cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Steinborn on September 18, 2012, 12:57:24 pm

Title: New Players need some love
Post by: Steinborn on September 18, 2012, 12:57:24 pm
I have played MB for around 2 months now (mostly single player) and i recently discovered this mod. Before i say harsh things about it i would like to point out that i think the mod is great and i appreciate all the work that has been put in to it. After playing for around 10 hours i got tired of being 1 shot by everything. I was told in game that it gets better around level 16 once you get some armor and stuff though. Now that i am level 15 i am finally able to take 2 hits from some things but mostly everything still 1 shots me. Dont get me wrong, i love a game that is difficult and is not care bear but this is too much. I would love to be able to tell my friends about this mod and get them playing but i don't know a single person that would want to come play after i say "oh and after you play for 10 hours you might be able to take 2 hits from a hatchet and kill somebody". Something needs to be in place that allows new players to get in to the game easier. I know that there is the "skip the fun" button, but this does exactly that. skips the FUN. The way it's set up now is like World of Warcraft setting up their pvp where all levels 1-(whatever the max is now) play against each other. Running around for 10 hours getting 1 shot by a guy on a horse that you cannot defend against is not fun. I am not the best player in the world but i fully understand the combat mechanics of the game so please do not announce i am a noob who doesn't know how to play. In total i have 4 kills and 37 deaths, and i don't know a single person that would look at that and think "you had fun playing that game".

Some simple solutions for fixing this would be giving new players:

Better starting gear
Some starting stat points to put in (maybe jump to level 10)
More starting money to buy gear
Increase the health/armor of players under a certain level

Obviously all of this would apply to new accounts/characters that are created and would only apply to your first generation character.

This is just my 2 cents, ill still be playing the game in the hopes it gets better but i would love to be able to share this mod with people who have less patience than i do.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Miwiw on September 18, 2012, 01:04:59 pm
I don't think this mod was made for people with low patience. Otherwise you could GTX after each death.
New players today have it far easier than before, during the first months of crpg after release.

Making money during the first gen is as easy as it can be. You don't need to wear heavy gear, no one actually needs to. You will gain a lot of gold during that time to buy many sets of gear, get good weapons and more.

btw never use skip for fun for your main character. not worth it.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Steinborn on September 18, 2012, 01:20:18 pm
I not sure i mentioned anything about it being hard to make money. I have had no problem after 10 hours of dying making enough money to buy some armor and a weapon. My problem is the 10 hours of dying it took for me to get there. It seems like a lot more people would play if you guys cut that 10 hours of dying out of the picture for new players. Its like counter strike saying "you must play for 10 hour with a glock, 10 health, and no grenades before we even give you the option of using anything else". Im glad its easier now than in the first months of crpg release, but now all you guys who have been playing for months don't worry about new players and are glad to run around 1 shotting them. Does nobody else see how many people have probably quit this game/never started playing due to the fact its so unfriendly to new players? Isn't that key to a new game, getting a good player base and allowing for new players to join in without feeling alienated? So far from what i have seen the player base is great, everybody seems friendly but i see a lot more potential if some very minor simple things were changed.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: MB passionately on September 18, 2012, 01:20:24 pm
Have patience man
If you like native and think you are good that means nothing in crpg, you´ll get slayed here quickly. The skill level is just deadly, a reason why the best M&B players gather here. Every player has to learn the lesson at the start.

...meaning only a few people will help you at the beginning    (solution: the forums)

...meaning people will laugh about questions from beginners (solution: shut up and just learn)

...meaning a lot of people are occupied with their egos (solution: kill them!)

...meaning that as soon as you reach the break-even-point where you achieve kills on the regular, you´ll get hooked  :twisted:  (solution: none :rolleyes:)

Could be a good idea to start on the max lvl 20 server, it speeds up your development. How can you think you can defeat a level 33 player (a guy that spent >1year in the game) with a character you created one day ago.

To join a clan is also helpfull, here you learn teamplay and movement on the battlefield

Have patience!!

Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Mr_Oujamaflip on September 18, 2012, 01:26:58 pm
It's not about equipment really, I've seen many people getting 2-3 kills in the first round after a retirement, I've done it myself and I'm by no means a very good player. You've just got to get used to the way the game runs. I'd suggest using the "view outfit" button a lot, it lets you freelook around you to watch for ninjas and cavalry and has saved my life a hundred times over. Also spend some time on the duel server practising blocking, even if you have a crappy wooden sword but can block you can be of use to the team.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: [ptx] on September 18, 2012, 01:30:13 pm
You can get to lvl21 in the LVL20-low-level server in... 1-2 hours, whilst playing against people with similar level characters.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Thomek on September 18, 2012, 02:30:55 pm
...

I generally think you are right. Getting new players into the game will always pay off in the long run, for all of us.

I think new accounts with new chars should start at lvl 8-10, and I have suggested this a few times myself.. It would not affect game balance at all if we let new accounts have an "easy" first generation. I also have friends who gave up very quickly due to being useless in the beginning.

The low level server is not very populated atm am I right? :)

Anyway..

For you personally, I would recommend checking out the build section in the beginners guides forum. Reading the guides won't hurt either! Trust me, this game is deep and even though I played cRPG since the beginning I'm not 100% sure I know all the angles and mechanics for all classes.

Also, make an ALT STF char and experiment with what kind of build you want to have. Here's a build calculator:  http://infinitum.dyndns.org/crpg/calc.htm

Stay put, this game is fantastic. Try to learn manual blocking first, as you will need it no matter what class you choose to play.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: [ptx] on September 18, 2012, 02:33:03 pm
Well, i usually see that it has at least 20 players, which is ideal for low-lvl play.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Firebrand on September 18, 2012, 02:37:54 pm
Hey dude i understand your frustration about that shit, when you feel like meat for hi-leveled players on battle server or siege. My solution of that problem very simple. Play DTV - kinda coop mode, - it very nice mode for new and low-level players. Every time after retire i play DTV untill i became 25-27 level. U can easily earn good amount of gold and xp u can grind without frustration, - so try this gamemode - its very fun. On DTV mostly friendly athmosphere and u can feel free to ask any questions - ppl will help u!!! But be carefull eu_HRE server there is some shitty admin that can ban you for team hit or other shit - his name is Obarkon or something. Good luck and have fun!
Sorry fot BAD english! :wink:
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: OssumPawesome on September 18, 2012, 02:42:45 pm
Sorry man - this is a high learning curve mod.  It also requires you to be pretty high level to be remotely useful.  I think the best solution to this that no one will ever implement would be to make leveling twice as fast.  I think the mode would be twice as fun and I would probably play it a lot more.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Bjord on September 18, 2012, 02:43:31 pm
You can get to lvl21 in the LVL20-low-level server in... 1-2 hours, whilst playing against people with similar level characters.

This.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Patoson on September 18, 2012, 02:43:42 pm
You can get to lvl21 in the LVL20-low-level server in... 1-2 hours, whilst playing against people with similar level characters.
Yes, but if you join that server with a really low level you get humiliated by level 19's. It has happened to me every single time I played on that server.

