cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: kinngrimm on September 12, 2012, 03:13:13 am

Title: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: kinngrimm on September 12, 2012, 03:13:13 am
Some trolls complain about lefthand spam, ok lets go down that road and make an argument and see the pros and cons of the different attacks as 1h|1h/sh do use it a lot even if i ask myself ... there aren't that many attack directions anyways and what kind of person would keep count 0_o ... so here we go


---left attack---
Pro: faster
Contra: short attack, people know that this is arguably the most used attack so they mostly are able to block it anyways as their mind is prepared for it

---right attack---
Pro: slightly more reach
Con: a touch slower

---thrust attack ---
Pro: Piercing Dmg with swords
Con: it glances a lot if not well prepared and/or the opponent has half a brain

---Overehad---
Pro: does nice Dmg if the head turns out to be in the way of the weapon
Con: The Head turns out to be rarely in the way of the weapon, after the turn nerf this attack is especially dangerous to use against 2h/pole spam as if you miss, the spam bot hits you, game over.

(Please feel free to post more Pro|Cons, if suitable i will add them)

Basicly what i am saying is, that 1h|1h/sh only have 2 viable attack directions and on the other hand 2h/pole due to the far reach and the timing advantage implied by that higher reach, still allows them to use Overheads nearly the same way as before and don't even get me started on lolstabs. The shorter the weapon the more problems you got with using Overheads! The shorter the weapon the more problems you have with thrust attacks! Seems fair ... right?

What solutions do we have?
1. Thrust attacks of 1h swords, make it that we actually can attack with those on close range independently if we stand or move forwards/backwards
2. Turn Nerf, adjust it that it takes weapons range into account, Longer Weapons have more problems while turning and hitting, that is surely in RL that way, but atm it is quite the opposite in this game.(Yeah i know i will get a lot of crap for this, bring it on bitches, i am not here to get love but to state my opinions and observations)
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: TurmoilTom on September 12, 2012, 03:24:34 am
inb4rustysayshehasnoproblemswith1hoverheads
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Son Of Odin on September 12, 2012, 03:40:30 am
As I've said before the turnspeed limit would be better if it's adjusted according to the actual reach of the weapon (also including the animation bonus factor) rather than only raw weapon length. My argument is simple because 2h lolstab gives even the shorter weapons so much more reach it would be unbalanced if they would also have more turning speed than for example some slightly longer polearm in comparison which still loses heavily on the actual reach.

Still I find myself struggling against some 1h. Most of them have adjusted their playstyle and are landing really "hard to block"- stabs.

Oh and the 1h right swing really is SIGNIFICANTLY longer than the fast left one. I know this because I've been outreached by it so many times :D.

As a polearm player I had to adjust my melee a bit. I have to aim the overheads really carefully if I want to hit anything. I'm just throwing ball here. The first part is what I came to say here.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: rufio on September 12, 2012, 03:50:20 am
hm 1 handed stabs hardly glance imo, and overheads jsut takes practice to do well, both can be abused as insta hits btw.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Gurnisson on September 12, 2012, 03:59:07 am
Stabs glance less after the patch then before so you don't have to spin it to actually deal damage which makes the 1H stab more reliable than ever. As for the overhead, just practice it more. Don't try and do the same you did pre-patch, it won't work, aim it by using your movement keys instead. It's pretty easy to hit even after the turn change once you've adjusted to it.

To be honest, I think 1H has the best animations. All the attacks are very viable and serves a different purpose. 2H has really good animations too, but their sideswings doesn't serve a major different purpose like the 1H ones. They're basically the same type of attack, just different directions. Polearms have 3 good animations but an awful left swing.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: San on September 12, 2012, 04:02:18 am
You can't really use movement keys to aim overheads with short 1hs. I hold much more often with them to hit reliably, or hope I can drag the overhead into the enemy.

Oddly, I have an easier time landing overheads with shorter 1h. With longer ones, I hit teammates too often.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: kinngrimm on September 12, 2012, 04:16:27 am
@Son of Odin, i didn't meant to imply that the turn nerf wouldn't be a problem at all for also 2h/pole but that through your longer range you have an additional timing advantage, which you have also in other cases but this now in my opinion increases those even more.

@Gurnisson which patch ? Last Strategus Siege(like yesterday) i was in, not one of quite a few of my thrust attacks didn't glance.
And as those are still piercing attacks i would think there isn't a difference to using those to the for myself normal Pick Piercing attacks.
Those thrust attacks glanced whatever movement i did, but i will test this further with my sidesword.

@Rufio insta hits? whats that?

