cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: darmaster on August 14, 2012, 04:16:29 pm

Title: getting crazy :l
Post by: darmaster on August 14, 2012, 04:16:29 pm
i can swear on whatever you want i didn't 1shot 2 archers (i was 10 mt distant), but robin hood had 1shot me with an arrow and i have a Heavy Crossbow with Steel Bolts and 158 wpf on xbow.. seriously guys i know you are a group of fascist-conservative people but at least admitt it: archers are fucking OP.. even with a shield i have to be scared because they do a fucking idiot movement and they shoot me.. most of you maybe don't mean this because they play on EU_cRPG_1 , but if you'd just go on EU_cRPG_4 you could see it with your eyes: seriously please do something cause this is getting pretty annoying. the archers i hit were robin hood and red war (that does a huge number of headshots (i'm not saying he cheats)). imo they should nerf the damage by 15-20% and put something that doesn't allow them to do that "overshield-shot" like a low acceleration or something like that don't know. thanks for reading P:
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: Meow on August 14, 2012, 04:26:44 pm
What level are you?
What is your build?
What armor do you use?
Were you moving towards the archer when you got hit?
What bow and arrows did he use?
Did he use heirloomed gear (bow/arrows)?
What level was he?
What was his build?

WPF does not influence crossbow damage btw.

Do you have any proof of that guy cheating or are you just randomly accusing people because you got killed?
Sorry, misread that "I'm not saying he cheats" part.

Edit: Fixed "typo" and later a "reado" :wink:
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: Oberyn on August 14, 2012, 04:28:02 pm
EU 4 always seems to be a few versions behind EU 1 anyways. Frigging polestagger still works there.
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: isatis on August 14, 2012, 04:28:24 pm
RESPOND NOW!!!

(good question Meow love those...)

seriously post more info Noaw!
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: darmaster on August 14, 2012, 04:42:22 pm
What level are you?  25
What is your build? 12-22 right now
What armor do you use? turkish robe yes very low armor
Were you moving towards the archer when you got hit? no was recharging xbow
What bow and arrows did he use? mw TATAR and mw rus bow (probably MW)
Did he use heirloomed gear (bow/arrows)? yes
What level was he? probalby 34
What was his build? 18 27 if i'm not wrong

the problem is that a heavy crossbow (not the hunting) doesn't 1shot archers (that weren't wearing such good body armor (neither was i ofc and that's why i got 1 shot)). and there's still another problem: the overshield-shot.

i didn't say he cheats, i just typed it cause i noticed it was really easy for him doing headshots (2-3 headshots per round seriously and the other shots were aiming to the head), and probably for all the other archers if they would aim a bit upper.

so the problem is not really that they 1shot me (cause as you can see i have 15 body armor with 47 hp) but I didn't with a 69+6 PIERCE damage from 10 mt.
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: Miwiw on August 14, 2012, 04:46:03 pm
Crossbows are supposed to 1hit if you hit the enemies' head. If not, they are not. usually. dont forget its pierce dmg.
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: darmaster on August 14, 2012, 04:55:36 pm
i repeat the problem is not ONLY that they 1 shot me (they usually 2-3 shot even if i have good bodyarmor and IF that's why i said nerf by 15% the damage) but there are many other things: they have an almost perfect aim, they do too much damage and they ofc run wherever they want because they have 7 ath or more and they're light; over 31 the archer becomes seriously OP, there's a huge difference between an archer at 28 and an archer at 34 but not such a big difference between a two hander at 28 and a 2h at 34. as i said imo archers need to be balanced.
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: FleetFox on August 14, 2012, 04:57:13 pm
What level are you?  25
What is your build? 12-22 right now
What armor do you use? turkish robe yes very low armor
Were you moving towards the archer when you got hit? no was recharging xbow
What bow and arrows did he use? mw TATAR and mw rus bow (probably MW)
Did he use heirloomed gear (bow/arrows)? yes
What level was he? probalby 34
What was his build? 18 27 if i'm not wrong

the problem is that a heavy crossbow (not the hunting) doesn't 1shot archers (that weren't wearing such good body armor (neither was i ofc and that's why i got 1 shot)). and there's still another problem: the overshield-shot.

i didn't say he cheats, i just typed it cause i noticed it was really easy for him doing headshots (2-3 headshots per round seriously and the other shots were aiming to the head), and probably for all the other archers if they would aim a bit upper.

so the problem is not really that they 1shot me (cause as you can see i have 15 body armor with 47 hp) but I didn't with a 69+6 PIERCE damage from 10 mt.

