cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Lennu on August 22, 2012, 02:11:26 am

Title: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Lennu on August 22, 2012, 02:11:26 am
Same goes for longspears.

Their thrust damage is the same as danish/german gs, combined with the high speedbonus those weapons get for being so slow the damage is just too much, not to mention the new polearm stab and their reach. All together, pikes and longspears have become one of the best melee weapons in game. Those weapons are meant to be used as support weapons in melee fight or as anti-cav weapons, not some 1hitting monsters.

So i came up with one solutions that might return those clumsy poles back to their place, while they still could remain usefull as support/anti-cav weapons.

Firstly, nerf their damage to ground!  :twisted:  I'd start with -4 to their damage for starters, then see how things go. Damage nerf simply to reduce the killing power of these things. Pikes can still be used in melee fights to force the enemy to hold his downblock or risk getting hit and stunned, but they no longer take 70% of your hp in 1 hit.
Now ofc, pikes and longspears would become even more useless against cav. So some changes need to be made so they can kill horses once again. And my solution will bring the wrath of all cav players down upon me, but I'm ready to take that burden for myself to carry  :wink: :

When a horse is forced to rear (stand up on it's hindlegs) by a polearm's thrust or the horse running into a wall, the horse will take damage. The amount of damage done should ofc depend on the horses speed. Not sure how much damage would be reasonable, since adding something like would probably change the way cavalry needs to be played. But something like this would be bring an interesting change towards a morealistic battlefield (no more players riding into walls when couching others), and the change would probably be just as big as the weapon slot system  :wink:
I'm not if this is possible to do, since I'm no modder. But as a thought it sounds nice to me.
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Kirbies on August 22, 2012, 02:22:35 am
Honestly I like the way they are right now, they are quite horrible by themselves, but are great support weapons.
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Joker86 on August 22, 2012, 02:29:49 am
- Pikes are three slot weapons
- Pikes are not sheathable (= no shield possible)
- Pikes have only one attack direction
- Pikes got affected the most by the turn speed nerf
- Pikes are unbalanced
- Pikes have the lowest speed ingame, except of a few crushthrough weapons
- Pikes are more dependant on other players than any other class ingame (this point counts at least ten times more than any other)
- Pikes do have the greatsword stab values, which are absolutely mediocre. Compare with other polearms. I don't see the point in your comparison.
- Pikes glance in at least half of all cases
- Pikes do NOT do a ton of damage (look above, the greatsword vs. pike point), unless the player is a strength crutcher. In this case, any weapon will cause severe damage.
- Pikes are unusable in narrow spaces or on slopes like hills. Thank god hills are so rare on maps  :rolleyes:

I encourage you to create a STF character and try playing pike yourself. You will cry rivers. Going to a battle equipped with a pike or equipped with a wienerwurst should be about the same fun. Perhaps the wiener is even to prefer, because it won't hurt that much when your enemies shove it up your ass.
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Havoco on August 22, 2012, 02:35:59 am
Going to a battle equipped with a pike or equipped with a wienerwurst should be about the same fun. Perhaps the wiener is even to prefer, because it won't hurt that much when your enemies shove it up your ass.
I lol'd. Maybe they'll be extra nice and shove the wurst down ur throat.
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Joker86 on August 22, 2012, 02:44:08 am
I lol'd. Maybe they'll be extra nice and shove the wurst down ur throat.

They do. But unfortunately only after the ass action.
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Lennu on August 22, 2012, 02:54:44 am
- Pikes are more dependant on other players than any other class ingame (this point counts at least ten times more than any other)
In my opinion they should be support weapons, so... yeah, they need other players around  :lol:

But you're right about the three slot thingy, once you take a pike you're really stuck with it. Altho there are plenty of 1slot weapons for you to choose from... all the 1handers at least :P

And the slow attack speed really is the key to their insane speed bonuses. The slower the attack is, the greater the effect the characters movement speed has.

