cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Latvian on October 17, 2012, 11:04:54 pm

Title: sad but true
Post by: Latvian on October 17, 2012, 11:04:54 pm
as you see 4 of 4 players in enemy team are archers or throwers   ranged in 1  word and picture is taken today in eu 5 which is low level player server as we know and for low level players it is quiet hard to fight against full ranged team due to lack of speed because of low level (in this case in my team were 3 or even 4 peasants and me like level 16 guy) what is even more sad it also somehow represents situation in eu 1 server as well which is filled with ranged ,mostly archers and i was wondering why their( ranged class player) population has grown so high?



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Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Lannistark on October 17, 2012, 11:06:36 pm
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Latvian on October 17, 2012, 11:07:25 pm
thats how i came up with thread name  lovely song
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: LordBerenger on October 17, 2012, 11:16:55 pm
There's ranged no question about it in NA1 server but absolutely not as many as on EU 1. Nor GK spawnkillers which is GG.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Fips on October 17, 2012, 11:17:16 pm
buff ranged
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Latvian on October 17, 2012, 11:18:55 pm
i am not asking to nerff it or something but if possible to make it less attractive for people to play because soon half of players will be ranged and nobody will want to play such awesome mod as cRangedpg ( as someone said in eu 1 recently :D)
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Tzar on October 17, 2012, 11:25:19 pm

Ahahhaa sucha troll name Jumping Jew of Jerusalem  :lol:
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Fips on October 17, 2012, 11:31:12 pm
i am not asking to nerff it or something but if possible to make it less attractive for people to play because soon half of players will be ranged and nobody will want to play such awesome mod as cRangedpg ( as someone said in eu 1 recently :D)

It would most certainly help if everyone stops bitching about ranged, killing all those hardcore-QQers without even touching them in melee is mucho fun. At least i enjoy every QQ, whether it is on TS or ingame in the chat.
And by the way, who the hell cares about the lowlvl-servers, anyway? If you don't like the ranged in the other team, just take a friggin crossbow with you and pew pew with them. With that equipment and the competition on eu5 you can get kills with 0wpf just as the actual ranged in the other team. At least that's what i did when facing too many ranged on my freshly retired melee-alt. Even those 0-skill-shields might help.

I do agree that there are many ranged recently, but that'll change over time. I'd really like to know the kill-statistics on EU1 right now, like harald (or was it cmp?) posted some time ago.
There might be many ranged, but the outcome of the battle still relies much more on melee and cav, than on the ranged, at least that's what i think.

But scoreboard-wise, ranged could really need a little love.

Edit: Huehuehue, gotta love that vote-system.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Tears of Destiny on October 17, 2012, 11:43:28 pm
This morning out of 38 or so players, there was one horse archer, two infantry archers, and one man with a crossbow, and about a dozen cavalry on NA. Good times.
Oh and a thrower somewhere in there.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Gurnisson on October 17, 2012, 11:44:43 pm
It would most certainly help if everyone stops bitching about ranged, killing all those hardcore-QQers without even touching them in melee is mucho fun. At least i enjoy every QQ, whether it is on TS or ingame in the chat.

It is indeed fun to feel those tears. However it's dire being infantry in the team with almost no ranged facing an archer stack. I'm not complaining about the power of ranged, I just don't find melee fun anymore because of it. I rather play ranged along with the rest, since it's brings more fun than frustration, the opposite of melee. Siege and DtV is nice as infantry, but can't stand battle anymore.

Like I said, not complaining about it, just joining the fun with the rest. :)
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Thovex on October 17, 2012, 11:52:37 pm
Yup, I've recently went on my archer STF, it is way more fun than playing infantry nowadays, so I'll just join the assholes and have fun.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: peter_afca7 on October 18, 2012, 03:35:20 pm
i am not asking to nerff it or something but if possible to make it less attractive for people to play because soon half of players will be ranged and nobody will want to play such awesome mod as cRangedpg ( as someone said in eu 1 recently :D)
so there was someone that saw wat i wrote i am a happy person know  :D
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: IR_Kuoin on October 18, 2012, 03:55:11 pm
How I feel as a melee player on Eu1

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Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: bilwit on October 18, 2012, 04:06:38 pm
Autobalance is the worst part of this game. It loves putting all cav or all archers on the same team or even all the best players on the same team sometimes. It's stupid.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Adamar on October 18, 2012, 04:28:33 pm
Final solution: 'Buff' ranged!

Make it so wearing any type of medium armor has 0 effect on accuracy or shooting speed.

Light kitting ranged builds will be owned by armored melee ranged builds, since these can survive more arrows.

Melee ranged builds will become more prominent, or at least more capable of killing kitters.

Melee ranged builds will still be inefficient kitters due to armor weight, ranged population should decrease overall.

Basically more armor would mean better archer, but crappier kitter.

Plate armor and such should still reduce accuracy, to avoid overpowering ranged, and armor cost as it is will still keep people in check.


