Poll

Buff top tier bows?

Yes, they need a little love
51 (42.1%)
No, they dont
44 (36.4%)
X-bows need a nerf
26 (21.5%)

Total Members Voted: 121

Author Topic: Top tier bow = 2nd teir xbow?  (Read 7951 times)

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Offline kongxinga

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Re: Top tier bow = 2nd teir xbow?
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2011, 02:03:42 am »
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14% per PD is correct, upper limit is difficulty + 4. Wpf bonus multiplicator is (wpf * 0.01 * 0.15 + 0.85), so 100 wpf is needed to get base damage.

Cut down to 90% during rain. :(

Thank you very much. In fact, much thanks again. If this is not one of the troll posts chadz likes to do sometimes, you have given us the formula that I, and possibly many people have been looking for. Much appreciated.

Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: Top tier bow = 2nd teir xbow?
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2011, 02:09:19 am »
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Thank you very much. In fact, much thanks again. If this is not one of the troll posts chadz likes to do sometimes, you have given us the formula that I, and possibly many people have been looking for. Much appreciated.

So...s...Sometimes?
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Offline Seawied

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Re: Top tier bow = 2nd teir xbow?
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2011, 03:35:30 am »
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Those crosshair screenshots are disturbing.
So with PT >10 stones become simple too effective
:lol:

Offline Native_ATS

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Re: Top tier bow = 2nd teir xbow?
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2011, 04:23:43 am »
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Those crosshair screenshots are disturbing.
I know right! its such bs... i wasted a gen putting all into my build, 24srt, 15agi... 8pd,5wm,5ath,3 riding,2HA and got 146bow and a light xbow is equal or better in every way

Offline Seawied

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Re: Top tier bow = 2nd teir xbow?
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2011, 06:20:45 am »
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well the bow is still more damaging, but that alone isn't enough to justify the 6 extra points in PD and all the WPF investment
So with PT >10 stones become simple too effective
:lol:

Offline Dravic

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Re: Top tier bow = 2nd teir xbow?
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2011, 11:01:06 am »
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14% per PD is correct, upper limit is difficulty + 4. Wpf bonus multiplicator is (wpf * 0.01 * 0.15 + 0.85), so 100 wpf is needed to get base damage.

Cut down to 90% during rain. :(

Questions:

Do you mean, that if I use Khergit bow with 8PD and 9PD latter doesn't give me a SHIT?
How about accuracy increase? Difficulty + 4 is the max? Higher PD doesn't help you at ANYTHING?!

Offline Cyclopsided

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Re: Top tier bow = 2nd teir xbow?
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2011, 11:10:25 am »
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Questions:

Do you mean, that if I use Khergit bow with 8PD and 9PD latter doesn't give me a SHIT?
How about accuracy increase? Difficulty + 4 is the max? Higher PD doesn't help you at ANYTHING?!
Yes; 4 + 4 = 8. 9PD would do nothing more for a khergit than 8 PD would.
strong bow and up would receive a bonus.

I was pretty sure the 4+ requirement was common knowledge to archers and they built their builds around it. All the ones I've ever met have.

Changing topic to long bow, I think it needs like +4 damage added. I might be afraid of a dedicated 10 PD long-bowmen then, as it is they are as likely to oneshot me as a light crossbow which has a higher fire rate and less investment. It would also add some nice diversity to archers, same as short bow firing a little faster.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 11:14:13 am by Marathon »
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Offline Paul

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Re: Top tier bow = 2nd teir xbow?
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2011, 11:14:28 am »
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I only know of the rule for damage calculation which limits it to PD + 4. Dunno about accuracy. Also, on horseback there is another penalty lowering damage to 80% without horsearchery.
The factor is (horse_archery * 0.019 + 0.8).

Offline kongxinga

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Re: Top tier bow = 2nd teir xbow?
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2011, 05:35:03 pm »
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I only know of the rule for damage calculation which limits it to PD + 4. Dunno about accuracy. Also, on horseback there is another penalty lowering damage to 80% without horsearchery.
The factor is (horse_archery * 0.019 + 0.8).

Goodness, after months of being misinformtation and testing and digging up of data, here comes paul with the precise equations. You have done horse archers a great favour.


That being said, comparing the 5 HA 3 Pd with nomad build (with one extra point for more ride or wpf) versus the 4 HA with 5 PD with strong bow at full speed shootout, we have. Assuming HA removes 10% of penalty per point as was in vanilla.


(20c*(1.42) + 7 p from bodkins or other arrows) * (1-(.2*.1*5(5 being HA))= 25.56 c + 6.3p.=Pathetic but with a smaller bonus from Wpf

I am going to assume Wpf small bonus does not apply to the bodkin bonus damage.