My suggestion regarding this situation is to shorten the levelling curve, at least until level 24. This is a mod for Warband, a hack'n'slash game; it shouldn't resemble a MMO so much in that aspect.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Firebrand on September 18, 2012, 02:46:57 pm
This.
What he will do after 21 lvl? 21 level even on siege is total bulshit being just meat for 33level skilled monsters like ninjas , 2handers or my old friendchers.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: IR_Kuoin on September 18, 2012, 02:48:50 pm
Just be glad you didn't play cRPG back in 2010, 2012 cRPG is a walk on the beach compared to a walk in firebombs.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Joseph Porta on September 18, 2012, 02:48:55 pm
So if im right it took you 10 hours to get to level 15? No offence man, I encouragenew players and all that but you must be doing something wrong, what mode do you play? I suggest you to play battle, if you die it leaves you time to do something on your desktop, thus making the peasant levels less of a drag. What is your build, i suggest you to go something balanced with a good amount of HP or enroll a shielder, even shields that req 3 s-skill can take quite a beating and ofcourse in your peasant levels you can really focus on manual blocking, since your damage output is so low.

Tl;dr: use your low level time usefull: learn blocking, gather money and just relax, when you die, unless you are the last one left or something, it leaves you enough time to browse the forum, make some coffee or do other shit.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Ptolemy on September 18, 2012, 02:53:14 pm
I see a lot of people saying "use your first gen to get money" or "you don't need to have great equipment on your first gen".

This is true, but it doesn't answer the issue that being used as a pincushion isn't fun, thus new players will quit quickly. Something does need to be done about it, but I don't have a solution.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Firebrand on September 18, 2012, 02:57:39 pm
So if im right it took you 10 hours to get to level 15? No offence man, I encouragenew players and all that but you must be doing something wrong, what mode do you play? I suggest you to play battle, if you die it leaves you time to do something on your desktop, thus making the peasant levels less of a drag. What is your build, i suggest you to go something balanced with a good amount of HP or enroll a shielder, even shields that req 3 s-skill can take quite a beating and ofcourse in your peasant levels you can really focus on manual blocking, since your damage output is so low.

Tl;dr: use your low level time usefull: learn blocking, gather money and just relax, when you die, unless you are the last one left or something, it leaves you enough time to browse the forum, make some coffee or do other shit.
Battle is hardest mode in cRPG especially for newbies and low-level players. It full of backstabing horsemen, archers and xbowman, not mention of other classes. It is real frustration when you get killed in begining of battle, so all u have to do is trying to survive and its not fun at all!

DTV is best solution for new players. Kind training for real battles in future and good ability to earn money. Just use cheap armor and weapons.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Herkkutatti666 on September 18, 2012, 03:19:22 pm
no.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 18, 2012, 05:29:22 pm
I've gotten kills at level 1 with a pitchfork.  Early on you play as a peasant, this a role playing game, and is to simulate you getting skills and this time should be spent trying to buy armor and weapons for when you have the skills to utilize them.

One or two nights of playing and you should be at level 20 easily, probably closer to level 24 or 25. 

I'm pretty sure you would get dominated even if you had the skills of a level 30 player (which you should building your char for a level 30 build using character calculators http://infinitum.dyndns.org/crpg/calc.htm).  Your first generation should be about acquiring equipment, and getting familiar with the game.  Most of us have played c-rpg for thousands of hours, so you won't hear much sympathy about the grind of a generation 1 player, we've all been there, and it can seem very overwhelming, but it's really not that bad once you're more familiar with the game.  You can be useful to your team winning as a peasant, and the more your team wins, the faster you gain levels.

Also, I would highly suggest you check out the faction hall of these forums, find a faction's teamspeak or ventrilo and hang out with them until you learn the ropes of the game.  Most factions are willing to show a noobie the ropes and answer any questions you might have (you will probably have a lot) and even more things you won't even know to ask, they can explain to you.

Don't listen to Firebrand.  DTV is not the place for new players.  You should be playing on the battle server, it's the only server that you can get high multipliers and keep them for some time.  Also, on battle, you can stick with a group of infantry with your pitch fork and rear horsemen who charge, or poke at enemies when they get close (to interrupt their attack and allow your friendlies to get a hit in).  Or just stand next to an archer and try to protect them.  You should be on the battle server, 10 hours of playing (if telling the truth) and only level 15 is absolutely horrible.  I get to level 15 (300,000 xp) in a couple hours, maybe 3 hours tops if I have a x1 the whole time.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Turboflex on September 18, 2012, 05:40:26 pm
You are dieing because you are a newbie and this game takes a fairly high amount of skill, it's not because you are low level. Many good players can post positive kill:death rations at lvl 10. As a newbie you have no sense of timing, awareness, footwork and other important combat techniques and tactics. while the guys you are up against are skilled gamers who have 1-2 years experience and knowledge of such things, and are drawing on these things to own you, not just raw power.

As others have said, play on either the sub lvl 21 server, or also play on siege not battle. On siege you will respawn faster into combat, so get more combat time, and there also tends to be more newbies and weak players on siege so you should get more kills which helps moral. Just bring a blunt or pierce weapon cuz there tends to be more emphasis on armor on siege. You also don't have to deal with the added tactical dangers of archer and cav flanks.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 18, 2012, 05:48:11 pm
Well either way, I'd be on the siege or battle server, not DTV or rageball or duel.  I personally would suggest battle, but siege is a good alternative as well (because you get more active play time. so better for learning the ropes of the game, but maybe not as good for survivability and gaining experience quickly).  I just think that siege is not as noob friendly as the battle server, because you need strength to be useful on siege, not much a peasant can do climbing up a ladder.  However a level 1 peasant on the open field of a battle can be running in a group of infantry and stabbing when enemies come close.  Not much you can do 1v1 at the top of a ladder when you're a peasant.  Plus it seems like you get better multipliers being on battle than siege.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Mlekce on September 18, 2012, 05:58:37 pm
Yes, but if you join that server with a really low level you get humiliated by level 19's. It has happened to me every single time I played on that server.

My suggestion regarding this situation is to shorten the levelling curve, at least until level 24. This is a mod for Warband, a hack'n'slash game; it shouldn't resemble a MMO so much in that aspect.
I had same problem but then i discovered how one handed weapons and long spear or pichfork is deadly on that server. :lol:
It was pure rape,untill archers came and some lvl 20 2h and molested me. But nvm i caused 2 or 3 rage quts at lvl 10,and rolled with good multi for moust of the time.
Ranged weapons,spears,staff,great lance,scimitar,glaive,bastard sword are weapons for that server.
I don't like idea to give anyone any advatage i didn't get as bigginer.
I started in peasant gear and with 100 gold with lvl 1 and i had to play dtv to lvl up. If i made to gen 12 then you ppl should feel my pain also.

Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Berserkadin on September 18, 2012, 06:11:56 pm
There is a max level 20 server, with max 15k gold equipment, play there instead of whining here.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: rustyspoon on September 18, 2012, 06:22:59 pm
No concessions need to be made nor should be made for new players.