Think about the pros and cons, it might better to have archers who are sligtly better at melee.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Dexxtaa on October 18, 2012, 04:30:54 pm
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Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Latvian on October 18, 2012, 04:41:14 pm
i cant play in eu 1 anymore due to the amount of ranged, i am forced to play in siege and i realy dont like siege but there is less archers and more cover...
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: NuberT on October 18, 2012, 04:49:22 pm
bring back melee monday! WOOOKIIMONSTAAAAA!!!!
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: LordBerenger on October 18, 2012, 05:07:24 pm
I like ranged make no mistake about it. Counters retarded charging into melee only every round with inf only. But when you got like 200000 archers camping a roof against your team who only got GK Spawnkillers or whatever then you're doomed to fail.

Plus it's boring as fuck.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on October 18, 2012, 05:21:11 pm
wow...the amount of archers there is...

been away from the game and they are still able to run away like little fairies?

please, give a break on project donkeyballs and take care of this mod that has kept me occupied for years  :cry:
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Riddaren on October 18, 2012, 06:10:35 pm
Would be really nice if teams could be balanced by ranged somehow.
I understand it will be hard to make such a system perfect but it doesn't need to be.
It just needs to be better than the system we have now.

Also this:

bring back melee monday!
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Kafein on October 18, 2012, 06:54:24 pm
For all my cRPG career I always played battle.

Now I play siege.

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Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Piok on October 18, 2012, 07:07:46 pm
Final solution: 'Buff' ranged!

Make it so wearing any type of medium armor has 0 effect on accuracy or shooting speed.

Light kitting ranged builds will be owned by armored melee ranged builds, since these can survive more arrows.

Melee ranged builds will become more prominent, or at least more capable of killing kitters.

Melee ranged builds will still be inefficient kitters due to armor weight, ranged population should decrease overall.

Basically more armor would mean better archer, but crappier kitter.

Plate armor and such should still reduce accuracy, to avoid overpowering ranged, and armor cost as it is will still keep people in check.


Think about the pros and cons, it might better to have archers who are sligtly better at melee.
I don't think so because even in medium gear(around kuyaks) will not help you much only reduce your speed (still dying from 2-3 shots). So basically lighter archer will kite like always and those who try medium will quickly revert back cause they will be raped by bloodthirsty mob of melee seeking  retribution.
Nothing is better then fresh juicy archer all over my bardiche (perspective of melee player) :twisted:
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Adamar on October 18, 2012, 07:46:28 pm
Actually Im a medium armored archer myself(scale), armor does help, and it would work, if we didn't shoot slower.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Tibe on October 18, 2012, 07:54:53 pm
I dont really care anymore. If the autobalance goes to trollmode for a few rounds I just go Siege. But yea, happens alot that I just keep sucking my awesome 2h greatsword behind a wall until someone couches or shoots me. Id say its fair, 2h had its fair share of fun in the server...time to move on. :D
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: rAve on October 18, 2012, 08:28:04 pm
and the devs still dont realize they messed up... EU 1 player base went from a full server of 120 down to about 70 players for the last two months? cuz some dude boosted rangetards... i barely ever see EU1 with even 90-100 ppl on it... siege is the only playable game mod for now, but the server is always full.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Arrowblood on October 18, 2012, 08:38:24 pm
and the devs still dont realize they messed up... EU 1 player base went from a full server of 120 down to about 70 players for the last two months? cuz some dude boosted rangetards... i barely ever see EU1 with even 90-100 ppl on it... siege is the only playable game mod for now, but the server is always full.
Tell me what was the rangetard boost?
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Frankysan on October 18, 2012, 08:46:03 pm
i'm just disgusted i don't think archers are OP or anything, i gave up on some smart balance 1 year ago. But this ranged fest is killing diversity, wich is killing metagame, wich is killing the fun. Soon whoever will be so fool not to carry a ranged a weapon will be cavalry or shielder.
and many veterans as well just react like "fuck this i'll respec to archer as well". Why should they play call of duty with knife only?
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Latvian on October 18, 2012, 08:53:45 pm
archery is not that OP  , OP is the number of archers  decrease number of archers=save mod
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: peter_afca7 on October 18, 2012, 09:01:42 pm
archery is not that OP  , OP is the number of archers  decrease number of archers=save mod
just got strat battle and got 75% of the time headshot time to let EU_1 go and do something else
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Molly on October 18, 2012, 09:06:50 pm
and the devs still dont realize they messed up... EU 1 player base went from a full server of 120 down to about 70 players for the last two months? cuz some dude boosted rangetards... i barely ever see EU1 with even 90-100 ppl on it... siege is the only playable game mod for now, but the server is always full.
I made a post about declining player numbers a few months back and all I got as answer was "Nah, you're wrong - playernumbers are growing!" That argument is just being ignored.

...but what do I care - not playing anymore anyway. Sooo many great games released lately, couldn't care less if crpg is ruined by ignorance.  8-)
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Templar_Ratigan on October 18, 2012, 09:07:14 pm
When we were all peasants no one whined that much about being unable to fight off the ultra high level and geared people.

Now all people do is whine, or look for an excuse to do so. And yes im whining about whining, but I think we need some of that now in this place.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Muunilinst on October 18, 2012, 09:07:50 pm
archers should be there to give supressing fire and not to be accurate as a fucking m107 barret snipergun.
and all this running away turn back shoot and run again is so fkcn boring when i chased them in the past i just gave it up andlet em shoot me cuz its so fkcn boring palying against those guys. most retarded thing is still the shotgunning archers turning with drawed bow and running around the guy and release, comepletely unfair  increase the inf bum range when in near of drawed bow/crossbow, anyway why do i even post again nothing will change anyway its not the game its the players which choose the wrong side of the rive.. and destroying eu foricing people to play siege or even quit this mod for a while. hello infamy!
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Kirman on October 18, 2012, 09:13:37 pm
First of all thanks for the epic song which reminds me old days.