@san it depends on situation. If it is more a dual situation, using Overhead sometimes equals a deathwish when but there are more enemies and also teammates around if you are able to pick and choose then it is a different story. That but then hasn't to do with balancing the attack types but taking care of situational awarness.

EDIT: i am playing regularly for at least 3 months now again, upto 16h a day, so it shouldn't be the lack of training
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: rufio on September 12, 2012, 04:55:05 am
insta stabs when you face hug people, the stab animation often instantly hits, leaving no time for reaction, just need to get the movement right on this one. 1 handers and shorter polearms seem to be able to do this with pierce stabs and W button, 2 handers cant pointblank stab, only lol/turn stab point blank.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Ptolemy on September 12, 2012, 07:09:15 am
I have no problems hitting 1h stabs on my shielder alt.

Overheads could use some work - revert turn nerf, imo.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Paul on September 12, 2012, 09:32:45 am
I find overhead and thrust very usefull. Both can be hard to block or even see if used correctly.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Bobthehero on September 12, 2012, 09:35:39 am
1h thrusting is easy...
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Bjord on September 12, 2012, 09:43:45 am
I pretty much abused the 1h thrust last gen, whenever I connected a hit I would do a quick left-thrust feint and turn into their face or torso. It is very reliable and does a lot of dmg.

kinngrimm, sounds like you're just a bad player(no offence). If you can't hit with overheads and thrusts, then you're pretty much giving testament to your own competence.

Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: kinngrimm on September 12, 2012, 12:55:34 pm
Over the last months i heard from several players these observations, if you say in the latest patch this all changed again, well my bad i didn't notice sofar. Then again it maybe that 4PS has something to do with it, 35 Steel Pick to 31 Sidesword still is a difference and not all of the strat weapons i used had been loomed so perhaps they had between 27 and 30 pierce on the thrust attacks.
If that's the fact then i would prefer a discussion if glances have to go completely for pierce attacks at least, as someone with making a good attack but just some less beef in the punch would be in my opinion overly sanctioned, that goes completely contrary to the play whatever build you like idear in the trailer of crpg. It would be more like, as long you have enough str/PS then you can play whatever you want, which i accept for the choice of your gear but not the playstyle or effectiveness of the gear i already have met the requirements. Either i am allowed to use a weapon, then it should work ffs or i am not allowed to use it which would then be fine too.

OR at least with the thrust it may really be of lack of training as i mostly use steel pick and only on strat come to play with swords nowadays, but aslong i don't have a sword which works as good as a steel pick for me why would i need to. Give me my old sitesword back  :evil: I wonder with all the other changes since then how it would do with the old stats.


Quote from: Bjord on September 12, 2012, 09:43:45 am
I pretty much abused the 1h thrust last gen, whenever I connected a hit I would do a quick left-thrust feint and turn into their face or torso. It is very reliable and does a lot of dmg.
by left-thrust feint, you speak of feinting away from enemy body to the left, to make them believe the attack went into thin air to then actually attack with the thrust or do you speak of left-feint and then thrust attack? I mostly made left-feint or overhead-feint before thrusting , whereby for already stated reasons feinting with overhead to then proceed with another attack works best for me atm. Overhead-feint and placing then an actual overhead works as long i don't have to turn or turn too much, sure footwork plays a big part here, but that with the reduced hitboxes still makes in my mind overhead for shorter weapons at least a challenge.


@Bjord
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Bjord on September 12, 2012, 01:33:22 pm
I didn't say you were a bad player, calm down. I said it sounds like you are. The issues you brought up with thrust and overhead and a few points I disagreed with strongly led me to believe you are struggling with some mechanics that otherwise are easy to get used to, and that I personally have no issues with.

And not to forget, kinngrimm, you have 12 STR. So if you are glancing with swords, don't be surprised.

Regarding your question about feints: Yes, a quick left-feint and then a thrust, three clicks.

Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Leshma on September 12, 2012, 01:59:17 pm
For me, 1h thrust only works if you're really close and personal. At range it glances.

Overhead is risky but it isn't bad once you get used to it.

Right swing has huge range, but is slow and glance up close.

I agree with Gurni that 1h have best animations. They aren't OP like 2h but they seem natural and realistic and that's why I like them.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Miwiw on September 12, 2012, 02:05:59 pm
Quote from: Bjord on September 12, 2012, 01:33:22 pm
And not to forget, kinngrimm, you have 12 STR. So if you are glancing with swords, don't be surprised.

12 STR. That's the joke. 4 PS only deserves you to glance with any sword. It's different with picks of course. But for example when using a LEE, I always noticed a lot of glances even with at least 7 PS.

All 4 attack directions of 1h are fine right now. Never had a problem with those, even after the last patch where something happened (?).

Agreeing with Gurni..
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Piok on September 12, 2012, 02:22:46 pm
1h weaps animations are very difficult to read. Some of 1hs are almost invisible and fast as hell but here is constant whingeing about how poor 1hs are.
And if kinngrimm has only 12str so steelpick is pure OP and explains how is it possible that every steelpicker is at least 1.5x worser foe than any other 1hender  with sword. 
Fast and almost invisible :evil:
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: rustyspoon on September 12, 2012, 02:30:56 pm
1h has a lot of issues that the other weapons don't have and it all has to do with the weapon in relation to the model.

All 1h attacks originate from the right side of the model. It's not a big deal for the left swing, but has a large effect on the other swings.

For the overhead, if you're attacking someone on your left you have to turn more and on the right you have to turn less. So your aim point changes depending on what way you have to turn.

1h doesn't have the ease of basing your aim off the character model like 2h and pole does.

Because of the right swing and stab coming from the right, and the 1h tendency to glance without great footwork you are always at an advantage when on your opponents left side and at a huge disadvantage when on your opponents right side. The left swing is there to kind of make up for this weakness. For 2hers who know what they are doing, it makes it easier to hilt slash when you know there is a strong side and a weak side to 1hers. It makes it easier to force glances. Especially since 2hers have all-around good animations. It also makes it easier to judge kicks. For most of the 1h attacks, you'll be moving from right to left. Makes it easy to judge where you'll be going.

This also makes a big difference when coming up on a doorway. If you are at a doorway and you have an opponent hiding on the left side, it's easy to nail him with a stab or overhead. If he's hiding on the right side, there's not much you can do until you go through the doorway.

As far as animation speed goes, 2h has the best all-around animations. The chamber and swing are both fast. 1h on the other hand has a slow chamber, but a lightning fast swing. This still puts them at a disadvantage in my opinion. Say if you're coming up against a 2her and you both have chambered attacks. Yours will travel faster, but the 2h is longer. Due to that nasty thing called physics, the end of the longer weapon will be traveling faster then the end of the shorter weapon. That's what makes a backpedling 21/21 2her such a bitch to fight against as a shielder.

Even after playing a million gens as a 1her, I still find it more challenging than 2h or pole. It's pretty effortless to get a good kdr with a 2h or pole. I think that's why I like 1h so much. You really have to work for your kills. Some people may counter with, "But you're better at fighting multiple opponents as a 1her." I will counter with, you are usually always fighting multiple opponents as a 1her, since it takes you so much longer to kill someone and 'cause your shield makes you so damn slow.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: kinngrimm on September 12, 2012, 05:37:45 pm
@rustyspoon
very well described

@Miwiw99
If i am able to use that weapon, then it should work. If it is not supposed to work the requirements for using it should be higher. And anyhow, i have an agi build who are you to say that as it is, it isn't as it should be  :wink: ? Again i refer to the nice introduction video of crpg. If you want freedom for playstyles you need less restrictions onto gear! If you make less restrictions onto gear you need to secure that they are working under any circumstances! There are still other ways for balancing then PS and glancing.

@Bjord
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 12, 2012, 05:51:52 pm
(click to show/hide)

But to the point of the actual topic, I've been playing my STF as a 15/24 8ath 8wm 5ps 2riding ('cuss you never know when you feel like riding a sumpter) for a few days now, I've been using a Waki and light armor for most of the time, gotta say I didn't really feel UP against anything but greatswords (but then again everything feels UP against greatswords), 1h right swing is awesome, 1h left swing is sort of an annoying animation for me, but that's only because that even if I jump over a kick and the guy thinks he hit and released his block my leftswing will still fly above his head, the overhead is situational but is quite fine as well, and while the stab is nothing near the OP piece of shit that greatswords got then it's fine compared to the other directions.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Kafein on September 12, 2012, 06:26:50 pm
Quote from: rufio on September 12, 2012, 04:55:05 am
insta stabs when you face hug people, the stab animation often instantly hits, leaving no time for reaction, just need to get the movement right on this one. 1 handers and shorter polearms seem to be able to do this with pierce stabs and W button, 2 handers cant pointblank stab, only lol/turn stab point blank.

Only polearms can do this. If you see a 1h doing something that looks like it, it only means he started the attack way before being at facehug range, and ran towards the target.

I completely agree with kinn and odin, the only two strikes that are actually useful are the left and right one. I never devolve into leftswing spam, but I use the awesome reach of the right swing to surprise people quite often. It is however extremely slow and subject to very bad sweetspots at the start of the animation which makes it risky against fast opponents.

