cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Native_ATS on April 20, 2011, 06:22:34 am
-
i have been playing a lot of range classes in CRPG, i have done throwing... i have done xbows, and i have done bows.
i learned that high tier bows are 100% crap in every way.
I master worked a light xbow and bolts to deal out 60p per shot. Thats 60p damg with only 7str needed and 0wpf
i have almost master worked a long bow and arrows, it deals 40cut. That 40cut with 8PD and 146wpf
I have learned and tested that it takes about 3-4 shot with my master work light x-bow to kill most players,
I have shot the same people with my FineLongBow and i was sadden when it took 3-4 shot.....
So i thought about it and started to go over the pro and cons...
Bow can be shot at a ok speed... yet i can match almost any bowmen with the speed on my master work light X-bow. They shot and miss i reload and fire back, about 1-1.5 shot per shot if there using strongbow
--Maybe the aim is better for bows? WRONG! my master work light X-bow has better aim then my FineLongBow... i have 0 in xbow and 146 in bow....
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
--Maybe bows are better to use if i want to wear heavy armor? Well i tested this and learned that if am wearing surcoat over mail i shot my slow bow even slower!... yet my Master work xbow is just fine no matter what i wear...
--Bows cant even hold their shot for a good time... xbows can hold their shot all day,
--One up side is you can reload as you move, but your movement is slowed as you do it
Is it fair that i can deal the same damg with a light xbow with 0 skill points used and 0 wpf as a bowmen with 8pd and 146wpf? The real answer is no...
I am really sad to say that bows are over nerfed, please buff the higher tier bows...
any ideas on this or thoughts about balance?
-
Top tier bows could use a small buff in damage. Longbow should have 27p in my opinion.
-
Any balancing between ranged weapons should be done by nerfing that which is considered too good, never by buffing any.
We have been there and I do not want to go back.
Yes I am biased.
-
--Maybe the aim is better for bows? WRONG! my master work light X-bow has better aim then my FineLongBow... i have 0 in xbow and 146 in bow....
This is bullshit. Screenshot these x-hairs, at peak draw with the bow, and prove it. I have an archer and I have an x-bowman. My x-bowman has 130 in x-bow and my archer has 150 in bow wpf and my archers x-hair reticule gets tighter than my x-bowman's does at peak draw with my strongbow. LongBow has been known to be a shit bow forever now. Use a warbow or strong bow, those are the top tier bows. Long bow is just there for lulz when people buy it and wonder why it sucks.
Btw, you're also forgetting that your 40c bow doesn't really deal 40c with 8 PD because PD increases the damage of the bow. :wink: In reality you're doing more like 60c or 72c (I don't remember what % PD adds to the damage).
-
This is bullshit. Screenshot these x-hairs, at peak draw with the bow, and prove it. I have an archer and I have an x-bowman. My x-bowman has 130 in x-bow and my archer has 150 in bow wpf and my archers x-hair reticule gets tighter than my x-bowman's does at peak draw with my strongbow. LongBow has been known to be a shit bow forever now. Use a warbow or strong bow, those are the top tier bows. Long bow is just there for lulz when people buy it and wonder why it sucks.
Btw, you're also forgetting that your 40c bow doesn't really deal 40c with 8 PD because PD increases the damage of the bow. :wink: In reality you're doing more like 60c or 72c (I don't remember what % PD adds to the damage).
I will post the screen shots...
Then you will be like WTF... If am doing like 72cut why is it that my master work light xbow pwning my long bow? also with 8pd i belive i am dealing a max of 59 cut. The war bow deals less damg... Also what xbow are you using? I got a master work light, and it dose aim better then my longbow or warbow lol Long bow is higher priced and deals the most damg, also that am all bow build and the xbow needs nothing to be better then my 24,15 bow build.the longbow it is ranked up there with the top teir weapons for bows, even if it is Not, then i wounder why the warbow is weaker then the masterwork light xbow? This isnt BS this are Facts
-
Are you complaining that your Masterwork X is performing extremely well when compared to a Fine X?
How about a masterwork longbow or warbow?
Anywho, I say, give a slight buff to the longbow, leave the others alone, and nerf crossbows.
Additionally, are you tapping the attack button for your bow to shoot, or are you holding it down and releasing at the right "sweet spot" when shooting? I do not believe that if you are holding it down to find the sweet spot that it is somehow larger then your masterwork 0 wpf xbow...
Coming as someone with a multi-gen dedicated archer, this thread merely shows that crossbows need to be nerfed, and that the longbow, as usual, is garbage... and that the OP needs to provide evidence of this wpf discrepancy.