Assuming 8 WM and 172 prof, that gives us a bonus of 172/100*15%=25.8% for a final damage assuming point blank no movement of target riding sideways etc of

32.15 c+6.3p

If I recall correctly PD is not cumulative, bonus +7 from bodkins is not affected by PD, and I am assuming bonus +7 is affected by HA.

Versus the strongbow build, remembering, but ignoring the slight speed bonus from faster projectile.

(24c*(1.7)+7p) *(1-(.2*.1*6)=35.9c+6.16p

adding wpf assumed to be 172.

45.1622c+6.16p.

Strongbow lower HA build is superior, unless the extra HA point is making the nomad build hit more than 33% more times with superior accuracy, which is not even close to field experiences..

OK, SO MUCH FOR THE POWER OF HA. :P For all those HA haters, each point of bloody HA only removes a 2% damage malus. Not sure how much accuracy is added (not much from my experience). So much for laser, heat seeking guided nuclear missiles of doom shot from horseback as all the chicken littles were claiming :wink:. Compare with the whopping 14% damage bonus from PD.

Given the weakness of HA, why do we still have the 1 HA per 6 agility rule? It is completely worthless. I should think it is now safe to remove that rule, just like what it was done to riding. It is not like even full 10 HA will make them nuclear missiles, since each point only kills a 2% malus, and only if you are going at full speed at that.

I think we need to give some serious thoughts on having HA being for 6 agility. :!:

Paul is on a roll here, pretty much the messiah in terms of information. :) so I hope others can help out on these questions and check my back of envelope calculations.

1. Is the 7 pierce bonus from bodkin arrows affected by HA? By PD? By WPF bonus?

2. Can someone confirm that each point of HA removes 10% of the malus from shooting at top speed?

3. How is the accuracy malus from shooting at top speeds represented?

If what I am seeing is right, strength stack is the way to go for both melee and ALL ranged, HA skill is nearly worthless, strongbow is the bow of choice of both foot archers and horse archers. The last point bears special notice, since that means diversity of bows just went through the window, especially with what I think is going to happen to warbows and longbows next patch.  If one of the stated design goals is to allow diversity of loadouts, this needs to be looked into. Having both HA and foot archers using the same bow seems off. Do something to make smaller bows worthwhile as well as top tier bows (war and long) else Strong bow looks like it will dominate all the other choices. Only advantage of long and war would be the ability to enjoy one more point of damage from PD.

* edit. Sniped by tears. You go do that. I am tired of digging for info and through misinformation.

** I realised I used 2% instead of 1.9 from Pauls figures, since I was using outdated native info. So HA is even WORSE than what I have here by a tiny bit.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 07:35:32 pm by kongxinga »

Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: Top tier bow = 2nd teir xbow?
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2011, 06:02:44 pm »
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I am going to start an archive of everything Walt and Paul and etc related and put it in one giant spot, as I am tired of digging through forum posts to find this crap...


Later today, why not...
I'm not normal and I don't pretend so, my approach is pretty much a bomb crescendo.
Death is a fun way to pass the time though, several little bullets moving in staccato.
The terror of my reign will live on in infamy, singing when they die like a dead man's symphony.

Offline Patricia

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Re: Top tier bow = 2nd teir xbow?
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2011, 11:06:11 pm »
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Don't forget some of gafferjack's work.

Offline Diavolo

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Re: Top tier bow = 2nd teir xbow?
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2011, 06:50:45 pm »
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you guys do realize that a bow can fire like 6-7 shots in the time it takes for an xbower to fire 2, right?
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Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: Top tier bow = 2nd teir xbow?
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2011, 07:42:43 pm »
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you guys do realize that a bow can fire like 6-7 shots in the time it takes for an xbower to fire 2, right?

Depends on the bow and xbow really. If we say compare a hunting crossbow with say a longbow, we get rather amusing results. But yes, you should have on average three times the rate of fire.
I'm not normal and I don't pretend so, my approach is pretty much a bomb crescendo.
Death is a fun way to pass the time though, several little bullets moving in staccato.
The terror of my reign will live on in infamy, singing when they die like a dead man's symphony.

Offline MouthnHoof

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Re: Top tier bow = 2nd teir xbow?
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2011, 09:29:42 pm »
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Questions:

Do you mean, that if I use Khergit bow with 8PD and 9PD latter doesn't give me a SHIT?
It allows you to keep the reticule closed for longer, but no more damage. This represent the real limiting load of the bow, no matter how strong you are.

Do not compare the reticule size of bows and xbows directly. The size of the reticule is not an absolute measure of accuracy.

Offline Seawied

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Re: Top tier bow = 2nd teir xbow?
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2011, 04:24:16 am »
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Do not compare the reticule size of bows and xbows directly. The size of the reticule is not an absolute measure of accuracy.

Other than shot speed, it pretty much is
So with PT >10 stones become simple too effective
:lol: