cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Elmuri on August 19, 2012, 12:14:52 pm

Title: Fun
Post by: Elmuri on August 19, 2012, 12:14:52 pm
I have a couple of things to say.

All the maps are made so "perfect" that they don't have any funny places to go to (some might call them glitches). Is some map has some funny spot, it get's removed soon. For example Commercial city had places to hide while you watched teams run circle and you could take out lone wolfs. Also all roofs where it's hard to get are blocked by force field.

And about ladders. They brought creativity to the mod, escpeially in siege. It is stated that attackers could easily win with ladders, but I'm not sure if that was right, except in some maps. At least I don't remember that it was much harder to defend. Anyway they were funny, and I prefer fun before balance. Same thing goes to weapon racks and such (though amount of siege shields and such should be limited for defenders).

My last thing is about drowning. It might be realistic but it also limits your gameplay. CRPG used to have lot's of options to do, now it's just boring hack'n'slah (and shooting)
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Protemus on August 19, 2012, 12:16:48 pm
true story elmuri,bring back the ladders

I don't care was it advantage for archers or not...it was fun as hell
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Leshma on August 19, 2012, 12:47:09 pm
There are still one or two places they haven't patched, I hope they never find out.

Seriously, turning cRPG into hack&slash no brain fest, makes it boring. We already have siege for that and in siege, you can hide at secret places although you're not helping your team that way.

You're slowly turning this mod into some zombie cRPG, which is old cRPG melee tanks bashing each other but this time without strong ranged, variety of builds (I can officially say: R.I.P. hybrids) and less fun than ever.

I get more excitement earning gold on marketplace than actually playing cRPG...
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Butan on August 19, 2012, 01:26:34 pm
The "balance" lobby has won over the last couple of months a lot of battles (upkeep, no ladders, slower speed, map corrections, items revamp, turning nerf)  and the "fun" people not so much (valor, yells, rageball, chamber kicks... and when you dont like rageball its not much :mrgreen:).

If armor packs (and weapon packs!) were released more often, even if they were implemented in the game as gimmicks and/or in a "balanced" way (and with no overloading of the game engine... which I know from my small experience that is the main issue with adding more and more items IG) would keep the "fun" part of the community on its toes. This and the future patchs which should up the game speed a notch (wpf revamp) and some other gameplay tweaks for more fighting variety should vastly improve the way the community feels about this game.


But in the end, you cant please everyone with ONE game...
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: sF_Guardian on August 19, 2012, 01:35:53 pm
There are still one or two places they haven't patched, I hope they never find out.

Seriously, turning cRPG into hack&slash no brain fest, makes it boring. We already have siege for that and in siege, you can hide at secret places although you're not helping your team that way.

You're slowly turning this mod into some zombie cRPG, which is old cRPG melee tanks bashing each other but this time without strong ranged, variety of builds (I can officially say: R.I.P. hybrids) and less fun than ever.

I get more excitement earning gold on marketplace than actually playing cRPG...
Same shit here, did play 10 mins or so the last days but done over 5 trades, its just fucked up, I have no fun by playin except on my Hoplite (funny strenght fuck)

I have a couple of things to say.

All the maps are made so "perfect" that they don't have any funny places to go to (some might call them glitches). Is some map has some funny spot, it get's removed soon. For example Commercial city had places to hide while you watched teams run circle and you could take out lone wolfs. Also all roofs where it's hard to get are blocked by force field.

And about ladders. They brought creativity to the mod, escpeially in siege. It is stated that attackers could easily win with ladders, but I'm not sure if that was right, except in some maps. At least I don't remember that it was much harder to defend. Anyway they were funny, and I prefer fun before balance. Same thing goes to weapon racks and such (though amount of siege shields and such should be limited for defenders).

My last thing is about drowning. It might be realistic but it also limits your gameplay. CRPG used to have lot's of options to do, now it's just boring hack'n'slah (and shooting)

This guy is the one, praise him!
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Rhekimos on August 19, 2012, 01:44:01 pm
I have a couple of things to say.

All the maps are made so "perfect" that they don't have any funny places to go to (some might call them glitches). Is some map has some funny spot, it get's removed soon. For example Commercial city had places to hide while you watched teams run circle and you could take out lone wolfs. Also all roofs where it's hard to get are blocked by force field.