I posted it somewhere else too. Thats the only reason that i stopped playin on eu1. You should be a range or cav to fit in eu1.

-Range
-Melee
-Cav

Theres always huge amount of cav/range in one team. Equal or close numbers in each team sounds better. Lets think theres 21 ranged in server. Make it 10vs11.
There wont be a problem. Thats how balance needs to work in my opinion.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: peter_afca7 on October 18, 2012, 09:22:17 pm
First of all thanks for the epic song which reminds me old days.

I posted it somewhere else too. Thats the only reason that i stopped playin on eu1. You should be a range or cav to fit in eu1.

-Range
-Melee
-Cav

Theres always huge amount of cav/range in one team. Equal or close numbers in each team sounds better. Lets think theres 21 ranged in server. Make it 10vs11.
There wont be a problem. Thats how balance needs to work in my opinion.
wont fix the problem if the 10 are the best archers in the game and the other 11 suck
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: LordBerenger on October 18, 2012, 09:26:18 pm
And please don't come to NA server. You might bring those pesky aimbot archers with you.

Already got Aderyn here with his aimbot :/
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: oohillac on October 18, 2012, 09:50:44 pm
Every map needs some more cover added to protect from cavalry and archers.  Go back and add rocks, rubble, trees, etc. 
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Tears of Destiny on October 18, 2012, 09:55:59 pm
Of course we have too many range players running about...
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on October 18, 2012, 10:00:17 pm
The problem is not that cavalry or ranged are too powerful, or even that there's too many of them.  The advantages to being ranged or cavalry are obvious (even though people tend to overlook their weaknesses). 

The problem is the autobalance system.  It stacks teams too often with cavalry or ranged being heavily skewed to one side or the other.

Fix the balance system to balance based more on class (or items equipped) than on banner balance and score alone.    Don't take out banner balance, make that the priority AFTER first making sure the classes are relatively balanced.

I notice it more when a STF clan of horse xbows gets on the server with the same banner and all 8 of them are always on the same team, and the enemy team has 0 horse archers/xbows. 
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on October 18, 2012, 10:34:54 pm
The problem is not that cavalry or ranged are too powerful, or even that there's too many of them.  The advantages to being ranged or cavalry are obvious (even though people tend to overlook their weaknesses). 

The problem is the autobalance system.  It stacks teams too often with cavalry or ranged being heavily skewed to one side or the other.

Fix the balance system to balance based more on class (or items equipped) than on banner balance and score alone.    Don't take out banner balance, make that the priority AFTER first making sure the classes are relatively balanced.

I notice it more when a STF clan of horse xbows gets on the server with the same banner and all 8 of them are always on the same team, and the enemy team has 0 horse archers/xbows.

Never thought I'd +1 huseby, but here I am doing just that. Although I personally feel that certain subclasses are OP (Such as highly agi-dominant archers), the classes themselves are not overpowered. I am no coder, but I cannot imagine that it would be a gigantic pain in the ass to code a simple system in which players who spawn with a bow are considered archers, players that spawn with a horse and a melee weapon are considered melee cavalry, and players that spawn with a horse and a ranged weapon are considered ranged cavalry. If we wanted the system to be even better, take into account the cost of the items and how heirloomed they are. I understand that there aren't that many developers of this mod, and most of them are working heavily on project asinus, but for christsake, we are not asking for any new models, animations, or anything of that ilk. Fix the autobalance system, and the mod is GREATLY improved. In fact, I'd wager to say that autobalance is the ONLY major problem with this mod currently, but it's such a huge fucking problem that it makes this mod absolutely infuriating to play a very large proportion of the time. Nothing like the team-score going 1-4 or 0-4 for several maps in a row, and instantly knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt if you're on the winning team or the losing team by the second round.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Tibe on October 19, 2012, 06:35:03 am
archery is not that OP  , OP is the number of archers  decrease number of archers=save mod

He is 100% correct. I tried archery for a bit with my alts. As I am a stupid newb who only always plays with a Greatsword, it was hard as hell for me. I killed people more in melee than I did with a bow and I keep getting shot by arrows, they arent that OP. Its just ammount of those aimbotters, not a game balance issue, since when an archer is close to a dedicated meleeplayer he/she is cooked pork.

Also I blame 2h heroism in this. Archer is a natural enemy to 2h. Ofcourse you get a entire game filled with whiners when one half of the server is 2h and the other half is archer. Both classes may occasionally have an uneven ammount in the server.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: IR_Kuoin on October 19, 2012, 10:25:28 am
One solution for sidearm crossbowers would to put a small amount of PD req. on the crossbows that don't stack up the damage. Or just increase the slot of the first xbows.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: F i n on October 19, 2012, 12:20:57 pm
i am not asking to nerff it or something but if possible to make it less attractive for people to play because soon half of players will be ranged and nobody will want to play such awesome mod as cRangedpg ( as someone said in eu 1 recently :D)

Thats what im saying. Add stamina for Infantry and Horses (Archers cant shoot accurate after running, Cant run full speed all the time, ... ). This would also make melee more interesting cus even the pro's would suffer from fighting too long and too many oponents giving the less advanced player a better chance to win a melee fight.  ---> decreasing the amount of Archers.