The overhead is only of minor usage since doing that in a duel with a non-crippled opponent is just rolling a dice. It's nice in clusterfucks, but that's it.

Also I can testify that clean swings and stabs with a +3 LEE and 6PS will bounce on 45+ armor. This is utter bullshit when you see katana and shortened spear ninjas absolutely never glancing. 1h sword shielders are forced to pump a lot of str just to avoid glancing on everything, but since they got among the shortest weapons in the game, they need the speed to fight properly (aka not having to block 3 swings in order to make one).
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Gurnisson on September 12, 2012, 06:45:06 pm
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Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Miwiw on September 12, 2012, 06:46:30 pm
Quote from: kinngrimm on September 12, 2012, 05:37:45 pm
@Miwiw99
If i am able to use that weapon, then it should work. If it is not supposed to work the requirements for using it should be higher. And anyhow, i have an agi build who are you to say that as it is, it isn't as it should be  :wink: ? Again i refer to the nice introduction video of crpg. If you want freedom for playstyles you need less restrictions onto gear! If you make less restrictions onto gear you need to secure that they are working under any circumstances! There are still other ways for balancing then PS and glancing.

It works, but it doesn't work a 100%.
A linen Tunic has no requirement and has 7 body armor. A Gambeson has no requirement and has 21 body armor. You can use both without having any STR, but the Gambeson is far better.
A weapon that needs 4 PS (12 STR) deals decent damage. A weapon that needs 6 PS (18 STR) deals more damage as it needs more PS and STR. If you even have more STR and PS it even "works" better and deals more damage (and glances less).
I know you understand that, a weapon works once you can use it but there's always a higher level (of stats) where it works better. You have less PS than the average player, and in comparison to that and enemie's body armor, STR and IF you of course probably have an disadvantage so it is fine that you glance more often than someone with more PS.

Just because you are able to use smth doesnt mean you can master it as you have limited skill with 4 PS. You decided for that build, less STR and power in melee (thats why you took the pick with pierce dmg) but more agility, Weapon master and athletics (and shield skill). The trade was defense for power.

Restricitons are fine right now. They don't promise that any item is of any use just because you can use it.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Moncho on September 12, 2012, 06:57:10 pm
I must say I do not agree with you.
I am with my 15/21 awesome/awful hybrid build and I have been using stabless 1hers for a long time, since I prefer the cleaver/maces/picks.
The right swing is awesome, I'd say even better than the left one, at least with my playstyle. I dont facehug, I stay just out of reach and then quickly get in reach, rightswing to the face, and back out, minimising the damage received by my shield (only 4 shield skill atm). I have often killed people in EU3 just by using this, or at least hit them 3-4 times before getting 1hit by them.
The left swing, nice as well. Fast and headseeker.
Overheads, the only bad thing about them is when you mess it up (i blame most of mine on my 100+ ping though), but its not a problem of the animations. With better ping I would use it much more often, since it contacts almost immediately and rarely glances.
About stabs, I'm really not an expert, haven't used stabby weapons in a few gens, but today I tried specifically the warhammer/italian just to check this. The warhammer stab is just not worth it (low damage, no KD), but nice sometimes, but on the italian its so damn good. What bjord said works often, facehugging works, you just have to position yourself right (should be easy with 9/10 athl).
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Bjord on September 12, 2012, 08:12:42 pm
Jesus kinngrimm, chill the fuck out. So what if someone thinks you're a bad player? They're not automatically trolls, they're just being honest. If you can't handle someone's opinion then ignore him or something.

Now get off my case and do something about your insecurities.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Konrax on September 12, 2012, 09:09:57 pm
Quote from: Kafein on September 12, 2012, 06:26:50 pm
Only polearms can do this. If you see a 1h doing something that looks like it, it only means he started the attack way before being at facehug range, and ran towards the target.

I completely agree with kinn and odin, the only two strikes that are actually useful are the left and right one. I never devolve into leftswing spam, but I use the awesome reach of the right swing to surprise people quite often. It is however extremely slow and subject to very bad sweetspots at the start of the animation which makes it risky against fast opponents.

The overhead is only of minor usage since doing that in a duel with a non-crippled opponent is just rolling a dice. It's nice in clusterfucks, but that's it.

Also I can testify that clean swings and stabs with a +3 LEE and 6PS will bounce on 45+ armor. This is utter bullshit when you see katana and shortened spear ninjas absolutely never glancing. 1h sword shielders are forced to pump a lot of str just to avoid glancing on everything, but since they got among the shortest weapons in the game, they need the speed to fight properly (aka not having to block 3 swings in order to make one).