EDIT: As a side note, the reloading mechanics of a crossbow means that I can not run and gun with it. In the acre server yesterday I was switching from my melee weapon to my bow and letting off a shot to kill someone, then switching right back and repeating when surrounded by enemies in melee. This would be impossible with a crossbow due to me only being able to do this just once (I have a warbow fyi) and then having to sit still in melee to reload.
Bows always have been able to shoot better "on the bounce."
-
Are you complaining that your Masterwork X is performing extremely well when compared to a Fine X?
How about a masterwork longbow or warbow?
Anywho, I say, give a slight buff to the longbow, leave the others alone, and nerf crossbows.
Additionally, are you tapping the attack button for your bow to shoot, or are you holding it down and releasing at the right "sweet spot" when shooting? I do not believe that if you are holding it down to find the sweet spot that it is somehow larger then your masterwork 0 wpf xbow...
Coming as someone with a multi-gen dedicated archer, this thread merely shows that crossbows need to be nerfed, and that the longbow, as usual, is garbage... and that the OP needs to provide evidence of this wpf discrepancy.
EDIT: As a side note, the reloading mechanics of a crossbow means that I can not run and gun with it. In the acre server yesterday I was switching from my melee weapon to my bow and letting off a shot to kill someone, then switching right back and repeating when surrounded by enemies in melee. This would be impossible with a crossbow due to me only being able to do this just once (I have a warbow fyi) and then having to sit still in melee to reload.
Bows always have been able to shoot better "on the bounce."
ok 3rd loomed LIGHT Xbow is out doing my 2nd loomed LongBow... the +1damg and +1aim Master work LongBow wont make a Big diff in this,
-
I have to agree with Native, the number of times i've been in a tight situation, seen a crossbow, ditched my loomed longbow and actually managed to hit harder, more accurately and practically just as far is rediculous. Also, on another note, I can two shot someone in the same armour as me while I get 1 shot myself (The person I tested this with had no Ironflesh and 18 strength, same as me).
I cannot honestly say that bows are a viable option for ranged these days, people do ok with them, but i've only recently seen someone do WELL with one, and that was because he was picking off peasants.
These arguments/threads have been going on for a while now, it's not because archers as a whole feel hard done by, it's not because we whine and moan about throwing or xbows, although we are not exhempt from it. We're one of the most hated classes there are and we have taken beatings over our equipment and stats for a long time while watching others sit fairly undamaged.
-
Native is perfectly right - I tested masterworked sniper xbow and masterworked warbow. 140 WPF in archery, 1 in xbow. In that case the reticule was bigger for the xbow, but accuracy was same or better nevertheless, since the shots did not vary so much compared to the bow - so you could just aim in the middle of the bigger reticule and it would usually hit.
Still prefer the bow, for obvious reasons. :lol:
-
Native is perfectly right - I tested masterworked sniper xbow and masterworked warbow. 140 WPF in archery, 1 in xbow. In that case the reticule was bigger for the xbow, but accuracy was same or better nevertheless, since the shots did not vary so much compared to the bow - so you could just aim in the middle of the bigger reticule and it would usually hit.
Still prefer the bow, for obvious reasons. :lol:
and that was the master work sniper O.O it deals way more then a master work long bow! my master work light deals the same as my 2xheirloomed longbow :cry:
spread the word, top tier bows need love!
-
This is bullshit. Screenshot these x-hairs, at peak draw with the bow, and prove it. I have an archer and I have an x-bowman. My x-bowman has 130 in x-bow and my archer has 150 in bow wpf and my archers x-hair reticule gets tighter than my x-bowman's does at peak draw with my strongbow. LongBow has been known to be a shit bow forever now. Use a warbow or strong bow, those are the top tier bows. Long bow is just there for lulz when people buy it and wonder why it sucks.
Btw, you're also forgetting that your 40c bow doesn't really deal 40c with 8 PD because PD increases the damage of the bow. :wink: In reality you're doing more like 60c or 72c (I don't remember what % PD adds to the damage).
Aye,
If it's really 14% as the tooltip in native suggests then that would mean 112% increase. There's also some damage increase from wpf. Which would mean something like 85-90c.
@Native:
go troll somewhere else please :(
-
Aye,
If it's really 14% as the tooltip in native suggests then that would mean 112% increase. There's also some damage increase from wpf. Which would mean something like 85-90c.
@Native:
go troll somewhere else please :(
Your basing all your info on "If" so why dont you go troll somewhere ells!
This is CRPG not Native.... it is not 14%, i hate when people post with out bring anything to the table.... Think befor you post, dont say things that you dont know about, you might want to help but when u post lies someone might belive you... we need truth, real ideas and thoughs
-
What distance was it to kill him?