And about ladders. They brought creativity to the mod, escpeially in siege. It is stated that attackers could easily win with ladders, but I'm not sure if that was right, except in some maps. At least I don't remember that it was much harder to defend. Anyway they were funny, and I prefer fun before balance. Same thing goes to weapon racks and such (though amount of siege shields and such should be limited for defenders).

My last thing is about drowning. It might be realistic but it also limits your gameplay. CRPG used to have lot's of options to do, now it's just boring hack'n'slah (and shooting)
+1

The changing battlefield with ladders was great. You never knew where the enemy was coming from. Now it's all boring and predictable. And slow. And samey.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Corsair831 on August 19, 2012, 01:57:25 pm
nah, ladders were crap, every round was a massive camp fest on battle, with both teams camping one or another roof, and the infantry impotent to get at them.

It sucked ass.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Spleen on August 19, 2012, 01:59:29 pm
Dont forget the (short) time when the map switched after 3 rounds - was harder to hold x5, but also gave alot of variety imho
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Grumbs on August 19, 2012, 02:04:32 pm
I think some people are just getting bored of the game in general. Every game will do that to you if you play for years..putting ladders in, buffing ranged, having glitchy map areas, whatever..you will still get bored because you played it for years already. Take a break, do a stupid build that makes you totally underpowered, sell all looms, roleplay some stupid theme in a clan..

Personally I think the game is fun as hell but can still be improved without going backwards. I don't want people glitching maps, don't want OP ranged pew pew classes ruling servers, don't want people hiding on buildings with ladders. Do want harder cav, harder (yet rewarding) ranged etc. I don't think any of the recent melee nerfed were bad..I like that pole stagger is gone eventhough I am high level polearm. I have addapted to turn speed nerf. I think it had a good impact on mauler spammers and adds a little more skill to landing turning hits

I am quite apprehensive over the multi changes, think it could result in less team work (less reward for simply winning the round). I like that support damage is rewarded though

Shields are still a bit dumb. Need some more player skill when it comes to defending with a shield, less forcefield for melee hits etc
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Rhekimos on August 19, 2012, 02:11:13 pm
It's now an old man's game, where you don't need to think outside a very limited routine or have reflexes. Everything is laid ready for you, charge the enemy spawn, you probably see them spawning already or they will always come from this same bottleneck. The best way to deal with an enemy mob is to run amongst them, since they can't get you with an overhead or they must risk a sideswing and teamkilling.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: bilwit on August 19, 2012, 02:17:17 pm
Make ladders siege only.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Leshma on August 19, 2012, 02:18:07 pm
Ladders were an issue in battle, no doubt about that.

But I never suggested removal of ladders.

Actually wanted to see non realistic but functional ladders, that would weight 0 or some low weight and that would take zero or max 1 slot. That way everyone could have pocket ladders in order to counter ranged campers on roofs, at any time of the round without having to sacrifice speed.

Instead, they removed ladders and other siege equipment from battle...

I honestly think that old riding skill system was better (1 riding per 6 agi), that shield skill should use similar system. That way, people won't have to sacrifice a lot of points to be able to carry decent shields and ride horses. But no, they put more and more limitations and they still keep doing it.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Rhekimos on August 19, 2012, 02:24:41 pm
Actually wanted to see non realistic but functional ladders, that would weight 0 or some low weight and that would take zero or max 1 slot. That way everyone could have pocket ladders in order to counter ranged campers on roofs, at any time of the round without having to sacrifice speed.

That was the beauty of the ladders-everywhere system. Anyone could keep a pocket ladder in addition to their 2h sword and surprise the archer nest from behind. Surprisingly, not many did.

Again, whining won over fun and tactics.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Leshma on August 19, 2012, 02:28:12 pm
Lizard Man was always carrying ladders :D

Problem was that ladders weight a ton and because of that you have to get rid of them early to be able to fight decently.

Those ladders were needed later, when ranged were already at roofs, but no one had them at that point.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Rhekimos on August 19, 2012, 02:31:56 pm
Lizard Man was always carrying ladders :D

Problem was that ladders weight a ton and because of that you have to get rid of them early to be able to fight decently.