The stab is a bit rough sometimes with 1h. If you are touching an enemy already with a stab it will 100% bounce. Too late in the swing it will still glance. I don't play 2h or pole all that often so I can't speak to compare them.

I use a MW Espada for stabs
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Kafein on September 12, 2012, 09:22:21 pm
Quote from: Gurnisson on September 12, 2012, 06:45:06 pm
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D:

In your opinion, what is bullshit in my post ?
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: rustyspoon on September 12, 2012, 11:34:12 pm
Quote from: Kafein on September 12, 2012, 09:22:21 pm
D:

In your opinion, what is bullshit in my post ?

I'll take a crack at this one.

I've found with a sword and 4PS you won't glance on medium armors with proper footwork. With 5PS you won't glance on plate with a held attack and good footwork. (That's while using a plain old espada by the way and the cut damage is pretty low on that) With 6PS and a sword, if you glance it's because you made a mistake.

The way stabs work now, you won't glance at close range but you will glance at long range. The only way a 1h stab will glance at close range is if you are so close that you are touching their character model and you're trying to stab them in the chest. If you're that close and you stab in the feet, it won't glance. Because of that, it's pretty easy to get an insta-stab. I get a lot of double-hits doing that too. By doing a left swing while moving right and then instantly stabbing and moving forward. It's too fast for people to react.

The funny thing about overheads, is there's some people who land them all day with no problem and some people who say it's practically impossible to land one. I'm one of the people with no problem.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Falka on September 13, 2012, 12:01:29 am
Quote from: kinngrimm on September 12, 2012, 05:37:45 pm
@Bjord
I didn't say you would have, i stated you implied.As to my knowledge which as it comes to no surprise has its limits ^^, "no offense" is used to make statements which could be missjudged because of more than one possible outcome by interpreting the give statement, a direction where it tells us it is not the possible offensive result, but just an attempt to state the facts. In your case there i see an implied judgment. If you now argue otherwise, with your history, with the history including myself, i just don't believe you here.
And ifisn't a typical start of an implication ,then you aren't real, you are just an illusion of a forum troll who i still see spilling crap in ingame chat about people, not me lately, but still. So Mr. Illusion this is talking about semantics which i am no hero in it and i am all for second and third chances so lets forget about it, but don't try to fool me anymore.

lulz, shitgrimm, you're so funny my friend :lol:
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Cup1d on September 18, 2012, 01:24:32 pm
Quote from: kinngrimm on September 12, 2012, 03:13:13 am
---right attack---
Pro: slightly more reach


+45 now means ''slightly more reach''?
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: OssumPawesome on September 18, 2012, 02:46:26 pm
I don't know what your 1st suggestion is implying, but the second one is dead on.  The turn nerf should take into account weapon weight or length or both - I think the idea was to stop the overhead spam on mauls and long mauls.  Maybe weight would be a better way to do it so you don't need to nerf swiss halbred as much?  I dunno, but I think overhead spam with a little 1her is much different than with a bigass longmaul - and right now they pretty much get the same nerf.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Jarlek on September 18, 2012, 04:54:40 pm
Quote from: Cup1d on September 18, 2012, 01:24:32 pm

+45 now means ''slightly more reach''?
It's not +45 compared to the left swing.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Mlekce on September 22, 2012, 11:51:55 am
Thrust only work if you are positioned correctly,not too faar,not too close or it will glance.
I hate how long spear can stab you from facehug position,or warspear,but 1h weapon can't. I rarely use stab.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Smoothrich on September 22, 2012, 12:20:39 pm
Quote from: Zapper on September 18, 2012, 04:54:40 pm
It's not +45 compared to the left swing.

its +45 reach and 2handed swords only give +25 reach on sideswings.  so a 100 reach 1hand sword is the same effective length as a greatsword besides 2hand stab, except much faster.  extremely powerful
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Moncho on September 22, 2012, 12:40:04 pm
Quote from: Smoothrich on September 22, 2012, 12:20:39 pm
its +45 reach and 2handed swords only give +25 reach on sideswings.  so a 100 reach 1hand sword is the same effective length as a greatsword besides 2hand stab, except much faster.  extremely powerful
It has wonky sweetspots though unlike 2hers or polearms, so hitting at the right time is much harder. Still a great attack though, and with good footwork outreaching almost any weapon is possible
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 22, 2012, 12:54:23 pm
Quote from: Smoothrich on September 22, 2012, 12:20:39 pm
its +45 reach and 2handed swords only give +25 reach on sideswings.  so a 100 reach 1hand sword is the same effective length as a greatsword besides 2hand stab, except much faster slower.  extremely powerful low damage
You ever used a 1h right swing? Slow as shit. You ever used a 1h? Weak as shit.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Jarlek on September 22, 2012, 02:15:03 pm
Quote from: Smoothrich on September 22, 2012, 12:20:39 pm
its +45 reach and 2handed swords only give +25 reach on sideswings.  so a 100 reach 1hand sword is the same effective length as a greatsword besides 2hand stab, except much faster.  extremely powerful
Smoothrich. Please post where you got these numbers from, cause you are reading them wrong.

