cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: darmaster on September 10, 2012, 12:11:48 pm
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i think it should be nerfed: i don't really like being knocked down by a xbower, that has more or less 5 ps and a hybrid build. it should be "activated" only with at least 6 ps or 140wpf or something like that.
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pfff. dont kill diversity. thats the great plus of those weapons. Why would anyone use a mace if he cannot even knockdown and only do it with 140 (!) WPF and 6 PS. Even some dedicated melee builds dont have that many wpf if they go for a STR build.
You must think your suggestion more through. Thats not the way to balance it.
The good thing about knockdown is that it is nearly random, more STR improves it (true?) but you can never tell when you get knocked down, thats a good thing!
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Nooo! Dont that knockdown from me!!
Some people do need certain adavantages.
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pfff. dont kill diversity. thats the great plus of those weapons. Why would anyone use a mace if he cannot even knockdown and only do it with 140 (!) WPF and 6 PS. Even some dedicated melee builds dont have that many wpf if they go for a STR build.
You must think your suggestion more through. Thats not the way to balance it.
The good thing about knockdown is that it is nearly random, more STR improves it (true?) but you can never tell when you get knocked down, thats a good thing!
people would use it because it does blunt damage, so it's more effective. secondly 140 wpf was indicative, let's say 130 wpf (but i would prefer the 6 ps thing)
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No. Knockdown is awesome and is based on damage afaik. The more damage you do, the more likely you are to knock someone down.
Before asking for a nerf for knockdown, do you know how it works first? I'm curious myself since even if I am correct, I have no idea what the percentages for knockdown are given 10 points of damage after armor soak or w/e vs 50 points of damage.
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No. Knockdown is awesome and is based on damage afaik. The more damage you do, the more likely you are to knock someone down.
Before asking for a nerf for knockdown, do you know how it works first? I'm curious myself since even if I am correct, I have no idea what the percentages for knockdown are given 10 points of damage after armor soak or w/e vs 50 points of damage.
if so, there's still something wrong: how comes that an hybrid class with 5 or less ps and less than 120 wpf can knockdown someone who has 57 body armor? i still don't like it
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if so, there's still something wrong: how comes that an hybrid class with 5 or less ps and less than 120 wpf can knockdown someone who has 57 body armor? i still don't like it
I don't see an issue with that. It happens. I've seen people get knocked down by a cudgel wielded by a peasant. I love that.
I will agree on the point that there should be a difference between someone with, say, 3 PS vs 8 PS when wielding a knockdown weapon. And I believe there is since knockdown, afaik, is based on damage done as well as weapon weight. I don't know the formula and how it all comes together but removing the chance of knockdown completely just because someone doesn't meet some minimum strength or PS level? No.
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people would use it because it does blunt damage, so it's more effective. secondly 140 wpf was indicative, let's say 130 wpf (but i would prefer the 6 ps thing)
Most pierce weapons are better than blunt weapons because of knockdown. No one would use blunt weapons (apart from great maul) if you removed knockdown or limited like you suggested.
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Does it works only for head hits ?
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I don't see an issue with that. It happens. I've seen people get knocked down by a cudgel wielded by a peasant. I love that.
I will agree on the point that there should be a difference between someone with, say, 3 PS vs 8 PS when wielding a knockdown weapon. And I believe there is since knockdown, afaik, is based on damage done as well as weapon weight. I don't know the formula and how it all comes together but removing the chance of knockdown completely just because someone doesn't meet some minimum strength or PS level? No.
i don't like seeing people knocked down by cudgel, i don't really like that. secondly i didn't say to remove the chance of knockdown completely blabla, i just said to remove knockdown for people who has less than 6 ps and less than 130 wpf.
Most pierce weapons are better than blunt weapons because of knockdown. No one would use blunt weapons (apart from great maul) if you removed knockdown or limited like you suggested.
mace (the two handed weapon) would still be the best weapon for xbower with only 1 slot available and some wpf in two handed weap.
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Don't nerf it! I love watching plate armored full strength monsters occasionally getting knocked down by an archer with a 1h toy hammer. :D
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mace (the two handed weapon) would still be the best weapon for xbower with only 1 slot available and some wpf in two handed weap.
