cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Teeth on September 15, 2012, 11:15:14 pm

Title: 2h stab madness
Post by: Teeth on September 15, 2012, 11:15:14 pm
It just takes five minutes on the duel server to figure out that the 2h stab is too strong. It´s 70% of the attacks the average 2h does. 2h stab compared to polearm stab used to be balanced. Polearm hit fast, but was low range. 2h stab was slower but had long range. Nowadays though the 2h stab can instastab just like the polearm stab can, making it very strong combined with +80 range. Whatever the devs did that made the 2h stab hitboxes so easy, undo it.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 15, 2012, 11:25:31 pm
This.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Kafein on September 15, 2012, 11:32:08 pm
Also note that pole stabs are broken, because they hit for full damage even when the weapon is already inside the enemy. And 1h stabs are broken because they do not bounce once in a blue moon, they should definetly always bounce.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 15, 2012, 11:35:28 pm
My main issue with 1h stabs is that if you chamber a stab due to the turnspeed issue  you'll 50% of the time glance off the guy you're fightings side, then the 2h full str full plate guy will onehit sideswing you.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Rebelyell on September 16, 2012, 12:50:58 am
I am 2h boy, I like to stab a lot, and i agree with that thread

sometimes I stab 3 times in the row like crazymotherfucker
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Smoothrich on September 16, 2012, 01:32:16 am
I got used to it and use the 2hand stab a lot now but I don't think its OP compared to the other weapons as they all got a similar buff.

Polearms always had an "instant stab" because it seems like the wind up of the thrust is shorter than the other weapons, and you can definitely facehug stab better with a polearm than with a 2hander.  Polearm thrusts still can rear horses which 2hand cannot, giving it versatility, along with all of the hoplite weapons and pikes giving them an edge over 2handers.

1hand stab is not much different than 2hand stab, gives about much of a reach bonus as the 1hand right swing (45 bonus I think) which makes 100 reach 1handers as long as great swords doing sideswings (only 25 bonus for 2hand sideswing).  Having the benefit of a shield keeps them in line with 2handers.

2handers still glance without a good speed bonus and positioning, I've glanced enough in duels and battle to see the limitations of it.  Its just easier to use while keeping your focus on an enemy instead of having to lolstab.  Still can downblock for a relatively longer stun on the attacker than any other attack.  Honestly not that great for dueling where a chamber or hiltslash will still hit quicker then an easily predictable stab.

Its fine, imo.


Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: DaveUKR on September 16, 2012, 01:42:22 am

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Smoothrich on September 16, 2012, 01:45:05 am
(click to show/hide)

Yes, pretty much this.  Good players can punish stabs pretty easily.  Even shielders can get in quick overheads with little to no room to react.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Lizard_man on September 16, 2012, 01:54:16 am
They do seem a little fast, can't comment on using it though...
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Rebelyell on September 16, 2012, 01:55:27 am
because  use that clever thing
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Miwiw on September 16, 2012, 02:02:05 am
(click to show/hide)

That kills me often.

Because of the stab I am using a German Greatsword. 26 p by default is a lot of damage, and deadly due to speed. :)

Maybe too overpowered, more than 50% of my attacks are stabs, maybe more than 60% of my dmg is caused by those.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Rebelyell on September 16, 2012, 02:06:59 am
all GS are for lazy peps
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Lizard_man on September 16, 2012, 02:07:07 am
because  use that clever thing

That's right, but i'm glad this topic came up. Two handed stabs just seem to come out of nowhere, they definitely need tweaking somewhat...
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: tizzango on September 16, 2012, 02:25:15 am
.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Leshma on September 16, 2012, 02:28:53 am
Also, in comparison to Native 2h'ing, cRPG 2h'ing is shockingly nerfed.

Just like everything else...
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Thomek on September 16, 2012, 02:31:26 am
Ok, but what about Katana stab then????? :D
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: tizzango on September 16, 2012, 02:33:40 am
Just like everything else...