Any opinions about the change for cavalry?
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Malaclypse on August 22, 2012, 03:16:54 am
IMO they should just remove all weapons outside of pikes, long spears, and long mauls from the game.
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Gurnisson on August 22, 2012, 03:17:26 am
The low speed and using the speed bonus is a double-edged sword. You make it sounds like it's got nothing bad about it. To deal good damage with my pike (69 speed) I need to move forward while my enemy moves forward and stab them in the face. If they block me when I do this, I'll be vulnerable for almost a full second because of the extreme thrust-stun the slow weapons have. That's at least one free hit if my enemy knows how to play, though there's a lot of two-handers that try to impress me with their feinting when getting close which actually gives me time to recover. :P

Pikes are only average anti-cav weapons. Bamboo spear, bill and awlpikes are better anti-cav weapons because of their damage, speed and their lack of length (yes, lack of length). You might disagree with me there, but I did more anti-cav work while being dedicated with those three weapons than I do as a piker. Almost no cav dares going anywhere close to me with the long pike, even when I try to pretend that I'm not paying attention by the use of the view outfit button. With the awlpikes, bill and bamboo you can punish a cavalry you rear quite hard because you have the speed to attack the reared cavalry several times and the damage to bring the rider to the ground and kill him while he's helpless. You can also outfight several cavalry at once, something you can't do with a pike because of how slow it is. The number of times horses run, away even after up to 5-6 pike stabs are amazing. That's why I usually go for the rider when possible, because that's a certain one-hit (on a charging one, mind you)

Bamboo Spear, awlpikes and bill are better anti-cav weapons, more damaging and better up close than pikes.
Pikes packs a good punch while used right and have a deadly impact in larger group where they can punish the ones in the enemy front-line.
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Joseph Porta on August 22, 2012, 03:55:54 am
Pikes do too much dmg 2 hits on coat of plates(6if) and im down to 20%, if they arent headshots that is.

Sometimes I wonder what I pay upkeep for.

Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: oohillac on August 22, 2012, 04:14:41 am
downblock
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Zanze on August 22, 2012, 05:52:35 am
downblock
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Smoothrich on August 22, 2012, 05:56:29 am
to be honest the turn nerf (and earlier activation) to thrusts was an insane buff to stabs on all weapons, polearms are probably the most OP now, since they all have retardedly high thrust damage and speed or footwork don't matter because the thrust is instant at any reach

before you had to lolstab to not glance, now you can stab in any situation for an instant perfect high damage hit, and still 180 jump stab if you delay your release
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: dodnet on August 22, 2012, 08:05:47 am
Pike/long spear is fine. And: they aren't as good as anti cav as some think, because every cav just avoids them like hell. I kill much more cav with my fine Light Lance.
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Nehvar on August 22, 2012, 08:07:28 am
Pikes are fine.  There wouldn't be so many of them if there weren't cav everywhere.
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Ragnar on August 22, 2012, 09:28:27 pm
pretty sure if im half a foot away from someones face they shouldn't be able to gut stab me with a pike.....

seems like ppl just accept ridiculous things we've had all along in place of arguing over new shit
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Joker86 on August 22, 2012, 09:43:00 pm
pretty sure if im half a foot away from someones face they shouldn't be able to gut stab me with a pike.....

You are right. That's why you can't stab people directly in front of you with a pike. The weapon has no "hitbox" there (?).
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Ragnar on August 22, 2012, 09:48:24 pm
You are right. That's why you can't stab people directly in front of you with a pike. The weapon has no "hitbox" there (?).

that was sarcasm, both the longspear and pike for some reason can haft stab at that range for full dmg, maybe not anymore on battle? but on siege has always been like that
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Zanze on August 22, 2012, 10:39:15 pm
pretty sure if im half a foot away from someones face they shouldn't be able to gut stab me with a pike.....

seems like ppl just accept ridiculous things we've had all along in place of arguing over new shit

pretty sure if I stab your face the weapon at your waist shouldn't be able to block it.....

seems like ppl just accept ridiculous things we've had all along in place of arguing over new shit
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Ragnar on August 22, 2012, 11:11:25 pm
pretty sure if I stab your face the weapon at your waist shouldn't be able to block it.....

seems like ppl just accept ridiculous things we've had all along in place of arguing over new shit

that has to do with the animation you silly cunt, did you even read the issue? down block for thrusts fine, you really think if your up against someone you should be able to hit with the tip of a weapon thats about 6 feet away, behind your target
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Teeth on August 22, 2012, 11:30:14 pm
Can you imagine Craftybadger being pretty much the only one who was a pure piker (longspear) over a year back? Back then it was way faster, sheathable, had fast turnrate, had floorstabbing, more damage, had an overhead and wasn't unbalanced. Yet I looked at him piking and I thought, wow that is amazingly hard to pull off. How can the longspear be way more popular now while being so much more shit? Metagame is a strange thing.