I would use military sickle in 2h mode instead
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I get it, nerf archers! Nerf what little hability we have to melee, so we kite more!
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Sorry Darmaster but honestly,
you seem like being totally brainfucked.
130 wpf?
Nerf hybrids even more, gg Greatsword- my old friends :D
Apart from the FACT (you dont present any facts here)
that the knockdown chance with 5 ps and maybe 80-100 wpf
is very low (guess it was around 10%with a Mace, 28 blunt, but dun remember right)
there is the fact that only Blunt/Pierce weps are viable for ranged builds with low wpf
on the melee wep.
I just read through some of your suggestions and honestly asked myself
who can fuck a brain so deeply.
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knockdown = random
random in a pvpgame = bad
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Maybe it's just me, but I tend to find I get knocked down more frequently than I believe is "fair", yes I guess this is a QQ but at the same time it does suck that during a fight if you make one mistake you will get knocked down and end up taking 2-3 hits.
Or my new personal favorite move :
Hit(knocked down), hit on the ground, kicked whilst standing, hit(knocked down again), hit and killed on the ground.
I have been getting somewhat annoyed by knockdown lately and I believe the reason is simply that taking one hit and being knocked down is often an instant win for your opponent.
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i think it should be nerfed: i don't really like
Opinions don't change anything. The opinions of one person specifically, don't really matter. Put up a poll in game balance discussion, not here.
Also, on the topic, the name of this game is skill. A naked peasant with a pitchfork could kill an armored knight (granted he doesn't glance every hit) if the skill gap was large enough. If your opponent chooses to use a short and usually slow weapon just for the knockdown, he should be allowed to. Casually approaching a ranged xbower does not guarantee an instant victory for you, else THAT would be unbalanced. Unless of course that xbower could instantly kill you from a distance as easily as you do in melee range.
Tl,dr; Your opinion means nothing, the game is meant to be hard. See it as a challenge to be overcome, not an obstacle blocking your path.
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Maybe it's just me, but I tend to find I get knocked down more frequently than I believe is "fair", yes I guess this is a QQ but at the same time it does suck that during a fight if you make one mistake you will get knocked down and end up taking 2-3 hits.
Or my new personal favorite move :
Hit(knocked down), hit on the ground, kicked whilst standing, hit(knocked down again), hit and killed on the ground.
I have been getting somewhat annoyed by knockdown lately and I believe the reason is simply that taking one hit and being knocked down is often an instant win for your opponent.
this
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knockdown = random
random in a pvpgame = bad
No, it's not. That's the good thing. There is a lot of difference in dmg amounts, really often. You can glance and do low to zero dmg, you can do a great hit and take half of enemie's hp. That "randomness" as much as the "randomness" with knockdowns is needed.
If you knew by 100% chance that a certain thing is gonna happen in the next move, e.g. the guy in front of you do not knockdown you can react to the situation and don't block the swing if you don't must (and know you will not die). But if you know nothing about it, its far better as you have to THINK.
Do I block it or do I risk a counterattack which can fail, and if I fail, will I be knocked down or not? Is it better to step to the side and risk a stab or should I take a step backwards, wait for help or just ignore my enemy and run? Should I take out my 0 skill shield and block two arrows and be slow or should I try to dodge and reach the archer earlier to kill him?
Should I couch that guy from behind or just bump, turn and stab? What is easier, will he shoot me right in my face if I couch my lance? Is that too risky for me? Do I better with just a bump and let friendly archers kill him?
Do I risk my life for that?
What is better about a game where you exactly know what is going to happen everytime? No crushthrough, no knockdown, no bumps, no couch lance, no "insta stabs", nothing different? How boring would that be?
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Pro tip, there's a suggestion section of the forums.
http://forum.meleegaming.com/suggestions-corner/
But since you're just whining, may I suggest that next time you use the Spam section of the forums?
http://forum.meleegaming.com/spam/
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
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Sorry Darmaster but honestly,
you seem like being totally brainfucked.
130 wpf?
Nerf hybrids even more, gg Greatsword- my old friends :D
Apart from the FACT (you dont present any facts here)
that the knockdown chance with 5 ps and maybe 80-100 wpf
is very low (guess it was around 10%with a Mace, 28 blunt, but dun remember right)
there is the fact that only Blunt/Pierce weps are viable for ranged builds with low wpf
on the melee wep.