I totally agree I was just merely referencing it so that people will remember how nerfed it is.. I mean, it could be a lot worst.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Tydeus on September 16, 2012, 03:10:11 am
Change 2h animations so they're like 1h, in that each swing is specialized. Having so few disadvantages to any of the 2h animations, I feel that the thrust is the only one that is actually specialized. If anything, I'd say change the horizontal swings so that they're more specialized, having clear disadvantages like the 1h ones do.

Thrusts are the only swings that 2hers have that really have any downsides. I don't believe that the thrust by itself is OP. I believe however, that the combination of their animations, their swing damage, and their speed, that allow two-handers to utilize the thrust so effectively without any downsides, makes for an overpowered weapon.

Disclaimer: By 2h I obviously mean greatswords, and not just the ones that have "Greatsword" in the name.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 16, 2012, 03:22:01 am
Ok, but what about Katana stab then????? :D
Still OP, easy mode and instant.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Latvian on September 16, 2012, 07:24:12 am
i am 2 h hero myself and i would  like lolstabb nerfed, it is insane how others use that stabb, other way is to reduce stabb damage so maybe people would think twice befor stabb, not even talking about insane reach anddamage it does. blah blah blah i just QQ.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Paul on September 16, 2012, 08:03:13 am
Players were complaining of the game being too slow. Now we have a high speed attack that can be punished with anticipational blocking. Now they complain it's too fast.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Ptolemy on September 16, 2012, 08:36:53 am
Players were complaining of the game being too slow. Now we have a high speed attack that can be punished with anticipational blocking. Now they complain it's too fast.

There's a difference between "fast" and "instant". As for "anticipational blocking", I find myself getting hit with stabs all the time even though I think to myself before it happens, "He's gunna stab, block down" and I do... then die anyway.

Also, agree on greatsword thrusts - they've always been too powerful and had too much reach.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: DaveUKR on September 16, 2012, 09:54:37 am
There's a difference between "fast" and "instant". As for "anticipational blocking", I find myself getting hit with stabs all the time even though I think to myself before it happens, "He's gunna stab, block down" and I do... then die anyway.

Also, agree on greatsword thrusts - they've always been too powerful and had too much reach.

If you fail against instastabs - then you don't have enough of reaction. Anyway, instastabs is something that can be done only by high STR users or against no armour. If you whine that your 45 gold 10 armour Black Hood with Mask doesn't defend your face - good day sir, quit roleplaying ninjas.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Piok on September 16, 2012, 10:03:46 am
Just give them polearm stab, they stop raging about instastab. This will change most 2hheroes to swordman form 4directional piker.
Some 2h sword price nerf then will be useful.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Cyclopsided on September 16, 2012, 10:12:15 am
Players were complaining of the game being too slow. Now we have a high speed attack that can be punished with anticipational blocking. Now they complain it's too fast.
crpg players are like women

They have no fucking idea what they want
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 16, 2012, 11:40:46 am
Players were complaining of the game being too slow. Now we have a high speed attack that can be punished with anticipational blocking. Now they complain it's too fast.
Maybe the main reason of the complaining is the fact that the only class that got that high speed attack fully working while still getting 65+ range is 2h....
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Kalp on September 16, 2012, 11:43:46 am
nerf 2h  :P
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Teeth on September 16, 2012, 11:55:12 am
Players were complaining of the game being too slow. Now we have a high speed attack that can be punished with anticipational blocking. Now they complain it's too fast.
What do you mean punished? I chamber them all the time but they just block. That's with a 91 speed weapon, with which I remember being able to get the chamber hit in without them being able to block. Doesn´t work anymore. Blocking the stab rarely stuns them enough to get a free hit in, even with an early rightswing hit.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Rebelyell on September 16, 2012, 12:21:47 pm
Players were complaining of the game being too slow. Now we have a high speed attack that can be punished with anticipational blocking. Now they complain it's too fast.
everyone whine but paul in my opinion you cans make super fast stab attack combo 1 after 1
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Leshma on September 16, 2012, 12:46:51 pm
Certain players know how to abuse this very well. There's nothing more retarded than fighting a player who lolstabs all the time.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Ptolemy on September 16, 2012, 01:35:44 pm
If you fail against instastabs - then you don't have enough of reaction. Anyway, instastabs is something that can be done only by high STR users or against no armour. If you whine that your 45 gold 10 armour Black Hood with Mask doesn't defend your face - good day sir, quit roleplaying ninjas.

