In before this thread is consumed in flames
What about the other side, Thovex? You can't be friendly with them? "No grudges carried over" etc, that's what okiN said. I think that Strategus can be a friendly thing even with factions that are at war, I don't think this extreme us-against-them mentality is good either.
Yet it's in the human nature, so what can one do?
Everyone has their own perspective about previous rounds, even mine was coloured with some resentment of LLJK in Strat 1 when I was in Shogunate. So what makes every subsequent round any different? It doesn't, I think grudges are carried over forever until someone attemtps to communicate the other party that they're willing to be friendly. And this has not happened ever since The Union joined UIF after almost getting wiped by DRZ, but that was to save their own asses.
As long as we have this distrust contra trust for two large blocs, it will carry on forever.
Maybe it would be better for everyone if they mixed the two blocs with each other just to see what it's like fighting with people you don't "trust". :lol:
I felt like I was part of a criminal conspiracy with Turks, Italians, and Russians who often seemed to not trust each other but had to work together to win a war.
Fallen "-" team is engaging smooth
Its not possible to talk about truth which is two sided as always anyway this thread will be spammed to death ; you know why ?
UIF dont have forum warriors =)
UIF dont have forum warriors =)
Clans who also had shit experiences dealing with people like Fallen, Templars, Shogunate, The Northern Empire, and many other factions that were all about lying and manipulating players or cheating and exploiting game mechanics to win. They had common enemies with us, and only together did we come close to having a chance to win a war.
Oh you do try Cicero. You're just not very good at it.
I expected to find a solution or similar, since you wrote "What to do?". Meh, didn't find any of that. Any ideas?
btw, the only reason I'm -1ing the op is because:
This is a lie.(click to show/hide)
Is that why you got carpet bombed by chadz? Derp
Did we get bombed in strat 2.0?Alaaddin fucked you up =)
Did we get bombed in strat 2.0?
Ahahaha, carbet bombed, good one!
Is that why you got carpet bombed by chadz? Derp
No you got bombed in 3.0 which has nothing to do with Smoothrich's assertion Fallen has lied and tried manipulating clans. Try again or should we bring up how you lied about your Northern Empire payoff to not merc for LLJK?
Well it was not me who brought up the bombing, as for the rest I'll just stay out of this because I'm rather clueless about Strat 2.0 8-)
Now Smooth, what you describe in the OP, sounds like some good Strategus gameplay, except the lying, crying and cheating parts. There was dynamic diplomacy going on. Secret conspiracies, reactions and what not. That is what Strategus should be like. Machiavellian power politics. That is not at all what is going on now. Last Strat was stale as fuck, this Strat is stale as fuck. Cause everyone claims they are going to start with a clean slate, but a week later they are in the same fucking alliance occupying the same fucking territory.
No you got bombed in 3.0 which has nothing to do with Smoothrich's assertion Fallen has lied and tried manipulating clans. Try again or should we bring up howyouFallen lied about your Northern Empire payoff to not merc for LLJK?
I'm very interested in this particular story, because I think you got it wrong. What is your point of view?
Fallen "-" team is engaging smooth
Its not possible to talk about truth which is two sided as always anyway this thread will be spammed to death ; you know why ?
UIF dont have forum warriors =)
And that shows how we play the game =)
Fair enough, I should have said Fallen instead of you specifically 8-)Yes, ofcourse it's on a way too big scale. But atleast these alliances was formed with a clear goal, wiping out LLJK. Then a counter alliance was formed by LLJK, to ensure survival and beat the aggressors. Atleast those were purposeful alliances, instead of the 'let's all hold hands so no one can ever attack us unless they make an enormous alliance themselves' approach. If those alliances would've been disbanded for the next Strat, if everyone would've actually started with a clean slate and if people wouldn't hold grudges over a game, the next round of Strat wouldn't have been doomed.
e:
SgtTeeth what Smoothrich was describing is pretty much what you are railing against, 9-10 clans or whatever the final tally was joining up to make a mega-alliance to wipe us out. Thanks to game design and Superior Goon Tactics™ we survived, but I would think you agree 10 clans to make an alliance is the exact problem?
