cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Pejlaen on November 08, 2012, 08:04:30 pm

Title: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Pejlaen on November 08, 2012, 08:04:30 pm
Since the last patch, Archery just feels weird. I dont know if any game-mechanics were tweaked with, or if just stats were changed on certain items. But I'm using the Rus bow, and it got its missile speed value reduced. Ofc this will affect your aim, and it will  take time to re-adjust your aim to cope with the changes, but in addition it feels very buggy ever since, plainly speaking. Arrows flies straight through people not moving, it's happened at least 4 times that I shoot someone in the Belly/Arms/legs and it registers as a headshot. I didnt experience these problems before the patch at all.

Also, I seriously think that the missile speed should be raised to it's former value. Even if the bugs dont have anything to do with it, it's just meeh to have trained accuracy, and now having to start over with it, the change was really almost that big. I highly doubt that it will affect results on servers, it will only re-add the fun in shooting. Atm, it feels as if you're shooting buggy logs.

Thank you if you read :)

Edit: I mean the speed the missiles had before THIS recent patch. not referring to the native speed.
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: wayyyyyne on November 08, 2012, 08:47:14 pm
What about making missile speed str/PD dependant? That would actually make sense and encourage more archers to stack str in favour of agility (given that that no wpf reduction for 13 pd archers is already fixed ofc).
I'm pretty sure it can be done since we already got the same thing for rageball just with a ball instead of projectiles.

Other than that it would also make sense if archers got a little extra speed for their arrows just as a compensation for the recent nerf.
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Aku_Ankka on November 08, 2012, 08:50:26 pm
Quote from: wayyyyyne on November 08, 2012, 08:47:14 pm
What about making missile speed str/PD dependant? That would actually make sense and encourage more archers to stack str in favour of agility (given that that no wpf reduction for 13 pd archers is already fixed ofc).
I'm pretty sure it can be done since we already got the same thing for rageball just with a ball instead of projectiles.

Other than that it would also make sense if archers got a little extra speed for their arrows just as a compensation for the recent nerf.
As far as I'm concerned, PD already increases missile speed.
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Blackbow on November 08, 2012, 09:25:54 pm
since begining i say ghost arrows effect is caused by decreasing missile speed !!
that mean lot of arrows passing through bodies !!!
it's fucking boring !!!

imo best way to balance archers is :
decrease body dmg ( maybe -30 or -20 %)
keep head shot dmg
change missile speed like in old times
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: GanForr on November 08, 2012, 09:33:04 pm
Quote from: Pejlaen on November 08, 2012, 08:04:30 pm
Ofc this will affect your aim, and it will  take time to re-adjust your aim to cope with the changes, but in addition it feels very buggy ever since, plainly speaking. Arrows flies straight through people not moving, it's happened at least 4 times that I shoot someone in the Belly/Arms/legs and it registers as a headshot.

So you are telling me that the headshots I'm getting in these are normal bodyshot? I'm awful :cry:

By the way, i didnt notice any change after the patches,and i use an arbalest(but i even don't know if arba statistics changed). Now it seems that i headshoot more easily, but i dont know if it's me or the bug  :mrgreen:.
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Boss_Awesome on November 08, 2012, 10:04:26 pm
I hate it when they reduce missile speed.  It feels like I am slinging wet noodles instead of firing arrows.  I swear my arrows are going through people somtimes after the patch, but perhaps i just suck.
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Kafein on November 08, 2012, 10:18:10 pm
Reasonable projectile speed is the only thing that keeps us away from a game in which dodging is completely useless, unlike now, being only borderline useless.

Ranged units are supposed to fire in a way that maximises their chances of hitting an enemy, because even though they hurt a lot, the main problem with real bows was the accuracy. Shooting in groups of enemies is what archery is meant to be about. not headshotting isolated targets at will. This is not a legolas sim.
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Adamar on November 09, 2012, 12:42:40 am
Being an archer is what's useless considering the lack of teamplay and the ammount of 2handed heroes comming at you, dodging everything and making your build useless. Archery has almost entirely been removed from the battle servers. There was no whine or threats, the players just realized how shitty their situation was and either changed or GTXed. The desired effect by many such as Kafein.

Now that dodging is easier and none will couver your ass, where do we stand?
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Boss_Awesome on November 09, 2012, 01:26:41 am
Quote from: Kafein on November 08, 2012, 10:18:10 pm
Reasonable projectile speed is the only thing that keeps us away from a game in which dodging is completely useless, unlike now, being only borderline useless.

Ranged units are supposed to fire in a way that maximises their chances of hitting an enemy, because even though they hurt a lot, the main problem with real bows was the accuracy. Shooting in groups of enemies is what archery is meant to be about. not headshotting isolated targets at will. This is not a legolas sim.