1. I block *before* the stab because I know it's coming, please read what I write before you start telling me that I fail.
2. Dave doesn't know I'm the only ninja who uses +3 black hood with no mask. (14 armour btw, not that it makes any difference)
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: rustyspoon on September 16, 2012, 02:04:50 pm
Players were complaining of the game being too slow. Now we have a high speed attack that can be punished with anticipational blocking. Now they complain it's too fast.

The problem with increased speed is that it makes ping differences a huge issue. I'd rather have added complexity than speed.

So things like alternate attacks, fighting styles, etc.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 16, 2012, 02:43:50 pm
If you fail against instastabs - then you don't have enough of reaction. Anyway, instastabs is something that can be done only by high STR users or against no armour. If you whine that your 45 gold 10 armour Black Hood with Mask doesn't defend your face - good day sir, quit roleplaying ninjas.
So, if I pay 1mil for my weapons and you pay 10k for your head armor I should be able to beat you with no effort?
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Cyclopsided on September 16, 2012, 09:58:03 pm
The problem with increased speed is that it makes ping differences a huge issue. I'd rather have added complexity than speed.

So things like alternate attacks, fighting styles, etc.
I am on this boat if you asked me. I much prefer the slower (current) combat speed because it makes battles SOO much more interesting and variable.
Native is boring, block well and attack quickly and use a trick here and there, and TADA, win! Native dueling sucks.

Before I moved to my new place with shitty ping, I had a good 4 minute long duel with galgorth that was full of extremely intricate dueling tricks (Chambers, kicks, feintchambers, purposely glancing thrust to do instant side swings, Holding an attack until they release their block not some arbitrary tiny amount of time, of course feints but pffft they are dumb, tons of techniques). The depth of our fight and metagame is something that I've never seen replicated in faster speeds/native.
In fact, our playstyles were completely different and yet on par with one another.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Visconti on September 16, 2012, 10:01:51 pm
Its funny, because back when the 2h stab was slow, people complained about it, so they sped it up and gave it a shitty animation, and now people are complaining about it again?  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Teeth on September 16, 2012, 10:53:43 pm
Its funny, because back when the 2h stab was slow, people complained about it
wat? Who, the 2h? Yeah they sure have nothing to complain anymore. Come on, how can you look at the current 2h stab and not think it is retarded? Just look at your average 2h's behaviour. They know their stab is fucking strong, and use it all the time.

Players were complaining of the game being too slow. Now we have a high speed attack that can be punished with anticipational blocking. Now they complain it's too fast.
Yes, cause speeding up one specific attack for one class really adresses the slow game issue and not at all unbalances the pretty good balance that was there  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: ThePoopy on September 16, 2012, 11:33:21 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Visconti on September 16, 2012, 11:38:51 pm
wat? Who, the 2h? Yeah they sure have nothing to complain anymore. Come on, how can you look at the current 2h stab and not think it is retarded? Just look at your average 2h's behaviour. They know their stab is fucking strong, and use it all the time.
Yes, cause speeding up one specific attack for one class really adresses the slow game issue and not at all unbalances the pretty good balance that was there  :rolleyes:

I agree, the stab is the strongest attack on 2hs. But its no different from the right swing on polearms, or the left swing on 1hs. And what i meant is, people complained about the slow 2h stab because it would kind of hang out there for a second after the animation finished, because of how slow it was, so they could still get hit by it.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Cyclopsided on September 17, 2012, 12:00:14 am
I agree, the stab is the strongest attack on 2hs. But its no different from the right swing on polearms, or the left swing on 1hs. And what i meant is, people complained about the slow 2h stab because it would kind of hang out there for a second after the animation finished, because of how slow it was, so they could still get hit by it.
No, it is completely different from the right swing on pole arms and the 1h swings.
The right swing is the only decent side swing for poles, as the left is god awful.
The left swing for 1h is fast BUT short, it's right swing is long but slow. Pros and cons, situationally used.