That's how its always been before, and how all alliances should be. No need to be paralysed in fear and inaction, or to only attack smaller clans in 5 to 1 stomps, or to proxy war by funnelling endless supplies to another clan so they faceroll themsleves to a win. NA or EU, alliance or independent, vassal or master, play the game, fight some battles, and have fun, you pussies.Sadly that is exactly what UIF did in Strat 3 and they would do it again in Strat 4, werent it that all the remaining clans did the sensible, but cowardly thing to make their own mega alliance. UIF are quite the pussies. All the other big clans pussied out of fighting the mega alliance on their own. The only non pussies now are the UDNWSFLC and some other very small groups of players. YEAH!
Stupid yanks forgetting that the UIF have been allied since the first strategus and that's where their name comes from.Yeah, listened to that sound file and UIF was already mentioned before this Shogunate, SoA, Templar alliance was formed. It also seems like LLJK was a mega alliance in itself, with them having 150 players, rendering them a superpower that could simply only be countered by allying with others.
They had common enemies with us, and only together did we come close to having a chance to win a war.150 LLJK, versus Shogunate, SeaRaiders, Templars, VRN, The Northern Empire and SoA as far as this audio track tells me. Shogunate was never a big clan, Templars wasn't back then. The other clans weren't all that big either, no clue about the Northern Empire though. Sounds like 150 LLJK + UIF had a pretty fucking huge chance of winning the war. Ah well, I wasn't there, don't remember exactly how big each faction was. But it's rather clear to me that that alliance that you accuse of spawning the UIF we have now, was rather formed as a reaction to the enormous amount of members that LLJK had. Besides UIF already existed before the anti-LLJK alliance.
Yeah, listened to that sound file and UIF was already mentioned before this Shogunate, SoA, Templar alliance was formed. It also seems like LLJK was a mega alliance in itself, with them having 150 players, rendering them a superpower that could simply only be countered by allying with others.
150 LLJK, versus Shogunate, SeaRaiders, Templars, VRN, The Northern Empire and SoA as far as this audio track tells me. Shogunate was never a big clan, Templars wasn't back then. The other clans weren't all that big either, no clue about the Northern Empire though. Sounds like 150 LLJK + UIF had a pretty fucking huge chance of winning the war. Ah well, I wasn't there, don't remember exactly how big each faction was. But it's rather clear to me that that alliance that you accuse of spawning the UIF we have now, was rather formed as a reaction to the enormous amount of members that LLJK had. Besides UIF already existed before the anti-LLJK alliance.
So LLJK is to blame?
Yeah, listened to that sound file and UIF was already mentioned before this Shogunate, SoA, Templar alliance was formed.for fuck sake who the fuck you are to talk about strategus
Alright, I get that the information about your player numbers provided by your then enemies might not be entirely correct, seeing as we didn't have a neat player count like we do now. Regardless, it did not seem like the 5 clans that were talked about in the audio file were confident about beating you with anything less than the full support of those 5 clans, so I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have had the slightest chance on their own. Not sure what made LLJK so fearsome then, it clearly wasn't player skill they were worried about, but an alliance seemed neccesary for survival of any of those clans, simply because LLJK was in a seemingly different league, power-wise.
Not supporting any of the cheating, lying and backstabbing, if that took place. But seems like that first alliance was formed because of a threat as much as the LLJK-UIF alliance. I just don't really see why them forming their alliance was so much worse than you forming yours.
for fuck sake who the fuck you are to talk about strategus
simple question who are you ?
How do you know every fuckin thing ?
U dont even know which factions were in shogunate alliance
Kapikulu ( which gave near 5k troops ) at least 40
Pillagers ( which totally did better job than byzantium ) same with byzantium
Seariders at least 30
Den Bitre 20
SoA
Templar 40
Guards 40
So you didn't get paid by Ecko who was the leader of the Northern Empire to stop mercing for us as the Fallen Archer brigade? That's my point of view that was confirmed. I would like to hear your story of how that's not what happened.
for fuck sake who the fuck you are to talk about strategus
simple question who are you ?
How do you know every fuckin thing ?
U dont even know which factions were in shogunate alliance
Kapikulu ( which gave near 5k troops ) at least 40
Pillagers ( which totally did better job than byzantium ) same with byzantium
Seariders at least 30
Den Bitre 20
SoA
Templar 40
Guards 40
Simply put we beat up Acre in a fight and took their fief, and claimed dominion over Shariz and that section of the desert. The shogunate, remembering us from Strategus 1, did not want to have us as neighbors and called in the support of several smaller clans to become puppet states in this area, to squabble amongst themselves after we had been evicted.