I just read through some of your suggestions and honestly asked myself
who can fuck a brain so deeply.
scuse nerf hybrid what? i just said that it would be more fair if a paesant without ps could not knockdown a fullplate guy: it doesn't seem pretty braindamaged imo. and i didn't post this only for one guy, but i did because it looks pretty usual gettin knocked down by a xbower that should use the mace only for defending himself and not for killing people in melee.
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Archers typically DID use blunt and pierce weapons against heavily armored people, because their cut weapons wouldn't touch em. A hammer can smash in a breast plate or smash in a helmet (if hit in the right location). I think knockdown is fine, it's just a part of the game, something you need to take into account.
Most blunt/knockdown weapons are weaker than their pierce counter-parts because they have the chance to knockdown. I think that's just fine the way it is. And someone with very low PS or WPF is not going to be knocking people down very often, because it's a calculation that happens for knockdown to occur, and one of the big factors is how much damage your hit did.
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scuse nerf hybrid what? i just said that it would be more fair if a paesant without ps could not knockdown a fullplate guy: it doesn't seem pretty braindamaged imo. and i didn't post this only for one guy, but i did because it looks pretty usual gettin knocked down by a xbower that should use the mace only for defending himself and not for killing people in melee.
Guardian rather meant the WPF thingie. A hybrid often doesnt get 130 wpf in either weapon mastery, only sometimes with lots of WM. Same actually with PS as well, if the hybrid is going for more Agi and sticks with 15 STR what I would do as dedicated crossbowman as well. 15/24 is a perfect build for that on level 30, which means 5 PS but 8 WM for enough WPF for Arbalest.
Why is the xbower not supposed to kill people? I thought most people want ranged guys to be good in melee as well, so they do not see any advantage in kiting. Do you like kiting? It looks like that, because if you have no chance to kill someone in melee, why even consider melee fighting? Running is the better choice then.
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scuse nerf hybrid what? i just said that it would be more fair if a paesant without ps could not knockdown a fullplate guy: it doesn't seem pretty braindamaged imo. and i didn't post this only for one guy, but i did because it looks pretty usual gettin knocked down by a xbower that should use the mace only for defending himself and not for killing people in melee.
So how shall he defend himself without killing them? Endless blocking?
Besides that a real peasant will knockdown a plate dude maybe 1% of his hits and would not do much dmg.
The most damaged brain award 2012 is yours, congratz.
Now move your thread to suggestions corner or spam and stop attention whoring with whiny shit.
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Apart from the FACT (you dont present any facts here)
that the knockdown chance with 5 ps and maybe 80-100 wpf
is very low (guess it was around 10%with a Mace, 28 blunt, but dun remember right)
wow...great way of presenting facts...you really dun seem to remember right, because the knockdown chance is ALOT higher. I got 40 wpf and 5 ps with a non loomed mace and it's been like that for some time now and the knockdown chance is atleast 15-20% which in my opinion is quite ridicolous. I can knock down anyone and it's even worse when I hold my swings.
Also it's so typical for you to come up with a completly made out of the blue and irrelevant argument and then start to insult people. how mature.
Why is the xbower not supposed to kill people? I thought most people want ranged guys to be good in melee as well, so they do not see any advantage in kiting. Do you like kiting? It looks like that, because if you have no chance to kill someone in melee, why even consider melee fighting? Running is the better choice then.
Simple : in my opinion xbowers (and I'm one of them) are too good in melee. the difference between 50 and 120 wpf is not that enourmos especially not with a fast weapon like the mace and it's allways tough to fight against a 8 athletics + light armor using guy with a blunt weapon that knocks you down all the time.
So how shall he defend himself without killing them? Endless blocking?
Besides that a real peasant will knockdown a plate dude maybe 1% of his hits and would not do much dmg.
The most damaged brain award 2012 is yours, congratz.
Now move your thread to suggestions corner or spam and stop attention whoring with whiny shit.
You can't be fucking serious. A guy who's using a 50 gold hammer is not supposed to kill a plate user in melee, especially not with low ps and if he does so he's probably a really good player and the plate user is really bad. but balance wise the plate user should end up winning mostly/all the time. and OF COURSE you again come up with a completly irrelevant argument and start the insults. jarlek style.
