Author Topic: sad but true  (Read 7132 times)

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Offline Bonze

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Re: sad but true
« Reply #75 on: October 20, 2012, 12:57:18 pm »
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Saddest thing is, even if we make hundreds of threads on how to balance / nerf / buff archers to make it more even. .

So trueeee
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Offline Thedric

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Re: sad but true
« Reply #76 on: October 20, 2012, 01:37:15 pm »
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I dont know if its just my shitty luck that puts me up against uber-archers or if they really are that OP. Basically Im running around in my +40 armour (that can withstand 2-3 hits from a 2h) minding my own business, killing peasants or whatever and then BAM! I get 2 arrows in the chest and im dead  :(. That would be ok if only I could catch those fuckers, but it seems my 5ath is only good for catching noobs with low lvl bows. This does not seem right to me.

Im not saying archers should be nerfed into oblivion (although I could certainly live with that), but something has to be done. Remove stagger when hitting heavier armors, make em have to stop before firing... just give us something.

Offline rAve

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Re: sad but true
« Reply #77 on: October 20, 2012, 01:52:00 pm »
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i can't see why ppl keep crying about "realism" and "evolution of warfare".
ffs you're playing a game and trying to have fun, if u dont like fun just go away!

Offline Quinnie

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Re: sad but true
« Reply #78 on: October 21, 2012, 03:24:52 am »
-6
Solutions to your problem:
1) Be a shielder.
2) Learn to dodge.
3) Be your own worst ranged enemy.
4) GTX.

If you can do none of those, then deal with it.
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Offline Artyem

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Re: sad but true
« Reply #79 on: October 21, 2012, 07:50:28 pm »
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(click to show/hide)

Two visible axes in the horse, one in the rider.  There were like three more on the other side of the horse.

(click to show/hide)

Axe in the eye.

(click to show/hide)

I don't even know how I survived that.

(click to show/hide)

Don't mind the horse made of god over here, it just has a lance in it's eye.


I used to have an abundance of screenshots like those, but somehow they disappeared...
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Offline Havoco

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Re: sad but true
« Reply #80 on: October 22, 2012, 04:08:35 am »
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Well ranged isn't easy especially if the goal is to be a statwhore hero so it's not like it's unbalanced. The problem is that it appeals to a lot of people for some reason so there's a ton of them out there.

Believe it or not some ppl don't like being in a melee fight for 20+ seconds to kill one person. I have been archer for about 15 gens and recently switched to melee last gen. I'm sry sometimes melee can be fun but sometimes u gotta feel the need to be risky and go for the glass cannon build.
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Offline Grumbs

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Re: sad but true
« Reply #81 on: October 22, 2012, 04:09:25 am »
+6
From a melee perspective, I think the main thing people dislike with ranged is that the counters are all purely defensive counters, and even then they are weak from a gameplay perspective. Conversely when ranged is in melee range there's a sense of them having their cake and eating it too. The tables don't turn and suddenly the ranged can only do some weak defensive counters. The ranged player can negate 100% of your damage, just like you can theirs, and in the case of crossbowmen they are virtually 100% as effective as a pure melee player while in melee range (depending on the crossbow, 2 slot xbows are a bit different). This is if you manage to force a melee fight. If not the bowman can just kite forever. This is not fun gameplay for the sort of people who want to play a medieval combat style game

The defensive counters to ranged either involve holding a shield up, physically avoiding the entire class or trusting the ranged player to miss his shots, which puts the emphasis on the enemy's aim rather than your own skill. Don't talk about dodging when you move so slow, its still about how good the player is with aiming and judging the enemy player's movements. At his point it is not player vs player. The counters to ranged are more ranged or to play in a fashion that is not fun to play. It promotes boring stalemates or simply avoiding an entire class.

Then we have ranged while on a horse. Thats just beyond a joke to me. I can't even imagine the psychology involved with people who play ranged on cav, its like shooting fish in a barrel, or its about stroking ones ego. Especially towards the end of the round when one team has no cav or ranged whiled the other has some ranged cav. Put any idiot in that ranged cav position and he will do as well as any other. At this point again its not about player skill, but people having put their cards on the table, and it plays out in a predictable fashion. This is not fun and dynamic gameplay like with melee vs melee combat. It stale and boring, and not player vs player.

Then on top of this we can analyse the actual skill involved in a ranged shot. In the case of crossbows with high WPF or looms, its literally point and click. For bows its a bit different but they can shoot over and over (and thus fail over and over) and the one time they hit they can kill or do decent damage. The ranged combat mechanics are just so far behind the melee in terms of depth and negative consequences for making mistakes, it adds that extra bit of dislike for players.

Tackling this isn't easy though..people will always want to play ranged whether its nerfed to the ground or not, just because there will always be a sense of being able to be detached from the action while still feeling involved in some way. That to me is one of the key things that draws people to ranged. You can do literally F-all while still feeling like you aren't just standing around doing nothing. To other player's perspective you are involved in combat and doing something, there is no requirement for you to be actually doing something useful. Its hard to determine just how much of an influence a player has on a team while playing ranged, and you can do that with minimal effort. Just move a bit out of spawn and pewpew. This is a mentality that is appealing to players that just want to grind out generations, and to not feel like they are doing nothing while getting xp. So it doesn't matter how much you nerf them to some extent it terms of damage. That isn't the issue imo. They are not OP in terms of damage, they are just not fun to counter and promote boring gameplay that doesn't really reward player skill like it could.