It was honestly pretty close, despite 3 of the 5 clans not participating any more than showing up for the fights. With 5 vs 1 it would have been much more difficult. The northern empire didn't do much but that was mainly due to large issues on the homefront.
SoA was our insider, through the leader of the SoA I learned about the plot. They did not help the Shogunate.
The Northern Empire(ATS, Hospitaller, Occitan) brought a 1000 man stack down to fight, I believe they fought at least two battles but they did not send reinforcements and left or were defeated.
The Pecores probably contributed the most, and if they would have waited to start the war with a more solid industrial footing they would have been in a much better position.
The shogunate contributed, but from such a far distance it was slow and they did not invest much in the venture.
The VRN, SeaRaiders, Acre, and other small clans were knocked out as soon as their army even fought a battle as they had no way to replenish their numbers or equipment. The Sea Raiders never even bothered to fight, but constantly had a 1,000 man army ready to attack our southern villages.
LLJK was able to secure victory via many defensive advantages and being able to outlast all other competitors. The villages around Shariz are all very close together, and you could transfer troops/gold/equipment between them without even leaving the fief. Resulting in a daisy chain to put what was needed where it was needed, to more efficiently fight 3 armies at once. Fighting on the home field also gave us a ping advantage, though in those situations the Northern Empire did contribute a lot of mercs.
LLJK also had a large pool of mercs, paying Chaos, FCC, and others to fight for us. In a situation where our battle roster was hacked and we had only LLJK players (and one merc), we lost. Despite having a ticket, advantage and almost the same number of players. With one single goon receiving a score of 0 kills and 50 deaths.
In situations where LLJK was set on the offensive, we mostly lost. It took us months of sieging the Pecores and forcing them to fight at 6am local time 4 nights in a row (the third night was cancelled and delayed a day due to chadz) before we were able to win. And they still managed to cause problems for us after losing their fief, like some terrible french insurgency.
We were also able to snag castles and Shariz in silly fights of 20 men versus 60 due to outright bribery.
We basically won by default since everyone else gave up and Shogunate home territory had been invaded.
Strat 2 was probably the most fun, and I hope Strat 4 has a repeat of those events.
Though the battle i remember most fondly was probably in strat 3, when the HATE clan attacked a 300 strong neutral village with 900 troops and lost.
I can't say much for numbers, but we definitely did not have that many active ones, we had roughly 10 people per fief grinding troops/gold and with 5 fiefs that would put us at around 50. And we had to squeeze those 50 and hound on them daily to turn in their gold and troops to the village so the local lord could transfer them to the three main armies commanded by myself, Gaga, and Smoothrich.
What a delightful, honest and objective recollection of events. Although I am not entirely sure what the relevancy is, I thought it was a very good read. So you basically won the defensive war on your own and the alliance with UIF was formed when you went on the offensive, because you and the UIF thought the attacking clans were not to be trusted?(click to show/hide)
What does that have to do with anything I said? Would you do everyone a favour Cicero and get your ass out of this thread? It seems like everyone has moved on, buried their grudges over something that happened so long ago, in a fucking game, case and point PhantomZero, until you enter one of these strat threads and start spewing your full retard crap.(click to show/hide)
HA HA, Cicero, seriously, you mean PEOPLE? DeBitre 20, SeaRaiders 30, then you're out of your mind! :Di am pretty sure i saw a guy from De Bitre in Ruldi with 1000 troops 1 day later was in Ruldi Garnison =)
SeaRaiders had about 2 people participating in average in terms of roster sign-ups and no one doing anything in terms of Strategus map activity. Hardly more than a handful in total doing anything in the beginning as well (before the war broke out).
De Bitre had 1 guy active, Ronald Meliossandro, no one else, plus they've never been anywhere near 20 members in their lifetime.
What does that have to do with anything I said? Would you do everyone a favour Cicero and get your ass out of this thread? It seems like everyone has moved on, buried their grudges over something that happened so long ago, in a fucking game, case and point PhantomZero, until you enter one of these strat threads and start spewing your full retard crap.Well you can do us a favour also get your fuckin ass out of strategus and go find a dark room and cry there ? Why the fuck we need to see your bullshit because you and your clan cant do a fuckin organise on strategus ?
Why the fuck we need to see your bullshit because you and your clan cantFixed.do a fuckin organise on strategussuck grey and drz dick all day ?
Fixed.who is this guy ?
lol, no.