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Blackmilk, just give up he has facts!
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Archers typically DID use blunt and pierce weapons against heavily armored people, because their cut weapons wouldn't touch em. A hammer can smash in a breast plate or smash in a helmet (if hit in the right location). I think knockdown is fine, it's just a part of the game, something you need to take into account.
Most blunt/knockdown weapons are weaker than their pierce counter-parts because they have the chance to knockdown. I think that's just fine the way it is. And someone with very low PS or WPF is not going to be knocking people down very often, because it's a calculation that happens for knockdown to occur, and one of the big factors is how much damage your hit did.
i like your way of argue, very civil. anyway, these problems should care only the pure melee people; i mean if you are an archer you just use these weapons only to defend yourself. same for a xbowman if you use arbalest or heavy xbow, you don't charge in melee fight cause you shoot from the distance, you're first of all a ranged.
and please guys don't emphasize what i said, that's a sneaky mean to win an argumentation: i didn't say remove the knockdown, remove the chance to win, nerf hybrids or whatever: i just said that it's pretty annoying having almost 60 bodyarmor and being knocked down (and almost killed) by an improvised melee fighter. and i also think that these guys even without knockdown could take care of themselves if they're enough good, just they don't have such an unfair (imo) advantage.
and sF_Guardian, nice way of arguing: you just look like an exited kid.
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wow...great way of presenting facts...you really dun seem to remember right, because the knockdown chance is ALOT higher. I got 40 wpf and 5 ps with a non loomed mace and it's been like that for some time now and the knockdown chance is atleast 15-20% which in my opinion is quite ridicolous. I can knock down anyone and it's even worse when I hold my swings.
Also it's so typical for you to come up with a completly made out of the blue and irrelevant argument and then start to insult people. how mature.
Simple : in my opinion xbowers (and I'm one of them) are too good in melee. the difference between 50 and 120 wpf is not that enourmos especially not with a fast weapon like the mace and it's allways tough to fight against a 8 athletics + light armor using guy with a blunt weapon that knocks you down all the time.
You can't be fucking serious. A guy who's using a 50 gold hammer is not supposed to kill a plate user in melee, especially not with low ps and if he does so he's probably a really good player and the plate user is really bad. but balance wise the plate user should end up winning mostly/all the time. and OF COURSE you again come up with a completly irrelevant argument and start the insults. jarlek style.
1st:
Weapon modifiers
- Crushthrough has a chance of ignoring block on overhead strikes. This depends on strength and weapon weight. There is also a random element.
- Knockdown has a chance to knock down enemy on swings. This depends on weapon mass, but does contain a significant random element.
Quote
The mechanic for knockdown is (rand(0.0, 1.0) < min(item_weight * 0.33, 2.0) * min((raw_damage - 20.0) * 0.5, 10.0) * 0.015) according to Paul (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,20938.msg299772.html#msg299772). How this kind of equation works is that the higher the right side value is, the higher the chance of success is. Percentual chance of success is the right side of equation.
This means two things affect knockdown chance. Weight of the item and raw damage of the swing. If we assume a hit does at least 40 raw damage, which is very likely for a decent hit from almost any weapon with knockdown with 5 PS or so, the knockdown chance boils down to min(item_weight * 0.33, 2.0) * 0.15. This means that the maximum weight for this calculation is 6. This results in the knockdown chance being 0.0495 * item_weight, meaing 4.95% chance of knockdown per item weight (this could be rounded to 5% like Paul did, but 0.33 isnt 1/3 for exact chance). This allows tabling some weights:
Weight 1.5 (Hammer, Club): 7.425%
Weight 2.5 (Flanged Mace, Iron Mace, Goedendag): 12.375%
Weight 3 (Warhammer, Long Hafterd Spiked Mace): 14.85%
Weight 4.5 (Long Iron Mace, Bar Mace: 22.275%
Weight 6 and above (every crushthrough weapon): 29.7%
The effect of damage is a multiplier to this chance, min((raw_damage - 20.0) * 0.5, 10.0). At 40 or more raw damage the multiplier is it's maximum (10), resulting in our assumed values above. Attacks below 20 raw damage cause the multiplier to be 0, meaning 0% chance of knockdown. Between 20 and 40 raw damage each point of raw damage increases the multiplier by 0.05. This means that the knockdown chance calculated above goes down by 5% per point of raw damage below 40 (for example 38 damage attack with a warhammer means 14.85% * 0.9 = 13.365% chance of knockdown). As said above though, in most practical cases most of these weapons will deal at least 40 raw damage with a decent hit, so that part of the equation is fairly meaningless.
