cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Tibe on September 13, 2012, 08:17:51 pm
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Besides lack range I just dont see it. And the lack of range gets compensated by speed when vs polearms/2h.
I dont really get wtf you guys talking about when you say 2h needs a bigass nerf. Ive been mainly 2h all my playtime, but ive also been 1h in a gen and few alts. Ive never felt underpowered. Id say I got same ammount of kills, even mybe bit more by fighting with 1h than 2h. 1h was buffed already. Its hits are about as powerful as 2hs and its quite well balanced currently.
Mybe yea, 1h isnt exactly the perfect tool for the job if you take on massive enemy groups and cav it cant deal with things like greatswords and mybe in a long duel the backpeddeling rangeaboozer might eventually win, but still. Its quite powerful and I dont really see how you could possibly balance it any better. Mybe its still the matter of whose infront of the screen? :rolleyes:
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Well you can be as effective as a 2h with a 1h str build and no shield ...
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No shield. Throwers and cbow, both basically pretty balanced. And str builds are extremely effective yes.
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Right now one handers feel like they got the shit end of the stick because their overheads and stabs got nerfed with everyone else's. Many of them haven't realized that the new stab animations can be ridiculously good, and that literally every single melee player hates the new overheads. They probably feel like the change to the stab is unjustified, and they'd be right, but it's not necessarily a bad thing.
Two handers aren't complaining as loudly as usual because they know (and I am a level 33 dedicated two hander) that something had to be done about the lolstab AND that the new quick stab animation is kind of stupid good if you can pull it off. Repeat that sentence for polearms, except replace 'lolstab' with 'helicopter stab'.
tl;dr: Everyone sad.
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Agreed, as mostly dedicated 2h myself, I can say that 70% of my deaths in 1 vs 1 is due to fail in lolstabbing.
PS: and dont only -1 me. Explain, educate me, cause I seriuslly dont know any better. :mrgreen: Tried both 2h and 1h for good perior of time and id say both are equal. I dont see a problem here.
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I think there is a reason why 80% of the players on duelservers are 2h, or why nearly all good players are 2h. Because of their animations they are very fast and they have a lot of reach (sometimes more than polearms).
It's very hard to attack a carousel spinning 2h as a shielder- you are slowed down by your heavy shield. I really dislike the fights with this class. It's just painful to have a spinning, lolfeintig enemy with a greatsword in front of you.. or behind you.. or at your flanks
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Lower range, damage, speed relative to damage, speed relative to range, no crushthrough.
Could go into detail but so tired of trying to explain it with all the people who still complains about greatswords being UP.
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i sometimes get feeling that 1 h right swing is longer than danish greatsword swing......
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Maybe the shield?
Overhead is much harder to use for 1h now?
I don't think it's gimp but these things could use improvements.
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Sure, 1h stabs and overheads may leave a lot to be desired, but they still have the fantastic left-swing. EVERYTHING IS FINE.
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You must have never played a balanced 1h build.
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Its hits are about as powerful as 2hs
This is false. The second cheapest 2h, the absolute cheapest being a wooden training weapon, does more damage than the most expensive 1h. Oh well that's a slow, unbalanced peasant weapon you say, so it's weaknesses make up for the fact that the 398 gold 1h peasant weapon does more damage than the 10,434 gold 1h. The cheapest 2h sword also does more damage than the most expensive 1h sword on swings, which make up 70% or more of attacks, by a massive 8. The 1h does have significantly more damage (7) on its comparatively much shorter and less frequently used stab, but the 1h is well over twice the price of the 2h, they are the same speed, and the 1h is longer by a negligible 2. The damage disparity increases as you look to 2h's approaching the price of the 1h. I'm not going to get into whether I think this is a good or bad thing right now, but to suggest that 1h are nearly as powerful as 2h suggests either stupidity or intellectual dishonesty caused by weapon-class allegiance.
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My biggest problem is that polearms and two handers can just swing wildly from RIGHT ontop of you and it does a good amount of damage while if you try a point blank one handed attack it bounces. Overhead, stab, right, and left will all bounce from close range while the poles just club you over and over again and the long swords will just hilt slash you into oblivious while you just frown.
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Yes, the 1h weapons do less damage than the 2h weapons.
They can also use a shield with them.
IMO balanced - although I sometimes find it hard to see what direction swings are going because of them having a shield that obscures their movements.
I'm not even going to get into shield and hammers/1h maces, Knockdown + omniblock = annoying as hell.
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Yes, the 1h weapons do less damage than the 2h weapons.
They can also use a shield with them.
IMO balanced - although I sometimes find it hard to see what direction swings are going because of them having a shield that obscures their movements.
I'm not even going to get into shield and hammers/1h maces, Knockdown + omniblock = annoying as hell.
You know, shields are a non-issue if people would start carrying around an axe. 3-4 hits, bye bye shield.
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I have been focusing on my 1h a lot lately, and I am now under the impression that the best thing that could happen to melee weapon class balance, as far as 1hers are concerned, is if all weapons got a ~3 cut damage buff. One-handed weapon damage is so poor (aside from picks or the warhammer) that it restricts effectiveness with varying builds. Both the Polearm and Two-Handed weapon classes can be very effective(comparatively) with a 4 PS build. A 4 PS build as a 1her means that to kill opponents, you have to land three to five times the amount of hits that are required to kill you. Using a Flanged mace, on my 3PS character in a duel against a plate wearing enemy, I knocked him down three times and landed a total of 15 hits before he died. This is with huge speed bonuses on nearly every hit, 10 athletics against three, light armor against plate.
Comparing unloomed weapons at 9 Str, a two-hander can do 37 cut damage, a one hander can only do 31. At 12 str, a two-hander can do 42, a 1h is stuck with 33c or 35c if he wanted to use an axe(very short, just another limiting factor). Certainly it isn't the ability to use a shield that calls a 2 cut growth compared to 5, balance, assuming there even is such a thing here. 1h may be near balanced for light armor, but the more you add, the further imbalanced things get.
Edit: The only saving grace for 1h currently, is that right now there is consistently an abnormally high amount of ranged fighting going on.
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You know, shields are a non-issue if people would start carrying around an axe. 3-4 hits, bye bye shield.
Forcing people to change their weapon is not a good way of balancing. We're already practically being forced to carry throw-away spears to deal with cav, now you want everyone to switch from a sword to an axe, to counter shields?
We end up like this:
Every 1h: Shield + Broad One Handed Battle Axe + War Spear
Every 2h: Great Axe/Bardiche + Bamboo Spear/War Spear
Every Pole: Great Long Axe/German Poleaxe + Bamboo Spear/War Spear
Might as well remove 90% of the armour too, I mean, who really needs more than a Gambeson for archers, Kuyak for the heroes and Gothic Plate with Bevor for the tincans, right?
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You know, shields are a non-issue if people would start carrying around an axe. 3-4 hits, bye bye shield.
Even with my dadao I can hit their shield multiple times because shielders don't realize that range is not their friend. I just backpedaled and spammed, they never even tried to attack. Also, some shielders don't realize that manually blocking after your shield is broken is important when your weapon is outclassed by my dadao.
Now back to OP:
2-handers got length and damage.
1-handers have shield potential, slots, price, and speed.
And the speed advantage is not that significant if you look at the faster 2-hand swords (5 swords faster than 98 speed) compared to faster 1-hand swords (15 swords [not counting anything cheaper than 1500] faster than 100.
Lots of people don't really care about price.
And slots is mostly useful for archers, x-bow, anyone who uses more than 1 type of weapon.
Shields are probably the biggest advantage unless you are very concerned about speed. Shields allow you to stop arrows, omniblock, and shield wall. Shields can break however. With a broken shield you got your little weapon vs my 2-handed killing machine.
If 1-handers realize range is an enemy and that they need to get close and use superior weapon speed then it is more fair. The 1-handed vs 2-handed is similar to Katana vs. Greatswords. It is all about speed vs. damage and length.
I think 1-handers are pretty balanced. If you get your PS and Prof. in 1-hand high you can deal some damage with a fast weapon.
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Lower range, damage, speed relative to damage, speed relative to range, no crushthrough.
Could go into detail but so tired of trying to explain it with all the people who still complains about greatswords being UP.
Such a person doesnt exsist that thinks Greatswords are underpowered. Mybe there is slight OP in 2h, but its not massive that we should start a nerf. Im just sayin there is no way to balance the current situation any better. Think about it. If you buff 1h to give out more dam than currently, you whould have a superfast weapon, that can be used with shield and does immense ammount of damage, takes few sloths and is lightweight.
Ive also heard a suggestion that they should make greatswords way more slower but give out way more damage. Well thats pointless dont you think? Cause everybody would just go polearm than. And if you nerf that too the only melee weapons that whould have a point whould be long mauls and 1hs. Cause why the hell would you bother with a slowass 2h when you can just crush trough blocks.
All a 1h user really needs is a str build and it can easly compete with 2hs. Cause it already has speed, you only need the powa.
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The 1h cut weapons are a little weak and the right swing animation is a bit slow. It's pretty easy to get hits with any 1h. Unloomed cut 1hs are a pain to use sometimes, mostly because you are a slave to the RNG for clean hits many times. 1h cut weapons just don't scale well to the crpg community full of loomed armor pushing up the average armor value.
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The 1h cut weapons are a little weak and the right swing animation is a bit slow. It's pretty easy to get hits with any 1h. Unloomed cut 1hs are a pain to use sometimes, mostly because you are a slave to the RNG for clean hits many times. 1h cut weapons just don't scale well to the crpg community full of loomed armor pushing up the average armor value.
As all lower damaging weapons looming increases their effectivity. As for 1h swords their damage is perfectly fine. Problem is when you compare 1h swords to OP thingies like steel pick, militarypick, warhammer.
If you compare steel pick to bec it is way faster and does only 2 less damage even thing like english bill does smaller dam. actually in polearms category only bec is doing bigger damage on swing. But try using shield with bec and bec is considered by many OP (not by me).
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Forcing people to change their weapon is not a good way of balancing. We're already practically being forced to carry throw-away spears to deal with cav, now you want everyone to switch from a sword to an axe, to counter shields?
We end up like this:
Every 1h: Shield + Broad One Handed Battle Axe + War Spear
Every 2h: Great Axe/Bardiche + Bamboo Spear/War Spear
Every Pole: Great Long Axe/German Poleaxe + Bamboo Spear/War Spear
Might as well remove 90% of the armour too, I mean, who really needs more than a Gambeson for archers, Kuyak for the heroes and Gothic Plate with Bevor for the tincans, right?
lol?