Those ladders were needed later, when ranged were already at roofs, but no one had them at that point.

That's a good point, a big weight reduction would have enabled people to keep them for the later stages as well.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Molly on August 19, 2012, 02:33:11 pm
...as if fun has ever been a priority in development of this modification.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: killnaboy on August 19, 2012, 02:34:52 pm
yes put ladders back in siege. more fun for attackers and defenders. And if i remember right most maps were quite balanced even with ladders
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Grumbs on August 19, 2012, 02:43:09 pm
...as if fun has ever been a priority in development of this modification.

"Fun" is the ultimate goal for a game, but its a subjective concept. You can't please everyone.

"Fun" for me in crpg is team based rewards, rewarding player skill and divergent/dynamic/tactical gameplay (lots of player choices in real time).

"Fun" for me is not voice spamming to the point where you're just trying to make people take notice of you (as merely a tool for attention seekers). I find the voice commands fun to use though, and use them regularly. Fun is not having overpowered or "cheesy" game styles. I include ranged cav or ranged hiding on roofs in this and glitchy shields that block back hits, or even underneath the horse or the horses head. I include lance cav and cav bumps to some extent. I don't think its fun to make people wait while people camp in dodgy places. We saw that recently with the donkey statue map. It might be fun while you're in there, but you just waste everyone else's time

But yeah the devs want to make a fun game, but its not ever going to be to everyone's tastes
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Rhekimos on August 19, 2012, 02:52:13 pm
"Fun" is the ultimate goal for a game...

Fun is not having overpowered or "cheesy" game styles. I include ranged cav or ranged hiding on roofs in this and glitchy shields that block back hits, or even underneath the horse or the horses head. I include lance cav and cav bumps to some extent.

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The shield on horse is sometimes hilariously glitchy, but come on now, whole classes don't fit into your vision of the game?
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Grumbs on August 19, 2012, 02:55:30 pm
I think cav needs some work in general to make it harder yet still rewarding to play. It could use some depth and why would you want to keep shield glitches? I would understand if it had a good impact on gameplay in your opinion. Or is it just "hilariously glitchy"?

I was trying to make a point about "fun" not being a concrete concept that you can say the devs don't want a fun game. I understand my opinion on whats fun is also subjective, would like to see others opinions too
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Rhekimos on August 19, 2012, 02:56:42 pm
... why would you want to keep shield glitches?

I don't.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Rhekimos on August 19, 2012, 03:04:32 pm
Fun does not equal balance and this is what every game strives for.

Good games manage to stay fun, while allowing similar opportunities for everyone.

Quote
"Symmetrical map design"

I'd actually love to see a symmetrical map. Even better I would like it with ladders, where it was up to players to use the map the best they can. And it would always be balanced.

Quote
"rock, paper & scissors class balancing"

I believe this is the worst thing that can happen. A class I can never win against? Where's the fun in that?

Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Grumbs on August 19, 2012, 03:05:11 pm
Fun does not equal balance and this is what every game strives for.

"Symmetrical map design" and "rock, paper & scissors class balancing" equals out chances for winning on both sides, distributes fun experience more evenly across whole community while reducing the individual fun factor in the process.

True, never been much of a fan of rock/paper/scissors design. That sort of thing often makes it so regardless of a players ability at the game, they will get some rewards simply by being rock to someone's scissors

I think everything should have a counter, virtually regardless of class while each should still have their own strengths/weaknesses. The way you counter classes does not always result in fun gameplay though. To counter ranged/cav on flat open maps you are often having to spend inordinate amounts of time behind shield walls/siege shields while the cav/ranged numbers are thinned out

I like semi realistic map design though, with valuable areas and different ways for each team to approach how to win
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Kafein on August 19, 2012, 03:11:22 pm
Ladders destroyed the fun of the game for everybody except archers, xbowmen and a few agi shielder ladder enthusiasts. Removing them was literally the most fun-creating change in cRPG ever.

PS : you probably have short memory about this, no one blames you.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Teeth on August 19, 2012, 03:12:44 pm
I'm all for adding fun back into the mod, but not in the ways the OP talks about. Most of those things are not really funny, or funny for 1 guy, while the rest of the server gets fucked over.

Fun does not equal balance and this is what every game strives for.