And 2nd:
I`m not talkin about hammers but about Maces and Warhammers which are intended to KILL plate users.
If thats your way to present facts you ain`t better than the stereotype you seem to think I am.
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Actually I completely disagree, buff hybrids. More diversity, I frequently find myself respeccing out of boredom whiskey. I don't care if that means more ranged because at this point the game is already crawling with them. I wouldn't mind some more swords that are viable for hybrids but this takes effort and work. So, fu I'm out from now ON!
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Guardian rather meant the WPF thingie. A hybrid often doesnt get 130 wpf in either weapon mastery, only sometimes with lots of WM. Same actually with PS as well, if the hybrid is going for more Agi and sticks with 15 STR what I would do as dedicated crossbowman as well. 15/24 is a perfect build for that on level 30, which means 5 PS but 8 WM for enough WPF for Arbalest.
Why is the xbower not supposed to kill people? I thought most people want ranged guys to be good in melee as well, so they do not see any advantage in kiting. Do you like kiting? It looks like that, because if you have no chance to kill someone in melee, why even consider melee fighting? Running is the better choice then.
Thank you for pointin it out Miwiw, actually isn`t hard to understand but still thanks :D
This guy complains about kiting on one hand but does complain about OP knockdown from
peasants (Op or not, dunnno, he just says he doesn`t like it).
Pretty twisted since blunt and pierce weps are actually one of
the very few choices for a low ps ranged dude who
has just 1 free slot.
Liting the weapons of choice to only one type since
blunt weps would be worse in all means than pierce ones for
a normal 5 ps arbalester or 3-5 ps archer would be
a shot in your own face since kiting would
be an even more used tatic after all.
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guardian you still don't mean that ranged aren't supposed to kill people in melee. they can and that's fair to me, but they still have to be disadvantaged in melee combat: for xbower these disadvantages don't exist because surely they have to protect themselves when reloading, in fact differently from the archer, they have a rate of fire strongly lower, and that's ok too, but still some disadvantages have to be, because they're not pure 2handers or 1handers: that's why i think AT LEAST the knockdown shouldn't be allowed for people who doesn't have a pure melee build (so 6 ps or 130 wpf but that's just a fast suggestion, you can easily find other fair solutions)
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guardian you still don't mean that ranged aren't supposed to kill people in melee. they can and that's fair to me, but they still have to be disadvantaged in melee combat: for xbower these disadvantages don't exist because surely they have to protect themselves when reloading, in fact differently from the archer, they have a rate of fire strongly lowest, and that's ok too, but still some disadvantages have to be, because they're not pure 2handers or 1handers: that's why i think AT LEAST the knockdown shouldn't be allowed for people who doesn't have a pure melee build (so 6 ps or 130 wpf but that's just a fast suggestion, you can easily find other fair solutions)
They have less wpf (which matters quite alot with low ps), cant take a shield (except of 0-slot axe bs or 0 slot buckler), cant take a 2 or 3 slot weapon (as full x-bower, arbalester).
No, they have no disadvantages...
And to your first point, yes, I still mean ranged are supposed to be able to kill in melee :D
There are pure melee build with less than 130wpf and less than 5ps btw and I dont
think one needs to give pure melee builds even more anvantages in melee.
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The beauty of knockdown is that it is random, and that anyone can (with the right combination of modifiers) lay out a 33/6 full-plate-beast flat on their back. Knockdown's current method of implementation makes it one of the "great equalizers" in cRPG right now. Because knockdown is dependent on "real" damage dealt to your opponent (as opposed to "raw" damage output) WPF, PS, speed modifiers, and enemy armor already play a major role in determining knockdown frequency. The system proposed in the original post is only a redundant and incomplete substitute for the current system which produces infrequent, but still effective, knockdown frequency.