Oh they are pretty well balanced now.
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Zerran on August 23, 2012, 12:55:17 am
that was sarcasm, both the longspear and pike for some reason can haft stab at that range for full dmg, maybe not anymore on battle? but on siege has always been like that

Incorrect, the longspear can do this, the pike cannot. It literally has no hitbox until about 4 feet away from the user, which is why it can stab through people.
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Zanze on August 23, 2012, 02:47:52 am
that has to do with the animation you silly cunt, did you even read the issue? down block for thrusts fine, you really think if your up against someone you should be able to hit with the tip of a weapon thats about 6 feet away, behind your target

So you being close to the model of the longspear/pike and still getting hit by the shaft of it has nothing to do with the animation. Block down, grow up, and get a life. Pikes and long spears have one attack direction, if you they trouble so much go play an easier game or grab a shield.

Also, Zerran is correct. Easy tactic i've done with Relit while using a Pike is hump my teammates back and stab clearly through his body at the guy he is fighting.
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Lech on August 23, 2012, 08:14:14 pm
If they block me when I do this, I'll be vulnerable for almost a full second because of the extreme thrust-stun the slow weapons have.

All weapon have insane thrust stuns. It's more visible when you have just one or two direction, but as 1h i died so many times because i stunned myself or glanced.
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on August 23, 2012, 09:29:33 pm
All weapon have insane thrust stuns.
Not 2h, just sayin'.
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Lech on August 23, 2012, 09:56:12 pm
Not 2h, just sayin'.

Fun thing is, 2h too.
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Teeth on August 23, 2012, 10:09:24 pm
Duration of the thrust stun is dependent on weapon speed. You can mostly recover from the thrust stun to even block chambers as a 1h.
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Tore on August 23, 2012, 10:15:34 pm
- Pikes are three slot weapons
- Pikes are not sheathable (= no shield possible)
- Pikes have only one attack direction
- Pikes got affected the most by the turn speed nerf
- Pikes are unbalanced
- Pikes have the lowest speed ingame, except of a few crushthrough weapons
- Pikes are more dependant on other players than any other class ingame (this point counts at least ten times more than any other)
- Pikes do have the greatsword stab values, which are absolutely mediocre. Compare with other polearms. I don't see the point in your comparison.
- Pikes glance in at least half of all cases
- Pikes do NOT do a ton of damage (look above, the greatsword vs. pike point), unless the player is a strength crutcher. In this case, any weapon will cause severe damage.
- Pikes are unusable in narrow spaces or on slopes like hills. Thank god hills are so rare on maps  :rolleyes:

I encourage you to create a STF character and try playing pike yourself. You will cry rivers. Going to a battle equipped with a pike or equipped with a wienerwurst should be about the same fun. Perhaps the wiener is even to prefer, because it won't hurt that much when your enemies shove it up your ass.

This. Pike/Longspear should actualy be buffed a bit imo..

Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Son Of Odin on August 24, 2012, 12:42:50 am
Same goes for longspears.

Their thrust damage is the same as danish/german gs, combined with the high speedbonus those weapons get for being so slow the damage is just too much, not to mention the new polearm stab and their reach. All together, pikes and longspears have become one of the best melee weapons in game. Those weapons are meant to be used as support weapons in melee fight or as anti-cav weapons, not some 1hitting monsters.

So i came up with one solutions that might return those clumsy poles back to their place, while they still could remain usefull as support/anti-cav weapons.

Firstly, nerf their damage to ground!  :twisted:  I'd start with -4 to their damage for starters, then see how things go. Damage nerf simply to reduce the killing power of these things. Pikes can still be used in melee fights to force the enemy to hold his downblock or risk getting hit and stunned, but they no longer take 70% of your hp in 1 hit.
Now ofc, pikes and longspears would become even more useless against cav. So some changes need to be made so they can kill horses once again. And my solution will bring the wrath of all cav players down upon me, but I'm ready to take that burden for myself to carry  :wink: :

When a horse is forced to rear (stand up on it's hindlegs) by a polearm's thrust or the horse running into a wall, the horse will take damage. The amount of damage done should ofc depend on the horses speed. Not sure how much damage would be reasonable, since adding something like would probably change the way cavalry needs to be played. But something like this would be bring an interesting change towards a morealistic battlefield (no more players riding into walls when couching others), and the change would probably be just as big as the weapon slot system  :wink:
I'm not if this is possible to do, since I'm no modder. But as a thought it sounds nice to me.