The fact of the matter is, if we made all new players level 35 and gave them a whole suite of masterwork items they would still get their asses kicked. Then they would just complain that the mod is "broken" and stupid.

At least starting out as a peasant it gives new players a realistic expectation. You will die. A lot.

The average skill level is just much higher than Native. Native has some excellent duelists, but the average Native player is dramatically worse than the average CRPG player.

If anything it would be nice if there was a message when you first get the mod about how brutal and unforgiving it is and to give people a link to the beginner's guides.

Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on September 18, 2012, 06:24:21 pm
What I just read says your trying to be a hero.....which, as you've found means you die. A lot.

Consider playing the game with the perspective teamwork, comradery, and maybe a long pointy stick at low levels. Protect the friend next to you yields higher survivability and will gain you battle buddies.

Many of you younglins don't realize that even the poke a pitchfork from a farmer can mean the ending of a steroid loomed junkie. This is achieved do to the hit stun and they just can't block everything.

So, give this game another go and protect you teammates. Game changes quite a bit and becomes far more rewarding.

Perhaps someday a teammate would even jump into a overhead maul for you, I know I have.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Firebrand on September 18, 2012, 06:38:06 pm
Don't listen to Firebrand.  DTV is not the place for new players.  You should be playing on the battle server, it's the only server that you can get high multipliers and keep them for some time.  Also, on battle, you can stick with a group of infantry with your pitch fork and rear horsemen who charge, or poke at enemies when they get close (to interrupt their attack and allow your friendlies to get a hit in).  Or just stand next to an archer and try to protect them.
Yes, you can listen not me but CrazyCracka420 cause i am newbe for this mod and he is probably 20-30 gen in cRPG, expirienced player having MW weapons and all that Lordly shit. I am sure that he can make some kills on battle server and joy killing some noob tincan with his loomed military scythe being a peasant. But u are not him, you have no expirience in this mod so most of time you will feel frustrations about helplessy against such monsters in lordly kuyaks with MW Danish or such shit. You will be oneshoted by any archer and xbowman. Even with lvl under 27-28 you will feel that. I did. So i said fuck it. I started play dtv - earn enough money, bough good stuff, get retired few times , loomed my main weapon and armor, and then i went on siege. And i can say to u - with all that shit in lvl 28 and above i feel really comfortable. I can manage to kill ppl and be in middle of scoreboard or above each round. So i feel now no frustrations but enjoy the battle. Only one thing pisses me off - is fucking multi system, u can in hours have only x1 and u cant do anything with this, - u cant switch the team so its just waste time. Why they cant give players some profit about your actions on map - killing enemies, making damage, capturing the flag and so on. Its just stupid system - if you were lucky to join good team you will earn easy xp, but if you were not so lucky so  - just suck balls and enjoy your fucking x1 and x5 of the enemies!

About DTV. With this mode, playing with good players like Uther, Fuma, and many others i've learned teamworking basic shit, killing bots with teamwork avoid tem hits and team kills and just enjoy to play with good players hand to hand. I found there no bitching, no insults or other shit u can see on battle and siege server. And when i fight on siege for example - its really funny to meet some guy from DTV eye  to eye and he just play "kick" animation and make upper block to greeting u and then just run in other direction not even mean try to kill u! This is very good mode uniting community not eliminating anger and rage about classes noobs and other shit! :wink:

P.S. My teacher of English would kill me for such BAD text, so forgive me, hope u understand me! :D
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Lichen on September 18, 2012, 06:56:09 pm
You can get to lvl21 in the LVL20-low-level server in... 1-2 hours, whilst playing against people with similar level characters.

Yes, but if you join that server with a really low level you get humiliated by level 19's. It has happened to me every single time I played on that server.
Use a cudgel + wear farmer rags till level 20 and write in chat your current level so all other players know your current level and you don't feel 'humiliated'.

You are dieing because you are a newbie and this game takes a fairly high amount of skill, it's not because you are low level. Many good players can post positive kill:death rations at lvl 10. As a newbie you have no sense of timing, awareness, footwork and other important combat techniques and tactics. while the guys you are up against are skilled gamers who have 1-2 years experience and knowledge of such things, and are drawing on these things to own you, not just raw power.
so true, yet when will they ever listen.

No concessions need to be made nor should be made for new players.

The fact of the matter is, if we made all new players level 35 and gave them a whole suite of masterwork items they would still get their asses kicked. Then they would just complain that the mod is "broken" and stupid.

The average skill level is just much higher than Native. Native has some excellent duelists, but the average Native player is dramatically worse than the average CRPG player.
so true, yet when will they ever listen.


But with all the softies now who expect this mod to be as easy and no effort as every other game they are used to I think the devs should just make it easier for new players because I'd rather have whine topics about how the mod is 'broken' than whine topics about how noobs could compete IF ONLY they had tons of gold and heirloomed gear. Sure make it easy for noobs. Give them like 200,000 gold first gen, and no upkeep until level 30. Also maybe give them 1 masterworked item that is non sellable. Whatever will make them start complaining about something else besides gear and gold, do it.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Firebrand on September 18, 2012, 07:08:13 pm
Lol, i am newbie, -  give me 35 lvl with all MW and lordly set up. I will not feel any frustrations about how "hard" this mode is, i will feel really comfortable even fighting with hyper- super- skilled players. Yes probably in dueling with good players i will suck, but in siege and battle dueling skill not such matter, but its more important  teamwork! So dont say shit that lvl doesnt matter but only individual skill!
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 19, 2012, 12:53:56 am
Level 15 (301 595 xp)
An average of 1 million experience per 9 hours of gameplay iirc.
At permanent X1 tick 301 595 xp is 302 ticks, is 5 hours.

You receive a tick at the 30 second mark in game, and every 60 seconds after that, so actually it is even faster then five hours.

I don't know what you are doing wrong considering it is literally impossible to be level 15 at ten hours. You should be a minimum of level 20 if you have absolutely the worst luck in the world and have ten solid hours of a X1 modifier, and you should be roughly with average modifiers level 23 (Max level 28).
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: IR_Kuoin on September 19, 2012, 12:58:02 am
Tears, stop the blue font already!  :evil:
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 19, 2012, 12:59:04 am
Tears, stop the blue font already!  :evil:

NO U

This is not blue anyways ;)
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Jarlek on September 19, 2012, 01:05:27 am
I just retired today and I went on EU_5. Spawned late and saw one of my allies fighting a 2hander with a claymore (sigh, dickheads). Did my ninja-run up behind him and slashed him with my khyber knife. He died. Lvl 1, first round and a kill. Fuck yeah!
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Zanze on September 19, 2012, 01:08:15 am
I got two kills my entire first gen(I respecced about 8 times in that timeframe as well, so about 10 million xp worth. For pros, yes I know respeccing resets kill counter. Yes it is sad enough that I never killed anyone before that either). I am now gen 14 and top the scoreboard at least once every 5 games. Patience is winner. Stick in there, find some good people to teach you how to play and go kick ass. (Have your teacher be someone of the class you want to play! I was taught by a shielder and a pikeman and now play hoplite as a result)
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Ptolemy on September 19, 2012, 03:35:30 am
I just retired today and I went on EU_5. Spawned late and saw one of my allies fighting a 2hander with a claymore (sigh, dickheads). Did my ninja-run up behind him and slashed him with my khyber knife. He died. Lvl 1, first round and a kill. Fuck yeah!