Also this would not nerf just one class but change the whole combat mechanics. (as the devs already proposed) 


Also Buff throwing - cus throwers are really dangerous for archers.

ATM they are too "safe". Fighting with low risk and high damage.

Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Tzar on October 19, 2012, 03:42:48 pm
Stamina would be the killer to the all ready slow paced melee action we have now after shitloads of nerfs....  :?
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: F i n on October 19, 2012, 03:45:24 pm
Stamina would be the killer to the all ready slow paced melee action we have now after shitloads of nerfs....  :?

Ofc. We'd to speed it up. If your stamina is low the speed should be like it is now :). Still. Archers should be less accurate after their every day marathon!
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Overdriven on October 19, 2012, 04:07:22 pm
I hardly ever notice enemy ranged with my hoplite, shielder or my xbow (arb+2h mace). The only time I notice it is on my 2h because no shield or cav because my horse quickly gets shot down if I'm not careful.

Latvian's server example is poor simply because small servers always attract more ranged than melee. EU4 is frequently filled with a very disproportionate amount of ranged, EU1 isn't so bad and is perfectly manageable. As others have said, I think it would be fine if the balance between the classes was more or less equal.

The other issue is the xbow. I don't understand why it has no requirements. Yeah yeah historically it was easier to use but when has crpg ever been particularly about realism? I've picked up arbalest's in strat and gotten decent numbers of kills with 0 wpf on my horse archer main. The accuracy is far to high and I also think there should be a PD like requirement as with bows. Maybe not as steep as bows, but it should be there because the number of guys lugging around xbows can be staggering sometimes.

Haven't looked through the entire thread but has joker been in yet suggesting a different game mode?  :P
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Osiris on October 19, 2012, 04:10:20 pm
far more annoying than the ever rising numbers of archers are the tons of HA and HX that seem to have infested eu1 :P and dont give me that HA dont hurt you bs because they do
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: rAve on October 19, 2012, 04:12:58 pm
I hardly ever notice enemy ranged with my hoplite, shielder or my xbow (arb+2h mace). The only time I notice it is on my 2h because no shield or cav because my horse quickly gets shot down if I'm not careful.

Latvian's server example is poor simply because small servers always attract more ranged than melee. EU4 is frequently filled with a very disproportionate amount of ranged, EU1 isn't so bad and is perfectly manageable. As others have said, I think it would be fine if the balance between the classes was more or less equal.

Haven't looked through the entire thread but has joker been in yet suggesting a different game mode?  :P

from a playerbase of 120 down to 70! aus server had to be removed cuz there weren't enough players, the mod is dying and its cuz of the amount of ranged players who simply take out the fun.
bring back Vanilla crpg!
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Overdriven on October 19, 2012, 04:14:50 pm
Or perhaps its because this is a pretty old game, other newer games are being released pretty much constantly and people are finally beginning to lose interest after grinding dozens of generations?
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Arrowblood on October 19, 2012, 04:16:08 pm
from a playerbase of 120 down to 70! aus server had to be removed cuz there weren't enough players, the mod is dying and its cuz of the amount of ranged players who simply take out the fun.
bring back Vanilla crpg!
I heard u ride a arabian warhorse so shut up pls.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: rAve on October 19, 2012, 04:21:27 pm
I heard u ride a arabian warhorse so shut up pls.

i sold the go-cart for a masterwork 2hander, only played cav one gen to try it

Or perhaps its because this is a pretty old game, other newer games are being released pretty much constantly and people are finally beginning to lose interest after grinding dozens of generations?

nah not really, as long as ppl enjoy something, they won't leave it and go play something else, true a lot of games being released, but there aren't any good action online rpgs out there like this mod (or how it used to be... )
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: F i n on October 19, 2012, 04:22:03 pm
Or perhaps its because this is a pretty old game, other newer games are being released pretty much constantly and people are finally beginning to lose interest after grinding dozens of generations?

You fuckin mad?
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Tzar on October 19, 2012, 04:23:28 pm
Just remove kiting an force them to go melee.....

Problem solved most people i know only goes archer to troll people and kite thats where they get their kicks while serious archers would be fine with removal of kiting an we would start to see archer carrying real backup weapons. Watch Guard tennoth fx only archer i know that carries backup weapon an not some silly shit 0slot ohh shit weapon

An remove Couch from the heavy lance to bring in more diversity for cav weapon choices. 

There you have just removed to two most easy fuckin ways of getting kills in cRPG..  8-) these classes are just overused because its low risk high rewards classes..