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Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Lech on August 24, 2012, 03:47:26 pm
Duration of the thrust stun is dependent on weapon speed. You can mostly recover from the thrust stun to even block chambers as a 1h.

You aren't stunned after chambers at all if you didn't noticed it yet.
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: [ptx] on August 24, 2012, 04:10:31 pm
Can you imagine Craftybadger being pretty much the only one who was a pure piker (longspear) over a year back?
wat
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Lennu on August 24, 2012, 06:07:05 pm
Well. Like Joker86 suggested, I made a piker alt with 15/24 build and using a 1handed sidearm. I used 11k gold (started with  nord nobleman outfit  :lol:) to gear myself up and played for a few hours.

With only my long spear, iberian mace (which I have to use about once every 5 rounds) and leather jacket + some shitty boots I right now have 1,6 k/d ratio + valor almost all the time (new eez.to.get-valor) So yep, I'm not convinced that piking/poking with a longspear is hard, at least not as hard as archery  :lol:   But it looks like that the majority of the community does not agree with me on that.

Any opinions on that epic cav nerf? Exept SoO's
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Because I'm a bit tired of seeing cav couching a player next to a brick wall, riding into that wall, and then riding away all unharmed. But that's pretty much a realism-problem.
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Teeth on August 24, 2012, 07:06:08 pm
wat
Spring 2011, there was barely anyone using purely the pike as a main weapon.

You aren't stunned after chambers at all if you didn't noticed it yet.
What? Is that just for 1h, can't say people chamber my thrusts much, but 2h and polearm gets stunned hard if I chamber their thrust.
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 24, 2012, 07:17:37 pm
that was sarcasm, both the longspear and pike for some reason can haft stab at that range for full dmg, maybe not anymore on battle? but on siege has always been like that

Pike could never, ever, stab point blank, the weapon is long enough to do weird things to the game engine that was never designed to handle it, hence why it can ghost through teammates if used correctly.
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Joker86 on August 24, 2012, 08:33:30 pm
Well. Like Joker86 suggested, I made a piker alt with 15/24 build and using a 1handed sidearm. I used 11k gold (started with  nord nobleman outfit  :lol:) to gear myself up and played for a few hours.

With only my long spear, iberian mace (which I have to use about once every 5 rounds) and leather jacket + some shitty boots I right now have 1,6 k/d ratio + valor almost all the time (new eez.to.get-valor) So yep, I'm not convinced that piking/poking with a longspear is hard, at least not as hard as archery  :lol:   But it looks like that the majority of the community does not agree with me on that.

Well, a few hours is not enough. Apparently you had a good round or two, but I'd like to see your reaction when things are not going so well. Having a 5:8 ratio doesn't prove a lot. Try playing more, experience the darkest moments of piking, and then decide.

Of course things are different when you play together with clan mates or friends via teamspeak. In this case a pike indeed is highly effective.
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Lech on August 24, 2012, 10:03:58 pm
Spring 2011, there was barely anyone using purely the pike as a main weapon.
What? Is that just for 1h, can't say people chamber my thrusts much, but 2h and polearm gets stunned hard if I chamber their thrust.

I chambered about 5-6 times polearm stab from ashwood pike (he chambered mine too) with my stab. When i block normal way i am be unable to attack that fast after thrust from polearm. So yeah, when you are chambered you have no stun.
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: cmp on August 25, 2012, 02:56:07 am
Thrust getting blocked = baseStun * 0.55
Swing getting blocked = baseStun * 0.35
Thrust/swing getting chambered = baseStun * 0.4

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Zerran on August 25, 2012, 04:07:31 am
Thrust getting blocked = baseStun * 0.55
Swing getting blocked = baseStun * 0.35
Thrust/swing getting chambered = baseStun * 0.4

(click to show/hide)

I kind of had a feeling thrust stun was shorter on chambers. It always felt like pikes/LS could recover a bit too fast when I chamber them. Nice to have the numbers.

By the way, any chance we could ever get a long ass thread that details a bunch of these formulas?
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Smoothrich on August 25, 2012, 04:38:50 am
I kind of had a feeling thrust stun was shorter on chambers. It always felt like pikes/LS could recover a bit too fast when I chamber them. Nice to have the numbers.