"Symmetrical map design" and "rock, paper & scissors class balancing" equals out chances for winning on both sides, distributes fun experience more evenly across whole community while reducing the individual fun factor in the process.
Basically what Kulin_ban said so eloquently.

Ladders destroyed the fun of the game for everybody except archers, xbowmen and a few agi shielder ladder enthusiasts. Removing them was literally the most fun-creating change in cRPG ever.

PS : you probably have short memory about this, no one blames you.
Never forget!
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Silicium on August 19, 2012, 03:13:30 pm
re-adding ladder would make the game fun for a period, yes but after that it would by just a way for archers and other ranger class to roof camp once agein, and that is no fun, or make it that ladder once deployed can't by destroyed in battle but can in siege or only allowing ladder deployment in certain maps.

Personally i think siege feels more realistic without those ladder and make it harder to capture the flag, forcing people to teamwork in order to cap it.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Kafein on August 19, 2012, 03:15:46 pm
Rock, paper, scissors thing should not be taken literally.

cRPG already is like that, with each class having troubles defeating other class, but it's not impossible.

Talking about 1 vs 1, a pikeman will always need more effort to defeat a shielder than a cav. Cav will have it easier to defeat that same shielder(not a hoplite), etc. Twohander will.... oh shit 2h can't be defeated.

Take a perfectly flat map, put two archers in one team, choose any class you want, put two players of that class in the other team. Watch how every single class will die, except archers of course.

(For the record, two shielders cannot protect each other in crossfire while at the same time going towards one archer or both. Two horsemen will be either dehorsed if their horse is too light, or dodged if it is too heavy.)
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Teeth on August 19, 2012, 03:18:03 pm
The day they make it impossible to be a double bodkin stack, hammer wielding, kiting, peasant archer will be the day when fun was restored into cRPG.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Rhekimos on August 19, 2012, 03:18:40 pm
Ladders destroyed the fun of the game for everybody except archers, xbowmen and a few agi shielder ladder enthusiasts. Removing them was literally the most fun-creating change in cRPG ever.

I'm lancer cav, and I thought it was fun overall. Some places could have had invisible walls added to deny the absolute worst places for camping, but ladders contributed more fun than they detracted.

Hell, with a horse and a pocket ladder, even I could get up there.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Grumbs on August 19, 2012, 03:21:36 pm
Half the game is about exploiting other players weaknesses, while playing to your own strengths as much as possible. The game just needs to include counters to what people do. As long as theres a counter, then its all fair. Some things just need better counters imo.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Kafein on August 19, 2012, 03:22:27 pm
The day they make it impossible to be a double bodkin stack, hammer wielding, kiting, peasant archer will be the day when fun was restored into cRPG.

Tbh the only thing wrong with that is the kiting part. Archers should have incentives in fighting whoever comes close to them with a melee weapon instead of running. If this is done, cav will become more of an archer counter thanks to a reduced "evasive mosquito" effect, and shielders will not see their targets fleeing forever while being shot in the back.

I'm lancer cav, and I thought it was fun overall. Some places could have had invisible walls added to deny the absolute worst places for camping, but ladders contributed more fun than they detracted.

Hell, with a horse and a pocket ladder, even I could get up there.

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I don't like when a part of the enemy team is invulnerable to me, while at the same time attacking me just fine.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Rhekimos on August 19, 2012, 03:27:46 pm
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I don't like when a part of the enemy team is invulnerable to me, while at the same time attacking me just fine.

I never thought it was an objective fact. You claimed it was unfun for everybody.

And clever tactics, avoiding the spot where they can fire, so they either need to be useless or abandon their camping spot advantage are some things that were actually done in battle.

Nobody is forcing you to stand in the arrow rain.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Leshma on August 19, 2012, 03:43:42 pm
Ladders destroyed the fun of the game for everybody except archers, xbowmen and a few agi shielder ladder enthusiasts. Removing them was literally the most fun-creating change in cRPG ever.

PS : you probably have short memory about this, no one blames you.