Ecko fucking HATED us. He resisted us with every fiber of his being, which only made our attacks on NE all the sweeter.
If I remember right, we had a merc contract that just expired. I enjoyed the hell out of those battles, and a few of us kept merc'ing for fun. We just didn't have a dog in the fight anymore.
That is my recollection as well. Back then, North American Fallen members spent most of their c-RPG time being accused of homosexuality by ATS members on ATS administrated servers and we had no love for them. I merced for LLJK until I went inactive. I just want to add that Smoothrich is a bit crazy and his theories are wildly inaccurate at times, like one of those conspiriousy theorist types.
Loki literally began saying a Fallen member has a family involved in middle eastern oil business, some sort of Saudi Arabian bullshit. He began ordering this guy to pay "donations" to LLJK financed servers upwards of 300 dollars a month.
Loki literally began saying a Fallen member has a family involved in middle eastern oil business, some sort of Saudi Arabian bullshit. He began ordering this guy to pay "donations" to LLJK financed servers upwards of 300 dollars a month. Also this was admittedly part of hating ATS servers which everyone could agree were as poorly administered as anything could be. But stooping so far as to bribe a clan of somethingawful posters with saudi oil money over internet horses political stability is about as hilariously weird and pathetic as you can get.visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Yes! Its the fallen Brigade's fault that YOUR car is always out of gas! All part of your plan: without your car you cant react fast enough once our wolrd-take-over starts!
One opinion is Fallen is one of the most embarrassing gaming organizations I've seen, and are probably the least liked clan in all of cRPG. Of course there's cool members, but considering things like Loki's former leadership or everything the severely autistic Tears of Destiny has ever said or done, it is pretty much a disgraced clan.As someone who, in the past, kept several Fallen members from getting unjustly banned from the ATS servers, and possibly having them suffer the same injustice that lljk did with the mass bans, I say, this at least has some merit to it. It may not be the case now, and I find it doubtful that they were more hated than lljk at the time, but Fallen was assuredly not going to win any popularity contests back then. I'm not sure how things are now as you guys seem to stay away from NA for the most part, though I'm wondering why that would be.
I had significant problems with the Fallen organization, mostly due to ineptitude, sleaziness, and general untrustworthiness in all of my dealings with them. Fallen_Loki was certainly one of the worst leaders in Strategus. All they did, and often still do, was leak plans told in confidence to instigate proxy wars with vassals, backstab people, never help allies, refuse to merc for supposed "friends" unless directly paid, letting Tears of Destiny be a diplomat who treated everyone with even more arrogance and belligerence, turning more clans into a "Fuck Fallen" attitude.
So instead of addressing any of these problems diplomatically or you know, by not being a dick in general when we talked about it, Loki literally began saying a Fallen member has a family involved in middle eastern oil business, some sort of Saudi Arabian bullshit. He began ordering this guy to pay "donations" to LLJK financed servers upwards of 300 dollars a month. Also this was admittedly part of hating ATS servers which everyone could agree were as poorly administered as anything could be. But stooping so far as to bribe a clan of somethingawful posters with saudi oil money over internet horses political stability is about as hilariously weird and pathetic as you can get.
I've never even posted a single "theory". I just write things that happened to me and my opinion on those involved. One opinion is Fallen is one of the most embarrassing gaming organizations I've seen, and are probably the least liked clan in all of cRPG. Of course there's cool members, but considering things like Loki's former leadership or everything the severely autistic Tears of Destiny has ever said or done, it is pretty much a disgraced clan.
For the record, someone suggested last strat that we bring the native factions to strategus...which I don't think is a terrible idea, then there'd only be 6 factions, and people could fight internally over control of the faction. You'd see more de-centralized power (common to the middle ages) than you do now with massive faction building, which you didn't see til the end of the medieval period.
Also the current smaller factions would then be part of a larger picture (if they wanted to be).
And you'd have to set diplomatic stances towards the other factions, neutral, defense pact, allies, etc. And only mercs or allies could sign up for you. There was actually a shit ton of great suggestions for strat about a year ago (starting in the fall of 2011, and going to the end of the year).
Was Fallen disliked because they had archers? It always seemed like c-rpg players held the dumbest grudges. I believe for Hospitallers in strat 2 it was just due to fighting over land claims. But I thought I got the feeling that a lot of people talked shit (in the pub servers) to Fallen just because they had a lot of archers.