And then I killed you with my bastard sword.

I admit it, I felt mean.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 19, 2012, 08:03:20 am
And then I killed you with my bastard sword.

I admit it, I felt mean.
Jarlek deserved it for being a killstealing noob.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Jarlek on September 19, 2012, 11:23:05 am
And then I killed you with my bastard sword.

I admit it, I felt mean.
You killed my as I was running and typing "FUCK YEAH, LVL 1 KILL IN FIRST ROUND!", but it ended up being said in deadchat, so you didn't see it xD
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Ptolemy on September 19, 2012, 01:19:07 pm
You killed my as I was running and typing "FUCK YEAH, LVL 1 KILL IN FIRST ROUND!", but it ended up being said in deadchat, so you didn't see it xD
Now I feel even more mean :(


I think I'm going to adopt green text... because.. why not.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: BlackMilk on September 19, 2012, 01:21:34 pm
Now I feel even more mean :(


I think I'm going to adopt green text... because.. why not.
because it's gay as fuck and makes you look like a attention whore.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Ptolemy on September 19, 2012, 01:35:23 pm
because it's gay as fuck and makes you look like a attention whore.

At least it's not fail 3D writing.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on September 19, 2012, 02:34:47 pm
I think a certain percentage of the market tax should go into a pot for new players and they get around 10k to buy equipment, maybe just after hitting lvl 15 or 20 or something like that.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Patoson on September 19, 2012, 03:00:27 pm
You are dieing because you are a newbie and this game takes a fairly high amount of skill, it's not because you are low level. Many good players can post positive kill:death rations at lvl 10. As a newbie you have no sense of timing, awareness, footwork and other important combat techniques and tactics. while the guys you are up against are skilled gamers who have 1-2 years experience and knowledge of such things, and are drawing on these things to own you, not just raw power.
This is why Age of Conan's PvP drew me back - learning while everyone else had years of experience and full gear. There was no need to call him a newbie though.

And I repeat: levelling should be a lot faster until level 24 or so. Let beginners be competent (in terms of looms) fast enough and not after a year. The mod might be dead in a year (who knows?).

I don't like idea to give anyone any advatage i didn't get as bigginer.
That's as if our ancestors who didn't have the same civil rights we have now claimed we shouldn't have them because they didn't have them in their lifetime.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: [ptx] on September 19, 2012, 03:02:28 pm
Newbie = beginner, it it not an insult, unlike noob.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Vibe on September 19, 2012, 03:02:43 pm
Vibe's got plenty of love for everyone, big, small, young, old..

24/m/calradia

pm
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: rustyspoon on September 19, 2012, 03:31:14 pm
And I repeat: levelling should be a lot faster until level 24 or so.

There is a benefit to slower levelling. It gives new players a feel of how certain stats effect their builds. As new players often start throwing points into things without first reading the forums, imagine the horribly broken builds they will end up with if they quickly get points to throw into things. Levelling from 25-31 would be terribly painful for them.

At least with slower levelling, if they make a mistake it won't hurt them too much as they'll have more time to catch it. One errant point here or there isn't a major issue.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Jarlek on September 19, 2012, 04:04:01 pm
I think a certain percentage of the market tax should go into a pot for new players and they get around 10k to buy equipment, maybe just after hitting lvl 15 or 20 or something like that.
I WONDER WHY THAT SOUNDS TERRIBLY FAMILIAR?

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Thomek on September 19, 2012, 04:07:01 pm
The whole point of the tax system is to take money out of the economy.. If you put it back in its purpose is defeated.

Anyway.. catering to new players, even giving them some temporary "unfair" bonus is fine by me. Consider it a long time investment in the playerbase.

Being bitter because you yourself had to suffer once upon a time is just pointless.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Joker86 on September 19, 2012, 04:10:37 pm
I support this as well. I think game design-wise it's wrong to make the game first hard and then easier for new players. It needs to be the other way round, that's how motivation works.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Skyline on September 19, 2012, 04:39:01 pm
A few of us that came over about 9 weeks ago feel the complete opposite..... We are grateful its challenging yet fun. even with the deaths those first few weeks.... Its really about learning what your doing wrong.... just because you die alot doesn't mean its a lvl/gear problem. You have to learn to block better and learning what style suites you best. I have seen plenty of tin cans go running in thinking "oh that guys in cloth, easy kill" and end up getting trashed because they thought they could take every hit due to the armor/hp or that the person in cloth was just loomed/new.  Its all about how much you actually put into learning the system in place... Duel alot, find someone that knows what they are talking about to help you, and most importantly dont get frustrated.... Practice blocking, watch people playing builds you wanna try to watch foot work etc, and practice blocking....
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Miwiw on September 19, 2012, 04:43:22 pm
Vibe's got plenty of love for everyone, big, small, young, old..

24/m/calradia

pm

I sense trap...
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Thomek on September 19, 2012, 04:49:37 pm
Both "sides" here has a point..

One should not underestimate the value of a though and steep learning curve, and perhaps those players that easily give up would do so anyway. Even with lvl 34 and and all loomed up this game is not easy. For me, and I guess for most of us that "stayed" we are the kind of people who get turned on by difficult learning curves.. :)

The question is really if it is possible to catch those players that don't like so super-hard learning curves?

What should be the focus of the devs, and for any game devs should be to create as good as possible first-time game experience. Bring those new player into the game, for maximum playerbase. In the end, the playerbase in a multiplayer game is what decides the lifespan of the game.

Once it reaches a minimum threshold, the game is dead. (look to crpg Australia i.ex)

My reasoning is:
Because c-RPG is so hard anyway, no matter levels and looms, we should give new players bonuses like free respecs, easy leveling, some cash, and very importantly "push" them into the beginners guide forums, or show/write them a good guide and put it in their face.

First gen should be easy and considered a learning generation at this point. Getting into cRPG now is anyway way harder than 2 years ago, because average skill-levels and loom saturation are way higher.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Firebrand on September 19, 2012, 05:20:20 pm
Mostly its problem of low lvl\shit gear, cause i think ppl come in cRPG from native so they have some skills and they probably know how to survive in battles\sieges. Native players not so bad how you can think of them. I came in cRPG from "pirate" servers - there is not so many skilled players so i havent such good skills but anyway, now  when i have few loomed gears and character with pretty str build 30 lvl i can deal with battle or siege competently enough. For some expirement i did go in eu_1 yesterday, and for few rounds i made k\d ratio about 13\5 - its not bad i think for newbie player. So dont be such haughty\arrogant about newbies. My opinion its all about low lvl and shitty gear\no money. For this reason DTV is best solution for new players to pass peasant years comfrtably and without frustrations!

