not good at kiting in the first place! ;)

Anyway, I have to be going now so I'll cut this a little short.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

In this game many ppl (mostly 2h and polearm hero) philosophy is: "Nerf archers, they still can shoot, run away, shoot again, then run, then shot, then repeat.", so I'm not expecting that something will be changed to help a bit  archers.

Also, it's not just 2hs and polearms, it's everyone who isn't an archer, shielders can't even fight archers... you say "rock, paper, scissors" as your argument for why you should beat 2h and polearm even if they're masters at dodging and dodge 15+ arrows, yet archers are the only class that can truly hard counter another (real) playstyle completely, and no class can actually even soft counter archers, at best they can end up somewhat even (or worse for the none-archer) against each other (see cav or throwing or xbowing vs aware decent archers). Kiting needs to go, the arrow weight is not extreme enough, while it makes it so light armored infantry guys (talking slightly above cloth level and with no shied here, if they had a shield they'd be to hard slowed down) can catch archers with the same level of athletics, truth be told the nerf only made them kite slightly longer.

[Rebelyell]

zapper you are 1 big hybrid of everything and you cry because archer wants to have something that doesn't glance every hit.
I don't get why peps are soo against that, everyone cry about nerfs but if someone ask for buff it brings shitstorm at him.
I totally agree with steve, maybe because hes my roommate.

zapper have you ever played as an archer longer that 5 min a day

Seriously i am getting tired of ninjas trying balance cav, melle telling archers how they should play on battlefield.

whats wrong wit archer and 1h weapon, really tell me?
coz he can kill you?


 

[Jarlek]

zapper you are 1 big hybrid of everything and you cry because archer wants to have something that doesn't glance every hit.
I don't get why peps are soo against that, everyone cry about nerfs but if someone ask for buff it brings shitstorm at him.
I totally agree with steve, maybe because hes my roommate.

zapper have you ever played as an archer longer that 5 min a day

Seriously i am getting tired of ninjas trying balance cav, melle telling archers how they should play on battlefield.

whats wrong wit archer and 1h weapon, really tell me?
coz he can kill you?

2 gens as archer on my main, all with longbow. Level 1-31 with no respeccing on all of them. One HA alt on 30, one foot archer alt on 30. Problem?

Also, I'm not a big hybrid of everything. At least not right now. Having 120 in one wpf (2h) and 60 in another (pole) is probably something mindblowing to you. Then again, I was stupid enough to get 6 shield skill thinking it would actually help against arrows (lol).

I agree that people who have no experience should shut up. Especially the 2h heroes who's been using a greatsword for almost 3 years now and still whines how everything else is OP and their class is UP, yet manage to kill half a team by their own. You know, just like so many archers do.

But using the "you got no experience in the different classes" argument on me is the biggest mistake you can make. Name a class and I have played it. Usually on my main, a very few only on alts (leveled up from lvl 1). How many people do you know who has gone HC with shield, HT or 1h/2h/pole shielder?

And you are correct that we should buff more, nerf less, but a suggestion like making all bows 1 slot would be such a huge balance change that it needs more thought than "I can't figure out how to pick up arrows, nor drop an empty quiver and pick up a melee weapon, nor change to another bow to get 2 stacks of arrows and a 1 slot sidearm, so I come with this shitty idea without any thought of balance".

To put it this way: A guy with a 1h and a huscarl wants to be better against cav, but instead of changing shield or weapon, he wants all shields to be 1 slot. Fuck how that's gonna change the balance.

Also: there's nothing wrong with an archer and a 1h weapon. That was what I was using all the time when I was an archer. I'm not saying that we should not make it possible. I am saying that it already is. I like how a 1h sidearm can actually kill other people as long as you know how to use it properly. I did it all the time when I was archer, I did it all the time when I was an arbalester last gen, I did it all the time when I was a piker (1h/pole), I did it all the time when I was a mauler (1h/2h), and I'm gonna do it in the future too, when I go a build that can have, should have or must have a 1 slot sidearm. 1h-no shield FTW.

Here's what I think: Hybrids should be better than pure builds. But only because of one thing. One, VERY important limitation: The slot system. I said it months ago, and I'm saying it again: Make the pure builds less effective than the hybrids, but make the hybrids fucked over by the slot system. A pure build, be it archer, 2h or whatever, doesn't need to care about slots (longbow, 2 quivers and 0 slot to block when you run), but a hybrid does. They need to pick up weapons mid battle, reduce their other part (drop a quiver or go down to 1-slot bow), or make due with a shitty one (0-slot).

I want more diversity in slots. Fuck me, make some of the peasant bows 0 slot. Make almost all 2h and poles from warcleaver and english bill 3 slots (buff where needed), make all 1h from Espada and up 2 slot (and buff them to badass level, they fucking need it), make some peasant 2h and polearms 1 slot. We got the slot system, but it needs to be changed more. "Dedicated" 1h, bows and xbows should be 2 slot, "dedicated" 2h and polearms should be 3. Sidearms should be sidearms. Cheap, few slots and mediocre.