I forgot that a 2h sword needs to be the most effective thing vs anything in the game or it is considered underpowered.
If you need to carry a spear along with a 2h sword just for cav, I question your skill with a 2hander. Also even if you don't have an axe, most shields break pretty damn quick. If you have one though, they are a complete non-issue. But you don't even need an axe. You could use that monster of a 2hander, the morning star. That thing poops on shields and other players.
All I heard from your post though was, "Herp derp. This game is unbalanced unless my 2-handed sword is the best vs everything in the game."
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gg fighting a STR stacker in a lot of armor with a balanced 1h build, best to just run away
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gg fighting a STR stacker in a lot of armor with a balanced 1h build, best to just run away
I'd agree, if not for how common this play style is and to be honest, you really don't need to stack str, you only need 55~+ armor. You're basically saying that play style is the paper while you're the rock. If you're going to have RPS type mechanics, it's no longer balanced even for that type of system if you find yourself having to run from half the players you come across. Assuming again that the best method is just to run, you're breaking balance for strategus where you may come across the entirety of the other team wearing plate.
Again, just buff damage for all melee weapons, Polearms, Two-Handed weapons, One-Handers by about 3 damage. 1h isn't weak because 2h/poles do too much more damage, it's because they can break through armor so much easier.
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I'd agree, if not for how common this play style is and to be honest, you really don't need to stack str, you only need 55~+ armor. You're basically saying that play style is the paper while you're the rock. If you're going to have RPS type mechanics, it's no longer balanced even for that type of system if you find yourself having to run from half the players you come across. Assuming again that the best method is just to run, you're breaking balance for strategus where you may come across the entirety of the other team wearing plate.
Again, just buff damage for all melee weapons, Polearms, Two-Handed weapons, One-Handers by about 3 damage. 1h isn't weak because 2h/poles do too much more damage, it's because they can break through armor so much easier.
You only buff pierce and blunt damage weapon this way and they become even more OP and popular.
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Besides lack range I just dont see it. And the lack of range gets compensated by speed when vs polearms/2h.
I dont really get wtf you guys talking about when you say 2h needs a bigass nerf. Ive been mainly 2h all my playtime, but ive also been 1h in a gen and few alts. Ive never felt underpowered. Id say I got same ammount of kills, even mybe bit more by fighting with 1h than 2h. 1h was buffed already. Its hits are about as powerful as 2hs and its quite well balanced currently.
Mybe yea, 1h isnt exactly the perfect tool for the job if you take on massive enemy groups and cav it cant deal with things like greatswords and mybe in a long duel the backpeddeling rangeaboozer might eventually win, but still. Its quite powerful and I dont really see how you could possibly balance it any better. Mybe its still the matter of whose infront of the screen? :rolleyes:
Let's see.
- Waaaay less damage
- Less range
- Equal and even lower speed as 1h animations don't allow for instant hit turn abuse
- No crushthrough weapons
- Some of them have to be used super carefully as up to three attack directions will just get you killed instantly depending on the situation
- Getting stuck in walls and other static objects whereas longer 2h and poles do not
- Hitting your teammates behind you with overheads even though it doesn't make any sense
- Getting blockstunned even when you got a shield (also when you have a shield there's no way to know you are stunned other than trying to attack and blocking a bar mace with your forehead)
- The damage is so bad the agi half of the build spectrum just becomes useless for 1h. Which in turn makes agi 2h horrible opponents for 1h due to the abusing "footwork" they can pull off. Being forced to block three time to be able to attempt a swing once is bollocks.
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- Getting stuck in walls and other static object whereas longer 2h and poles do not
- Hitting your teammates behind you with overheads even though it doesn't make any sense
These two simply are not 1h specific problems.
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These two simply are not 1h specific problems.
They are not specific to 1h. But that's fucked up, because the absence of these problems should be specific to 1h.
Also, 2h and poles don't get stuck enough. I've seen people swinging greatswords even when at the start of their animation the weapon model was entirely hidden in a wall.
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They are not specific to 1h. But that's fucked up, because the absence of these problems should be specific to 1h.
So, 1h should ignore the physics of the game? And then be able to hit through walls etc? We should have less of that, not more.
I think you are being overly biased here.
Also, 2h and poles don't get stuck enough. I've seen people swinging greatswords even when at the start of their animation the weapon model was entirely hidden in a wall.
The 2h animations are rather forgiving. But I find calls for making my 115 length "long axe" get stuck in walls even more a little absurd.
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The 2h animations are rather forgiving. But I find calls for making my 115 length "long axe" get stuck in walls even more a little absurd.
My 95 length katana bounces off the wall all the damn time - even when I'm nowhere near it.
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My 95 length katana bounces off the wall all the damn time - even when I'm nowhere near it.
Well, all weapons do that. But I think we can agree that no weapon should completely ignore walls.
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My point is that yet again, someone is crying about 2h being able to do something that it just can't. The katana is a 2h weapon, yet it doesn't out-range you, it can't swing through walls, you can't spam it (unless your opponent is an idiot) and you can't lolstab with it.
People complain about "2handers" when what they mean is "greatswords". Pisses me off.