-
Aye,
If it's really 14% as the tooltip in native suggests then that would mean 112% increase. There's also some damage increase from wpf. Which would mean something like 85-90c.
@Native:
go troll somewhere else please :(
Not going to question a dev, but are you sure it is 14%? I remember the bonuses being standardized at 8%, so 8 % for power strike throw and draw.
The crossbows generally have faster projectile speed, so maybe that is a factor in accuracy (in practise).
If anything, high tier bows don't need more damage. But low tier bows could use some boost in damage. With the 37.5 k gold limit on equipment, some guy can grab a weapon and enough armour to pretty much ignore any bow body shots under strong bow, with the only significant amount of damage being the +7 damage from bodkins. Strong, war and long bows can reliably punch through affordable armour.
-
14% per PD is correct, upper limit is difficulty + 4. Wpf bonus multiplicator is (wpf * 0.01 * 0.15 + 0.85), so 100 wpf is needed to get base damage.
Cut down to 90% during rain. :(
-
14% per PD is correct, upper limit is difficulty + 4. Wpf bonus multiplicator is (wpf * 0.01 * 0.15 + 0.85), so 100 wpf is needed to get base damage.
Cut down to 90% during rain. :(
Thank you very much. In fact, much thanks again. If this is not one of the troll posts chadz likes to do sometimes, you have given us the formula that I, and possibly many people have been looking for. Much appreciated.
-
Thank you very much. In fact, much thanks again. If this is not one of the troll posts chadz likes to do sometimes, you have given us the formula that I, and possibly many people have been looking for. Much appreciated.
So...s...Sometimes?
-
Those crosshair screenshots are disturbing.
-
Those crosshair screenshots are disturbing.
I know right! its such bs... i wasted a gen putting all into my build, 24srt, 15agi... 8pd,5wm,5ath,3 riding,2HA and got 146bow and a light xbow is equal or better in every way
-
well the bow is still more damaging, but that alone isn't enough to justify the 6 extra points in PD and all the WPF investment
-
14% per PD is correct, upper limit is difficulty + 4. Wpf bonus multiplicator is (wpf * 0.01 * 0.15 + 0.85), so 100 wpf is needed to get base damage.
Cut down to 90% during rain. :(
Questions:
Do you mean, that if I use Khergit bow with 8PD and 9PD latter doesn't give me a SHIT?
How about accuracy increase? Difficulty + 4 is the max? Higher PD doesn't help you at ANYTHING?!
-
Questions:
Do you mean, that if I use Khergit bow with 8PD and 9PD latter doesn't give me a SHIT?
How about accuracy increase? Difficulty + 4 is the max? Higher PD doesn't help you at ANYTHING?!
Yes; 4 + 4 = 8. 9PD would do nothing more for a khergit than 8 PD would.
strong bow and up would receive a bonus.
I was pretty sure the 4+ requirement was common knowledge to archers and they built their builds around it. All the ones I've ever met have.
Changing topic to long bow, I think it needs like +4 damage added. I might be afraid of a dedicated 10 PD long-bowmen then, as it is they are as likely to oneshot me as a light crossbow which has a higher fire rate and less investment. It would also add some nice diversity to archers, same as short bow firing a little faster.
-
I only know of the rule for damage calculation which limits it to PD + 4. Dunno about accuracy. Also, on horseback there is another penalty lowering damage to 80% without horsearchery.
The factor is (horse_archery * 0.019 + 0.8).
-
I only know of the rule for damage calculation which limits it to PD + 4. Dunno about accuracy. Also, on horseback there is another penalty lowering damage to 80% without horsearchery.
The factor is (horse_archery * 0.019 + 0.8).
Goodness, after months of being misinformtation and testing and digging up of data, here comes paul with the precise equations. You have done horse archers a great favour.
That being said, comparing the 5 HA 3 Pd with nomad build (with one extra point for more ride or wpf) versus the 4 HA with 5 PD with strong bow at full speed shootout, we have. Assuming HA removes 10% of penalty per point as was in vanilla.
(20c*(1.42) + 7 p from bodkins or other arrows) * (1-(.2*.1*5(5 being HA))= 25.56 c + 6.3p.=Pathetic but with a smaller bonus from Wpf
I am going to assume Wpf small bonus does not apply to the bodkin bonus damage.
Assuming 8 WM and 172 prof, that gives us a bonus of 172/100*15%=25.8% for a final damage assuming point blank no movement of target riding sideways etc of
32.15 c+6.3p
If I recall correctly PD is not cumulative, bonus +7 from bodkins is not affected by PD, and I am assuming bonus +7 is affected by HA.
Versus the strongbow build, remembering, but ignoring the slight speed bonus from faster projectile.