There are downsides to the upside you reference for those weapons. 2h Does not have anything like that. It has the good (or best) side swings, and the best thrust.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Tydeus on September 17, 2012, 12:29:44 am
There are downsides to the upside you reference for those weapons. 2h Does not have anything like that. It has the good (or best) side swings, and the best thrust.
Actually, the thrust is the only 2h swing with a real downside. You're completely forgetting about thrust stun which is a major deterrent. I kill people all the time because of it. It's the reason why I favor the Miaodao and the Niuweidao.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Cyclopsided on September 17, 2012, 12:32:21 am
Actually, the thrust is the only 2h swing with a real downside. You're completely forgetting about thrust stun which is a major deterrent. I kill people all the time because of it. It's the reason why I favor the Miaodao and the Niuweidao.
No no, I'm not forgetting about it. Thrust stun sucks. It isn't even logical why the code has such a long thrust stun, 0.870 when others have much lower numbers for delay time.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Jarlek on September 17, 2012, 02:14:36 am
2h needs a nerf? No shit.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Siiem on September 17, 2012, 05:41:11 pm
I am 2h boy, I like to stab a lot, and i agree with that thread

sometimes I stab 3 times in the row like crazymotherfucker

This post immediately made me think of Forrest Gump... GJ rebel, gj.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Kafein on September 18, 2012, 08:20:04 pm
This post immediately made me think of Forrest Gump... GJ rebel, gj.

Coming from rebelyell, I don't think that was actually intented.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Bjord on September 18, 2012, 08:35:18 pm
Actually, the thrust is the only 2h swing with a real downside. You're completely forgetting about thrust stun which is a major deterrent. I kill people all the time because of it. It's the reason why I favor the Miaodao and the Niuweidao.

I just chamber the swing meant to hit during the stun. Lots of people do this on EU. And even if they do a hold, I just cancel the attack and block, by then the stun is gone.

If you went out of your way to use miadao(which is far from a dueling weapon), then too bad I guess.

And in battle, barely anyone has time to think about the thrust stun because so much is going on at the same time. I usually pay attention to the stuns, especially as I am one of the few using a Longsword on EU and it's easier to capitalize on stuns with a fast weapon.

Anyway, ATM, stun is a bit too viable with 2h. Needs a tweak, that's all.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: tizzango on September 21, 2012, 02:47:59 am
edit:: nvm, i see your point  :idea:
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: NuberT on September 21, 2012, 03:10:39 am
2h stab is like 3 times harder to chamber compared to polearm stab - just saying^^

idk why 2h stab animation was changed at all, 2h and polearm were both affected by turning limit + polearm by removal of polestun, but only 2h got compensated by imba stab..  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Kafein on September 21, 2012, 03:16:29 am
Strength:15
Agility:24

One Handed:1
Two Handed:172
Polearm:1
Throwing:1
Crossbow:1
Archery:1

Weapon Master:8
Athletics:8
Riding:0
Iron Flesh:2
Shield:0
Horse Archery:0
Power Strike:5
Power Draw:0
Power Throw:0

This, using peasant clothes and a greatsword, is just completely broken.

With 172 wpf I can 2-shot most players, the speed and acceleration lets me do trololo "footwork" that just allows me not to block at all (simple as that). The stab-that-can't-glance only adds to the retardedness of this.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Thomek on September 21, 2012, 03:32:31 am
S-key and long weapons..