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My 95 length katana bounces off the wall all the damn time - even when I'm nowhere near it.
Your katana is far from UP, greatswords are OP, not my old friendtanas, but you certainly are still using a rather great weapon and the katana is faster than several 1h swords so go fuck yourself.
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Well you can be as effective as a 2h with a 1h str build and no shield ...
You can't , you get stun locked anytime you block a swing from a 2h or polearm.
Do not post in suggestion board unless you have some experience with subject of the thread please .
You'll just derail the topic and start a cross-class buff/nerf hate war with your fail arguments.
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I would agree with Tydeus that 1h swords are a bit gimped, you really need 7-8 PS and a +3 sword to hurt people with more than 55 armor. This is especially tough on NA siege which is currently being dominated by KUTT running tons of str builds with 70-80 armor, 1h sword users are basically screwed. You shouldn't need to know sweetspots, holds and footwork expertly to land hits with a 1h sword, it really hurts average skill/newer players who want to be a balanced shield class for mobility and survivability. The harder hitting 1h weps like blunt and pierce are tough for newbies to use also cuz they are usually short or have other downsides. You contrast this with how easy it is for anyone to pickup a 2h and get kills by swinging away and something is a bit off with 1h.
So 1h is a bit strange cuz it's a very powerful setup in the hands of a top player but it has a very steep learning curve, probably the steepest in the game. So you see skilled veteren shielders like San, Arrowaine, Diggles, Rustyspoon, etc. topping charts but at same time I've seen ace 2h/PA players like Wesley, Decius, AngryBumbleebee pickup shields and not do so hot, just cuz they don't know the ins-and-outs of the style and doing the wrong 1h attacks in a situation where a similar 2h attack would prolly work.
The real prob is that it's very difficult to land hits realiably with any hit besides left swing until you really know what you are doing. Right swing has unorthodox sweet spots that causes newer guys to glance a lot, overhead will now really get you into trouble if you don't know what you are doing cuz you will miss a fast moving target at close range, and stab is always kinda tricky. I have to tell new 1h I am helping to just focus on attacking with left swing 80-90% of time, cuz all they do is glance and miss doing anything else. Once they get that down then I teach them holds and feints for left swing, so they get through defences more.
Tydeus solution of bumping damage by +3 across the board could help without radically changing anything, it would probably reduce the 1h learning curve by making non-left swings glace less. I hope the devs don't radically change 1h too much cuz I have spent a long time playing it, and like to think I have learned the intracies quite well and with 38c and 8ps can beat just about anyone even super heavies (given enough time)
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It's not underpowered, it's the best infantry class once you master it.
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It's not underpowered, it's the best infantry class once you master it.
^
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I think that it's difficult to say that something is bad only because you compare one of its sides to anything else. The main purpose of playing 1hander is not the duelling. Onehanded weapons have their pluses over other weapons, same with polearms and same with twohanded. They're just different and they should stay different. Don't forget that:
1) Onehanders are 1 slot
2) They can be used with shield
3) The most expensive 1hander costs 1+k cheaper than the cheapest Great Sword (Heavy Great Sword)
I think that melee classes are more or less balanced. The only issue is strength builds (which will get fixed sooner or later). Cavalry and ranged are something that needs working at.
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I think all the classes are pretty well balanced. I do agree with Tydeus and Turboflex that sword damage could use a bit of a buff though.
Cut is hands down the worst damage type in the game. It also scales terribly. The higher the armor goes, cut damage gets exponentially worse. Add to the fact that 1handers have low initial damage and that PS scales terribly with 1h weapons. Needing 10+ hits to take down some guy in plate isn't fun.
Still, I think that 1h is the most fun and rewarding playstyle in the game. 1h no shield is a hilarious amount of fun. I also think that shielders are the overall most useful class in the game. If you ever had a good group of shielders working together, they could easily take apart other teams. Unfortunately though, most people don't spend enough time with the class to get to the point where it's really rewarding. 1h has a pretty steep learning curve. Most new people start off as a 1-hander, get their asses beat constantly and then decide to go 2h and never look back thinking the 1h playstyle is "weak."
Those few people who stick with it though, really see how crazy strong it becomes.
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Okay I kinda get it now.
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I think that it's difficult to say that something is bad only because you compare one of its sides to anything else. The main purpose of playing 1hander is not the duelling. Onehanded weapons have their pluses over other weapons, same with polearms and same with twohanded. They're just different and they should stay different. Don't forget that:
1) Onehanders are 1 slot
So are quite a few 2h
2) They can be used with shield
So can quite a few 2h, and while they use 1h wpf while using a shield it's not like shields are that great at anything besides blocking arrows, and you don't need wpf for that.
3) The most expensive 1hander costs 1+k cheaper than the cheapest Great Sword (Heavy Great Sword)
Upkeep doesn't mean shit.
I think that melee classes are more or less balanced. The only issue is strength builds (which will get fixed sooner or later). Cavalry and ranged are something that needs working at.
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Can''t say anything about 1h with shield, but 1h without shield is not that strong in battle, great for duel, but I'm doing a lot better as a polearmer on battle.
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1h no shield definitely gets handled by cav and sometimes ranged, although it is pretty adept in melee. My 1h no shield only has a 2.4 kd compared to 3.8 for my main just because of how hoplite and shield wards off those cav.