P.S. BTW being a peasant may be even fun at least on DTV. On higher levels u managed kill hunderts bots and feel yourself like HERO who make the day, and now u r just little peasant with shitty scythe so your hope to win round is your teammates so they can protect you and make the day winning round against angry bots when almost whole team is dead.
  On battle servers noone will cover u cause u r shitty peasant. And game turns into boring attempt to survive. And after death u forced to watch how do others play. Bullshit! :rolleyes:
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Patoson on September 19, 2012, 05:21:59 pm
My reasoning is:
Because c-RPG is so hard anyway, no matter levels and looms, we should give new players bonuses like free respecs, easy leveling, some cash, and very importantly "push" them into the beginners guide forums, or show/write them a good guide and put it in their face.
For example, it would be nice to have a link to Tears of Destiny's guide for beginners in the character website, for those who aren't familiar with the forums.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Joseph Porta on September 19, 2012, 05:26:52 pm
Vibe's got plenty of love for everyone, big, small, young, old..

24/m/calradia

pm

You sir..

82/f/calradia
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Joker86 on September 19, 2012, 05:58:46 pm
Just make it on a voluntary basis.

A new main character receives the following bonuses:

- 15-20k gold starting equipment
- optionally enough XP to reach level 20 (just press a button and confirm)
- as many free respecs as he wants, up to level 20
- no upkeep until level 20
- selling items in the shop for the full price up to level 20
- no option to use the marketplace until level 20 (to prevent players with more accounts of taking advantage of the noob features)
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Rumblood on September 19, 2012, 06:45:02 pm
New players just need advice. Visit the Guides section of the forums. It will explain things that you couldn't know and thus allow you to create builds that perform properly. A New player should not be gimp simply because he doesn't know how to make a proper build. We can at least help you skip that part of the learning curve here.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Lichen on September 19, 2012, 06:56:14 pm
A new main character receives the following bonuses:

- 15-20k gold starting equipment
- optionally enough XP to reach level 20 (just press a button and confirm)
- as many free respecs as he wants, up to level 20
- no upkeep until level 20
- selling items in the shop for the full price up to level 20
- no option to use the marketplace until level 20 (to prevent players with more accounts of taking advantage of the noob features)

Not good enough for them, so:

-200,000 gold
-way faster leveling so they can get to level 33 on their first gen
-free respecs up to level 30
-no upkeep until level 30
-2 free masterwork items that can't be sold or traded
-auto started forum topic after they are level 33 about how game is broken because long time players have knowledge and skills noobs don't and still own them even with a peasant scythe. Topic will be titled 'pls remove skill/add the 'I win' button to the game'
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Pentecost on September 19, 2012, 07:03:55 pm
I am a relative newcomer myself, and I don't think the game needs to be made more accessible to newcomers than it already is.

Some background: I started playing cRPG during the time of the second to most recent steam sale for Warband. Like many, I was extremely horrible when I started; unlike many, I recognized the most important deficiency was not in the equipment I was using but the player using the equipment. Although I did not join a clan, as that's not my thing, what I did do was seek advice from better players who could tell me what I was doing incorrectly, try different weapons to see what was to my tastes, and spent a lot of time practicing on the duel server. I now have 6 generations under my belt between. I cannot say that I am a truly good player by any stretch of the imagination, but I can say that I'm not a below average one by cRPG standards anymore, which in turn makes me better than most of the people playing Mount and Blade. What am I getting at here?

What I'm getting at is that climbing a mountain pays off when you get to the point where you can turn around and take in the view. Dumbing things down, making them unnecessarily easy, and holding the players' hands is contrary to what makes the mod enjoyable, appealing, and worth playing, and I see no reason to cater to people who do not have the patience to raise themselves out of the mire. This extends, in my view, not just to the gameplay mechanics themselves but also the meta stuff like managing your upkeep and knowing how much gear a given multiplier can support; I learned these things precisely because I started out with no gold, and I feel it would be ultimately detrimental to the learning process of a newcomer if he magically started with thousands of gold (despite being a peasant) for no reason other than the fact that he's new.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Joker86 on September 19, 2012, 07:23:10 pm
In my opinion cRPG should also cater those REALLY casual casuals. Because if you expect players to actively search for information needed to play the game properly/successfully, then you will only keep the rather dedicated players, while the rest will quickly jump off. The players who are dedicated from beginning tend to become good players after rather short time, and we will have (=keep) a development which leads to a high average skill level in the community. Which is another source of frustration for (some) new players. On long term this will lead to a much smaller community than what we could have if we catered the casuals more. This is important, because Warband is already a rather old game, and we are losing players constantly (which is a completely natural thing), but combined with the constant releases of other "big" games like Skyrim or Guild Wars 2, the game could die quicker than you would have thought. Especially since Mount & Blade 2, The War of Roses and Chivalry 2 are to be released.

A dropping playerbase usually has a really quick, exponentially growing effect on the community, and often, within 2 or 3 months, the playerbase can drop by 50% or more, until after some time only the hardcore fanboys are left.

Having a big base of "baddies" does nothing bad to the game, except of letting the teamplay on public servers suffer even more (if this is still possible at all  :rolleyes: ). The good players will remain good player, the bad ones will remain bad, but everyone will be more likely to score a kill or two, the overall motivation will raise, and you will have more people to play with on the servers.

That's why it is important to look at the matter from different angles of view than only yours. That you did something a certain way doesn't mean you can and should expect everyone else to it the same way.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: IR_Kuoin on September 19, 2012, 07:36:31 pm
Peasants deserve respect, they are what makes cav happy about stabbing a defenceless guy in the back
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Rumblood on September 19, 2012, 07:37:58 pm
In my opinion cRPG should also cater those REALLY casual casuals.

It already does. STF Lancer Cavalry BAM!

STF or Skip The Fun isn't labeled properly for those really casual players who can't be assed to look for anything other than WASD and mouse. It needs to be renamed to Instant Max Level. If they are that casual, they will never realize that other people can level higher than 30 and thus won't complain, and if they do, then tell them to read some guides.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Joker86 on September 19, 2012, 07:47:15 pm
I don't know if I want to discuss further if you keep that condescending and cynic attitude (towards new players, not me)...  :?
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Zanze on September 19, 2012, 07:49:59 pm
Set up a mentoring program for newbies. Write up a thread in the beginner section and have a list of people willing to take pupils. This game really benefits from having someone help you out directly. Reading guides is nice, but just having that personal tutor really helps. Plus, some people for whatever reason hate games where you actually need to "study" for (ie, read another players guide). This would be a little more casual. Just kind of playing with a stranger to introduce you to a game and hopefully other people to play with.

Of course, to spur greedy bastards, you can have some sort of reward for it. I won't recommend any now because 90% of any recommendation of a reward can be abused by the people in this community that just want to watch the world burn.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Eugen on September 19, 2012, 08:00:58 pm
I believe a training server could do the trick to make newbies feel welcome. It would be something like the dueling server with the training ground map (horse tourney, melee duelling, archer grounds) maybe this server could have an training area with bots (like in dtV) too. The thing most important... since it is training, it doesnt count to your duel statistic. If you spend time there you get an automatic x1 not less not more...

just an weird idea anyway. Dont know if there would be enough folks on a server like this...
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Rumblood on September 19, 2012, 08:04:09 pm
In my opinion cRPG should also cater those REALLY casual casuals
I don't know if I want to discuss further if you keep that condescending and cynic attitude (towards new players, not me)...  :?