(24c*(1.7)+7p) *(1-(.2*.1*6)=35.9c+6.16p
adding wpf assumed to be 172.
45.1622c+6.16p.
Strongbow lower HA build is superior, unless the extra HA point is making the nomad build hit more than 33% more times with superior accuracy, which is not even close to field experiences..
OK, SO MUCH FOR THE POWER OF HA. :P For all those HA haters, each point of bloody HA only removes a 2% damage malus. Not sure how much accuracy is added (not much from my experience). So much for laser, heat seeking guided nuclear missiles of doom shot from horseback as all the chicken littles were claiming :wink:. Compare with the whopping 14% damage bonus from PD.
Given the weakness of HA, why do we still have the 1 HA per 6 agility rule? It is completely worthless. I should think it is now safe to remove that rule, just like what it was done to riding. It is not like even full 10 HA will make them nuclear missiles, since each point only kills a 2% malus, and only if you are going at full speed at that.
I think we need to give some serious thoughts on having HA being for 6 agility. :!:
Paul is on a roll here, pretty much the messiah in terms of information. :) so I hope others can help out on these questions and check my back of envelope calculations.
1. Is the 7 pierce bonus from bodkin arrows affected by HA? By PD? By WPF bonus?
2. Can someone confirm that each point of HA removes 10% of the malus from shooting at top speed?
3. How is the accuracy malus from shooting at top speeds represented?
If what I am seeing is right, strength stack is the way to go for both melee and ALL ranged, HA skill is nearly worthless, strongbow is the bow of choice of both foot archers and horse archers. The last point bears special notice, since that means diversity of bows just went through the window, especially with what I think is going to happen to warbows and longbows next patch. If one of the stated design goals is to allow diversity of loadouts, this needs to be looked into. Having both HA and foot archers using the same bow seems off. Do something to make smaller bows worthwhile as well as top tier bows (war and long) else Strong bow looks like it will dominate all the other choices. Only advantage of long and war would be the ability to enjoy one more point of damage from PD.
* edit. Sniped by tears. You go do that. I am tired of digging for info and through misinformation.
** I realised I used 2% instead of 1.9 from Pauls figures, since I was using outdated native info. So HA is even WORSE than what I have here by a tiny bit.
-
I am going to start an archive of everything Walt and Paul and etc related and put it in one giant spot, as I am tired of digging through forum posts to find this crap...
Later today, why not...
-
Don't forget some of gafferjack's work.
-
you guys do realize that a bow can fire like 6-7 shots in the time it takes for an xbower to fire 2, right?
-
you guys do realize that a bow can fire like 6-7 shots in the time it takes for an xbower to fire 2, right?
Depends on the bow and xbow really. If we say compare a hunting crossbow with say a longbow, we get rather amusing results. But yes, you should have on average three times the rate of fire.
-
Questions:
Do you mean, that if I use Khergit bow with 8PD and 9PD latter doesn't give me a SHIT?
It allows you to keep the reticule closed for longer, but no more damage. This represent the real limiting load of the bow, no matter how strong you are.
Do not compare the reticule size of bows and xbows directly. The size of the reticule is not an absolute measure of accuracy.
-
Do not compare the reticule size of bows and xbows directly. The size of the reticule is not an absolute measure of accuracy.
Other than shot speed, it pretty much is
-
It allows you to keep the reticule closed for longer, but no more damage. This represent the real limiting load of the bow, no matter how strong you are.
Do not compare the reticule size of bows and xbows directly. The size of the reticule is not an absolute measure of accuracy.
You're right. The xbow bolt is in the center of the cone of fire far more often then the bow's arrow :wink:
-
You're right. The xbow bolt is in the center of the cone of fire far more often then the bow's arrow :wink:
hearsay.
-
hearsay.
OBJECTION YOUR HONOR
-
1. Is the 7 pierce bonus from bodkin arrows affected by HA? By PD? By WPF bonus?
Yes.
-
bows dont need buff, xbows need nerf
-
I cannot honestly say that bows are a viable option for ranged these days, people do ok with them, but i've only recently seen someone do WELL with one, and that was because he was picking off peasants.
mh...rly? I dont want to call any names because they are arrogant enough allready but there are still a handfull of archers topping the scoreboard. Interestingly these are the same guys who were at the top of the scoreboard pre patch. and they dont pick out peasants^^
to the topic: It seems like you guys are missing out one very important thing. it has to do with the shot rating compared high teir xbow and bow.
Archers have several advantages which come with the higher reloading speed.
1. Me as a xbower I can mostly shoot once at person, than they reach cover. this means I dont get a knowledge or feeling for the destinaton, altitude difference, running speed etc.