Just something I've been complaining about since forever.. Long weapons are generally undervalued in the balance-formulas. Regardless of my katana lobbying!

:P

The reason why long axes and 2h completely dominate.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Bjord on September 21, 2012, 07:17:00 am
The only problem with 2h thrust is that slow weapons cannot capitalize on the stun thrust. You want to have a Longsword or something to hit them during stun thrust. :(
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: [ptx] on September 21, 2012, 09:01:06 am
I used to hate it, but nowadays i just chamberblock 2h thrusts, they're so easy... :)
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Teeth on September 21, 2012, 03:19:46 pm
I used to hate it, but nowadays i just chamberblock 2h thrusts, they're so easy... :)
I always used to do that, but it hits so weird now, either a bit early or a bit late. It's such a gamble if the chamber is going to work and even then they can block my overheads most of the time. The visual cue used to be correct. Just make sure your chamber meets the incoming blade, but that doesn't work at all anymore.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: [ptx] on September 21, 2012, 03:20:57 pm
Dunno, i rarely have any problems with this. HBS also hits them every time without giving them a chance of blocking.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Emotion on September 21, 2012, 03:51:47 pm
I as well, am a 2H Hero. I don't stab as often as others, but I STRONGLY agree with the nerf of the OP 2h stab. IMHO it's too fast and the animation doesn't represent the actually location of the weapon.

Thank you for reading.
          -Noodles
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Digglez on September 22, 2012, 11:56:00 pm
make all 2h sword stabs polearm mode, or make them like actual lunges that stun you if they fail.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Memento_Mori on September 23, 2012, 03:04:00 pm
2h stab is by far the most ugly (ugly as in not realistic, looks like some kind of anime move that only people with super human strength could pull off effectively) animation in all of warband, and is almost used more than a 1h uses their left swing.
the worst thing about the 2h stab is out ranging/out speeding spears/lances

Would be great to get an animation for 2h stabbing that actually made sense and didn't allow great sword users to kill cav ezpz or made the pole arm stab animations seem way more appealing than using the ez 2h stab.

(Who needs a long spear when you can use a GS, stab for support, and you got 4 directional attack for when you get singled out. + crazy speed, + crazy damage on all attack directions it's silliness that this hasn't really been dealt with.)
Why are the german/danish/longswords so much more popular than the flamberge?

Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: BlackMilk on September 23, 2012, 03:07:38 pm
2h stab is by far the most ugly (ugly as in not realistic, looks like some kind of anime move that only people with super human strength could pull off effectively) animation in all of warband, and is almost used more than a 1h uses their left swing.
the worst thing about the 2h stab is out ranging/out speeding spears/lances

Would be great to get an animation for 2h stabbing that actually made sense and didn't allow great sword users to kill cav ezpz or made the pole arm stab animations seem way more appealing than using the ez 2h stab.

(Who needs a long spear when you can use a GS, stab for support, and you got 4 directional attack for when you get singled out. + crazy speed, + crazy damage on all attack directions it's silliness that this hasn't really been dealt with.)
Why are the german/danish/longswords so much more popular than the flamberge?


Becuase the Flamberge is a worse yet more expensive version of the Great Long Bardiche?
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Smoothrich on September 23, 2012, 07:40:48 pm
katana users posting to nerf 2hand stab why i never
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: HarunYahya on September 23, 2012, 07:52:15 pm
2h stab is by far the most ugly (ugly as in not realistic, looks like some kind of anime move that only people with super human strength could pull off effectively) animation in all of warband, and is almost used more than a 1h uses their left swing.
the worst thing about the 2h stab is out ranging/out speeding spears/lances

Would be great to get an animation for 2h stabbing that actually made sense and didn't allow great sword users to kill cav ezpz or made the pole arm stab animations seem way more appealing than using the ez 2h stab.