Robin will have used MW Bodkins :D
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: darmaster on August 14, 2012, 04:58:45 pm
no he doesn't use them anymore i'm sure..
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: MrShine on August 14, 2012, 04:59:09 pm
So let's review:

you have 12 strength,
are under level 25,
and are using light armor

you believe the archer who shot you is high level with MW equipment

you're upset that you got 1 shot while you didn't 1 shot the archer with your heavy xbow

...

I'm waiting for the part where something crazy happened.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: [ptx] on August 14, 2012, 05:02:04 pm
Loomed high damage CUT arrows with a MW high damage bow vs very, very light armor and low str/low level, one shot? What were you expecting?
In other news, i occasionally get 1shot by arbs at lvl30, when moving towards them in medium armor/light armor with balanced builds.
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: darmaster on August 14, 2012, 05:07:34 pm
So let's review:

you have 12 strength,
are under level 25,
and are using light armor

you believe the archer who shot you is high level with MW equipment

you're upset that you got 1 shot while you didn't 1 shot the archer with your heavy xbow

...

I'm waiting for the part where something crazy happened.

(click to show/hide)



hmm let's say you read the rest and modify your review :) i didn't say the problem is that they 1shot me (even if they do too much damage) the problem is that i didn't 1shot them. second even with a shield i have serious problem killing them because there's a stupid movement which gets me 2 shot. third they can run wherever they want. please read the other parts than you can type your reviews
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: Radament on August 14, 2012, 05:08:14 pm
so...i just used the archery calc some druzhina guy did and the result is = 1 hit to death ( 56.3 ---> 61.2 )

try yourself http://alpha-lider19.ru/MB/?go=archercalc (http://alpha-lider19.ru/MB/?go=archercalc)

i just think lvl 35 build is op , not archers in general.
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: Meow on August 14, 2012, 05:09:32 pm
Well, damage wise with an 18str build even without IF he would be able to survive a shot at around 29 body armor (body+gloves) if you hit the body and not the arms, I figure he had better armor than that.

Also against your low armor Tatar arrows potentially deal more damage than bodkins.

Due to the high randomness in the damage calculation it's always hard to say if something was an extreme case or not, this looks pretty normal and doesn't sound like anything that would be a reason for an archer nerf.
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: MrShine on August 14, 2012, 05:16:25 pm


hmm let's say you read the rest and modify your review :) i didn't say the problem is that they 1shot me (even if they do too much damage) the problem is that i didn't 1shot them. second even with a shield i have serious problem killing them because there's a stupid movement which gets me 2 shot. third they can run wherever they want. please read the other parts than you can type your reviews

I did read the rest of your post, and I find your argument lacking.  You're comparing a 12 strength peasant in light armor to a high level archer with MW equipment, and then calling for substantial nerfs to a game that you don't seem to have a good grasp on.   As you play longer and get closer to 30/flesh out a better build with more hp you'll find that people rarely get 1 shot by range of any kind unless it's a headshot.  2 shots for the stronger weapons (like your heavy crossbow) are much more frequent, and archers tend to kill in 2-6 body shots depending on the bow, build, hp & armor of the target, arrows, MW equipment, etc.
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: peter_afca7 on August 14, 2012, 05:24:17 pm
ROBINHOOD is bullshit and he will always be
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: sF_Guardian on August 14, 2012, 05:31:21 pm
Remember that Crossbows dont get PD bonus so its completely normal that they dont do that much dmg.
Your arguments are not well thought out man...
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: darmaster on August 14, 2012, 05:41:27 pm
Loomed high damage CUT arrows with a MW high damage bow vs very, very light armor and low str/low level, one shot? What were you expecting?
In other news, i occasionally get 1shot by arbs at lvl30, when moving towards them in medium armor/light armor with balanced builds.
guys ofc you're right if you read just a single fucking part of the thread :) be fair and read the rest
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: Plavor on August 14, 2012, 05:43:04 pm
Pygar is mad.

Robinhood is a really good archer with mw equipment.

I understand that darmaster is really frustrated because he can't oneshot with a heavy crossbow an archer that supposed to be dead after one shot since he has no IF, very light armor and was static.