1h has more limited, yet more specialized swings. There are such things as the wrong and right swing in addition to footwork for sweetspots. The issue is how armor scales and makes a vast majority of the cut weapons gimped. In addition, the blunt and pierce weapons vastly increase in damage from looms moreso than the cut weapons.
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Yeah he's right, 1h is not underpowered, it's OP because it has 200 ghostreach when stabbing, stun, and can be swapped into throwing weapons whenever necessary.
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Yeah he's right, 1h is not underpowered, it's OP because it
has 200 ghostreach when stabbing
2h got a longer stab anim, 1h stab glances more and is generally worse, it doesn't have ghost reach you're bullshitting.
stun
1h got low enough weight to get stunned and all weapons stun when they hit someone.
and can be swapped into throwing weapons whenever necessary.
2h don't have throwing weapons but polearms do, the throwing lance is a rather good melee weapon and while the spears/javs suck they still function in melee and are great at range.
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Yeah he's right, 1h is not underpowered, it's OP because it has 200 ghostreach when stabbing, stun, and can be swapped into throwing weapons whenever necessary.
I'm pretty sure this is not exclusive to 1 handers, the ability to use throwing :|
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1) Onehanders are 1 slot
So are quite a few 2h
2) They can be used with shield
So can quite a few 2h, and while they use 1h wpf while using a shield it's not like shields are that great at anything besides blocking arrows, and you don't need wpf for that.
3) The most expensive 1hander costs 1+k cheaper than the cheapest Great Sword (Heavy Great Sword)
Upkeep doesn't mean shit.
Zlisch, first of all you're retarded kid who is giving -1 to all posts of everyone no matter what. You're probably jelly that others have less infamy than you :lol:. Secondly, you're retarded kid who is saying shit. Quite a few 2h with 1 slot? There is only 1 (one, UNO) 2hander which uses 1slot - Mace, there is a couple of 1handers with twohanded mode, but they're onehanded weapons afterall. Third, you're retarded kid because 2handers in 1h mode use 1handed wpf and they get like 20% penalty to damage and some penalty to speed IIRC. Forth, you're retarded kid because shields are very good things for pretty much everything - they can save you against ranged spam, any kind of spammers, HORSE COUCH in the end. Fifth, you're retarded kid because upkeep means a lot for those who use some kind of weapons constantly. Sixth, you're retarded kid because you're a kid and retarded. Enough said :lol:
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That's a lot of retarded and kid, Dave. :)
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Because 1h stab is HARD
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Zlisch, first of all you're retarded kid who is giving -1 to all posts of everyone no matter what. You're probably jelly that others have less infamy than you :lol:. Secondly, you're retarded kid who is saying shit. Quite a few 2h with 1 slot? There is only 1 (one, UNO) 2hander which uses 1slot - Mace, there is a couple of 1handers with twohanded mode, but they're onehanded weapons afterall. Third, you're retarded kid because 2handers in 1h mode use 1handed wpf and they get like 20% penalty to damage and some penalty to speed IIRC. Forth, you're retarded kid because shields are very good things for pretty much everything - they can save you against ranged spam, any kind of spammers, HORSE COUCH in the end. Fifth, you're retarded kid because upkeep means a lot for those who use some kind of weapons constantly. Sixth, you're retarded kid because you're a kid and retarded. Enough said :lol:
First: Once you can block half efficiently shields are more of a penalty in most situations, only good against range, and not like you can block arrows from the 100 archers surrounding you while fighting anyway, and until then you can use your 2h in 1h mode to defend against random surprise attacks.
Secondly: I only -1 the posts you make I disagree with, not my fault "you're a retarded kid" who happen to have very stupid opinions on stuff.
Third: Weapons in 1h which got 2h modes are perfectly viable 2h weapons, and they can be used with a shield with no penalty, claiming they don't work as 2h 'cuss they're in the 1h section is just you being a "retarded kid".
Fourth: You might consider not calling other people kids until you learn to spell fourth... Fifth: Upkeep still doesn't matter 'cuss everyone got endless looms and after selling 1 loompoint you can go a gen in full plate and plated charger so "you're a retarded kid"...
Sixth: You're a retarded kid because you're a kid and retarded (and because the correct way to write "You're retarded kid" is "You're a retarded kid").
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Dear Tears of Destiny,
if you do not stop posting gifs I will stab you with a khyber knife. Posting gifs is Son of Odins job.
Love, Zlisch.
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Dear Tears of Destiny,
if you do not stop posting gifs I will stab you with a khyber knife. Posting gifs is Son of Odins job.
Love, Zlisch.
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1h got low enough weight to get stunned and all weapons stun when they hit someone.
I was able to stun your wakizashi about 1/10 times when doing held overheads with a 3.5 weight long bardiche. Dunno what the fuck they did to stun, but it's pretty much a non factor. Never really had problems at all with it in 30 million xp as a 1h without shield.
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I was able to stun your wakizashi about 1/10 times when doing held overheads with a 3.5 weight long bardiche. Dunno what the fuck they did to stun, but it's pretty much a non factor. Never really had problems at all with it in 30 million xp as a 1h without shield.
Teeth, either the duel server is bugged or you're not holding properly, I got stunned 4 times today on EU_Melee.
(love you Thovex for getting that shit back up btw)
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You only buff pierce and blunt damage weapon this way and they become even more OP and popular.