If you're pissed about a mace or hammer knocking you on your ass in your 57 body armor, try not walking into the swing next time.
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No, it's not. That's the good thing. There is a lot of difference in dmg amounts, really often. You can glance and do low to zero dmg, you can do a great hit and take half of enemie's hp. That "randomness" as much as the "randomness" with knockdowns is needed.
If you knew by 100% chance that a certain thing is gonna happen in the next move, e.g. the guy in front of you do not knockdown you can react to the situation and don't block the swing if you don't must (and know you will not die). But if you know nothing about it, its far better as you have to THINK.
Do I block it or do I risk a counterattack which can fail, and if I fail, will I be knocked down or not? Is it better to step to the side and risk a stab or should I take a step backwards, wait for help or just ignore my enemy and run? Should I take out my 0 skill shield and block two arrows and be slow or should I try to dodge and reach the archer earlier to kill him?
Should I couch that guy from behind or just bump, turn and stab? What is easier, will he shoot me right in my face if I couch my lance? Is that too risky for me? Do I better with just a bump and let friendly archers kill him?
Do I risk my life for that?
What is better about a game where you exactly know what is going to happen everytime? No crushthrough, no knockdown, no bumps, no couch lance, no "insta stabs", nothing different? How boring would that be?
Nothing about this post makes any sense. You are compairing totally different things as if they were the same.
Have a % chance on a swing connect to instantly win the fight is not the same as a varying dmg amount on factors you can control.
And interesting that you list crushtrough, which is even more fucking gay than knockdown. A noskill feature that adds notthing of value to the game. As well as couched lance damage.
Things that reduce the level of skill required to win are bad for the game.
But i guess some people need them crutches, cav couched lance on battle and mauler camping ladders on sieges. woooooo funnnn...............
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I am currently a 15-24 arbalestier using the mace as a secondary. MW arb and +2 mace. I have 5 PS and I estimate that against a MEDIUM armoured target (around heraldic mail and mail shirts) I would say as OBJECTIVELY as possible I get around 15 percent knockdown. Against a plate user I seem to get around 10 percent. Against plain clothes folks, I'll knock them down as much as 25 percent.
Now, here's what you must take into consideration. I have 2 ironflesh with a 15str build. I will go down in 2 hits of a 21/18 2h user if he gets quality hits in. I only use 100wpf in 2h MAXIMUM in order to be an effective arbalestier. That means a dedicated melee will ALWAYS be able to swing faster than I can unless I out-play him in footwork or feinting. If it is a simple block-attack-block fight, he will win. In order to emerge from a melee with a dedicated melee victorious, I MUST rely on teammates, luck, being very unpredictable, or actually being better than the other player.
As something like a post-script: remember that knockdown chance is not a flat value across all builds. It is based upon raw damage dealt and your weapon's weight. A loomed knockdown weapon will gain weight to become more effective. You may be experiencing +2 or +3 maces such as mine and become frustrated by that. Just remember, if you land 2 solid hits on me as a strength or even balanced build, I WILL die. I must land 5-6 solid hits on a medium armoured dedicated melee foe to slay him. If I fight a plate user with a heavy strength build, it will take me something like at LEAST 10 hits to kill him on my own. Just TRY taking down fucking empauller or vaalken with my build in melee.
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Also, I forgot to point out in my first post that knocking someone down is not an "instant win". I have knocked down players had had them rise up to live, and just as often fight back long enough to escape or kill me. Getting knocked down is only a death sentence if the conditions are right for their "free hit" to kill you, if it connects. This means, assuming that you're in your 57 body armor, that you have already taken substantial damage or that they have massive amounts of PS.
Getting knocked down by a blunt weapon is similar to getting knocked down by a horse in many ways. It's only a death sentence if you were fighting against the odds to begin with.
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I have a stupid question regarding knockdown. If I am on horse, and I have some hammer in my hand, and I hit someone with that hammer, don't even touch with a horse, is there any possibility that a knockdown will happen?
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I have a stupid question regarding knockdown. If I am on horse, and I have some hammer in my hand, and I hit someone with that hammer, don't even touch with a horse, is there any possibility that a knockdown will happen?
Yes, and considering the speed bonus of the approaching horse as you swing your knockdown chance would be substantially higher than if you had hit the same opponent on foot.