Don't try to Strawman me. My response to you wasn't about New Players and you know it. We are talking about, in your own words, REALLY casual casuals.

I don't know if I want to continue talking about it with you if you want to try to pull these bullshit debate team tactics. This is a discussion, not a high school event.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Skyline on September 19, 2012, 08:12:55 pm
I think the biggest problem with having separate servers for noobs is this.... you separate them further in skill by segregating them. They need to play with decent people in order to judge what mistakes they are making, how the mod is different than native ect. If you stick them into a place alone you are just pushing them father away from sticking around once they hit the "main stream".
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Joker86 on September 19, 2012, 08:19:19 pm
Don't try to Strawman me. My response to you wasn't about New Players and you know it. We are talking about, in your own words, REALLY casual casuals.

I don't know if I want to continue talking about it with you if you want to try to pull these bullshit debate team tactics. This is a discussion, not a high school event.

My post was exclusively about new players. There are new players and there are new players. Some look for a new game they can make their "hobby", others are just looking for a game they can play half an hour a day to relax and make stuff dead. I was talking about latter species, because the first kind of noobs doesn't really need much help.

STF can in no way be the solution, as it completely removes the important aspect of grind for heirlooms, which is an important part of the motivation for many players.

I am aiming towards maximizing the amount of players, and there is no other way to achieve the maximum numbers than by catering those who don't want to work themselves into the game as well. Every solution which requires dedication from the players, especially at the beginning, can't be a solution. That's why we can either disagree to maximize the amount of players as far as possible, or we agree on that and thus discuss measures which make learning the game easier. Because there is nothing in between there, not with the modern way information is handled and the way people act on the internet.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Rumblood on September 19, 2012, 08:35:38 pm
STF can in no way be the solution, as it completely removes the important aspect of grind for heirlooms, which is an important part of the motivation for many players.

Quit contradicting yourself. These players are REALLY casual casuals and therefore have NO interest in a grind be it for heirlooms or level or anything else. They just want to jump in and play.

You can't argue that motivation for them and so your point is invalid. Either they care about grinding and are NOT REALLY casual casuals, or they don't and therefore STF(renamed to INSTANT MAX LEVEL) works perfectly for them.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Joker86 on September 19, 2012, 09:27:31 pm
Actually I think you can play only half an hour a day just for the lulz and still be happy when you can retire every second month. I don't see me contradicting myself.

But to end the discussion, let's just rephrase my opinion:

I think it is really important (more than it ever was) for cRPG to attract and KEEP as many players as possible. That's why I think we should also cater those players, who are unwilling or even uncapable (doesn't need to be IQ, could also be missing English skills) to work themselves into the game a single bit further than the basics of fighting and buying equipment on the homepage. Being peasant of the first generation CAN be intimidating or demotivating for SOME players. This POSSIBILITY should be targeted nonetheless.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: IR_Kuoin on September 20, 2012, 12:00:53 am
Thread starting to float into my "To long to read posts" category.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Joker86 on September 20, 2012, 12:28:37 am
Thread starting to float into my "To long to read posts" category.

There are no too long posts, only too lazy users  :P
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: IR_Kuoin on September 20, 2012, 12:30:54 am
There are no too long posts, only too lazy users  :P

I'm not here to read, I'm here to make short unlogical, out of subject, spam messages.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Joker86 on September 20, 2012, 12:59:18 am
I'm not here to read, I'm here to make short unlogical, out of subject, spam messages.

Dang, I was just on my daily forum-see new replies-routine. I didn't notice I was in cRPG forum. My bad. As you were!  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Thomek on September 20, 2012, 01:43:07 am
Quit contradicting yourself. These players are REALLY casual casuals and therefore have NO interest in a grind be it for heirlooms or level or anything else. They just want to jump in and play.
You can't argue that motivation for them and so your point is invalid. Either they care about grinding and are NOT REALLY casual casuals, or they don't and therefore STF(renamed to INSTANT MAX LEVEL) works perfectly for them.

Rumblood, the players we are talking about are NOT the hardcore/love steep learning curves/joining forums guys. Basically: THEY ARE NOT LIKE US.  :)

So it makes a lot of sense that US at the forums are opposed to such ideas like easy learning curve etc.. :P  cause we hate that, personally.

Thing is, WE/US that are hardcore players in a sense.. will not suffer from more noobs to kill. Neither will the gameplay.

You cannot give heroin to any young naive fellow, he will simply refuse. You gotta start soft, with some weed, some speed, some E's, coke, mushrooms etc.. Eventually they are ready for heroin, and then their asses are ours. Cause cRPG is a bit like heroin.. Big leap to get into, but once you're hooked it gets you by the balls.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Rumblood on September 20, 2012, 02:16:54 am
What do you want? A download a year's worth of reflexive Warband skill, just follow this link? It should be easier to kill those skilled players? How? By making the game less skilled? Sorry, I wouldn't want to play that game, no matter how many people are playing it. I don't play World of Warcraft or similar games.

Click STF and build your Max Level Character. When you think you've got it figured out, put in a Switch to Main button where they can start at level 1 and start again (not a retire), but keep all the gold and equipment they earned on the STF character.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Jarlek on September 20, 2012, 02:20:09 am
Rumblood, the players we are talking about are NOT the hardcore/love steep learning curves/joining forums guys. Basically: THEY ARE NOT LIKE US.  :)

So it makes a lot of sense that US at the forums are opposed to such ideas like easy learning curve etc.. :P  cause we hate that, personally.

Thing is, WE/US that are hardcore players in a sense.. will not suffer from more noobs to kill. Neither will the gameplay.

You cannot give heroin to any young naive fellow, he will simply refuse. You gotta start soft, with some weed, some speed, some E's, coke, mushrooms etc.. Eventually they are ready for heroin, and then their asses are ours. Cause cRPG is a bit like heroin.. Big leap to get into, but once you're hooked it gets you by the balls.
If video games were drugs:

CoD is Weed, cRPG is Heroin.

This is actually pretty accurate :(
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Joker86 on September 20, 2012, 02:25:58 am
What do you want? A download a year's worth of reflexive Warband skill, just follow this link? It should be easier to kill those skilled players? How? By making the game less skilled?

No, those skilled players won't be killed more easily. But there will be enough other badly skilled players which can be killed by you very well. There is a difference if 90% of all players are better than you or 50%, for example. There is no need to lower the skill ceiling, like you are implying with WoW.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Thomek on September 20, 2012, 03:17:59 am
Not talking about lowering the skill ceiling here.. Just helping players a bit on the first gen thats all.

STF is more for experimenting and bored old players to have fun with. When you start out you want to progress, think most people play their STF's when their mains are all loomed up.

Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Rumblood on September 20, 2012, 03:38:50 am
When you start out you want to progress, think most people play their STF's when their mains are all loomed up.