Playing old cRPG with ladders, where half of enemy team are archers camping on one roof while everyone in other team is melee no shield is more fun than playing the most recent maps made by Chagan Arslan, aka The Beach and Wicker Donkey maps.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: killnaboy on August 19, 2012, 03:50:00 pm
and roofcamping cause of ladders was mainly a 'problem' in battle right? I don't see it as a problem in siege. Roofcamping in siege is just useless. in siege you need people at the flag not on a roof somewhere else in the map!
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Rebelyell on August 19, 2012, 03:51:16 pm
buff hybrids, superold ladder system witch ladertowers,

I want that back
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Kafein on August 19, 2012, 04:17:15 pm
I never thought it was an objective fact. You claimed it was unfun for everybody.

And clever tactics, avoiding the spot where they can fire, so they either need to be useless or abandon their camping spot advantage are some things that were actually done in battle.

Nobody is forcing you to stand in the arrow rain.

That's right I said everybody.

But asking someone to be useless in battle is equally ridiculous. Archers/xbows on roofs will never abandon their camping spot. The only thing that can make them move are the MOTF flags. Horsemen roaming near a map corner doing nothing can't do anything against archers in plains either. Cav is only useful when there is a soaking force attracting the attention of the enemy. That doesn't happen anymore after a few minutes of battle

Ranged camping spots create a critical gameplay problem. The team having these actually forces the other team to fight in the arrow rain, because they also have brains and will stay close to their gatlings. The objective of battle mode is killing the enemy and to do that you are indeed forced into the arrowstorm.


What you would get if both teams were comprised of 100% serious play to win people is two camps far away from each other until the flags spawn. What actually happened was the team with the inferior spawn rushing to death to skip the map as fast as possible.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: sF_Guardian on August 19, 2012, 04:20:13 pm
I think lower weight 0 slot ladders would solve some of the battle probs, Archers could not even carry them cause their inventory is full anyway...
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Rebelyell on August 19, 2012, 04:25:20 pm
I think lower weight 0 slot ladders would solve some of the battle probs, Archers could not even carry them cause their inventory is full anyway...
yea everyone complain then archers spam them.... but thats not true.

I want to be able built catapult , siege tower, weapon rack like in old days without upkeap,

why?

simply fun and maybe some ways of gameplay,
lets make new class!!!
enginer!....
wait ITS time fir my brainfart suggestion corner!!!
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Rhekimos on August 19, 2012, 04:30:03 pm
A better solution for kiting would be to lessen the huge close range damage. (Without killing their effectiveness farther away.)

This way running after archers wouldn't be a one or two shot death, and the pursuers would get a lot more chances at catching the running archer.

And if you just can't catch the runner, why are you going after him in the first place? Leave it to someone else.

But asking someone to be useless in battle is equally ridiculous. Archers/xbows on roofs will never abandon their camping spot. The only thing that can make them move are the MOTF flags. Horsemen roaming near a map corner doing nothing can't do anything against archers in plains either. Cav is only useful when there is a soaking force attracting the attention of the enemy. That doesn't happen anymore after a few minutes of battle

You aren't asking someone to be useless. You should force the campers to be useless or abandon their advantage. They sure won't do it voluntarily.

And the MOTF indeed is a blessing when dealing with hung up situations like that.

Quote
Ranged camping spots create a critical gameplay problem. The team having these actually forces the other team to fight in the arrow rain, because they also have brains and will stay close to their gatlings. The objective of battle mode is killing the enemy and to do that you are indeed forced into the arrowstorm.

So, there's a situation where you desperately want to push inside enemy lines and out of the arrow rain. And the camping enemy wants to keep that from happening. If you want to win, solve the tactical problem. Or just camp yourself, some patience can bring victory as well.

Maybe a few ladders on your side might help this situation too, for some flanking goodness.

Quote
What you would get if both teams were comprised of 100% serious play to win people is two camps far away from each other until the flags spawn. What actually happened was the team with the inferior spawn rushing to death to skip the map as fast as possible.

So, people quit rather than play the game and deal with the problem.

Why are tactics dead in cRPG?

Is it because we pander to these people who won't even try?


Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Toodles on August 19, 2012, 04:50:25 pm
[EU 1]

I'll say this : the current maps are VERY boring. Now I understand that quite a few of them try to strike a compromise in terms of 'fun' for different classes by being semi open 'town' maps - such as the one with a pool and carpets - but the fact is there is literally NOTHING interesting about a map in which the enemy comes from ONE or TWO WAYS.