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a pure melee build (so 6 ps or 130 wpf
Lulz, my char is pure 2her and has 124 wpf. Lvl 34. Also, most of the ninja guys have only 5 PS. So you're trying to say we're not supposed to use knockdawn weapons? :shock:
I only use 100wpf in 2h MAXIMUM in order to be an effective arbalestier. That means a dedicated melee will ALWAYS be able to swing faster than I can
Not true, difference between your 100 and 150 wpf is meaningless and mace is the third fastest 2h weapon. So no, dedicated 2hers don't swing faster.
Just remember, if you land 2 solid hits on me as a strength or even balanced build, I WILL die. I must land 5-6 solid hits on a medium armoured dedicated melee foe to slay him.
Not true. With +3 mace, 5 PS and 100 wpf you deal 20,5 average damage with every hit against guy having 50 body armor. Or even more including speed bonus. On the other hand with +3 danish, 124 wpf, 7 PS on average I'd deal 28,5 damage to the same guy. I'm not saying you're not at a disadvantage in terms of melee fight, but you're exaggerating a bit, don't you think? :wink:
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The good thing about knockdown is that it is nearly random, more STR improves it (true?) but you can never tell when you get knocked down, thats a good thing!
Actually that's terrible and makes the game less skill based.
I think knockdown weapons are a little overpowered, especially when it comes to 1h maces, at least compared to other 1h. They are still very bad when you look at weapons from other classes. It's the use of those small maces by agi characters that really makes them horrible to fight against.
Btw, I use a knockdown 1h myself and I feel very bad for my victim when I get 2 free hits (attack, kick, attack) on him because he was unlucky.
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Lulz, my char is pure 2her and has 124 wpf. Lvl 34. Also, most of the ninja guys have only 5 PS. So you're trying to say we're not supposed to use knockdawn weapons? :shock:
Not true, difference between your 100 and 150 wpf is meaningless and mace is the third fastest 2h weapon. So no, dedicated 2hers don't swing faster.
Not true. With +3 mace, 5 PS and 100 wpf you deal 20,5 average damage with every hit against guy having 50 body armor. Or even more including speed bonus. On the other hand with +3 danish, 124 wpf, 7 PS on average I'd deal 28,5 damage to the same guy. I'm not saying you're not at a disadvantage in terms of melee fight, but you're exaggerating a bit, don't you think? :wink:
The only thing that comes to mind is a question. Do you play on EU or NA? I don't recognize your name, so I hope I'm not incorrect in assuming you play on EU. My post's evidence is purely anecdotal. I don't care to crunch numbers so much in a vidya game. But it seems that NA has a large proportion of strength builds in comparision to EU, correct? Perhaps that's where we do not see eye to eye. Maybe I've got luck that seems to find me fighting 27-12 builds all day long.
In regards to the out-swinging comment; again my evidence is purely anecdotal. Perhaps the majority of the dedicated melee players that I find myself engaging are indeed much more skilled than I am in terms of footwork and other dueling skills. I don't think that to be the case, since I often get valour as a ranged-dominant hybrid, which many people I have talked to consider under-powered when it comes to getting points and thusly valour.
One thing I did not mention is the fact that the mace is 70 length. That ain't shit, cap'n. I haven't actually seen a complaint about other knockdown weapons (mauls, mallet, knobbed and spiked maces, goendag, etc) which are much greater length. Many knockdowns and kills are gained from attacks on players that are not actively fighting you. I.e. sneak attacks. If I get in a sneak attack with a 70-length weapon, I feel that the other person deserves to get whacked a time or two for that.
I'm really not attempting to exaggerate. I did think for a while on what numbers to claim I experienced. But, for the umpteenth time, I barely did any research into them. And, of course, it is human tendency to recall negative events more often than positive events. Negative events are accompanied by anger, frustration, etc. A much more memorable emotion than "lol i just knocked that bundle of sticks down and killed him lol"
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I don't disagree with you. Just thought these two sentences which I quoted aren't completely true. But I'm perfectly fine with knockdown and your mace :wink: Cheers :P
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knockdown is utter horseshit in this game. there is no rhyme or reason to it. a hammer that glances can knock you down. obvioulsy it isnt about damage.