I had significant problems with the Fallen organization, mostly due to ineptitude, sleaziness, and general untrustworthiness in all of my dealings with them. Fallen_Loki was certainly one of the worst leaders in Strategus. All they did, and often still do, was leak plans told in confidence to instigate proxy wars with vassals, backstab people, never help allies, refuse to merc for supposed "friends" unless directly paid, letting Tears of Destiny be a diplomat who treated everyone with even more arrogance and belligerence, turning more clans into a "Fuck Fallen" attitude.
So instead of addressing any of these problems diplomatically or you know, by not being a dick in general when we talked about it, Loki literally began saying a Fallen member has a family involved in middle eastern oil business, some sort of Saudi Arabian bullshit. He began ordering this guy to pay "donations" to LLJK financed servers upwards of 300 dollars a month. Also this was admittedly part of hating ATS servers which everyone could agree were as poorly administered as anything could be. But stooping so far as to bribe a clan of somethingawful posters with saudi oil money over internet horses political stability is about as hilariously weird and pathetic as you can get.
I've never even posted a single "theory". I just write things that happened to me and my opinion on those involved. One opinion is Fallen is one of the most embarrassing gaming organizations I've seen, and are probably the least liked clan in all of cRPG. Of course there's cool members, but considering things like Loki's former leadership or everything the severely autistic Tears of Destiny has ever said or done, it is pretty much a disgraced clan.
One opinion is Fallen is one of the most embarrassing gaming organizations I've seen, and are probably the least liked clan in all of cRPG. Of course there's cool members,
Loki literally began saying a Fallen member has a family involved in middle eastern oil business, some sort of Saudi Arabian bullshit. He began ordering this guy to pay "donations" to LLJK financed servers upwards of 300 dollars a month.visitors can't see pics , please register or login
He began ordering this guy to pay "donations" to LLJK financed servers upwards of 300 dollars a month.
it was the fucking fallen brigade giving our moneyz aways to lljk servers!Its not your money! Its Saudi-oil money!
Fallen "Arab Money" BrigadeThis is remarkably accurate for our get-togethers that we fund every month.(click to show/hide)
+13 for that post.
Was he trolling or is he that much of a nutbar?
oil money.Want some? Come get some!
So Smooth was right. GGARABFANS
So exactly why did I get a diplomacy forum warning for posting in general discussion?
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
This is exactly my thought...Read this thread you buggers!: http://forum.meleegaming.com/general-discussion/your-warnings-should-actually-inform-what-exactly-was-violated/
I will gladly stop posting in the DIPLOMACY forums on all topics I have been posting offtopic in (which there is: - )
For further information about this i would be thankfull :)
LLJK, I could never figure out what their goals were, what their motivation was, or even who was leading them really. All we knew was that their were a lot of them, they seemed fragmented, but a force to be reconned with. I worked with LadyGAGA in planning some schemes to take DRZ territory and hand it over directly to LLJK in strat 1, but strat 1 died literally a day before the plan was to be implemented. In Strat 2 I just didn't know what the fuck they were doing. They were trying to join UIF then the NE, or at least this is what they were telling me. So we ended up mercing for them for 50k strat gold a week. When they couldn't or wouldn't pay up I went to ATS_Ecko and got 150k strat gold for agreeing to not merc for LLJK. Not really intending to live up to our end of the agreement one way or the other. I could have cared less. LLJK was doing a hell of a job fending off multiple aggressors at once. We just laughed and laughed, we couldn't believe that Ecko had given us 150k gold for essentially nothing.
In other words, I was right. Thanks for admitting it. I will disagree with your post you were the most hated clan at least in the beginning of Strat 2, come on now, you can't say you were more hated than us poor LLJK when we had the super coalition of awful after us :D
Now I miss the goons because they were so much more fun than fallen :/
visitors can't see pics , please register or loginvisitors can't see pics , please register or login
Oh is that so? Do you remember the part from the show where he says "I'm not saying it was aliens but it was aliens!"Thats not how u use history channel guy....(click to show/hide)(click to show/hide)
real talk
It was the best in life to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of Goretooth.