I have been focusing on my 1h a lot lately, and I am now under the impression that the best thing that could happen to melee weapon class balance, as far as 1hers are concerned, is if all weapons got a ~3 cut damage buff.
From further up the page. I don't actually mean +3 damage, nor do I mean 3 cut, as that would mean pierce and blunt weapons aren't getting changed. What I mean is roughly 5-10% more numerical damage on weapons. This would actually affect the weaker weapons the most.
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So, 1h should ignore the physics of the game? And then be able to hit through walls etc? We should have less of that, not more.
I think you are being overly biased here.
The 2h animations are rather forgiving. But I find calls for making my 115 length "long axe" get stuck in walls even more a little absurd.
I think you are interpreting my words as those of a biased person.
I do not wish 1h to ignore object or teammate collisions, just that their smaller length actually matters and reduces the problem, at least when compared to 2h.
If you play siege often it's pretty evident you can make your 2h weapon model go through walls and be fine, but even slightly doing so with 1h results in blocked swings. This is most probably due to 1h overly dramatic animations.
Short lenght weapons should have the advantage of not colliding as much in walls, but currently it's almost a non-issue. And that's why 90% of 2h kills are made by greatswords.
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If you ever encounter good one handers such as Dalhi, Olwen, Renegat and some others using cut damaging 1h you will never want to buff them :mrgreen:
But its silly that such small weapon like steelpick do more damage then slow and massive english bill :evil:
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Teeth, either the duel server is bugged or you're not holding properly, I got stunned 4 times today on EU_Melee.
(love you Thovex for getting that shit back up btw)
MB because EU_melee is a private outdated server with older version of WSE? There is also a polestagger, disabled ability to attack while jumping with ranged weapons, etc. You should also remember that you can't stun anyone with a thrust and it's like 2 times more difficult to stun with side swings than overhead.
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You shouldn't need to know sweetspots, holds and footwork expertly to land hits with a 1h sword, it really hurts average skill/newer players who want to be a balanced shield class for mobility and survivability.
Translation: I should be able to take a 1handed sword, do awesome damage while not being very good at the game at all, put no effort into learning how to better my techniques or footwork while being able to move around as well as any agi build and survive like a str build.
Just added you to my list of "People I never need to read a post from ever again".
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I don't think there was any change to (defender) block stun ever. At least I can't remember any. I took another look at the stun code cmp delievered some time ago and I found several things interesting:
1) There are only 2 different stun lengths, short(practically no stun) and long. Several attacker and defender variables(like weapon/shield weight) are used to figure out which of the two is used.
2) Attacker's weapon weight is only used for sideswings. Overhead gets a fixed bonus. Weapons above 3(?) weight should actually stun better on side swings(sceptical here, got to test). Defender weapon/shield weight is always used.
4) Blunt gets a bonus for attacker.
5) Attacker weapon gets most bonus if it's a 2h, then polearm, 1h is worst. Defender weapon gets most bonus if it's a polearm, then 2h, again 1h(no shield) is worst.
6) The slower the defender weapon the better it is to prevent stun. Does not apply for shields.
7) Stabs can't stun. Attacks with a hold bonus below 1.2(<0.2s holding time I think) can't stun. Holding time between 0.5s and 0.6s gets most stun chance. Holding for longer lowers stun chance again. Doesn't go lower after 1.1s or more though.
8) Wider shields are better at defending against stun.
There was still some unknown stuff in the code which might be include raw damage(so overhead gets a buff) or speed bonus.
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Funny how my comment before woke up so many hostilities and disagreements. I was being ironic, because 1h has not 200 reach when it stabs, 2h does, 1h does not have stun when it hits, polearms do have, and the simple idea that 1h can be converted into throwing weapons is just way to retarded that everyone should have realised by then (the shorty ones) that I was being ironic. In other words, 1h / no shield is underpowered.
Btw Paul now that I got you, whats up with Rageball?
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1h does not have stun when it hits, polearms do have,
:shock:
Btw Paul now that I got you, whats up with Rageball?
DEAD! :cry: :cry: :cry:
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blame chadz
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blame chadz
Fuck off.
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7) Stabs can't stun. Attacks with a hold bonus below 1.2(<0.2s holding time I think) can't stun. Holding time between 0.5s and 0.6s gets most stun chance. Holding for longer lowers stun chance again. Doesn't go lower after 1.1s or more though.
8) Wider shields are better at defending against stun.
There was still some unknown stuff in the code which might be include raw damage(so overhead gets a buff) or speed bonus.
So hold stun bonus coincides with the hold damage bonus then, if I'm not mistaken. Correct?
Clearly I don't use my shield enough as I had no idea you could actually got stunned with your shield, outside of crushthrough. I have always thought, for anyone who has manual blocking skills, it's better to fight without your shield when fighting a single opponent. Question is, what advantages does the shield actually provide over blocking with your weapon?
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Translation: I should be able to take a 1handed sword, do awesome damage while not being very good at the game at all, put no effort into learning how to better my techniques or footwork while being able to move around as well as any agi build and survive like a str build.
Just added you to my list of "People I never need to read a post from ever again".