Why can't we have Legolas equivilent heroes?  We have loads of two hand heroes that run around cutting down entire armies.  Or we have cav that are even worse.   Dodging is extremely effective as is, because it's like dodging beach ball speed projectiles.  Archer duels are laughable affairs where no one gets hit EVER until they take a risk going for a kill shot.  Two archers can dodge each other indefinately if they focus on defense, even at relatively close range.   As is, only extremely pro archers can ever hope to get valor or top the kill board.   I'm tired of slinging noodles, I would rather have the crosshairs expand more to decrease accuracy but have the missiles actually travel realistically. 
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Paul on November 09, 2012, 08:25:59 am
What are "realistic" missile velocities for example for the longbow in your opinion? If I remember correctly it's 60-70m/s(at 6-10 PD) ingame at the moment.
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Kafein on November 09, 2012, 10:58:16 am
Quote from: Paul on November 09, 2012, 08:25:59 am
What are "realistic" missile velocities for example for the longbow in your opinion? If I remember correctly it's 60-70m/s(at 6-10 PD) ingame at the moment.

Different speeds in the game are mutually dependent. For example, characters can turn while sprinting very fast without even slowing down. Yet the sprint itself isn't very fast, it just looks fast because animations make us run like in benny hill. I don't know what are the realistic values for the speed of an arrow released by this or that bow, but I'm quite sure putting them as is is not coherent with other speeds in the game.

Then again, balance over realism. Even though personally I think that out of multiple balanced solutions, we should try to reach the most realistic one.
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Tzar on November 09, 2012, 03:27:31 pm
Just remove archery from the game  :lol:
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Arrowblood on November 09, 2012, 03:38:06 pm
Quote from: Tzar on November 09, 2012, 03:27:31 pm
Just remove archery from the game  :lol:
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Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: BattalGazi on November 09, 2012, 03:58:43 pm
It is really frustrating to see your arrows go through people, please revert what you have done to archery mechanics. My accuracy dropped dramatically after the recent patches, I cannot shoot people even in the close ranges just because of this ghost effect. Please let us have our part of the fun in this game again.

Cheers,
BattalGazi
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Grumbs on November 09, 2012, 05:57:25 pm
Why would you want to make ranged even easier? This is not supposed to be a bog standard FPS game..If this game was released without its decent melee it would have died a death shortly after release
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Nordwolf on November 09, 2012, 06:08:07 pm
Quote from: Kafein on November 08, 2012, 10:18:10 pm
Reasonable projectile speed is the only thing that keeps us away from a game in which dodging is completely useless, unlike now, being only borderline useless.

Ranged units are supposed to fire in a way that maximises their chances of hitting an enemy, because even though they hurt a lot, the main problem with real bows was the accuracy. Shooting in groups of enemies is what archery is meant to be about. not headshotting isolated targets at will. This is not a legolas sim.

Best longbowmen could target a coin in 60 meters. Of course by best in cRPG I mean 27 agi with 9 wm or so, but 7 wm should be enough to hit an apple in 20-30 meters.
Keep archery accuracy as it is now. And missile speed, don't force people to readjust/relearn how they play.
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Kafein on November 09, 2012, 06:16:40 pm
Quote from: Nordwolf on November 09, 2012, 06:08:07 pm
Best longbowmen could target a coin in 60 meters. Of course by best in cRPG I mean 27 agi with 9 wm or so, but 7 wm should be enough to hit an apple in 20-30 meters.
Keep archery accuracy as it is now. And missile speed, don't force people to readjust/relearn how they play.

Not all the 50 archers on the battle server will be "the best" of their time, especially when half of them will be dead at the end.
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Okkam on November 09, 2012, 06:58:45 pm
Quote from: Paul on November 09, 2012, 08:25:59 am
What are "realistic" missile velocities for example for the longbow in your opinion? If I remember correctly it's 60-70m/s(at 6-10 PD) ingame at the moment.

Ask this fella about ''realistic'' air friction. Let's laugh a little.

Anyway it's last breath's time of this mode.
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Paul on November 09, 2012, 10:33:17 pm
What do you want to know about realistic air friction?

Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Boss_Awesome on November 09, 2012, 10:35:44 pm
Quote from: Paul on November 09, 2012, 10:33:17 pm
What do you want to know about realistic air friction?

Why does it make high power draw useless?
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Kafein on November 09, 2012, 10:43:15 pm
Quote from: Boss_Awesome on November 09, 2012, 10:35:44 pm
Why does it make high power draw useless?

Air opposes a stronger resistance to objects travelling at greater speeds, slowing them down faster than objects travelling at lower speeds.


That's also why travelling the same distance in car will consume more gaz if you go faster.


Finally, it doesn't make high PD useless.
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Boss_Awesome on November 09, 2012, 11:05:57 pm
Quote from: Kafein on November 09, 2012, 10:43:15 pm
Air opposes a stronger resistance to objects travelling at greater speeds, slowing them down faster than objects travelling at lower speeds.