...instantly losing to FCC or whoever it was attacking was epic. ...After 3 months constant warfare together with our contract partners The Mercenaries. Fending of 16 different clans and finally would be able to get rid of FCC ^^ Chaos showed up with 7k troops but wouldn't attack. We were curious and when contacted were told, that Chaos wants us to get into Peace Talks with FCC. After a marathon of 3 days with 7-10 hours pure negotiations each day, we came out with Matey rage quitting TS several times ;) a NAP with FCC, the contested claims confirmed and handed over to Mercs which then handed them over as part of our contract to Wolf Pack Mercenaries and Mercs/Wolves on the other hand paying troops & gold to FCC.
After 3 months constant warfare together with our contract partners The Mercenaries. Fending of 16 different clans and finally would be able to get rid of FCC ^^ Chaos showed up with 7k troops but wouldn't attack. We were curious and when contacted were told, that Chaos wants us to get into Peace Talks with FCC. After a marathon of 3 days with 7-10 hours pure negotiations each day, we came out with Matey rage quitting TS several times ;) a NAP with FCC, the contested claims confirmed and handed over to Mercs which then handed them over as part of our contract to Wolf Pack Mercenaries and Mercs/Wolves on the other hand paying troops & gold to FCC.
Those Troops & Gold then were used to invade NE. Now the funny part is, within those peace talks, FCC tried to strongarm us into joining their cause and attacking the Union. We but disagreed on that part. So while we thought they would take those troops to attack the Union, FCC afterwards choose another target, as history showed the Northern Empire.
...I admit i was tired after 3 months constant warfare and i pressured mercs to the peace as also they needed to fullfill the contract between us and we both saw a chance to do so by these peace talks. But fighting on would have been ok too and there were voices also on our side which said, fuck it bring it on.
Matey was, the whole time, fine with remaining at war. He was reiterating that fact by walking out when he wasn't being brought forth ideas that were of any merit to the FCC. ...
Looking back on it, it would've made more sense just to join in and attack instead of initiating the peace talks. But that agreement was rather a novelty, and I doubt we'll see another outcome to a war similar to that one anytime soon. I'm not upset at the way things turned out, though, because it allowed the Northern Empire to crumble, which brought the diplomatic dynamic of strat to a whole different place. It's just a shame that they didn't offer more resistance/fun fights.
After 3 months constant warfare together with our contract partners The Mercenaries. Fending of 16 different clans and finally would be able to get rid of FCC ^^ Chaos showed up with 7k troops but wouldn't attack. We were curious and when contacted were told, that Chaos wants us to get into Peace Talks with FCC. After a marathon of 3 days with 7-10 hours pure negotiations each day, we came out with Matey rage quitting TS several times ;) a NAP with FCC, the contested claims confirmed and handed over to Mercs which then handed them over as part of our contract to Wolf Pack Mercenaries and Mercs/Wolves on the other hand paying troops & gold to FCC.
Those Troops & Gold then were used to invade NE. Now the funny part is, within those peace talks, FCC tried to strongarm us into joining their cause and attacking the Union. We but disagreed on that part. So while we thought they would take those troops to attack the Union, FCC afterwards choose another target, as history showed the Northern Empire. After FCC surprised NE and we stand in awe for how easy they went through their lines(i watched some battles and only was like OMG) Only one who put up a fight were Hospitallers of the NE. After FCC rushed in there, DRZ and Fallen came too and grab/snacked what they could ^^.
At that time i started planing for strategus 3 talking first time with Hospitallers,Crusaders, CotgS and others about possible alliance and goals. Which resulted in the Desert Alliance and taking on Fallen. I have to admit that the propaganda but also the actions i have seen in strat 2, shaped my view of Fallen and Loki overly negativ. I had at that point close to no relation with UIF, only in strat 3 through close vicinity to DRZ in the desert we came to an understanding to stay out of each others way and had strong Trade with Grey Order going as the far away bonus from one edge from the map to the other were just too juicy :)
Us attacking Fallen and their allies was i guess also seen positivly by UIF, which but i didn't care about as so was my mindset, when Fallen was dealt with there would be a chance to ally with LLJK and Chaos to go against UIF. As but Hospitallers and Chaos(LLJK too?) through some Forum trolling and i was told also trolling on the NA servers came to a bad view of each other and then getting into war with each other while also DRZ pressured north, that then was used by Grey Order/Nords to get us out of the desert and afterwards myself went offline as i was fairly exhausted and crusaders took on the cause against UIF. I can see that DRZ/GO applying for our battles was judged as us being part of the UIF, but we never recieved any resupplies from them and always were worried that the day would come they would attack us, well which as history showed also did.