Well why not ? 2h and poles are like that. I can (and I have) just take my 2h alt, hop in a server, start swinging mindlessly and never bounce, move faster than my 1h char yet with less agility and ath, have a longer reach, more damage, more hp, more armor, a stab attack that never bounces except when used in full retard mode and does a retarded amount of damage, and even take a CT weapon when I'm bored and get a guaranteed 3/1 k/d...
I can do all of that and my experience in 2h is just "I know how to block". Yet it is often more effective to play a class I have a few hundred hours of experience with, rather than the one I've been playing for several thousands.
The shield has become a petty excuse for all the disadvantages that apply to 1h compared to the other melee weapons. Blocking is virtually a non-issue today, most deaths happen because people get ganked or backstabbed.
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So hold stun bonus coincides with the hold damage bonus then, if I'm not mistaken. Correct?
Clearly I don't use my shield enough as I had no idea you could actually got stunned with your shield, outside of crushthrough. I have always thought, for anyone who has manual blocking skills, it's better to fight without your shield when fighting a single opponent. Question is, what advantages does the shield actually provide over blocking with your weapon?
Lower chance to get block stunned and not having to choose block direction. Not really that good considering they cost skillpoints, gold and slows you down.
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Clearly I don't use my shield enough as I had no idea you could actually got stunned with your shield, outside of crushthrough. I have always thought, for anyone who has manual blocking skills, it's better to fight without your shield when fighting a single opponent. Question is, what advantages does the shield actually provide over blocking with your weapon?
Yeah, a lot of non-shield users always talk about how awesome they are, but have no real experience with them.
PROS:
- Good at blocking multiple opponents. (Only if they are all in front of you.)
- Don't have to worry about directional blocking.
- Blocks ranged. (Only from your front arc.)
- Makes you practically invulnerable from the front arc.
- Keeps you from being weapon stunned. (Can still be shield stunned.)
CONS:
- The majority of shields block slower than manual blocks. (If Mori isn't wearing armor, my shield isn't fast enough to block his hilt-slashes. I have to switch to manual.)
- Slows you down. (Just carrying it makes you slower, but blocking makes you INCREDIBLY slow.)
- Breaks. (Any shield will go down with a few hits from an axe.)
- Shield stun. (I used a Knightly Heater for a time, but got annoyed at how frequently I got shield stunned. With my Heavy Round, only a str build using a bar mace stuns me.)
- False sense of security. (Due to the fact that blocking isn't tied to the animation, it's impossible to tell when you're actually blocking. You just have to get a feel for it, especially with the slower shields. Also, your front may block attacks, but your sides are completely open. The only shield with pretty good side coverage is the Huscarl.)
- Telegraphing of attacks. (Due to having a giant piece of wood come up in front of you, it's pretty easy to tell when you're feinting and when you're attacking. It's much harder to follow 1h attacks when not using a shield.)
- Point investment. (You really need to invest 6 shield skill to make it worth it in my opinion. Anything less than that seems to break way too fast. Still, you could take those 6 points and put them in ride, making you much more effective.)
- Cost. (Shields aren't cheap. A top-tier 1-hander and a good shield costs as much as a great sword.)
- Kicking. (Can't block during kicks while using a shield.)
If you go 1-h no shield and can block decently, you can be incredibly effective. It's much harder to block your attacks as they are harder to see. You also move much faster. Weapon stun isn't a big issue if you know what to look out for and if you're fighting a stunner, you just have to block twice and you're good. If I was dueling often, not taking a shield would be the way to go. In battle though, it's such a great utility item to have around.
That being said, shield is fun and it works for me and my build. With my build, your average 2-hander will kill me in 2 hits. So, it's very important for me to not get hit at all.
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A shield can be really helpful because not everyone carries axes around. And if you invested a decent number of points into it you can block for a ridiculously long time, if you can't kill the person you are fighting you can at least hold till friends come. That's the big advantage I see to shields is you see them and don't want to deal with fighting them, in my case.
Also one handers are severely inferior to many other weapons and builds. Just because your attacks only stun once in awhile, you do minimal damage unless you using the pick, and you are out ranged.
I'm starting to think maybe everyone is using one handers wrong. Instead of a fighting class using it as a rogue class. Sneak around with your weapon and take our archers, sneak attack enemies and run, or help allies in trouble. I have to most success when I get the first stab in on my enemy or I am helping an ally. Fighting 1 v 1 against a two hander str just takes far far too long to do unless you get lucky momentum stabs in.
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You shouldn't need to know sweetspots, holds and footwork expertly to land hits with a 1h sword, it really hurts average skill/newer players who want to be a balanced shield class for mobility and survivability. You contrast this with how easy it is for anyone to pickup a 2h and get kills by swinging away and something is a bit off with 1h.
Translation: I should be able to take a 1handed sword, do awesome damage while not being very good at the game at all, put no effort into learning how to better my techniques or footwork while being able to move around as well as any agi build and survive like a str build.
Just added you to my list of "People I never need to read a post from ever again".
I love how you edited out the whole point to intentionally do so that people who didn't read his actual post and only the part you quoted and also already aren't that bright might agree with you...
...now, I know it's tough how your katana isn't extremely OP but please shut the fuck up... Any noob can pick up a my old friendtana or a Danish Greatsword and get a few lucky kills, people with the same amount of skill can pick up a shield and a 1h and be outspammed by a longdagger and 0wpf, end up glancing on pretty much everything, or just be S key'd by 2h S key heroes...