Classes that have low risk and high reward will allways be the majority
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: IR_Kuoin on October 19, 2012, 04:24:54 pm
Increase weight of bows and arrows to give the archers less "run / kite" speed?
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Latvian on October 19, 2012, 04:34:33 pm
atleast slow down archers when they draw bow because i think everyone knows that retard thingy when you follow archer but he just draws bow than runs sideways(without any speed penalty) and than turns and  shoots you without even aiming (in my case it is headshot almost 50 % (true story))
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Overdriven on October 19, 2012, 04:36:39 pm
nah not really, as long as ppl enjoy something, they won't leave it and go play something else, true a lot of games being released, but there aren't any good action online rpgs out there like this mod (or how it used to be... )

If anyone plays enough of a game they will get tired of it eventually regardless of how good it is. Considering a huge number of people here have clocked 1000's of hours it's only normal that eventually the numbers will drop with no new players really coming into it. I took a break for over 6 months at one point, hardly touching the game. Now I'm playing sporadically but with no where near as much interest as I used to because I've played so much.

I know we have some layabouts here, but for people who have a job and lives it can be difficult to play multiple games. I still have games left over from the steam summer sale which I have yet to touch because I'm slowly making my way through them. Some people may play an hour or 2 of crpg, but new games will always distract for a while. Particularly those with mp content.

atleast slow down archers when they draw bow because i think everyone knows that retard thingy when you follow archer but he just draws bow than runs sideways(without any speed penalty) and than turns and  shoots you without even aiming (in my case it is headshot almost 50 % (true story))

This I actually agree with. WotR principle.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Osiris on October 19, 2012, 05:48:45 pm
Just make range ammo looms increase stack size and not damage. Thats why ranged rapes everyone becasue they get double damage bonus
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Tears of Destiny on October 19, 2012, 06:07:41 pm
Or perhaps its because this is a pretty old game, other newer games are being released pretty much constantly and people are finally beginning to lose interest after grinding dozens of generations?


This probably, anyways NA is still thriving compared to our usual numbers, last night NA_1 was about 90 players and NA_2 about 70, Community was another couple dozen and DtV another 7. Friday and weekend nights it gets even busier.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Pejlaen on October 19, 2012, 06:08:22 pm
just got strat battle and got 75% of the time headshot time to let EU_1 go and do something else

That might have been my bad.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Ad1no on October 19, 2012, 06:29:09 pm
save crpg

nerf ranged
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Dexxtaa on October 19, 2012, 09:12:01 pm
Increase weight of bows and arrows to give the archers less "run / kite" speed?

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Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: IR_Kuoin on October 19, 2012, 09:41:00 pm
Saddest thing is, even if we make hundreds of threads on how to balance / nerf / buff archers to make it more even. It will take the devs. 12 months just to even start finding a solution.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: F i n on October 19, 2012, 09:43:34 pm
Saddest thing is, even if we make hundreds of threads on how to balance / nerf / buff archers to make it more even. It will take the devs. 12 months just to even start finding a solution.

Yes. But Buff and Nerf and Balance threads are the only things worth "gerneral-discussing" about
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Tor! on October 19, 2012, 09:56:45 pm
Killing someone in melee requires an effort and will usually take you a bit of time. Most people can block pretty well  :)

So why not just jump over the hard part and shoot them?  That's the mindset I think alot of ranged has. You often do more damage with your ranged than what most melee weapons do, and they wont be able to block you unless they have a shield.  :rolleyes:

It's simple evolution, just look at how warfare has evolved. Ranged was the winner in the end  :(
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: TurmoilTom on October 19, 2012, 10:09:19 pm
What I think the heart of the issue is concerning archery is that there is only one good way to go about making a archer build: Get 6 PD and put everything else into WM and ATH. That's it. An optimized archery build for level 30 would be 18/21. There's no disputing it. That's just how it is. It is objectively better than other archery builds.

-Higher damage at 6 PD and high WPF than 10 PD and crappy WPF
-Higher rate of fire and accuracy
-Kiting ability

If it were up to me any given archer would have to base his build around two of those three things, not all of them. Would be like this:

Want to hit like a truck and be accurate? You move like a strength build. Slowly.
Want to hit like a truck and kite? You're inaccurate as all hell.
Want to be accurate and kite? I hope you have lots of arrows, because any given dude is going to take ten of them.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: F i n on October 19, 2012, 10:09:44 pm
Killing someone in melee requires an effort and will usually take you a bit of time. Most people can block pretty well  :)

So why not just jump over the hard part and shoot them?  That's the mindset I think alot of ranged has. You often do more damage with your ranged than what most melee weapons do, and they wont be able to block you unless they have a shield.  :rolleyes:

It's simple evolution, just look at how warfare has evolved. Ranged was the winner in the end  :(

and devs are ignoring our prayers as "god" did in the dark ages. I think you're right Tor. It all makes sense now!
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: karasu on October 19, 2012, 10:14:42 pm
In a real life scenario, sparing lives makes sense even to the most braindead person.


This game isn't real life. There are mechanics and eventualities that help you obtain the balance in every scenario.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: STOPHammerTime on October 19, 2012, 10:24:01 pm
I dont want to whine, infact it annoys me when I see people on forums or in game constantly complaining but for the last few days this mod has finally started to get boring for me...

I will never quit the mod and if I did I dont think I would feel the need to notify everyone about it but I have noticed that It no longer draws me in like it used to and for me it is mainly because servers are gradually getting full of clones.

All melee seems to now involve a shield and all range is becoming archer dominated, whilst the cav continues to sweep around the map killing anyone brave enough to try anything that leaves them remotley unguarded for a few seconds.