Sure there is a general skill, which you as a bower or xbower have, but bowers will agree that the first shot on a running target, which is quite far away, misses mostly and is a "try" shot to test the things mentioned above. the second and any further shots are positioned well better because of the experience of the first shot.
Me as an xbower I rarely get this second or third chance, I have to depend on my first shot with less knowledge.
2. I need two or more shots (twice loomed sniper x) at almost everything. from quite far distance I dont even 1 shoot naked guys. So for people with low armor I need 2 shots (If they run towards me), bowmen with warbow/longbow aswell.
The difference again is, that I mostly dont get the chance for a second shot because while I am reloading the guy ran for cover whereas bowmen can mostly release a second or even third shot.
-
mh...rly? I dont want to call any names because they are arrogant enough allready but there are still a handfull of archers topping the scoreboard. Interestingly these are the same guys who were at the top of the scoreboard pre patch. and they dont pick out peasants^^
ok i think that bows do need a buff and xbows do need a nurf. ive played as both pre patch and after. pre patch as my archer i would top the server but now im only getting a few kills with my bow and most of my kills with my longsword. as much as i want to go full archery again i cant anymore because i dont kill as easily so i need some 2hander skill so i can defend my self when i have pu 7 arrows in a guy and is right in my face now.
with xbow ever1 has one because of the fact u dont neeed any skill in it so ppl say hey y not have a ranged weapon with me and it doesnt change there melee build at all. ive done 2hander and had a crossbow all the time iwth me with no wpf and i would gets just as many kills with it.
now if im looking at archers from my melee guys point of view. when i go my build with 12 if and i wear my twice hierloomed milinease with heavy gauntlets cased greaves and a winged great heml i can take 16 arrows in me b4 i will die. now as much as i like this i know this is not fair. i walked into a crossfire of 4 archers b4 and took them all down because they couldnt killl me. xbowers can take me down with about 4-5 shots tops. big difference? now not to mention throwing lances but i would usually take 2 of those sometmes 3.
-
The biggest difference between a 160 wpf crossbowman and a 1 wpf melee guy with a crossbow are the long range shots.
I can reliably hit targets 100 yards or so away, while you can't do that with just 1 wpf.
That's it.
Short range, you don't notice that, because you can just use it as a shotgun. Or shoot unaware archers from a roof when you're behind them, but can't get up there.
-
Wow, i'm so confused. Archers are crying about bows, but wait a minute... archers have MUCH more bonuses with heirlooming their bows and especially arrows, because your overall damage depends on base damage, while the damage of xbow is constant. Archers have only 10% penalty in rainy hours, while xbowmen have 25%. Sniper crossbow + steel bolts mean +20000 gold to upkeep. Dedicated archer with heirloomed longbow and arrows can kill me in two shots or 1 headshot (just like the dedicated xbowman with heirloomed sniper xbow). Only the best players should be on the top of scoreboards, if you can't aim properly - then practice or leave.
-
Wow, i'm so confused. Archers are crying about bows, but wait a minute... archers have MUCH more bonuses with heirlooming their bows and especially arrows, because your overall damage depends on base damage, while the damage of xbow is constant. Archers have only 10% penalty in rainy hours, while xbowmen have 25%. Sniper crossbow + steel bolts mean +20000 gold to upkeep. Dedicated archer with heirloomed longbow and arrows can kill me in two shots or 1 headshot (just like the dedicated xbowman with heirloomed sniper xbow). Only the best players should be on the top of scoreboards, if you can't aim properly - then practice or leave.
To be fair the gold argument is bollocks. I dont think you would see many archers crying about increasing the gold cost if you increased damage for example. Could also go the other way around and reduce the price of the xbow by 30% while reducing gold cost by 30%? Im pretty sure most xbowmen would dislike that as well :)
As it is though, archery seems like its fine where it is. Does not really need neither improvement nor "nerfing".
-
To be fair the gold argument is bollocks. I dont think you would see many archers crying about increasing the gold cost if you increased damage for example. Could also go the other way around and reduce the price of the xbow by 30% while reducing gold cost by 30%? Im pretty sure most xbowmen would dislike that as well :)
As it is though, archery seems like its fine where it is. Does not really need neither improvement nor "nerfing".
no it is not fine, top teir bow is the same as 2nd teir xbow... how can u say it is fine
-
no it is not fine, top teir bow is the same as 2nd teir xbow... how can u say it is fine
I did not say what i thought about crossbows as i have yet to actually play for a longer time with that and as such i dont really feel like i can comment on that properly. Theres plenty of people spreading unfounded opinions about everything, you certainly dont need me to add to that.