On the other side, even I often can't oneshot a peasant with white tunic + leather gloves ( lv 1 ) with a MW Arbalest + MW Steel Bolts while archers using MW Rusbow + MW Bodkins can :) (medium distance)

IMO, crossbows are fine as they are right now. They don't supposed to oneshot everything living on earth. They are not as good as archers against peasants but they are more effective against heavier armor since they have pierce damage.   

Also I think that archers are fine, but many players complaining about the damage that archers deal even though they have a really really high firerate compared to an arbalest or heavy crossbow and they are also very accurate, not pinpoint accurate as crossbows told to be but still.

Example :   Lv. 30         21/18 Infantry with Lordly Light Kuyak and Lordly Wisby Gauntlets + Lorldy Vaegir War Mask + 5 IF  -- he is static, no speedbonus -- +100% Skill for being a Warmask-Kuyak-2h-Hero
                 
                 Bodyshot test:

                 Crossbowman with MW Arbalest + MW Steel Bolts             --------   Needs always 2 shots for this infantry although the damage of the first shot is really randomly
                 Archer with MW Rus Bow + MW Bodkin Arrows 18/21 6 PD --------  Needs 2-4 shots for this infantry although damage is also really random but the archer is a lot faster with killing than the Xbowman

                 Headshot test :

Same scenario again but :         Crossbowman ---- Always oneshot the Infantry
                                                   Archer            ----- Don't ask me why but its really random, sometimes he needs one somtimes two arrows :) , but mostly two.


All in all, balance seems legit.
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: Lichen on August 14, 2012, 05:43:46 pm
What level are you?  25
What is your build? 12-22 right now
What armor do you use? turkish robe yes very low armor


robin hood had 1shot me with an arrow
NO WAY!!!!!!! For serious?
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: darmaster on August 14, 2012, 05:45:17 pm
Remember that Crossbows dont get PD bonus so its completely normal that they dont do that much dmg.
Your arguments are not well thought out man...

it's normal that they don't do much damage? i can read by the site that it is written 75 pierce damage.. i thought 75 PIERCE could 1 shot an archer but it doesn't look like: so my question is: xbow doesn't get PD bonus, it's slow, it doesn't 1shot an archer, it should be buffed. archer 2 shots everyone (with 40 body armor or 10 body armor), it's fast, it has many shots (35 usually), does much damage, can run away if followed because they don't have to recharge, and gets PD bonus: it should be nerfed (imo). and don't forget about the strange movement.
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: sF_Guardian on August 14, 2012, 05:50:16 pm
it's normal that they don't do much damage? i can read by the site that it is written 75 pierce damage.. i thought 75 PIERCE could 1 shot an archer but it doesn't look like: so my question is: xbow doesn't get PD bonus, it's slow, it doesn't 1shot an archer, it should be buffed. archer 2 shots everyone (with 40 body armor or 10 body armor), it's fast, it has many shots (35 usually), does much damage and gets PD bonus: it should be nerfed. and don't forget about the strange movement

Just imagine 2 hits with a Morningstar with 0ps, then u have ur crossbow... :D
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: darmaster on August 14, 2012, 05:55:00 pm
Just imagine 2 hits with a Morningstar with 0ps, then u have ur crossbow... :D

yes a hunting crossbow yes you're right C: oh now wait except you have to recharge and while you're doing that you have to holdstill C:§
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: Tzar on August 14, 2012, 05:57:52 pm
Hey and welcome to cRPG noob edition plz go to our weapon depot and pick up your mw hornbow an mw bodkin arrows an proceed to go inf zombie hunting.

Have a good day sir.

Also eu4 is a barrel an your the fish
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: Meow on August 14, 2012, 06:05:03 pm
The obvious advantage of crossbows is that you do not need to invest any skillpoints into it but only need the required str and as much wpf as you like accuracy wise.

That makes crossbows a great weapon to melee hybrid with, even pure arbalest chars seem to work fine.

X-Bows are not supposed to be better bows, they feature way different gameplay and even at 10PD and an 160wpf a long bow with bodkins does not hit the damage of an arbalest with steel bolts while it has worse accuracy and can't hold the shot at max accuracy BUT it gets a higher rate of fire and with that better overall DPS.