This is only my opinion and im pretty much certain its biased due to me being a foolish pure thrower but it sure feels like interesting and challenging builds are disappearing from the game but like Tor says why would anyone do it when there are far easier ways to get kills in this game?


Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: F i n on October 19, 2012, 10:28:46 pm
I dont want to whine, infact it annoys me when I see people on forums or in game constantly complaining but for the last few days this mod has finally started to get boring for me...

I will never quit the mod and if I did I dont think I would feel the need to notify everyone about it but I have noticed that It no longer draws me in like it used to and for me it is mainly because servers are gradually getting full of clones.

All melee seems to now involve a shield and all range is becoming archer dominated, whilst the cav continues to sweep around the map killing anyone brave enough to try anything that leaves them remotley unguarded for a few seconds.

This is only my opinion and im pretty much certain its biased due to me being a foolish pure thrower but it sure feels like interesting and challenging builds are disappearing from the game but like Tor says why would anyone do it when there are far easier ways to get kills in this game?

I share your opinion a 100%! (And am a thrower too)

Haven't played for 3 days now. Just cant be arsed.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Tibe on October 19, 2012, 10:39:02 pm

This is only my opinion and im pretty much certain its biased due to me being a foolish pure thrower but it sure feels like interesting and challenging builds are disappearing from the game but like Tor says why would anyone do it when there are far easier ways to get kills in this game?

What are the challenging builds? Greatsword? maul? cbow? I can guarantee you there arent many builds that are waaaay more challenging than others. Mybe only HA, but thats just about it. Cbow is pretty damn easy. Mauling just needs you to time your hits right etc. The massive archer problem is beatable and dependant on map. I can say, that many archers have quite predictable paths they move from round to round and gives easy ways to backstab them in the face with my 2h. But thats just me, normally I try to learn a lesson after catching an arrow with my teeth. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Tears of Destiny on October 19, 2012, 10:40:58 pm
The massive archer problem is beatable and dependant on map. I can say, that many archers have quite predictable paths they move from round to round and gives easy ways to backstab them in the face with my 2h.
This is disgustingly true, after blowing almost a hundred million experience on playing an archer I have to say I can just glance at a map, new or old, and automatically know where all the sensible archers will be and what type they will be, and backstab with a melee.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: peter_afca7 on October 19, 2012, 10:44:26 pm
That might have been my bad.
it was, result break for EU_1 and little bit of play on EU_2 not FUN anymore spawn get headshot and wait for few minutes to spawn and get another headshot CBA anymore
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Latvian on October 19, 2012, 11:37:46 pm
What are the challenging builds? Greatsword? maul? cbow? I can guarantee you there arent many builds that are waaaay more challenging than others. Mybe only HA, but thats just about it. Cbow is pretty damn easy. Mauling just needs you to time your hits right etc. The massive archer problem is beatable and dependant on map. I can say, that many archers have quite predictable paths they move from round to round and gives easy ways to backstab them in the face with my 2h. But thats just me, normally I try to learn a lesson after catching an arrow with my teeth. :rolleyes:
you sir write nonsens  for example mauler easy mode? what?  almost anything can outspam you, due to your high strenght which is required for effective mauling you are also slow so everyone can catch you and it does take skill to even hit enemy and to do at least basic feint due to unbalanced weapon. Second, backstabbing archers? tr to to that on maps with roofs awailable where is 5-10 archers camping   go ahead  try to sneak to them i will be happy to see you doing that  :wink:
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: bilwit on October 19, 2012, 11:46:35 pm
Killing someone in melee requires an effort and will usually take you a bit of time. Most people can block pretty well  :)

So why not just jump over the hard part and shoot them?  That's the mindset I think alot of ranged has. You often do more damage with your ranged than what most melee weapons do, and they wont be able to block you unless they have a shield.  :rolleyes:

It's simple evolution, just look at how warfare has evolved. Ranged was the winner in the end  :(

Well ranged isn't easy especially if the goal is to be a statwhore hero so it's not like it's unbalanced. The problem is that it appeals to a lot of people for some reason so there's a ton of them out there.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Templar_Ratigan on October 20, 2012, 11:54:34 am
I hope the mod team ignore every inch of this thread. People here dont learn.

You think you are balancing the game...but in fact you are destroying it, mauling it, mutating it and turning it into a parody of itself. You only think of the immediate problem that adheres to YOUR position...you cannot see the forest for the trees.

This is proof that human beings just want to be ruled and subjugated. You are given freedom of choice in a game...and then day by day you whittle it away and throw it in the bin all in the name of what you call 'balance'.

But you dont really want balance....you people want superiority. It's about pride and the belief that what you do and play with is somehow better and more difficult than anyone else's choice.

In older patches people didnt notice such things...why? Because they just did whatever their minds could come up with...people had ridiculous bow-builds...but then the melee players had ridiculous armour and shields and weapons.

And yet that was still whined about and thrown away; you dug your own hole. Take the responsibility and fucking lie in it.

Im still amazed really...this happened before, remember? Interestingly enough im surprised people seem to think that it was only melee players improving their skills all this time....

Ps: Not surprised at the down votes. People get defensive when something hits close to home.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Bonze on October 20, 2012, 12:57:18 pm
Saddest thing is, even if we make hundreds of threads on how to balance / nerf / buff archers to make it more even. .