Yes, the 1h swords get +45 reach on their right swing, but that's relative to the polearm stab animation. The left swing has something like +25 IIRC.

These are the numbers from that test that was done by a cRPG player. Didn't manage to find his post.

Here's the native animation reach bonuses. These generally can't be used since cRPG has modified some animations, but the 1 swings should be the same. (Note. The animation bonuses below are relative to the 1h left swing. The other on is relative to the polearm stab (shortest animation).
(click to show/hide)

Anyway, a 1h and a 2h with the same length will have the 2h being the longest with all animations apart from the right swing. The longest of them all are the 2 stab (longest animation bonus in the game). The 2h left swing is just 2 below the 1h right swing when it comes to length. So no. 100 reach 1hs do NOT have the same reach as greatswords, all of which are 117+ length, so there's no way a 2h should ever be outranged by a 1h.

QED.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Paul on September 22, 2012, 07:57:18 pm
Smooth gets his numbers from Kesh.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: San on September 22, 2012, 08:30:20 pm
Quote from: Smoothrich on September 22, 2012, 12:20:39 pm
its +45 reach and 2handed swords only give +25 reach on sideswings.  so a 100 reach 1hand sword is the same effective length as a greatsword besides 2hand stab, except much faster.  extremely powerful

Can you please give me this right swing you are talking about?
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Smoothrich on September 22, 2012, 08:39:13 pm
Guess I misremembered, but there's like 4 different spreadsheets out there for bonus reach on animations that I can find offhand, and most of them give about 10 extra reach on 1hand rightswing over 2hand sideswings.  Still brings 1hand swords to within 10 or so reach of greatswords, and that right swing has some crazy range on it, no one can deny that.

I looked all this stuff up a month or two ago and could've sworn I saw an "updated" chart of bonus reach that put 1hand right swing at 40, leftswing at 10, stab at 65, with 2hand sideswings at 20 and stab at 80 but I probably got some numbers crossed.

Regardless you can backpedal a greatsword user doing a sideswing then step in with a right swing and hit them from very far away, very common playstyle with 1hand duelists.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Moncho on September 22, 2012, 10:10:37 pm
Quote from: Smoothrich on September 22, 2012, 08:39:13 pm
Regardless you can backpedal a greatsword user doing a sideswing then step in with a right swing and hit them from very far away, very common playstyle with 1hand duelists.

Yes, it is called footwork, same as a 2h user can swing and walk back (hmmm where have I seen backpedalling 2h/pole users, cant remember them (this is slightly sarcastic, the slightly being sarcastic as well)), rendering this mostly useless, or use an instastab that due to the speed bonus (hes moving to you)  will do great damage, or he can do many other things (hitslash, chamber, block, ...)....
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Jarlek on September 22, 2012, 10:35:51 pm
Quote from: Smoothrich on September 22, 2012, 08:39:13 pm
Guess I misremembered, but there's like 4 different spreadsheets out there for bonus reach on animations that I can find offhand, and most of them give about 10 extra reach on 1hand rightswing over 2hand sideswings.  Still brings 1hand swords to within 10 or so reach of greatswords, and that right swing has some crazy range on it, no one can deny that.

I looked all this stuff up a month or two ago and could've sworn I saw an "updated" chart of bonus reach that put 1hand right swing at 40, leftswing at 10, stab at 65, with 2hand sideswings at 20 and stab at 80 but I probably got some numbers crossed.
My guess is that you are mixing values from two different tests that had different animation as "0". Probably the one I posted (where 0 is the reach gained by the 1h left swing) and the one I mentioned (where 0 is the reach gained from the polearm stab).