By the way, any chance we could ever get a long ass thread that details a bunch of these formulas?

CMP or Urist only emerge from the cesspool of the Warband coding pit to lay smackdowns on people shit talking the mod with realtalk formulas to blame the turks, then receede back to the shadows of WSE sorcery to continue adding *~360 rageball noscope goalie dives~*.  Keep up the good work.
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on August 25, 2012, 05:51:53 am
They are support weapons you bloody numpty! Only the ninjaeriest of ninjas can 1v1 with well and they really only kill in 1v1 situations in one of 2 ways. Extreme levels of timing and a bit luck or the person they are fighting is you, ya bloody numpty.
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Teeth on August 25, 2012, 06:04:20 pm
I kind of had a feeling thrust stun was shorter on chambers. It always felt like pikes/LS could recover a bit too fast when I chamber them. Nice to have the numbers.

By the way, any chance we could ever get a long ass thread that details a bunch of these formulas?
Still, the decrease in attack duration after you chamber compared to a regular attack is probably a lot more significant than the 27% reduction in stun time?
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: seddrik on August 25, 2012, 07:50:03 pm
Please no more nerfs.  Just learn to play.  Down block.
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Zerran on August 26, 2012, 06:55:57 am
Still, the decrease in attack duration after you chamber compared to a regular attack is probably a lot more significant than the 27% reduction in stun time?

It WOULD be, except when chambering a LS/Pike WITH a Pike, I'm so damn slow they can get a block up either way.  :lol:
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Son Of Odin on August 26, 2012, 05:16:19 pm
Any opinions on that epic cav nerf? Exept SoO's

What makes you think I meant that gif only for the cav nerf? :mrgreen:

I have to agree with Joker on this:
Well, a few hours is not enough. Apparently you had a good round or two, but I'd like to see your reaction when things are not going so well. Having a 5:8 ratio doesn't prove a lot. Try playing more, experience the darkest moments of piking, and then decide.

Of course things are different when you play together with clan mates or friends via teamspeak. In this case a pike indeed is highly effective.

It doesn't only apply on pikes and long spears but any new weapon class you try out. Same goes for cav. Some people make cav stf to prove a point. They play cav for couple good maps, get semi decent score and conclude it's the ultimate op ezimode... Couple of hours or even couple of days is not enough experience to say jacks squat about the subject.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Vkvkvk on August 26, 2012, 09:46:15 pm
(click to show/hide)

Not all of us wants to play the flavor of the month year or follow the "If you can't beat them, join them" bullshit.
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: JennaHaze on August 26, 2012, 10:18:57 pm
- Pikes got affected the most by the turn speed nerf?
- Pikes got affected the most by the turn speed nerf?
- Pikes got affected the most by the turn speed nerf?
- Pikes got affected the most by the turn speed nerf?
- Pikes got affected the most by the turn speed nerf?




GO FUCK YOURSELF!


Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: sjarken on August 26, 2012, 11:02:30 pm
pretty sure if im half a foot away from someones face they shouldn't be able to gut stab me with a pike.....

seems like ppl just accept ridiculous things we've had all along in place of arguing over new shit


It isn't realistic enough  for you?
Well my char never stops after 10+ straight hours for a shit or a piss.
I cant throw my sword roll, duck, blink........................

Its a game!
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Son Of Odin on August 26, 2012, 11:05:29 pm
Not all of us wants to play the flavor of the month year or follow the "If you can't beat them, join them" bullshit.
Me neither, but do you see me whining like a little bitch? 8-)
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Strider on August 27, 2012, 12:34:36 am
buff awlpikes....
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: justme on August 27, 2012, 12:49:58 am
more cav, more pikes , as i said earlier, but nobody listen
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Piok on August 27, 2012, 08:22:48 pm
Only few people actually use pike as anticav  :idea:
Title: Re: Stop this pike madness!!
Post by: Zanze on August 27, 2012, 10:28:42 pm
Pikes are support weapons, being anti-cav is being a support. Everyone uses it for that purpose then. The only reason you think otherwise is because many cav see that big ass pike and say "well, i'm not getting anywhere near that guy!" So the pikeman ends up using it more on infantry then on horses. No point in waiting for something that isn't going to come.