So trueeee
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Thedric on October 20, 2012, 01:37:15 pm
I dont know if its just my shitty luck that puts me up against uber-archers or if they really are that OP. Basically Im running around in my +40 armour (that can withstand 2-3 hits from a 2h) minding my own business, killing peasants or whatever and then BAM! I get 2 arrows in the chest and im dead  :(. That would be ok if only I could catch those fuckers, but it seems my 5ath is only good for catching noobs with low lvl bows. This does not seem right to me.

Im not saying archers should be nerfed into oblivion (although I could certainly live with that), but something has to be done. Remove stagger when hitting heavier armors, make em have to stop before firing... just give us something.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: rAve on October 20, 2012, 01:52:00 pm
i can't see why ppl keep crying about "realism" and "evolution of warfare".
ffs you're playing a game and trying to have fun, if u dont like fun just go away!
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Quinnie on October 21, 2012, 03:24:52 am
Solutions to your problem:
1) Be a shielder.
2) Learn to dodge.
3) Be your own worst ranged enemy.
4) GTX.

If you can do none of those, then deal with it.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Artyem on October 21, 2012, 07:50:28 pm
(click to show/hide)

Two visible axes in the horse, one in the rider.  There were like three more on the other side of the horse.

(click to show/hide)

Axe in the eye.

(click to show/hide)

I don't even know how I survived that.

(click to show/hide)

Don't mind the horse made of god over here, it just has a lance in it's eye.


I used to have an abundance of screenshots like those, but somehow they disappeared...
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Havoco on October 22, 2012, 04:08:35 am
Well ranged isn't easy especially if the goal is to be a statwhore hero so it's not like it's unbalanced. The problem is that it appeals to a lot of people for some reason so there's a ton of them out there.

Believe it or not some ppl don't like being in a melee fight for 20+ seconds to kill one person. I have been archer for about 15 gens and recently switched to melee last gen. I'm sry sometimes melee can be fun but sometimes u gotta feel the need to be risky and go for the glass cannon build.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Grumbs on October 22, 2012, 04:09:25 am
From a melee perspective, I think the main thing people dislike with ranged is that the counters are all purely defensive counters, and even then they are weak from a gameplay perspective. Conversely when ranged is in melee range there's a sense of them having their cake and eating it too. The tables don't turn and suddenly the ranged can only do some weak defensive counters. The ranged player can negate 100% of your damage, just like you can theirs, and in the case of crossbowmen they are virtually 100% as effective as a pure melee player while in melee range (depending on the crossbow, 2 slot xbows are a bit different). This is if you manage to force a melee fight. If not the bowman can just kite forever. This is not fun gameplay for the sort of people who want to play a medieval combat style game

The defensive counters to ranged either involve holding a shield up, physically avoiding the entire class or trusting the ranged player to miss his shots, which puts the emphasis on the enemy's aim rather than your own skill. Don't talk about dodging when you move so slow, its still about how good the player is with aiming and judging the enemy player's movements. At his point it is not player vs player. The counters to ranged are more ranged or to play in a fashion that is not fun to play. It promotes boring stalemates or simply avoiding an entire class.

Then we have ranged while on a horse. Thats just beyond a joke to me. I can't even imagine the psychology involved with people who play ranged on cav, its like shooting fish in a barrel, or its about stroking ones ego. Especially towards the end of the round when one team has no cav or ranged whiled the other has some ranged cav. Put any idiot in that ranged cav position and he will do as well as any other. At this point again its not about player skill, but people having put their cards on the table, and it plays out in a predictable fashion. This is not fun and dynamic gameplay like with melee vs melee combat. It stale and boring, and not player vs player.

Then on top of this we can analyse the actual skill involved in a ranged shot. In the case of crossbows with high WPF or looms, its literally point and click. For bows its a bit different but they can shoot over and over (and thus fail over and over) and the one time they hit they can kill or do decent damage. The ranged combat mechanics are just so far behind the melee in terms of depth and negative consequences for making mistakes, it adds that extra bit of dislike for players.

Tackling this isn't easy though..people will always want to play ranged whether its nerfed to the ground or not, just because there will always be a sense of being able to be detached from the action while still feeling involved in some way. That to me is one of the key things that draws people to ranged. You can do literally F-all while still feeling like you aren't just standing around doing nothing. To other player's perspective you are involved in combat and doing something, there is no requirement for you to be actually doing something useful. Its hard to determine just how much of an influence a player has on a team while playing ranged, and you can do that with minimal effort. Just move a bit out of spawn and pewpew. This is a mentality that is appealing to players that just want to grind out generations, and to not feel like they are doing nothing while getting xp. So it doesn't matter how much you nerf them to some extent it terms of damage. That isn't the issue imo. They are not OP in terms of damage, they are just not fun to counter and promote boring gameplay that doesn't really reward player skill like it could.

If I were to balance them I would try to combat that passive gameplay so many ranged players go for. Make them squishy as hell and easy for cav to counter, get rid of crutch mechanics like knockdown on tiny hammers. Make them have to consider their positioning more, to take a more active role in the team at all times. Make them slower so they can't kite so easily, make the actual shots have to be carefully considered more from an ammo perspective, as well as making the shot hard to make from a player skill perspective. Of and create more counters to ranged cav or make it simply harder to play.