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knockdown is utter horseshit in this game. there is no rhyme or reason to it. a hammer that glances can knock you down. obvioulsy it isnt about damage.
Raw damage has nothing to do with armor values.
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I do not think
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I do not think
Then you are a true man, for you know your only weakness.
Actually that sounds more like you pressed enter too early
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Then you are a true man, for you know your only weakness.
Actually that sounds more like you pressed enter too early
All the time i see I think, i think, i think...yeah, good to have opinions and stuff, but in this matter, it is really hard to see other side of the fence. Either you do use those knockdown weapons and you do not want to see anything happening to them (and god, i do remember morningstar with crusthtrough and other suff) or you are a guy who doesnt like to be knocked down in his heavy armor by a freaking peasant with hammer. I get it. I am on both sides, when i level up, u use mostly blunt weapons, on higher i am getting used to play with Bec in secondary, man, that is lots of fun. And even with my 8 PS i do not knockdown everytime. And yes, even i do get pissed while knocked down by some shitty low tier weapon in hands of a paperman. But guess what? I got used to it, shit happens.
Saying that randomness is bad for pvp environment is bullshit, it adds a little spice up to the mix. Still i do think that high tier armor should really do something more than just make you feel better about yourself, when we speak of knockdown.
Not to speak, most of the KD weapons are quite fast too, so they are really too good as melee sidearm. I do not mind archers being somewhat able to defend themselves in melee and land a hit or two, the bitching that archer can never compete with 2h/polearmer is unnecessary, as they usually have quite high athl and light armor, hence beter maneuverability. Add this to high speed knockdown weapon and voila, you do not even fucking need any points in melee skills to do well (and yeah, i do play alt archer with mace, so i know what i am talking about). The athletics by itself gives you quite huge advantage on slower target. You can dance in, hit, dance out of his hit, repeat. And take into consideration that every hit he makes can have quite some speedbonus=dmg=knockdown chance.
Id say knockdown weapons are fine, but not as melee sidearm for ranged :mrgreen: At least i would remove knockdown from all 0 slot weapons that have it (if there are some more than hammer).
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Raw damage has nothing to do with armor values.
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No shit. The regular hammer at 21 blunt knocksdown like a champ. Even when it glances. Sooooo anyway you okk at it it isnt about damage, raw damage or after armor. Like i said, no rhyme or reason. Altho i noticed the more agi you have more knockdowns. The other day i got knockedown 3 strait times in a row by a dude spamming a flanged mace, yet the long maul didnt not once. Soooo strange
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knockdown is utter horseshit in this game. there is no rhyme or reason to it. a hammer that glances can knock you down. obvioulsy it isnt about damage.
Figures, all 3 downvotes are eurotrash scumbags. Fuck this forum. Stick to putting up jerkoff trades up on the marketplace
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It gets bigger when I pull, mmmhmmmm.
Knockdown makes me feel like a strength whore :3
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From what I know, knockdown chance depends only on strenght skill and weapon weight. Also knockdown is calculated before damage calc. so you can be knockdown even on glance hit.
Overall blunt weapons are not so good unloomed but fully loomed its different story because bonus of 3 blunt(also pierce without knockdown) is much better then 3 in cut.
Also pierce and blunt weapons does smaller damage in general so bonus of 3 increases their effectivity much more in percents.
From my experience with mw long hafted spiked mace its more effective then mw long bardiche on kuyak+ build and its 35b vs. 48c and 91 vs. 90 speed. Only drawback is that weapon is unbalanced which is annoying specially with higher ping. But overall mw longspikemace is very good weapon in polearms cattegory although heavily outclassed by bar mace(2h) and warhammer(1h).
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Half of you are still saying "I think knockdown works like ____"
(rand(0.0, 1.0) < min(item_weight * 0.33, 2.0) * min((raw_damage - 20.0) * 0.5, 10.0) * 0.015)
And the modifiers that will determine damage:
High damaging knockdown weapon
High powerstrike
High athletic for speed bonus
and finally if you got all that high WPF in the choosen weapon.
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Every body has access to knock down weapons and the fact is they would be fairly weak without that knockdown. Pole arm get the strongest knockdown weapons but they aren't that great anyway.
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