Playing on some of the more dense maps only months ago, turning a corner and encountering THE ENTIRE ENEMY MOB was EXCITING, right now I can tell the actions of the enemy from the first seconds, simply by looking at their spawn if in sight OR predicting the way they'll come by asking myself "Did they win the last round? If yes, will come same way - If not, were they beat severely enough to go different way?". Unpredictability creates EXCITEMENT. Unpredictability forces us to RELY on one another.

When two opposing mobs utterly oblivious to one another turn a corner and come face to face full speed it makes for intense battles that we'd never have otherwise, not to mention that loners CAN have fun AND be effective on such maps.

Maps with many routes : fun!
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Babelfish on August 19, 2012, 05:06:55 pm
There is a reason ladders were removed from battle and siege, they fucked up the gameplay.

People claiming ladders were fine at siege, forgets that it was possible to create ladders from spawn directly to the flag, skipping walls and enemies....
 That for sure where fun, right?


Short movie on why ladders (& pandor :P) sucks.

(Cotra, stop going through my post history...)
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Teeth on August 19, 2012, 05:16:36 pm
Tbh the only thing wrong with that is the kiting part. Archers should have incentives in fighting whoever comes close to them with a melee weapon instead of running.
Nope, because they have to bodkin stacks, peasant gear and a hammer, they have no incentive to fight. All the things I mentioned should be made impossible so they won't always pussy out and run. When I tell archers to stop kiting, they reply that they can't fight with a hammer and no armor against 2h wielding tincans. Yet they can make a pretty fine melee hybrid, but they choose not to. They have no reason to cause kiting works.

Basically buff their melee power without reducing their ranged power and disable them from reaching sprint speed when they hold a bow. Kiting fixed, archers will stand and fight. Bam, game is better. Well, atleast kiting is fixed to the extent that they can't runturnshoot anymore and have to switch weapons to run.

Just buffing melee power of archers will not lead anyone to stop kiting, they will just convert some more points to archery and keep running around with a hammer. 18/21 archers go 18/24 at higher levels to get 1 more athletics and 8 more points in archery, while they could get 6 ps.

Punish pure archery, encourage hybrid archery. Consistent kiting and crossfiring is horrible and fun for no one and should be removed.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Rhekimos on August 19, 2012, 05:17:58 pm
People claiming ladders were fine at siege, forgets that it was possible to create ladders from spawn directly to the flag, skipping walls and enemies....

In the latest Strat battles, the Greys (or co) were able to put smaller ladders on top of siege ladders once. So that kind of glitching is not completely eliminated, but the devs removed the ridiculous skyladdering ability rather well otherwise.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Teeth on August 19, 2012, 05:19:39 pm
In the latest Strat battles, the Greys (or co) were able to put smaller ladders on top of siege ladders once. So that kind of glitching is not completely eliminated, but the devs removed the ridiculous skyladdering ability rather well otherwise.
Disabling skyladdering did nothing to stop ladder pathways to the flag. The only way to ever defend a castle whenever HRE was on, was to camp the flag. Instead of the multiple stage defense we have now.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Rhekimos on August 19, 2012, 05:22:45 pm
Disabling skyladdering did nothing to stop ladder pathways to the flag. The only way to ever defend a castle whenever HRE was on, was to camp the flag. Instead of the multiple stage defense we have now.

Without glitching, multiple pathways to the flag can be unpredictable and exciting, fun.

A sky ladder from attacker spawn to the flag isn't.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Teeth on August 19, 2012, 05:33:59 pm
Without glitching, multiple pathways to the flag can be unreachable and overpowered, lame.
Fixed
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Rhekimos on August 19, 2012, 05:38:09 pm
Fixed

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Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Elmuri on August 19, 2012, 05:39:27 pm
Ladderspamming can be easily avoided in siege if you just limit the number of ladders by player or by team. Nowadays many siege maps are just idiotic: either you hit some stupid gate for minutes and wait for archers to shoot you, or charge up some of the few laddres and hope that theres no maulergang waiting for you. I might be wrong, because I haven't played much siege after the removal of ladders, but when I've played, I have got bored very quickly.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Idzo on August 19, 2012, 05:46:47 pm
maulergang waiting for you.