I don't want to belittle ranged players though. I have fault with the game rather than players..people will always only play the game as its designed, and that involves taking the line of least resistance, what they find fun (regardless of balance) and play to win the rounds through whatever means necessary
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Adamar on October 22, 2012, 04:57:39 am
If I were to balance them I would try to combat that passive gameplay so many ranged players go for. Make them squishy as hell and easy for cav to counter, get rid of crutch mechanics like knockdown on tiny hammers. Make them have to consider their positioning more, to take a more active role in the team at all times. Make them slower so they can't kite so easily, make the actual shots have to be carefully considered more from an ammo perspective, as well as making the shot hard to make from a player skill perspective. Of and create more counters to ranged cav or make it simply harder to play.

 That doesn't make sence. Nerfing an archer's melee ability makes them kite more. You'd be weeding out what few good ballanced archers are out there, leaving all the pure kiters behind.

I've said it before, make non kiting builds the most efficient in archer vs archer situations.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Grumbs on October 22, 2012, 06:17:48 pm
They were general suggestions rather than that I would necessarily implement all of them at once. If I could choose a couple simple changes it would be less ammo and slower movement speed.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Adamar on October 22, 2012, 08:14:37 pm
They were general suggestions rather than that I would necessarily implement all of them at once. If I could choose a couple simple changes it would be less ammo and slower movement speed.

Less ammo would only drive people to drop their melee weapon in favour of an extra quiver.

Slower movement speed would disencourage the use of any armor, and thus force kiting.

You need to see this from an archer's prespective. The only solution that doesn't envolve nerfing archery is making melee able\non kitting archers the most efficient within the class. It's not difficult, but skillless meleers dont want to fight melee able archers any more than they want to chase after kitters. What most people really want is to make archers stand there and die, without doing what they're supposed to do.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Grumbs on October 22, 2012, 08:45:49 pm
The combination of slower movement and less ammo would encourage or force people to enter melee combat more. People could go with no melee weapon at all, which would force them to put more thought into their positioning, but I think actually people would want to be able to defend themselves especially with slower movement. If someone wants to play pure kite archer they could, but they would get some more negative consequences for that build type than now.

I don't think people can reduce their armour much from what they use now in order to move faster

Quivers can weight more and carry less ammo. Bows can weigh more

You can tweak mechanics so you need to stop in order to draw your bow. Things like that are also options
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Tore on October 22, 2012, 08:54:01 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Tzar on October 22, 2012, 08:54:51 pm
Less ammo would only drive people to drop their melee weapon in favour of an extra quiver.

Slower movement speed would disencourage the use of any armor, and thus force kiting.

You need to see this from an archer's prespective. The only solution that doesn't envolve nerfing archery is making melee able\non kitting archers the most efficient within the class. It's not difficult, but skillless meleers dont want to fight melee able archers any more than they want to chase after kitters. What most people really want is to make archers stand there and die, without doing what they're supposed to do.

Haha this guy.... lol just... lol

Makes no sense what you just said man hahahaha so your saying that if archers where forced to engage en melee combat thx to not being able to run an kite they would kite more???

What a bunch of gibberish... i think i can count the total amount of archers that carry a 1slot melee weapon at this stage now on 1 hand.....
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Adamar on October 22, 2012, 09:01:43 pm
The combination of slower movement and less ammo would encourage or force people to enter melee combat more. People could go with no melee weapon at all, which would force them to put more thought into their positioning, but I think actually people would want to be able to defend themselves especially with slower movement. If someone wants to play pure kite archer they could, but they would get some more negative consequences for that build type than now.

I don't think people can reduce their armour much from what they use now in order to move faster

Quivers can weight more and carry less ammo. Bows can weigh more

You can tweak mechanics so you need to stop in order to draw your bow. Things like that are also options

Not being able to move properly places you at a huge disadvantage in melee. If you know you're gonna die once the enemy reaches you, you'll run. Again, making archers less melee able means they'll be less inclined to melee.
Haha this guy.... lol just... lol

Makes no sense what you just said man hahahaha so your saying that if archers where forced to engage en melee combat thx to not being able to run an kite they would kite more???

What a bunch of gibberish... i think i can count the total amount of archers that carry a 1slot melee weapon at this stage now on 1 hand.....

Im saying nerfing archers more isn't the solution. Stop trolling, grow up, learn to play and maybe try proposing something useful.
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Tzar on October 22, 2012, 09:03:43 pm
herpa derp derp

Plz...
Title: Re: sad but true
Post by: Torben on October 22, 2012, 09:09:04 pm
It is indeed fun to feel those tears. However it's dire being infantry in the team with almost no ranged facing an archer stack. I'm not complaining about the power of ranged, I just don't find melee fun anymore because of it. I rather play ranged along with the rest, since it's brings more fun than frustration, the opposite of melee. Siege and DtV is nice as infantry, but can't stand battle anymore.

Like I said, not complaining about it, just joining the fun with the rest. :)

well,  since you left the battle server,  ranged numbers are decreasing.  after all,  it was your openis (thats right)  that made everyone wanna fight like fairies instead of getting their hands dirty whilst getting poked to death by you :D