That's also why travelling the same distance in car will consume more gaz if you go faster.


Finally, it doesn't make high PD useless.

Since things may have changed in the latest patch (and we don't get patch notes) I may be a little bit off but air friction is the reason why anything above PD6 was generally considered useless.  PD above that just didn't add very much damage due to the effects of air friction at longer ranges.  This was the conclusion of some testing done by Shik.  Since Shik was involved in the latest patch it is possible that this has been addressed, but it hasn't felt too significant to me testing different builds.  Even the PD13 build seemed to be more about accuracy than actual damage dealing. 
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Uumdi on November 09, 2012, 11:27:30 pm
missile speeds are fine, as long as the projectile hits the target.  I experienced a bit, but specced out of archer before really fighting the issue too hard.  It looks like the projectile is hitting the target on the screen, but a hit doesn't register - like playing GunZ: The Duel or something, haha. 

I don't know though, every new patch, something feels different, but it might just be placebo.  That's what I kept telling myself anyway.  I heard reports of people getting headshots when they hit the body, body shots when they hit the head, and mostly instances where the projectile just phased through.  It'd be an interesting and noble project for somebody to catch it on fraps though.
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Adamar on November 10, 2012, 12:15:09 am
Quote from: Grumbs on November 09, 2012, 05:57:25 pm
Why would you want to make ranged even easier? This is not supposed to be a bog standard FPS game..If this game was released without its decent melee it would have died a death shortly after release

From the moment you can collect a lot more kills as a melee fighter or cav(has been the case for a very long time), you know archery is way too hard. That is, if you're not a biased melee elitist.
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Tzar on November 10, 2012, 12:29:21 am
BUFF ARCHERY!!! AN CAV!!! MELEE IS OP!!!
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Boss_Awesome on November 10, 2012, 12:33:55 am
Quote from: Tzar on November 10, 2012, 12:29:21 am
BUFF ARCHERY!!! AN CAV!!! MELEE IS OP!!!

Yes I know you would like to have archery removed from the game but others disagree.  Missile speed was already much slower than Native, makes little sense to have it lowered in the latest patch especially since it broke some things and arrows don't connect properly by either ghosting through players or hitting then head when they should have hit the body. 
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Kafein on November 10, 2012, 12:57:49 am
Quote from: Adamar on November 10, 2012, 12:15:09 am
From the moment you can collect a lot more kills as a melee fighter or cav(has been the case for a very long time), you know archery is way too hard. That is, if you're not a biased melee elitist.

Your fail logic and (voluntary) ignorance of everything that actually matters way more than the number of kills one gets to decide the outcome of a battle baffles me. Besides, archers do get a lot of kills, they just don't score much.
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Adamar on November 10, 2012, 05:01:56 am
Quote from: Kafein on November 10, 2012, 12:57:49 am
Your fail logic and (voluntary) ignorance of everything that actually matters way more than the number of kills one gets to decide the outcome of a battle baffles me. Besides, archers do get a lot of kills, they just don't score much.

Talk to me again about voluntary ignorance. Next you'll be saying that bows do the same damage in a battle as swords or lances.

The validity of archers in battle rellies a lot on teamplay, which is what actually matters, and you rarely see that. From the moment an archer has to relly on himself against any other class, he's usualy screwed.
Slower arrows are unfair, since our short range performance is crap, and getting crappier.
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 10, 2012, 05:42:57 am
Old damage dealt stats, blasted range was even more OP then then it is now  :rolleyes:


Quote from: cmpxchg8b on March 05, 2012, 03:12:14 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 10, 2012, 05:43:45 am
Quote from: cmpxchg8b on March 05, 2012, 03:12:31 pm
(click to show/hide)


10% of damage is too damn high! *shakes fist in rage*
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Pejlaen on November 10, 2012, 01:31:31 pm
People hate getting shot, now alot of people hate shooting as well. Win-win situation this.
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Tzar on November 10, 2012, 01:40:57 pm
Quote from: Pejlaen on November 10, 2012, 01:31:31 pm
People hate getting shot, now alot of people hate shooting as well. Win-win situation this.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Kafein on November 10, 2012, 01:59:28 pm
Quote from: Adamar on November 10, 2012, 05:01:56 am
Talk to me again about voluntary ignorance.

Watch the post patch archers. Or the good ones, regardless of the patch. Archers do get kills, and all ranged are able to chose their targets much more freely than melee or cav. This enables archers to focus on critical targets, making the average archer kill much more valuable than a melee kill.

Quote from: Adamar on November 10, 2012, 05:01:56 am
Next you'll be saying that bows do the same damage in a battle as swords or lances.

No, in fact they do more, because all archers use armor piercing arrows. Swords maybe seem to do a lot of damage to you, that's because clever inf with cut weapons will attack the light armored enemy. As an archer you can 2 shot the big fat str crutch with his plate armor from range.