As for bows, i seem to be doing pretty good. Most of the time near the top if not at the top. I dont really feel like theres much of a need to boost anything as it is for archery.
-
no it is not fine, top teir bow is the same as 2nd teir xbow... how can u say it is fine
explain`?! answer to posts and dont just state a position? comparison of mw xbow and fine longbow?...really?
-
I did not say what i thought about crossbows as i have yet to actually play for a longer time with that and as such i dont really feel like i can comment on that properly. Theres plenty of people spreading unfounded opinions about everything, you certainly dont need me to add to that.
As for bows, i seem to be doing pretty good. Most of the time near the top if not at the top. I dont really feel like theres much of a need to boost anything as it is for archery.
unfounded? dude i have done both and post screen shots... its not unfound unless ur blind and cant read.
some bows are ok, but the top teir bows are trash.
-
unfounded? dude i have done both and post screen shots... its not unfound unless ur blind and cant read.
some bows are ok, but the top teir bows are trash.
I did not mean yours was unfounded, thats hard to claim since you actually took the time to post screenshots for us to compare. Im just not sure that reticules says all there is to say about accuracy, which is why i cant comment since i havent actually tried crossbows for more than a generation.
Sorry if i came across wrong, all im saying is that i think archery is fine exactly where its at. Crossbows might need a nerf, might not, but i just dont think archery needs alterations at the moment.
Edit: Just to be completely sure im not leaving it open, what you're claiming is not unfounded, you do produce some evidence to back it up.
-
Sorry if i came across wrong, all im saying is that i think archery is fine exactly where its at. Crossbows might need a nerf, might not, but i just dont think archery needs alterations at the moment.
they will be nerfed just fine with the 2 slots item system
-
they will be nerfed just fine with the 2 slots item system
If you mean bows then what i heard was that they are also upping some stats on the bows along with the patch. I dont actually have that in writing though but that would make some sense.
Besides, i still dont think the 2slot system works for archery since unless they increase the amount of arrows per quiver quite drastically i know i will just run instead of fight. Going with just 16 arrows would be retarded.
-
If you mean bows then what i heard was that they are also upping some stats on the bows along with the patch. I dont actually have that in writing though but that would make some sense.
Besides, i still dont think the 2slot system works for archery since unless they increase the amount of arrows per quiver quite drastically i know i will just run instead of fight. Going with just 16 arrows would be retarded.
16 is too much, 10 sounds about right.
-
Who are you shooting? I was one shotting people with my dedicated archer and an unheirloomed long bow
You must be trollin or doing some sillysauce hybrid build
-
Who are you shooting? I was one shotting people with my dedicated archer and an unheirloomed long bow
You must be trollin or doing some sillysauce hybrid build
To be fair, you dont need much to oneshot peasants. You're playing with a 10pd build then? Because with a regular build (6-7PD) and mw longbow + twice heirloomed bodkins im oneshotting next to noone.
-
To be fair, you dont need much to oneshot peasants. You're playing with a 10pd build then? Because with a regular build (6-7PD) and mw longbow + twice heirloomed bodkins im oneshotting next to noone.
Well to be fair a 3x heirloomd sniper crossbow rarely one shots anything either... unless there is a speed bonus from cav riding towards you. Or a low armour, low if person. But then again a 6-7 PD would one shot that aswell.
-
The tankiest target I tested damage on with that build was Linden in fully heirloomed milanese and a douchebag load of str
I could 3 shot him with longbow
-
Who are you shooting? I was one shotting people with my dedicated archer and an unheirloomed long bow
You must be trollin or doing some sillysauce hybrid build
To be fair you were packing a 13 powerdraw build.
-
And he only had to be about 5m away to reliably land a hit.
-
To be fair you were packing a 13 powerdraw build.
lol what a troll, i hate when people try to make a point when they leave things out, "Dude i was one shoting everything.... oh ya i had 13pd lol"
-
Well to be fair a 3x heirloomd sniper crossbow rarely one shots anything either... unless there is a speed bonus from cav riding towards you. Or a low armour, low if person. But then again a 6-7 PD would one shot that aswell.
I dont oneshot most cavalry even when im waiting they are almost in my face to shoot. And i do play an archer right now so and the only ones i do oneshot are peasants or what im guessing is high agility builds with no armor on a horse.
-
13 PD is a waste of skills points, aslong as PD doesn't give any bonus after 10.
-
Dave? You always nerf your items by your own, why this post?
-
lol what a troll, i hate when people try to make a point when they leave things out, "Dude i was one shoting everything.... oh ya i had 13pd lol"
To be fair, he did say DEDICATED archer.
-
To be fair, he did say DEDICATED archer.