Now, next time you cry about how cav and shielders and generally anything that isn't a ninja agimy old friend is OP please at least don't intentionally fuck with the other persons arguments and posts to make it seem as if they meant something they clearly didn't.
Katanas are gay and so are ninjas.
I can fuck around with shit inside a quote too...
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Maybe because 2h is as effective as 1h in close range and nearly better?
because 2h has more damage?
because 2H has more range?
because 2h has a stab you cans lide in even a close range?
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I love how you edited out the whole point to intentionally do so that people who didn't read his actual post and only the part you quoted and also already aren't that bright might agree with you...
...now, I know it's tough how your katana isn't extremely OP but please shut the fuck up... Any noob can pick up a my old friendtana or a Danish Greatsword and get a few lucky kills, people with the same amount of skill can pick up a shield and a 1h and be outspammed by a longdagger and 0wpf, end up glancing on pretty much everything, or just be S key'd by 2h S key heroes...
Now, next time you cry about how cav and shielders and generally anything that isn't a ninja agimy old friend is OP please at least don't intentionally fuck with the other persons arguments and posts to make it seem as if they meant something they clearly didn't.I can fuck around with shit inside a quote too...
The reason I edited it out was because that was the point where I stopped reading. Do you comment on stuff you don't read? I have however just gone back and read the entirety of the post and I still disagree with most of it.
You're right about the Danish, but the katana isn't as op as everyone seems to think. If it had the same length as the Danish, then yes, it would be brutal, but it doesn't. Those same S key heroes that you hate will fuck with a katana user too - do try to keep in mind that there are many 1h swords that are either the same or longer in length and since it only weighs 1, it gets stunned easily. Just because it's a fast weapon, doesn't mean that backpedaling doesn't make it too short. In fact the funny thing is that when people pick up my katana after killing me, I watch them, because it's fun to watch them fail with it - and they invariably do - I'm beginning to think that my weapons are cursed.
Also, what you call "fucking about with shit inside a quote", I call... quoting. The difference is, he actually said what I quoted, I did not say what you quoted. Although, you're right about that too.
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The reason I edited it out was because that was the point where I stopped reading. Do you comment on stuff you don't read? I have however just gone back and read the entirety of the post and I still disagree with most of it.
No I don't comment on stuff I don't read, however, I read more than the first line of something before deciding commenting... and your katana is not op, it's slightly above average like most none-greatsword 2h swords, you can still S key and use your 65+ range thrust, and you can still mindlessly spam swings without no thought behind it and never glance like all 2h can, 2h shouldn't be more noob friendly and better overall than all other playstyles.
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your katana is not op, it's slightly above average like most none-greatsword 2h swords, you can still S key and use your 65+ range thrust, and you can still mindlessly spam swings without no thought behind it and never glance like all 2h can, 2h shouldn't be more noob friendly and better overall than all other playstyles.
I never said it was UP, however. Aside from the fact that a +3 katana only has 17p on it's stab, which is laughable, it's not a terrible weapon. It's speed is good and it's damage is acceptable (taking into account that it's cut damage). It's length is bad however, so that does make it fairly well balanced. I'm just very aware that it costs near the highest levels for any 2h sword, when there are plenty better than it for their price.
I have to point out that it does glance, it's just a matter of how you swing it. If you do swing mindlessly, you will glance.
I've forgotten where this topic was going? Oh right, yeah... after playing with my 1h alt last night, using a hammer and getting some good results, I can only conclude that 1h swords should get a slight damage buff. The blunt and pierce weapons are fine.
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I never said it was UP, however. Aside from the fact that a +3 katana only has 17p on it's stab, which is laughable, it's not a terrible weapon. It's speed is good and it's damage is acceptable (taking into account that it's cut damage). It's length is bad however, so that does make it fairly well balanced. I'm just very aware that it costs near the highest levels for any 2h sword, when there are plenty better than it for their price.
I have to point out that it does glance, it's just a matter of how you swing it. If you do swing mindlessly, you will glance.
I've forgotten where this topic was going? Oh right, yeah... after playing with my 1h alt last night, using a hammer and getting some good results, I can only conclude that 1h swords should get a slight damage buff. The blunt and pierce weapons are fine.
I've had my warhammer overhead glance because the enemy was to close.... No, they are not fine.
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I've had my warhammer overhead glance because the enemy was to close.... No, they are not fine.
It's really hard to duel two handers or polearms cause they either use the max range of their weapon and S key, which is okay to me because they are using their weapons length to their advantage the whole point of weapon lengths, but they also get right up against you hilt slashing you to oblivion and all of your attacks, stab slash and overhead, glance from being too close but they wont back up or give you space. That needs to be fixed either even it up so both can hilt slash (please god don't do that) or make it so two handers can actually glace. On a side note when I was doing the one handed vs two handed testing the person I was dueling had almost black gauntlets from all the blood. Sword? shiny and clean.
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I dunno why anybody even bought up the fact that some 2hs can be used with a shield. I dont think its even worth mentioning a least bit, cause you are absolutely useless while you use it with a shield. Even blind people can block all those attacks. Exept mace, but the mace is sorta a class of its own. Sure you can spam with it and the knockdown is what makes it a seriuslly scary weapon, but its got extremely short range that even most 1hs top.