Or when you don't know how to play. Let them switch an STF to Main with the same gear and gold they earned and the only thing they lose is a small amount of experience towards a retirement.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Patoson on September 20, 2012, 04:08:24 am
What do you want? A download a year's worth of reflexive Warband skill, just follow this link? It should be easier to kill those skilled players? How? By making the game less skilled? Sorry, I wouldn't want to play that game, no matter how many people are playing it. I don't play World of Warcraft or similar games.
In fact, cRPG resembles WoW in the sense of levelling (slow and tedious). We are talking about the opposite: faster levelling. Not like the origin of cRPG, but something in between.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Rumblood on September 20, 2012, 04:36:31 am
In fact, cRPG resembles WoW in the sense of levelling (slow and tedious). We are talking about the opposite: faster levelling. Not like the origin of cRPG, but something in between.

What will faster leveling do that STF won't instantly? It isn't about levels, it is about skill and try as much as you like, you won't level the playing field where skill is concerned except by reducing the required skill to play the game and do "well". The only valid complaint is they can't buy into cavalry right away. So give every new character a rouncey.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Zerran on September 20, 2012, 09:15:37 am
It really has very little to do with gear or level. Once you're around lvl 20 and have mid-tier gear, you've got a good enough setup to be able to contribute. The problem is that the playerbase is 90% veteran players (by which I mean people who have been playing for a year or more, let's not get into a terminology debate  :P) and even of that 10% remaining, most of them have been playing for a few months. So what we end up with is a situation where any new players are going up against people with vastly more experience. No matter what you do for them, it's going to suck until they get some practice. If you don't occasionally "air-out" the playerbase in a game as skill-dependent (or gear dependent), you will inevitably end up with a situation like this.

I don't have an answer for what we can do about this. The obvious solution is a huge influx of new players, and a steady stream of them after that. The only problem is we have very little control over that sort of thing.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on September 20, 2012, 06:33:07 pm
It really has very little to do with gear or level. Once you're around lvl 20 and have mid-tier gear, you've got a good enough setup to be able to contribute. The problem is that the playerbase is 90% veteran players (by which I mean people who have been playing for a year or more, let's not get into a terminology debate  :P) and even of that 10% remaining, most of them have been playing for a few months. So what we end up with is a situation where any new players are going up against people with vastly more experience. No matter what you do for them, it's going to suck until they get some practice. If you don't occasionally "air-out" the playerbase in a game as skill-dependent (or gear dependent), you will inevitably end up with a situation like this.

I don't have an answer for what we can do about this. The obvious solution is a huge influx of new players, and a steady stream of them after that. The only problem is we have very little control over that sort of th

Gear matters. A player will get more kills, survive longer due to dead enemies, in direct proportion to the speed and base damage of their weapon. This is a fact of crpg.

A player will survive more hits and force more glances in direct proportion to their armor value. Surviving longer to get more kills. This is also a fact of crpg.

Some players are use to certain weapons and armor weights than others. But I know for a fact that if I use a hatchet in a tunic I will not survive as long or kill as many if I was in mail with a broad axe.

Char level is most important, then gear, then skill.

I agree with your solution, get more noobs. Perhaps have a gen 1-3 only server instead of a 1-20 level.
 
Or a general no looms tdm server(more chances to die, kill, learn than battle or siege).
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Joker86 on September 20, 2012, 06:35:46 pm
Char level is most important, then gear, then skill.

This is only true on low levels. Like 1-15 or 1-20. Later skill becomes the decisive element. Level and gear only help.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: F i n on September 20, 2012, 06:39:10 pm
you should play on the below lvl 20 server. Your oponents are not allowed to use high tier equipment. and you get more xp!
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 20, 2012, 06:52:16 pm
I stopped reading at page 4.

The problem with some of the new players is that they come in thinking they are going to be able to 1v1 someone who's in higher level gear, has a lot more skills and attributes, and has been playing the game for 2 years.  And even veterans are in here arguing to make it easier for new players, but that's the wrong thing to do.  They should be learning how to fight as a team, we shouldn't be enabling their rambo/hero mentality, and we shouldn't be discussing the plights of new players with that thought in our heads.

The attitude is the problem is a lot of situations, not just with new players.  Your objective is to be a team player, it's to support your team in any way possible, to achieve victory.  Your objective is not to zerg rush the enemy and try to kill one person before being slaughtered by 20 enemies who surround you. 

Regardless of your class, every single new player should be using a pitchfork and sticking with a few infantry players to try and support them.  Now that you are all enlightened, please close this thread (it's the same one that pops up every week).
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Joker86 on September 20, 2012, 07:07:55 pm
Now that you are all enlightened, please close this thread (it's the same one that pops up every week).

You actually missed the topic  :P

It's not about lowering the skill ceiling, it's about preventing situations which can be frustrating for some new players, to prevent them of leaving. We can argue if we want to prevent them of leaving, but if we want (to keep the dwindling player numbers up), then we need to do something about it, because not everybody loves running around as a helpless peasant.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 20, 2012, 07:25:05 pm
Quote
not everybody loves running around as a helpless peasant

So what I said about attitude is 100% on topic.  That's the wrong attitude to have.  You're not a helpless peasant at gen 1, level 1.  You can very much contribute and help your team win rounds. 

If you go up 1v1 versus Cyranule as a level 1 peasant with a pitchfork, then yes, you are helpless. But you ideally wouldn't be in that situation until your teammates were all dead.  You should be fighting (insert good melee char here) with a group of your teammates, not by yourself.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: rustyspoon on September 20, 2012, 07:25:47 pm
Gear matters. A player will get more kills, survive longer due to dead enemies, in direct proportion to the speed and base damage of their weapon. This is a fact of crpg.

A player will survive more hits and force more glances in direct proportion to their armor value. Surviving longer to get more kills. This is also a fact of crpg.

Some players are use to certain weapons and armor weights than others. But I know for a fact that if I use a hatchet in a tunic I will not survive as long or kill as many if I was in mail with a broad axe.

Char level is most important, then gear, then skill.

I agree with your solution, get more noobs. Perhaps have a gen 1-3 only server instead of a 1-20 level.
 
Or a general no looms tdm server(more chances to die, kill, learn than battle or siege).

I definitely disagree with the gear part. Most gear (everything but the very bottom stuff usually) is very well balanced between itself. There are viable reasons to take a lower-tier piece of gear over another.

And though level is important, I still think skill is more important. Once you have 4PS and a blunt/pierce weapon, you can start getting TONS of kills if you know how to block and are good at dodging ranged. If you're raising your stats balanced, (alternating between agi and str) and you are being conservative with your points you can have a 12/12 2h/pole build at level 17. If you only ever get an x1, you can do that in 6 hours and 43 minutes. But as most people average out to a multi of x2, it will take you 3 hours and 21 minutes. Not that big of a deal.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Joker86 on September 20, 2012, 07:47:57 pm
So what I said about attitude is 100% on topic.  That's the wrong attitude to have.  You're not a helpless peasant at gen 1, level 1.  You can very much contribute and help your team win rounds. 

If you go up 1v1 versus Cyranule as a level 1 peasant with a pitchfork, then yes, you are helpless. But you ideally wouldn't be in that situation until your teammates were all dead.  You should be fighting (insert good melee char here) with a group of your teammates, not by yourself.