Quote from: Smoothrich on September 22, 2012, 08:39:13 pm
Regardless you can backpedal a greatsword user doing a sideswing then step in with a right swing and hit them from very far away, very common playstyle with 1hand duelists.
I know. I use it myself a lot. That doesn't mean you have the longer reach, though. It means you use footwork and a higher speed rating to get a hit in first. (badly worded, sorry).
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Kafein on September 22, 2012, 10:49:58 pm
Quote from: Smoothrich on September 22, 2012, 08:39:13 pm
Guess I misremembered, but there's like 4 different spreadsheets out there for bonus reach on animations that I can find offhand, and most of them give about 10 extra reach on 1hand rightswing over 2hand sideswings.  Still brings 1hand swords to within 10 or so reach of greatswords, and that right swing has some crazy range on it, no one can deny that.

Lol that only works with 2h and poles retarded enough to move forward 24/7. Any 2h with subpar footwork can force 1h to block at least twice before being in the 1h's reach. After that there's the hiltslash.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Teeth on September 22, 2012, 10:56:47 pm
Quote from: Zapper on September 22, 2012, 02:15:03 pm
(click to show/hide)
I'm sure these numbers are bullshit. No way the 1h stab has 42 more reach than the rightswing. If anything the right swing is longer. Oh and also polearm overhead is its longest attack, not its shortest.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 22, 2012, 11:09:17 pm
Quote from: SgtTeeh on September 22, 2012, 10:56:47 pm
I'm sure these numbers are bullshit. No way the 1h stab has 42 more reach than the rightswing. If anything the right swing is longer. Oh and also polearm overhead is its longest attack, not its shortest.
Actually, pretty damn sure the 1h stab is longer, issue is just that since the glancing is totally retarded with it when you hit with it at the stage of the anim where it is longer it'll just glance, however, it's barely longer.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Jarlek on September 22, 2012, 11:13:27 pm
Quote from: SgtTeeh on September 22, 2012, 10:56:47 pm
I'm sure these numbers are bullshit. No way the 1h stab has 42 more reach than the rightswing. If anything the right swing is longer. Oh and also polearm overhead is its longest attack, not its shortest.
As I wrote, those numbers are the native ones. cRPG has changed some of them, stabs mainly IIRC. We were talking about 1h and 2h swings though, and I'm very certain that they have remained unchanged (animation wise).

Also note that this is the max range. The 1 stab has always had decent range on the stab, it just glanced at quite a big section of the far end of the weapon. Same with the polearms (at least for me). If I stab at max range, it usually glances, but not if I stab at almost the middle of it's max length. This is before the latest change to stabs and glances, btw.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Teeth on September 22, 2012, 11:34:02 pm
All the animations I mentioned should still be the same as Native.

If you use outfit view and look at the stab and the rightswing of a 1h, you'll be pretty sure that there is no 42 range difference. Sure the actual reach of the stab is a bit longer than the effective, damage dealing, reach, but that 42 reach difference is just not there, not even close. I bet that if you would try hitting a person, even if it glances, the rightswing would hit before the stab would. One utterly wrong value renders the entire data rather useless.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: San on September 22, 2012, 11:43:24 pm
Those are very old values that were treated as fact for quite a long time (I am 100% sure 1h overhead is longer than left swing). I had trouble believing it long ago. These are more believable, even though this probably isn't perfect, either.
http://forum.meleegaming.com/guides/weapon-reaches-explained-%28video%29/

Polearms :
+0   Stab
+15 Overhead
+23 Right
+15 Left
+30 If you stab while mounted or holding a shield

2 handed :
+65 Stab
+45 Overhead
+30 Right
+30 Left

1 handed :
+40 Stab
+30 Overhead
+40 Right
+15 Left


So +10 on the right swing over 2h swings. With smart stepping in, a long 1h can hit somewhat reliably, although that depends on opponent athletics (and skill), too. It also explains how some people like cyranule can perform some maneuvers like backpedal overheads and still maintain quite good reach.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: In Cauda Venenum on September 23, 2012, 12:01:32 am
I feel like 1h is one of the cases where, right now, it's in a good place BUT it has it's flaws about it that probably should be fixed (the wonky animations) but if you made the animations competent, it would spiral out of control and there would be no reason NOT to go 1h .  Sometimes I don't entirely feel this way since I always looked at the animations as 'my swings meaning something and being used for different purposes' which I liked at first but later on I just got sick of it and wished I could throw in another attack every once in a while other than an overhead.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Kafein on September 23, 2012, 12:15:56 am
The 1h overhead has a good range, but only has niche uses since the turn rate nerf (kick and knockdown follow-up attacks). The length of 1h weapons makes it very easy for enemies to move sideways and make you miss. It is also the 1h swing that has the longest, incompressible delay before connecting becomes possible. Which also happens to make it the only 1h attack that will reliably not glance, at least when you hit people at the same height as you are. It is also quite bad in a clusterfuck since the hitbox is waaay on the right.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Rebelyell on September 23, 2012, 12:21:53 am
nvm
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: BlackMilk on September 23, 2012, 01:11:22 am
Quote from: Rebelyell on September 23, 2012, 12:21:53 am
who cares about 2h right swing when you have left swing...
left swing is really long
reach on left swing = reach on right swing.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 23, 2012, 08:11:44 am
Everytime I see someone say backpedal spam a 2hander with a 1hander I just want to shoot myself in the face... Any two hander with half a brain won't fall for that. Most spammer newbies won't fall for that...
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Tydeus on September 23, 2012, 12:11:54 pm
Edited: nevermind.