Am a dedicated archer too lol, i got 9pd, 140wpf and well 4 ath 4ride and 4wm, i could get 10pd but then i just have 10pd 4wm
-
PD 10 would be too much for a horse/foot hybrid archer. the PD rating of the strong bow(strongest HA choice) is 5, that means it doesnt profit from pd higher than 5+4 = 9.
-
I've only observed this in my own limited experiences but I believe xbows are more accurate than bows even when their reticle isn't. When using a 130 wpf strongbow I shoot every which way inside the reticle, whereas with 90 wpf my heavy crossbow shoots straight every time. Other people have observed this too but it may just be some sort of mass hallucination or buyer's remorse. Do any developers have some solid information on this? I think it's relevant to the discussion if this thread is fundamentally about reticle sizes.
-
Somedays I get weak when I'm feeling the pain of the throwing nerf, so I bought a regular crossbow and some bolts and traded the two slots for half my throwing spears. (From 8 to 4, *sigh*) I used it for a few rounds, and while I didn't get the same enjoyment from it, it was more accurate at 0 wpf then every single throwing weapon I owned at 130 wpf. It also did pretty nice damage too. Comparable to the damage my throwing spears were doing at 6-7 PT
I guess my point is, for the love of god fix throwing. :cry: And I guess make crossbow wpf actually mean something. I mean if you have time after throwing.
-
Longbow's run and gun ability is completely useless as I could leave the room, take a 20 minute shit and come back before it fires one arrow. The thing is garbage, even with pierce damage. Lets not forget it's 2 slot, so the maximum amount of bodkin arrows you can take is 34, IF you don't take a melee weapon. (and don't say "take a 0 slot weapon" those are trash too)
Xbow users can take all those skills and wpf that they would otherwise have to put into PD and make a good melee character, while a bow user has to dedicate themselves to bow for sub-par performance as well as having to wear light armor.
The archery wpf doesn't do enough to improve accuracy and the bows simply don't do enough damage. Any bow below a strong bow and you're just praying that you get a headshot, otherwise it'll take an entire quiver to kill a decently armored infantry, or won't do any damage at all to a plate user. Then the war bow and the long bow are both 2 slots so they suck ass because you only get 15 arrows if you want to take a melee weapon, and even if you hit someone, unless it's really close up, you're only putting a tincan down in 4-5 shots (unless you have 13pd, in which case you made a shit build).
Don't even get me started on the fact that 1/3 of your arrows will go right through the person.
Right now the optimal archer build (in my opinion) is: strong bow, and 3 stacks of basic arrows (81 arrows if heirloomed).
also, what was wrong with hybrid characters? I thought that's what made c-rpg cooler than native. But unless you're a two-handed tincan you get nerfed into the ground because people cry that they don't have a shield.
-
Longbow's run and gun ability is completely useless as I could leave the room, take a 20 minute shit and come back before it fires one arrow.
The arbalest is the same way at least. It's got some weird delay between releasing the trigger and actually firing. I don't know how anyone can use it with that. Not to mention it takes half a round to reload the thing.
-
Longbow's run and gun ability is completely useless as I could leave the room, take a 20 minute shit and come back before it fires one arrow. The thing is garbage, even with pierce damage. Lets not forget it's 2 slot, so the maximum amount of bodkin arrows you can take is 34, IF you don't take a melee weapon. (and don't say "take a 0 slot weapon" those are trash too)
Xbow users can take all those skills and wpf that they would otherwise have to put into PD and make a good melee character, while a bow user has to dedicate themselves to bow for sub-par performance as well as having to wear light armor.
The archery wpf doesn't do enough to improve accuracy and the bows simply don't do enough damage. Any bow below a strong bow and you're just praying that you get a headshot, otherwise it'll take an entire quiver to kill a decently armored infantry, or won't do any damage at all to a plate user. Then the war bow and the long bow are both 2 slots so they suck ass because you only get 15 arrows if you want to take a melee weapon, and even if you hit someone, unless it's really close up, you're only putting a tincan down in 4-5 shots (unless you have 13pd, in which case you made a shit build).
Don't even get me started on the fact that 1/3 of your arrows will go right through the person.
Right now the optimal archer build (in my opinion) is: strong bow, and 3 stacks of basic arrows (81 arrows if heirloomed).
also, what was wrong with hybrid characters? I thought that's what made c-rpg cooler than native. But unless you're a two-handed tincan you get nerfed into the ground because people cry that they don't have a shield.
give this man a cookie, he speaks the truth!