This is to be expected by a random 16 years old (at the best  :rolleyes: ) boy who just bought Warband on Steam sale and read about cRPG being the most popular mod? I fear I have to disagree.

Neither the mod description nor the general gameplay on the servers nor the manual nor the website or anything else tells you about teamplay. There are only those well hidden topics in the beginner section about it. Actually I think it is only the one topic Phazh and me and a few other contributed to, which is lingering somewhere in the lower third of the beginner guide forum.

To be honest, most veteran players in cRPG still have massive problems with teamplay.  :rolleyes:

I don't believe you if you claim that when you started playing cRPG you were exited about the teamplay you were going to enjoy with the others. You were exited about leveling your character, expecting to become powerful and well equipped and to find the most OP build to dominate everybody else and be as dangerous for the other as the top players were for you at that moment. cRPG is about YOUR character, YOUR skills, equipment and heirlooms, it's about YOUR progress. Until today I am waiting for the developers to make something into the direction of WE, but it seems like I can wait until I get grey hair... or let's say fully gray hair, because I am 26 and about 30% of my initially dark brown hair is already grey.  :lol:

New players connect to the servers in expectation of killing something. If they get the impression this game is something for nerds who have to grind forever and develop mad skillz, although they were only looking for a fun game which is not always the same boring Call of Duty shooter thingy but with the similar depth, then they will leave and never come back. And I find it's a pity, because even if they don't contribute anything else, they keep the servers populated and represent kills (=motivation) for other, more dedicated players.

Don't forget that cRPG/Warband is (still) unique in its kind. Players who don't know it and hear of a multiplayer game with persistant characters either think of something like World of Warcraft, where you are always fighting people of about the same level in PvP, or games like Call of Duty, where you can get better rifles and perks over time, but you are always able to shoot the highest level guy with your starting rifle. And if you got the better reflexes, it wasn't even really luck!

cRPG is unique in its difference between a lvl1 gen1 peasant player and a lvl 33 gen15 tincan player. I don't know a single game where the differences are that big which does not have any mechanics to prevent such incredibly unfair fights. There needs to be a reason for that.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Dexxtaa on September 20, 2012, 09:31:43 pm
Watch OP become the next big cRPG name.

Then he'll look back at this thread, mouse hovering over the "delete thread" button, and scoff at his former self, asking for a gentler learning curve.

A muttered "silly me" emerges from his lips, as he realizes how those hours spent dying at the hands of other combatants has taught him lessons he couldn't have learned otherwise. Lessons of patience, of perseverance and of communication.

The mouse moves away from the delete button, and he browses the rest of the forums, eager to find the next new fighter to the mod, and enthusiastically give them advice and empower them to be patient. Because in time, this young fighter will learn the same lessons he did; the lessons no one could tell him, but must be experienced.

He replies to the young fighter complaining about being killed too easily, and links this thread with the appended comment "I too, was once in your place. And you - such as I before you - will rise."
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Thomek on September 20, 2012, 09:55:40 pm
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Oh thats so sweet and romantic! +1
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Jarlek on September 20, 2012, 10:04:06 pm
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This should be saved and posted in every one of these threads.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Son Of Odin on September 21, 2012, 01:26:31 am
OP quit or hit at least level 27 and stopped whining? :D But seriously I think Dexxtaa sums these threads up nicely :).
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: tizzango on September 21, 2012, 02:08:49 am
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Sig.  It will be out of context for a lot of people but it's such a beautiful and inspiring piece of prose. I love you.


edit:: NVM couldn't fit into sig.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Thomek on September 21, 2012, 03:11:19 am
OP quit or hit at least level 27 and stopped whining? :D But seriously I think Dexxtaa sums these threads up nicely :).

I think you didn't catch my irony there. Totally agree with Dextaa on a personal level.. My point is that he talks from and too a certain group of players.

US THAT FOUGHT AND STAYED.

And we are becoming fewer and fewer and fewer by the day..

The point I'm trying to hammer through here, is that cRPG should ALSO cater to ANOTHER group of players if we want to increase the lifespan of cRPG.
WE won't suffer, cause we already have the skills, levels and looms we will ever need.

cRPG needs to make it easier for new players.. Let's be honest. Crpg was vastly easier when we began. When I started, hardly anyone could block i.ex...
I seriously don't know if I would stick to it if I started today. Miles and miles behind all the others, both in looms and skill... Let's face it, I spent the last 8 months grinding up to lvl34. I had all the looms I needed before that.. To reach my level and looms you would need to play approximately 20 generations.

Some first generation bonuses won't hurt us at all.. Even giving them some loompoints wouldn't be a problem if they couldn't be traded.

OP has a point imo.
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Elindor on September 21, 2012, 03:22:10 am
Awesome post Dexxtaa, I also see Thovex's point...

Leveling bonuses FIRST GEN wouldnt be bad.
Faster leveling FIRST GEN and/or starting at lvl 10 or so wouldn't kill anything....not sure it would SOLVE anything either though :)
Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Son Of Odin on September 21, 2012, 03:37:55 am
Hmm I guess it wouldn't hurt to get more fresh blood to the battlefield. More noobs to slay :twisted:. I'm not sure if crpg is losing much players at the moment but I say the more the merrier. What do you suggest Thomek? For once we agree on something (well at least we are not in complete disagreement :D).

As the M&B Warband itself gets older and older it naturally becomes harder to gain more players to mods because the game is not the newest hot topic in the bigger gaming blogs and forums anymore. I was thinking about giving gen 1 some free xp. Approximately up to level 25-30... As you probably guessed this suggestion has a big BUT(T). People have tendency to abuse such options. Old players trying to multiaccount to grind easy looms in this case. Sure we can catch some of those but I'm not completely 100% sure if it's always detectable... People are clever basterds when they want to find weak spots from systems. Sure it would put more pressure to the multiaccounting surveillance and banning. Otherwise good idea that has been suggested before countless times.

Maybe extra wpf/athletics/something boost for the first 8,7mil xp in first gen? Would not be extremely effective, but would give some chance to a new player to perform better against us veterans. Also grinding to over lvl 31 with first gen would be useless because the bonus would cease to exist after you hit 31. Opinions?

Title: Re: New Players need some love
Post by: Vibe on September 21, 2012, 07:43:25 am
Watch OP become the next big cRPG name.

Then he'll look back at this thread, mouse hovering over the "delete thread" button, and scoff at his former self, asking for a gentler learning curve.

A muttered "silly me" emerges from his lips, as he realizes how those hours spent dying at the hands of other combatants has taught him lessons he couldn't have learned otherwise. Lessons of patience, of perseverance and of communication.

The mouse moves away from the delete button, and he browses the rest of the forums, eager to find the next new fighter to the mod, and enthusiastically give them advice and empower them to be patient. Because in time, this young fighter will learn the same lessons he did; the lessons no one could tell him, but must be experienced.

He replies to the young fighter complaining about being killed too easily, and links this thread with the appended comment "I too, was once in your place. And you - such as I before you - will rise."

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