Quote from: Tears of Destiny on September 23, 2012, 08:11:44 am
Everytime I see someone say backpedal spam a 2hander with a 1hander I just want to shoot myself in the face... Any two hander with half a brain won't fall for that. Most spammer newbies won't fall for that...
Also, what? I do this on Farfalle against 2hers and polearmers that backpedal and kick. If you force them to have to use their w key, it makes closing the gap much easier. It also makes you harder to be kicked, not having to mash w for as long.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Rebelyell on September 23, 2012, 03:50:15 pm
Quote from: BlackMilk on September 23, 2012, 01:11:22 am
reach on left swing = reach on right swing.
nvm
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: BlackMilk on September 23, 2012, 04:10:12 pm
Quote from: Rebelyell on September 23, 2012, 03:50:15 pm
I lost all my respect to you if you are 2h.
Left swing is longer, much more longer.

Yeah?
so this guy : http://forum.meleegaming.com/guides/weapon-reaches-explained-%28video%29/ is completly wrong?
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Rebelyell on September 23, 2012, 04:56:55 pm
nvm
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: BlackMilk on September 23, 2012, 05:23:31 pm
Quote from: Rebelyell on September 23, 2012, 04:56:55 pm
after 20 gen as 2h boy I can find out my self what attack is longer. I actually can make guide my self

Right attack is really fast but not that long some 1h can outreach longsword really easy and with good footwork also DGS.
but left swing is long like hell, you still cant outreach longest pole-arms but almost every 1h.
I cant give you how much is that longer but its pretty massive difference.
I remember then overhead have awesome reach but thats is really risky to try that witch greatswords due
high miss chance.


buy some 2h weapon take friend and go on eu3 to make some tests.
why would I when Arkonor did it already?

also Jarlek stop - ing every single of my posts ffs
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Siiem on September 23, 2012, 05:28:45 pm
Rebelyell is my new hero :D makes me laugh with every post. I love thee.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Rebelyell on September 23, 2012, 06:12:00 pm
I checked that again fave sec ago and ... hmmm i am confessed  :|
due my stupidity I edited last posts, but still in fight that swing seems to be just longer,
I will check that when my ping will back to be normal.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: San on September 24, 2012, 08:56:57 am
Quote from: Tydeus on September 23, 2012, 12:11:54 pm
What? Was he trying to hit the same spot while mounted, but not compensating for his height difference? The two emboldened ones should be exactly the same. Not sure these numbers are credible anymore, even if they do seem correct.

From what I recall, he explained that the ranged bonus mounted with polearms is the same as the ranged bonus from being a hoplite. When you bold 1h, you mean that 1h should also be +30? Not sure how he did mounted tests since they're not in the video, but can't you just use your own estimates for the effective range given the angle at which you need to lance and the distance/degrees of freedom you are allowed to move the horse's head?

Even so, it's not like you can really get a clean hit if you hit at the maximum range of the 1h stab. I don't think these numbers are perfect, but I think they are close within only a few points difference from my own experience. I've used right swings reliably against stabs with assumptions from this data and it seemed correct.
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Arn_Magnusson on September 26, 2012, 04:30:15 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


But it have +7 so, might be serious stuff ;_;
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: BlameMeForTheNoise on November 12, 2012, 06:20:33 pm
Quote from: kinngrimm on September 12, 2012, 03:13:13 am
2. Turn Nerf, adjust it that it takes weapons range into account, Longer Weapons have more problems while turning and hitting, that is surely in RL that way, but atm it is quite the opposite in this game.(Yeah i know i will get a lot of crap for this, bring it on bitches, i am not here to get love but to state my opinions and observations)

I think this should be considered. (2hander btw...)
Title: Re: Why does 1h have only 2 attack directions?
Post by: Berserkadin on November 12, 2012, 06:22:25 pm
Giving longer weapons slower turnspeeds makes perfect sense, and would be nice for balance, since reach = king in battle.