If you reload your crossbow in the open without cover between you and the archer, the archer is supposed to win that which is why you usually go behind cover to reload.
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: darmaster on August 14, 2012, 06:22:09 pm

X-Bows are not supposed to be better bows, they feature way different gameplay and even at 10PD and an 160wpf a long bow with bodkins does not hit the damage of an arbalest with steel bolts while it has worse accuracy and can't hold the shot at max accuracy BUT it gets a higher rate of fire and with that better overall DPS.

not sure about that
you say it doesn't do the same damage but i did a test on the duel server and i can assure you that with an archer level 30 (18 str 21 agi 6 pd 163 wpf) and NOTHING loomed i 3 shot radament. the problem is that with the same xbower and a heavy xbow i still 3 shot him; then you say that a xbower doesn't get PD bonus or wpf damage bonus that means the damage won't grow anymore, while the archer can surely do more damage. the problem are not the xbowers that seem fair to me, but the archers that do just a little too much damage (just 15% less damage needed imo) and that strange movement (i don't mean why, as a shielder, i should be scared by an archer that is 1 mt distant from me): it doesn't look like a great request.
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: Fartface on August 14, 2012, 06:25:55 pm
Sure why not , there is always room for one more archer nerf :rolleyes:
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: Ad1no on August 14, 2012, 06:27:50 pm
save crpg

nerf ranged NOW
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: darmaster on August 14, 2012, 06:35:38 pm
You went to archers playground aka EU4, where archers outnumber melee 3:1, and you say they are OP?

hmm wut? have you read the other things or just the first line?
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: darmaster on August 14, 2012, 06:46:38 pm
What's not clear?

On eu4 there are three times more ranged than eu1.

EU4 has archers who play only on that server, because there are a lot of melee guys who will chase them and die.

EU4 is not a good balance indicator.

you should say that on eu 1 there are too many people and you can't see the balance problems, cause you get  always ganked or shot by ranged or killed by horses or whatever.. so you don't look at things carefully so imo EU1 is not that good balance indicator.. on that server the single can't show up himself and you can't see if he has just skill or there's something wrong in his class or both them..
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: Lichen on August 14, 2012, 06:49:14 pm
nerf ranged NOW
No, not yet. Work for your nerf. More crying needed IMO.
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: Meow on August 14, 2012, 06:51:55 pm
not sure about that
you say it doesn't do the same damage but i did a test on the duel server and i can assure you that with an archer level 30 (18 str 21 agi 6 pd 163 wpf) and NOTHING loomed i 3 shot radament. the problem is that with the same xbower and a heavy xbow i still 3 shot him; then you say that a xbower doesn't get PD bonus or wpf damage bonus that means the damage won't grow anymore, while the archer can surely do more damage. the problem are not the xbowers that seem fair to me, but the archers that do just a little too much damage (just 15% less damage needed imo) and that strange movement (i don't mean why, as a shielder, i should be scared by an archer that is 1 mt distant from me): it doesn't look like a great request.

So you do want xbows to do more more dps than bows while not requiring and skill but only wpf and str?
No.
That would be horrible balancing wise.

How often did you do that damage test with each weapon?
What bow and arrows did you use?
Against what armor and hp and at what distance?

Cause overall it seems you like you are missing the difference between crossbows and bows and want bows nerfed because you don't play smart against archers.
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: Miley on August 14, 2012, 06:54:24 pm
Archery is not OP. There is no "over shield" shots that archery can do that crossbows cannot, and I doubt you were one shotted wearing any armor of significant armor value.

(At least on NA)
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: sF_Guardian on August 14, 2012, 07:04:55 pm
yes a hunting crossbow yes you're right C: oh now wait except you have to recharge and while you're doing that you have to holdstill C:§

Are you dumb? Morningstar= 38 pierce, 2 hits with 0ps and 100wpf= 74 pierce (in theory, no bonuses, armors and stuff taken into account)
So just use ur imagination, do 2 hits with 0ps of a Morningstar kill those archers? No. and your X-Bow doesnt aswell.
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: Moncho on August 14, 2012, 07:10:13 pm
Another difference between EU 1-4 and crossbow-archery is that with the ammo you have, you can shoot for a much longer time with crossbows. That might be why in EU4 there are more archers (or they are more visible), simply because they can spam their arrows, or even go with just one stack, whereas in EU 1 archers run out of arrows quite early in the round if they spam them...
Also crossbows can be used to shotgun through shields, a pretty good bonus much easier to do than the get around and shoot method archers have...
Always archer vs crossbowman discussions remind me of this old thread (http://forum.meleegaming.com/game-balance-discussion/meet-the-archer-and-crossbowwoman!/), always a good laugh. It discusses nearly all there is, reminds you of the difference,
(click to show/hide)
.
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: darmaster on August 14, 2012, 07:12:21 pm
No.