(Who needs a long spear when you can use a GS, stab for support, and you got 4 directional attack for when you get singled out. + crazy speed, + crazy damage on all attack directions it's silliness that this hasn't really been dealt with.)
Why are the german/danish/longswords so much more popular than the flamberge?
He's right at every single point though.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Youhou on September 23, 2012, 08:22:25 pm
I find 2h stab one of the easiest things to block. People who have have problems with it are too eager to chamber or go for next attack or outrange it. Funny thing is that there is thrust stun which can give you free hit and one of my favourite tactics are running little back and going in when the animation is at its end causing nice glance and free hit. When I wasn't entirely used to stabs length I just held my downblock till enemy striked and I hear clink or changed attack direction. Also chambering 2h stab is relatively easy like all stabs.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Teeth on September 23, 2012, 08:44:59 pm
Also chambering 2h stab is relatively easy like all stabs.
Bullshit, the 2h stab is fubar now and there is no logical explanation for when to chamber. It hits either early or very late, making it a complete gamble to chamber. All stabs are weird like that now though, it's just that its most noticable on 2h cause they continously abuse it now. Apart from that you should not bring an argument that involves chambering to a balance discussion as 95% of the population doesn't do it. The other 5% rarely does it on battle.

2h stab is OP, the only ones who I saw disagree are 2h that use their stab and claim it's balanced because it has stab stun. Newsflash, so does the polearm stab, what does the polearm stab have going for it? That's right, nothing.

(click to show/hide)
What he said. 2h excels at everything.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Corsair831 on September 23, 2012, 09:05:23 pm
2h has always been easy mode noob class, but now it's 2h easy mode with super stab :/
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Youhou on September 23, 2012, 09:12:22 pm
Those arguments are just retarded; pike is far more superior support weapon than great sword. I hope I dont' have to tell you Teeth reasons for that... Many things in this game are unrealistic so you can't go with realism line in everything.

Yeah I'm 2h user but you are long spear user and you approved last post acclaiming that long spear sucks. Probably most reason you can't chamber is your weapon (pike and long spear have some glitches like stabbing through people) because I don't have problems with it. I also have to deal with stabs like everyone else and some are better at it than others so yes I have to block them.

Polearms can get almost instastab if they know what they are doing but it doesn't apply to longspears and pikes. Also swing length from sides (especially right swing) is huge and they have great damage. So yeah polearm is viable class.

And reasons why flamberge is not so popular is: Huge repair costs, slow, get stuck in crowds really easy, easy tk + swinging inside is almost impossible.

Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 23, 2012, 09:30:45 pm
I find 2h stab one of the easiest things to block. People who have have problems with it are too eager to chamber or go for next attack or outrange it. Funny thing is that there is thrust stun which can give you free hit and one of my favourite tactics are running little back and going in when the animation is at its end causing nice glance and free hit. When I wasn't entirely used to stabs length I just held my downblock till enemy striked and I hear clink or changed attack direction. Also chambering 2h stab is relatively easy like all stabs.
I wonder why you use a danish gaysword, sure almost make it sound UP...
Those arguments are just retarded; pike is far more superior support weapon than great sword. I hope I dont' have to tell you Teeth reasons for that... Many things in this game are unrealistic so you can't go with realism line in everything.

Yeah I'm 2h user but you are long spear user and you approved last post acclaiming that long spear sucks. Probably most reason you can't chamber is your weapon (pike and long spear have some glitches like stabbing through people) because I don't have problems with it. I also have to deal with stabs like everyone else and some are better at it than others so yes I have to block them.
No teeth isn't.
Polearms can get almost instastab if they know what they are doing but it doesn't apply to longspears and pikes. Also swing length from sides (especially right swing) is huge and they have great damage. So yeah polearm is viable class.
2h can get 100% instant stab at facehug range on light armored guys due to being retardedly op.
And reasons why flamberge is not so popular is: Huge repair costs, slow, get stuck in crowds really easy, easy tk + swinging inside is almost impossible.
All those things applies to 50% of polearms so...

Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Son Of Odin on September 23, 2012, 09:33:37 pm
Zlisch the horn of truth <3.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Youhou on September 23, 2012, 09:57:27 pm
(click to show/hide)

Well again every weapon get instastab on light targets. Polearm with skilled player gets on medium and higher grade armor targets too. And why use flamberge if you can get much better variety of polearm weapons. Also I just mentioned cons. No I am not making it underpowered, I'm just saying it's easy to down block because it's easiest block ingame.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Teeth on September 23, 2012, 10:12:34 pm
Actually Zlisch, I have been longspear abusing the past week.

Those arguments are just retarded; pike is far more superior support weapon than great sword. I hope I dont' have to tell you Teeth reasons for that...
Ofcourse it is. But the longspear has 86 speed, no overhead and is unbalanced as a trade off for being awesome in support. It's rather crap in a 1 vs 1. The German greatsword on the other hand. Gets a stab comparable to 170-180 length polearms, while having 4 excellent attack directions, 92 speed, it's not unbalanced and has awesome sideswing animations. It's arguably the best 1 vs 1 weapon and is pretty good in support aswell.

My main problem with the new 2h stab, is that it hits fast aswell as being fucking long range. Yes the polearm one hits fast aswell, but is not at all long range. 2h stab used to be slow, but long. Polearm stab used to be fast but short. Now 2h stab has it all. And I probably don't have to tell you how awesome having one attack that has +60 range is in team situations. Or even in a duel its amazing. You can always just chamber the stab and force your opponent to get in range as long as he has a below 160 range polearm or 1h.

Yeah I'm 2h user but you are long spear user and you approved last post acclaiming that long spear sucks. Probably most reason you can't chamber is your weapon (pike and long spear have some glitches like stabbing through people) because I don't have problems with it. I also have to deal with stabs like everyone else and some are better at it than others so yes I have to block them.
Nah, this experience comes from playing as a onehander aswell as playing with a german poleaxe. The chamber window of all stabs are pretty funky. You can't just rely on exactly meeting the incoming stab with t he chamber animation, cause the actual hit is way off when compared to the animation hit. Moreover, when I chamber a stab with a German Poleaxe overhead, they aren't actually stunned long enough most of the time and can just block.

Polearms can get almost instastab if they know what they are doing but it doesn't apply to longspears and pikes. Also swing length from sides (especially right swing) is huge and they have great damage. So yeah polearm is viable class.

And reasons why flamberge is not so popular is: Huge repair costs, slow, get stuck in crowds really easy, easy tk + swinging inside is almost impossible.
You need a polearm with about 135-140 range to have the same reach as a Danish and that is only with your rightswing and overhead. While he has that range with 3 of his attacks and ofcourse the almighty super ranged 2h stab. Not fantastic.

Another one of my issues with polearm/2h balance. Polearms get stuck much easier on objects and teammates. That makes a huge difference. Still I don't think polearms are that UP, its just that the 2h stab should not be able to hit that fast while having that range. It makes it way too strong, making every duel into a full on stabfest.

Greatswords have very little disadvantages, be honest.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 23, 2012, 10:38:19 pm
Zlisch the horn goat of truth <3.
fixed.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Jarlek on September 24, 2012, 12:01:44 am
Zlisch the horny goat of truth <3.
fixed.
Fixed
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Angantyr on September 24, 2012, 06:34:14 pm
The instastabs depend on STR and armor rating; with a balance 18-21 build I rarely if ever instastab (don't think I've ever done so after the changes), rather such attempts just bounce off impotently leaving one open for counter attack with the long stab stun and the hitbox has never felt smaller and more borked. You should try it for yourself a bit on an STF char, if you haven't already.

Certainly not saying 2h stabs are perfect in any way either, but as a 2hander I to the contrary notice 1h and polearm instastabbing and not 2h, rendered possible by an attack animation that pulls the character's arms farther behind him enabling a successful stab at much closer range than what is possible with a 2hander (at least with an AGI or balance build). I also don't see why polearms should suffer from environment and player collision more than 2h? After the new armor bouncing I get stuck everywhere with my GS, definitely not a very gangbang friendly weapon anymore. Interesting how things can look differently with different perspectives, always refreshing :)

Perhaps this is more a question of addressing strength's impact on the armor bounce formula?
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Shpritza on September 24, 2012, 06:45:37 pm
...u all whine to much, go play something else u whiners!   :wink:
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Son Of Odin on September 24, 2012, 06:48:58 pm
...u all whine to much, go play something else u whiners!   :wink:
Say that in a cav nerf QQ thread and the people eat your head. Guaranteed :mrgreen:
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Shpritza on September 24, 2012, 08:23:52 pm
Say that in a cav nerf QQ thread and the people eat your head. Guaranteed :mrgreen:

true story +1   :mrgreen:
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Tydeus on September 24, 2012, 09:28:05 pm
Such an easy way to sum this thread up: Current item balance puts length above any other stat.

1h, 2h, and polearms can all hit extremely early in their release animation on thrusts(personally, I give the edge to polearms as they have the most damage which makes them more inclined to hit early without glancing). This is testable and easily proven, not much point arguing about which can hit the earliest when it's only a few milliseconds of difference.

I'm more interested in how weapon speed affects how early someone can hit. I'm willing to bet it has almost no affect on the length of time between clicking to attack, and landing the thrust. This is an issue as you're completely disregarding the stat which is supposed to govern the time between chambering your attack, and landing a hit. This isn't anything new though. This has been around forever. PS and weapon damage have always allowed you to turn into your opponents on horizontal swings to hit early in your animation without glancing.

I think it's about time this was addressed.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Thomek on September 24, 2012, 09:52:14 pm
Like I've said since forever. Long weapons should be more unwieldy. They are simply so much better in battle..

Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: San on September 24, 2012, 10:59:07 pm
Bullshit, the 2h stab is fubar now and there is no logical explanation for when to chamber. It hits either early or very late, making it a complete gamble to chamber. All stabs are weird like that now though, it's just that its most noticable on 2h cause they continously abuse it now. Apart from that you should not bring an argument that involves chambering to a balance discussion as 95% of the population doesn't do it. The other 5% rarely does it on battle.

2h stab is OP, the only ones who I saw disagree are 2h that use their stab and claim it's balanced because it has stab stun. Newsflash, so does the polearm stab, what does the polearm stab have going for it? That's right, nothing.
What he said. 2h excels at everything.

I thought I was the only one having trouble chambering stabs recently.

You can still chamber them partially with a hold, it just comes out so quickly and the turn nerf didn't stop dragging at all. I think the person who made the image of 2h stab times summarized it best.

Stabs have just devolved into abusing the instant hit (while jumping backwards for polearms). I've even done this as hoplite with wacky weapons. I thought it was more interesting to spin.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Rubicon on September 28, 2012, 10:28:44 am
I've been played 2h with longsword for 2,5 years. Lately, after a break of 3 months i came back into cRPG with that new stab anim. I wasn't really a stab user unless against horses but now I voluntary use it more often since it's the most efficient attack i got, great damage + great reach.
The lost of spin accel is over-compensated by that Instastab, a bit too much IMO, And not to mention that it's even worse with Great swords..

Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Nordwolf on October 25, 2012, 06:53:43 pm
Thist topic needs continuation!
Now, any 2h builds are rather fast-swinging: str builds (like 27 15 or such) got buff from strength, and agility builds got buff from agility - self explaining.

I have been 2h handed a while ago and I have got 23 lvl 2 handed alt. This alt is very easy to play with 15 str and 15 agility, because you are hardhitting enough with it, and 15 agility is enough too.

So there is no point in another buff - overpowered stab.

Also I have not find any suggestions on how to nerf it (probably I'm not a good seeker):
I think making it sllower can compensate it's length and damage, and that is rather realistic.
Title: Re: 2h stab madness
Post by: Tzar on October 25, 2012, 06:59:03 pm
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