That would be me.  :mrgreen:

Fun  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Kafein on August 19, 2012, 05:50:36 pm
A better solution for kiting would be to lessen the huge close range damage. (Without killing their effectiveness farther away.)

This way running after archers wouldn't be a one or two shot death, and the pursuers would get a lot more chances at catching the running archer.

And if you just can't catch the runner, why are you going after him in the first place? Leave it to someone else.

That leads to the same kind of problems as with camping. Someone will have to kill that guy.

So, there's a situation where you desperately want to push inside enemy lines and out of the arrow rain. And the camping enemy wants to keep that from happening. If you want to win, solve the tactical problem. Or just camp yourself, some patience can bring victory as well.

Nice words. But words don't magically solve problems.


So, people quit rather than play the game and deal with the problem.

Why are tactics dead in cRPG?

Is it because we pander to these people who won't even try?

You shouldn't reverse things. We play games because we want to have a fun time, not the other way around.

You can't blame the players for doing what they do, and since you cannot change the behavior of players, it's the game that needs to be changed accordingly to what the players make of it.

Situations when both teams camp are the absolute worst moments in this game. It's very understandable players try to get away from these situations by the most effective means since there is no fun and no xp/gold to be made.

Also, "tactics" does not equal "testing which team will be bored first".



For me, the best thing that can happen to battle mode to fix all the camping is changing the gamemode's objective. The goal shouldn't be killing the other team, I think it should be much closer to something like a conquest mode.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Rhekimos on August 19, 2012, 06:08:35 pm
For me, the best thing that can happen to battle mode to fix all the camping is changing the gamemode's objective. The goal shouldn't be killing the other team, I think it should be much closer to something like a conquest mode.

I'm a fan of objective based teamwork games, so I'll agree.

But I don't think camping is that bad. It's a valid game decision if the perceived advantage of the enemy team is simply too large at that time.

Having to keep your multi used to be a good reason for the winning team to charge, but MOTF largely took that incentive away.

And it's very much up to the game to reward certain behaviors, the game in fact has all the power, as long as the player wants score/xp/gold/wins and isn't there to simply grief.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Lizard_man on August 19, 2012, 08:22:09 pm
Ladders would be fine in siege, and there were times in battle when they were fun. But in the end it only caused frustration. I don't want to see ladders in battle again, especially now with the huge increase of ranged players...
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Miley on August 19, 2012, 08:32:14 pm
Seriously... it's like "enjoy this rooftop/etc while you can because it's going to be blocked soon."
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Arathian on August 19, 2012, 08:52:35 pm
My take on this:

The main problem with the modern maps is not "herp derp they don't have glitches!" but that they are all the same, ie: open field/some village in which you walk to the opposite side until you reach the guys in the middle/bottleneck and whomever has the most force will win. Fin. No chance for tactics or anything like that.

In the meantime, maps like that map where there is a village and a tower in the middle that everyone fought over were removed because they were "unbalanced". Or that mine map where you could defend a room if you were severely handicapped.

Maps that aren't "we will clash somewhere in the middle" get instantly removed. WHY?? They are fun! Yes, some might exploit them, but mini-sieges are god damn fun. Seriously people.

And not even only these mini-sieges, many more map types could be made that are fun, probably not as perfectly balanced but still fun. Why don't we have an arena map? Why aren't there maps with hazards? Why can't we have a map where bots spawn trying to kill both sides?