If I were to balance them I would try to combat that passive gameplay so many ranged players go for. Make them squishy as hell and easy for cav to counter, get rid of crutch mechanics like knockdown on tiny hammers. Make them have to consider their positioning more, to take a more active role in the team at all times. Make them slower so they can't kite so easily, make the actual shots have to be carefully considered more from an ammo perspective, as well as making the shot hard to make from a player skill perspective. Of and create more counters to ranged cav or make it simply harder to play.

I don't want to belittle ranged players though. I have fault with the game rather than players..people will always only play the game as its designed, and that involves taking the line of least resistance, what they find fun (regardless of balance) and play to win the rounds through whatever means necessary
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Offline Adamar

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Re: sad but true
« Reply #82 on: October 22, 2012, 04:57:39 am »
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If I were to balance them I would try to combat that passive gameplay so many ranged players go for. Make them squishy as hell and easy for cav to counter, get rid of crutch mechanics like knockdown on tiny hammers. Make them have to consider their positioning more, to take a more active role in the team at all times. Make them slower so they can't kite so easily, make the actual shots have to be carefully considered more from an ammo perspective, as well as making the shot hard to make from a player skill perspective. Of and create more counters to ranged cav or make it simply harder to play.

 That doesn't make sence. Nerfing an archer's melee ability makes them kite more. You'd be weeding out what few good ballanced archers are out there, leaving all the pure kiters behind.

I've said it before, make non kiting builds the most efficient in archer vs archer situations.

Offline Grumbs

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Re: sad but true
« Reply #83 on: October 22, 2012, 06:17:48 pm »
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They were general suggestions rather than that I would necessarily implement all of them at once. If I could choose a couple simple changes it would be less ammo and slower movement speed.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 06:34:26 pm by Grumbs »
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Offline Adamar

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Re: sad but true
« Reply #84 on: October 22, 2012, 08:14:37 pm »
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They were general suggestions rather than that I would necessarily implement all of them at once. If I could choose a couple simple changes it would be less ammo and slower movement speed.

Less ammo would only drive people to drop their melee weapon in favour of an extra quiver.

Slower movement speed would disencourage the use of any armor, and thus force kiting.

You need to see this from an archer's prespective. The only solution that doesn't envolve nerfing archery is making melee able\non kitting archers the most efficient within the class. It's not difficult, but skillless meleers dont want to fight melee able archers any more than they want to chase after kitters. What most people really want is to make archers stand there and die, without doing what they're supposed to do.

Offline Grumbs

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Re: sad but true
« Reply #85 on: October 22, 2012, 08:45:49 pm »
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The combination of slower movement and less ammo would encourage or force people to enter melee combat more. People could go with no melee weapon at all, which would force them to put more thought into their positioning, but I think actually people would want to be able to defend themselves especially with slower movement. If someone wants to play pure kite archer they could, but they would get some more negative consequences for that build type than now.

I don't think people can reduce their armour much from what they use now in order to move faster

Quivers can weight more and carry less ammo. Bows can weigh more

You can tweak mechanics so you need to stop in order to draw your bow. Things like that are also options
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Offline Tore

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Re: sad but true
« Reply #86 on: October 22, 2012, 08:54:01 pm »
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Offline Tzar

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Re: sad but true
« Reply #87 on: October 22, 2012, 08:54:51 pm »
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Less ammo would only drive people to drop their melee weapon in favour of an extra quiver.

Slower movement speed would disencourage the use of any armor, and thus force kiting.

You need to see this from an archer's prespective. The only solution that doesn't envolve nerfing archery is making melee able\non kitting archers the most efficient within the class. It's not difficult, but skillless meleers dont want to fight melee able archers any more than they want to chase after kitters. What most people really want is to make archers stand there and die, without doing what they're supposed to do.

Haha this guy.... lol just... lol

Makes no sense what you just said man hahahaha so your saying that if archers where forced to engage en melee combat thx to not being able to run an kite they would kite more???

What a bunch of gibberish... i think i can count the total amount of archers that carry a 1slot melee weapon at this stage now on 1 hand.....
I've never played a server where people split up as much or as often as on EU1.  No wonder range is having a field day.

Offline Adamar

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Re: sad but true
« Reply #88 on: October 22, 2012, 09:01:43 pm »
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The combination of slower movement and less ammo would encourage or force people to enter melee combat more. People could go with no melee weapon at all, which would force them to put more thought into their positioning, but I think actually people would want to be able to defend themselves especially with slower movement. If someone wants to play pure kite archer they could, but they would get some more negative consequences for that build type than now.

I don't think people can reduce their armour much from what they use now in order to move faster

Quivers can weight more and carry less ammo. Bows can weigh more

You can tweak mechanics so you need to stop in order to draw your bow. Things like that are also options

Not being able to move properly places you at a huge disadvantage in melee. If you know you're gonna die once the enemy reaches you, you'll run. Again, making archers less melee able means they'll be less inclined to melee.
Haha this guy.... lol just... lol

Makes no sense what you just said man hahahaha so your saying that if archers where forced to engage en melee combat thx to not being able to run an kite they would kite more???

What a bunch of gibberish... i think i can count the total amount of archers that carry a 1slot melee weapon at this stage now on 1 hand.....

Im saying nerfing archers more isn't the solution. Stop trolling, grow up, learn to play and maybe try proposing something useful.

Offline Tzar

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Re: sad but true
« Reply #89 on: October 22, 2012, 09:03:43 pm »
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I've never played a server where people split up as much or as often as on EU1.  No wonder range is having a field day.