-
Mostly it just annoys me that I regularly have to take 3-4 arrows to kill an unarmored horse (not even talking about the rider) with MW strong bow/MW bodkin arrows/6 pwrdrw and all they have to do is notice me shooting them, I get 1 more arrow hit and they can cross the half the map in the time I shoot one arrow and lance me to death (90% of cav in NA is lancers usually coursers not arabian warhorses). When 30% of the server is cav (usually the case on the NA 100), being an archer doesn't help much as you can shoot 5 different horses multiple times and all it takes is one guy with a 180 length lance to wave it in your direction while riding a white ferrari and its a one-hit kill.
-
All I know is throwin, which makes horse murdering an art, so forgive my ignorance. I thought generally bow and xbow users as a rule of thumb strictly aim for the rider instead of the horse because the horse can take more of a beating? It's just what I've heard and I'm not trying to be disagreeable. I know you've been archer'n for ages.
-
All I know is throwin, which makes horse murdering an art, so forgive my ignorance. I thought generally bow and xbow users as a rule of thumb strictly aim for the rider instead of the horse because the horse can take more of a beating? It's just what I've heard and I'm not trying to be disagreeable. I know you've been archer'n for ages.
Horses travelling at high speed or dodging and weaving are easy misses on the rider, I also can shoot for the rider, but thats like saying aim for an infantryman''s head. Yes a head shot is great but you are not going to make every shot a head shot (i have yet to see an archer who has over 50% headshots). The main time you aim for the rider is at close ranges, but even then 1 shot doesn't kill so if they are not wounded or you don't geta head shot they often will lance you after the hit.
-
You raise an interesting point Kesh.
Damage, damage, damage. Why is everyone talking about increasing bow damage when the screens in the OP indicate an imbalance with respect to ACCURACY? What I'd like to see is a further tweaking of how bow accuracy has been determined ever since they changed the way PD works two patches ago. I've watched the "accuracy" rating of bows climb ever slightly higher to the point that my masterwork warbow now has 100. However, this seems to be only one small variable in a large, mysterious equation.
Before the major change to PD (back when you pretty much wanted as little PD as you could get away with), I was getting about 40% headshot kills with my khergit bow, 4 PD, and about 170 WPF, according to EU4 server stats. My damage was lousy, but I relied on excellent accuracy to aim for heads or under-armored feet, even at longer ranges, and did quite well as an archer and had a LOT more fun doing it. Ever since that patch, it has proved impossible to get a bow's reticule anywhere near as precise, even with a higher "accuracy" rating for the bow.
At least throw us archers a bone Urist and give us some indication of how PD, WPF, and the bow's base accuracy rating come together to affect the reticule. I feel like I don't know how to build my archer character to get what I want anymore. (Oh, and thank you for your previous posts. Very helpful.)
-
Yeh, i would actually agree with this. I had an archer alt at level 30 pre-january and an archer at level 30 after the patch and it is amazing how inaccurate bows have gotten and mid to long ranges. One of the most obvious examples is the crossbowman who stands still and can probably hit you halfway across the map, but at medium distance a non-moving target you have dead in your reticule and the arrow will go just left of them, next arrow just right of them, next arrow might hit, but then they don't move and your next two arrows go one left and one right (all with you not changing your aimed reticule). Decreasing shoot speed was bad enough for archers, fine, I cand eal with having to lead and predict shots more, delayed draw speed, fine its annoying but bearable, cut damage, okay, but then to add random factors in targeting just took a lot of the love out of archery. Especially when a guy with 0 wpf in xbow will shoot dead center of his reticule more often than you will with 140 wpf in archery.
This last patch actually brought it temporarily back to the way it was (probably not intentional, next hotfix returned it to post-January standards), would be nice to go somewhere in-between the 2 extremes. Archery really has become an almost entirely mid to short range weapon (shoot speed decrease so minimal damage at longer ranges and accuracy nerf really becomes noticeable at longer ranges), which means you usually only get to shoot (not necessarily hit, but shoot) at cav once or maybe twice before they can lance you down with ease. Considering how little damage arrows do now it seems strange they should also be less accurate than the far more damaging xbows.
-
It feels like somewhere among all the thousands of arguments, patches, nerfs, buffs, and tweaks that have revolved around archery and crossbows, the aspect that used to define and distinguish them has been lost. Archery was about significantly less damage that rewarded you for excellent skill in aiming, timing, and leading a moving target. Crossbows were about hard-hitting, high-projectile speed, make your single shot count strategies that rewarded you for judicious choosing of your shot. Although I feel crossbow philosophy is still quite similar, people have gotten so absorbed on archery damage, that the whole point of archery has been lost. It's much like arguing about whether a German Greatsword does 26 pierce instead of 28 rather than addressing the issue of the thrust animation. If archery has an issue, address archery, not bows.