Quote from: Adamar on November 10, 2012, 05:01:56 am
The validity of archers in battle rellies a lot on teamplay,

No they don't. They get in trouble, they run away. You don't need anybody when you can just run away from what could kill you. If by teamplay you mean outnumbering then it's more or less true given that a melee team only has chances against a group of archers when they have enough people to sacrifice when trying to reach the running bastards. No melee class can take out archers without this numerical advantage.

Quote from: Adamar on November 10, 2012, 05:01:56 am
which is what actually matters, and you rarely see that.

Actually, "teamplay" as any ranged class is much much easier to do than with inf or cav. Shoot the baddies, if they attack flee in different direction = guaranteed crossfire.

Quote from: Adamar on November 10, 2012, 05:01:56 am
From the moment an archer has to relly on himself against any other class, he's usualy screwed.

If by screwed you mean he has to run to maintain his invulnerability to any class but other archers and xbowmen, then yes.

Quote from: Adamar on November 10, 2012, 05:01:56 am
Slower arrows are unfair, since our short range performance is crap, and getting crappier.

L2FPS. There's no aiming sway in warband. If someone comes close enough to you, the game literally becames a point and click. You can turn at any speed you want. As long as you release your shot when the guy is in front of you, you hit him and probably kill him with the huge damage bows do at close range.
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Adamar on November 10, 2012, 03:41:58 pm
You're so not aware of what archery is. Dont the damage statistics show you the kind of damage archery does? 2 shooting plate heroes? That doesn't even happen with other archers.
As for teamplay, battle is largely every man for himself. Meleers run off and leave the archers to deal with cav, shielders and ninjas on their own. How are we supposed to deal with such threats, if our shooting hability is retarded? Running doesn't work that well anymore, so we should be able to beat the enemy by our other means.
Even non kiters like myself got nerfed with these latest changes, why is that, if our performance in the battlefield was already inferior?
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: XyNox on November 10, 2012, 05:56:00 pm
Nubs crying and lobbying against archery is nothing new. The thing I dont understand though is:

chadz once said

Quote
I have thought a long time about what caused this amount of whine. The answer is actually quite easy:

People are not looking for balance, they are looking for advantage.


If you devs know that people whine to get an advantage ... why do you fall for it every time lol ?
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Kafein on November 10, 2012, 06:25:10 pm
Quote from: XyNox on November 10, 2012, 05:56:00 pm
If you devs know that people whine to get an advantage ... why do you fall for it every time lol ?

Even if you categorize all suggestions aiming to change the metagame as whining, it doesn't change the fact that the most vocal part of the playerbase is probably the one that needs to be listened to. When all the archers are nodding "everything is fine" and the whole melee playerbase agrees on changing how archery works, it raises valid interrogations. I don't see people making many suggestion threads about things that are actually fine.


Or maybe you suppose that archers are different and know the game better than almost everybody else, never make whine posts and are not biaised at all ?
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Pejlaen on November 10, 2012, 06:57:41 pm
I dont mind if archery were remade so that it would still be fun for those who really likes it, and more tolerable for those who really hates it. Figuring out how to do it is a different matter though lol.

But seriously, have this change in missile speed made the game more enjoyable for you? Maybe the change helps to balance out the game somehow, but in my personal opinion I have only experienced it to be make the game more buggy, I'm worrying everytime if the arrow will just go straight through an enemy or hit. And even though it will take time to adjust your aim to the new missile-curve, the missile flights feels much more irrationate after the change.
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Strider on November 10, 2012, 07:05:40 pm
I've been trying every archery build out there on my STF alt. I know people will always be against archery but it's more weak than ever before. Hard to hit anything, even horses. Yet people still cry for nerf. I am 2 handed and archery is my biggest enemy. I don't die by arrows often anymore. I can tell they're at a worse level of power.
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Adamar on November 10, 2012, 08:25:03 pm
Quote from: Kafein on November 10, 2012, 06:25:10 pm
Even if you categorize all suggestions aiming to change the metagame as whining, it doesn't change the fact that the most vocal part of the playerbase is probably the one that needs to be listened to.

New people have a tendency to go for melee builds, either for the shield-no directional block crutch, or the beloved 2 handed hero image. This week, one of the in-game whiners said he knew archery was easy because he had played it in native. Said exactly "It's the same damn thing".

Btw, slower arrows are more unpredictable and so more likely to teamhit.
Title: Re: Change Missile speed back to it's former value
Post by: Kafein on November 10, 2012, 11:18:49 pm
Quote from: Adamar on November 10, 2012, 08:25:03 pm
Btw, slower arrows are more unpredictable and so more likely to teamhit.

If a slight change in arrow speed makes you teamhit, you should have been aiming at people further away from your teammates in the first place.