Why did the maps grew so boring? It is a freeking game, perfect 100% never-changing balance is not bloody needed, gosh.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Rage_Guy on August 20, 2012, 08:52:10 am
I think maps from spring 2011 were the best.
Also:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Lord_Craton on August 22, 2012, 07:51:37 pm
Ladderpulting. Good old times...
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Arathian on August 23, 2012, 12:42:55 am
Ladderpulting. Good old times...
Fun times, fun times :3
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Kirbies on August 23, 2012, 02:14:24 am
Allow seige equipment  :twisted:
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on August 23, 2012, 03:35:28 pm
if we had only random plains we wouldnt need ladder anymore
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Tzar on August 23, 2012, 03:42:58 pm
Removal of ladders is one a the few changes that made sense and at least for the majority has improved the gameplay.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on August 23, 2012, 03:48:00 pm
Well in every game you have different player types. The ones that go for frags only, the guys that just wanna have fun and bullshit around in most situation, the "realists", etc.
You cant satisfy everyone.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Zisa on August 23, 2012, 05:42:33 pm
Ladders were great.
The fuckwads who'd break them after climbing up where not. Ya you, you know who you are, the master strategists who think it was 'revolutionary', when every asshole who's ever seen a ladder certainly had that idea immediately. If you can't admit it was shit, or the endless fucking rule lawyering concerning when you should come down then you are indeed an imbecile.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Gravoth_iii on August 23, 2012, 05:52:46 pm
People think things were so great before, but if they re-add ladders and remove forcefields the roofcamping archer whine will return. I never had any problem with roof camping and stuff like that but there is a reason why everything is getting "fixed".
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Lord_Craton on August 24, 2012, 12:29:41 am
Maybe only ladders for siege??
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: duurrr on August 24, 2012, 01:11:31 am
yea last add ladders back in

also make the game tab target please
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Rextard on August 24, 2012, 02:37:38 am
I miss ladders, but a lot of people did use them as instruments of grief.

Is there be any way to change ladders for siege/battle so that: - the team who put up a ladder could lower or raise it if within range, but would be unable to damage it or move it once set?
                                                                             -the opposing team couldn't lower or raise the ladder, but as long as it's raised could damage it?
                                                                             -with the caveat that the opposing team can raise (and only raise) lowered enemy ladders if only 1 enemy was still alive?
                                                                             - a ladder counter to prevent more than x amount of ladders being spawned by either team on a given map any round?

Not friggin likely I know, but pipedreams are better than none. Those conditions would also prevent most of the glamery that ladders used to bring, no?  :|
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Zerran on August 24, 2012, 05:34:30 am
In an ideal setting, with no fucktards and trolls, ladders are an amazing addition to the game. Unfortunately, this mod has one or two trolls (>_>)

On the one side you've got the asshats that run up a ladder and then break it so no one can reach them. Then on the other hand, you have the douches that break the ladder from the bottom so the people at the top have to come down (honestly I found this to be even more annoying than the former). You can't make ladders unbreakable (not even going to bother explaining that one), so what do you do other than just remove them to avoid people using them for super gayness?

Also,

(click to show/hide)

The sheer amount of these on these forums is mind boggling.  :lol:
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Lord_Craton on August 25, 2012, 05:47:49 pm
In an ideal setting, with no fucktards and trolls, ladders are an amazing addition to the game. Unfortunately, this mod has one or two trolls (>_>)

On the one side you've got the asshats that run up a ladder and then break it so no one can reach them. Then on the other hand, you have the douches that break the ladder from the bottom so the people at the top have to come down (honestly I found this to be even more annoying than the former). You can't make ladders unbreakable (not even going to bother explaining that one), so what do you do other than just remove them to avoid people using them for super gayness?

Also,

(click to show/hide)

The sheer amount of these on these forums is mind boggling.  :lol:

You forgot the guys who dont pay attention to the battles or sieges and make a skyladder to heaven.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Turkhammer on August 25, 2012, 05:56:02 pm
Ladders were great.
The fuckwads who'd break them after climbing up where not. Ya you, you know who you are, the master strategists who think it was 'revolutionary', when every asshole who's ever seen a ladder certainly had that idea immediately. If you can't admit it was shit, or the endless fucking rule lawyering concerning when you should come down then you are indeed an imbecile.

MOTF takes care of all that.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Kafein on August 25, 2012, 07:41:26 pm
Actually, I wouldn't mind ladders in battle if ladderuristing was back too. That was fun for everybody, not just the people in god mode on the roof.
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Quinnie on August 25, 2012, 08:05:20 pm
Ladders make the world go 'round. So do trolls.
I support ladders and trolls. I also support fun!
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Lord_Craton on August 25, 2012, 10:12:12 pm
Ladders make the world go 'round. So do trolls.
I support ladders and trolls. I also support fun!

Exactly!
Title: Re: Fun
Post by: Arrowblood on August 25, 2012, 10:20:17 pm
ALL I WANT IS THIS :
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