Bigger number of people is always a better indicator of how well things work.


you should type the reasons.. i've already told you mine..
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: darmaster on August 14, 2012, 07:14:59 pm
So you do want xbows to do more more dps than bows while not requiring and skill but only wpf and str?
No.
That would be horrible balancing wise.

How often did you do that damage test with each weapon?
What bow and arrows did you use?
Against what armor and hp and at what distance?

Cause overall it seems you like you are missing the difference between crossbows and bows and want bows nerfed because you don't play smart against archers.

about the pure xbowers i agree, there are too many people going with xbow and 0 wpf but this is another problem that should be fixed (for example you need 120 wpf for the hunting bow 130 for the light and so on).

How often did you do that damage test with each weapon? think 3/4
What bow and arrows did you use? rus bow with boodkin nothing MW
Against what armor and hp and at what distance? sarranid guard armor and scale gauntlets don't know if mw or not
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: darmaster on August 14, 2012, 07:15:45 pm
Are you dumb? Morningstar= 38 pierce, 2 hits with 0ps and 100wpf= 74 pierce (in theory, no bonuses, armors and stuff taken into account)
So just use ur imagination, do 2 hits with 0ps of a Morningstar kill those archers? No. and your X-Bow doesnt aswell.

ye you're right sorry about that was quite dumb in that moment P:
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: darmaster on August 14, 2012, 07:16:25 pm
Archery is not OP. There is no "over shield" shots that archery can do that crossbows cannot, and I doubt you were one shotted wearing any armor of significant armor value.

(At least on NA)

ye and god created earth in 7 days
never said i was 1shot with significant body armor..
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: Meow on August 14, 2012, 07:18:04 pm
You know you can quote more than one post at a time so you don't have to post 4 times to answer to 4 different people... just saying.
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: darmaster on August 14, 2012, 07:24:55 pm
You know you can quote more than one post at a time so you don't have to post 4 times to answer to 4 different people... just saying.

lul yes but it would be a very long post :l
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: Rantrex on August 14, 2012, 07:46:28 pm
Huh, I feel
(...)even at 10PD and an 160wpf a long bow with bodkins does not hit the damage of an arbalest with steel bolts(...)
isn't  right...

After getting an arrow from longbow (i find there masterworks) I don't feel difffrent than getting a steel bolt from arbalest. (Ofc I find archery pretty fine. Archers are not impossible to get by 2 prepared players having plan)
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: Brutal on August 14, 2012, 07:54:40 pm
i can swear on whatever you want i didn't 1shot 2 archers (i was 10 mt distant), but robin hood had 1shot me with an arrow and i have a Heavy Crossbow with Steel Bolts and 158 wpf on xbow.
I throw my throwing lance at Anon with 8 PT and 140+ wpf he shoot at the same time, we both hit.

I'm dead (full health no head shot), he runs away  :lol:
Shot him in the foot though.
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: Turkhammer on August 14, 2012, 08:04:04 pm
What level are you?
What is your build?
What armor do you use?
Were you moving towards the archer when you got hit?
What bow and arrows did he use?
Did he use heirloomed gear (bow/arrows)?
What level was he?
What was his build?

WPF does not influence crossbow damage btw.

Do you have any proof of that guy cheating or are you just randomly accusing people because you got killed?

Edit: Fixed "typo".

Meow, to be fair, he did state he was not accusing him of cheating.
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: Meow on August 14, 2012, 08:09:03 pm
Meow, to be fair, he did state he was not accusing him of cheating.

Good you are bringing that up cause I read it on my notebook in the sun and totally read it as "I'm saying he cheats", else I would not have brought it up :P
Editing that.
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: Fartface on August 15, 2012, 12:21:49 pm
You can´t say anything yet, But you were low lvl xbowmen in light armour with an heavy xbow.
Once you reach lvl 30 , you can wear medium armour, have an arbalest , an mace or one hander. and you can still have 5 if 5ps .
As a xbower you´re way more multiversitaile ( hope me spelled correct) than an archer , you can engage combat and if you grab some 2h wpp you can even pick up an daish and be just as effective as an lvl 30 2hader with 15/24 ( ofcouse they got some more wpp or some other skill than WM). If a archer runs out of arrows He's pretty mutch worthless in comparison.
Title: Re: getting crazy :l
Post by: Mendro on August 15, 2012, 04:12:19 pm
Crossbow , archer ... same shit.
Time to buff throwers  :mrgreen: