cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: matt2507 on August 07, 2012, 04:32:17 pm

Title: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: matt2507 on August 07, 2012, 04:32:17 pm
Some time ago, archers and mounted archers swarmed on the servers.
So they had a nerf.

The problem now is that it has turned into invasion of crossbows.
Everyone has noticed their growing numbers.
And everyone found them easier to use.

I'm pretty sure, every melee has one in his inventory.

Any level of difficulty required except force.
Knowing that the first three are, respectively, 6 - 7 - 10 of difficulty, a full force or full agi can use whenever he wants.

The only existing solution to solve this problem, add the PowerDraw as a difficulty !

The arbalestriers should then build builds similar to archers except for wpf.

So I imagined this:
(click to show/hide)

You will also notice the appearance of three new crossbows. They are here to answer to the second problem of the invasion: the mounted crossbows.

On a post of rage against the HX, I came across an interesting picture, I am interested in crossbows on horseback.
It turns out that to reload, they had to employ some mechanisms.
There were two mechanisms: the crowbar and the cranequin.

So I created the stats of three crossbows using these mechanisms.

What is interesting with these three new crossbows is that the range of choice becomes like that of the bows:

Hunting Crossbow - Short Bow
crowbar Crossbow - Bow
Light Crossbow - Nomad Bow
Cranequin Light Crossbow - Tatar Bow
Crossbow - Horn Bow
Cranequin Crossbow - Yumi
Heavy Crossbow - Rus Bow
Arbalest - Long Bow


I am not an expert in 3D modeling, but I could not present these three crossbows without models.
Such as crossbows are mechanical developments of existing, I simply removed the caliper, which is normally used for recharging by hand.
Which gives a small difference and a cool style  8-).

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

Brf containing animated models ready to use (mediafire) (http://www.mediafire.com/?adk7bjadcgazo4r)

I know people will not like what I did, maybe none of you, anyway, try to discuss it constructively and adult, thank you.
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: _Tak_ on August 07, 2012, 04:35:27 pm
The chance for bolts to break is much less than arrows, arrows often break pretty much every single round, and arbalest can 1/2 shot people no matter what armor they use, ofc people are now going for xbow...

go ahead and try the build like 47/3 or 15/30 (With 10 WM), you reload extremely fast like heavy crossbow and you can pretty much 1 shot anyone, if you shoot a tincan at close range he can lost like 90% of health (Using MW arbalest + MW steel bolt with 10 WM) Xbow is OP as it is, in battle people always think when they lose alot of health to ranged must be archer, but in fact they got shot by arbalesters...
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Silveredge on August 07, 2012, 04:43:55 pm
So you're suggesting to give the hx an even better crossbow than they have...

Right now they can only use a hunting crossbow or a light crossbow.  You have a cranequin crossbow, which is even better than the normal crossbow, which they cannot currently use.  But with your explanation, the hx's will be able to use all cranequin crossbows.  The light crossbow damage is 46, your new cranequin crossbow is 60.  Stealth hx buff?  No thank you.
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: matt2507 on August 07, 2012, 04:44:03 pm
if crossbow difficulty is based on power draw then every ranged will just go xbow, because wiht PD 6+++ you can 1 shot anyone with arbalest

any ranged can already take an arbalest and one shot anyone.

I have not done this for nerf or buff a particular class.
I did this because each class must specialize, whether it's archer, Shielder, thrower, etc.., and only those damn Xbow we do not need specialization.

So you're suggesting to give the hx an even better crossbow than they have...

Right now they can only use a hunting crossbow or a light crossbow.  You have a cranequin crossbow, which is even better than the normal crossbow, which they cannot currently use.  But with your explanation, the hx's will be able to use all cranequin crossbows.  The light crossbow damage is 46, your new cranequin crossbow is 60.  Stealth hx buff?  No thank you.

This is an example of stats, it's the devs who choose, not me.
it may take only the first 2 if they wish.

And look at the stats, the damage is increased but there are also disadvantages.
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Molly on August 07, 2012, 04:47:23 pm
The high tier bows take 50% hp per body hit too. Just saying...
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: _Tak_ on August 07, 2012, 04:53:13 pm
The high tier bows take 50% hp per body hit too. Just saying...

mostly all archers wear very light gear due to the fact they need more accuracy and can die from 1 bolt to MW heavy crossbow/ arbalest. Crossbow accuracy is very accurate

any ranged can already take an arbalest and one shot anyone.

I played arbalester for few gens too, it doesn't always 1 shot anyone, it can if you shoot them really really close + speed bonus (Still it depend on the person's HP and armor) , but arbalest is very deadly still, you can 2 shot an tincan. Try that build with 15/30. No ath with 10 WM, your chance to 1 shot people largely increase , most fun build i ever played with MW arbalest + MW steel bolts

I also know str affect crossbow 's damage, so try very high str with arbalest you can 1 shot people too. If you don't mind about upkeep use this one: 47/3, accuracy is low, but you can actually 1 shot most people
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Strudog on August 07, 2012, 04:53:59 pm
Quote
any ranged can already take an arbalest and one shot anyone.

Are you stupid?

I have been using an Arbalest for 6 gens and would say i am not too bad with it, i have stopped going arbalest because it is less useful than a bow, it does not one shot people (maybe peasants wearing robes but sometimes not). They have a huge disadvantage in a 1v1 duel against archers as it dosent 1 hit archers at all (maybe when face to Face). If you are a Normal 2 hander it only takes half the health.

So you 2 hander heroes can jog on if you want any crossbow to be nerfed before those stupid 2h lol stabs and feints

Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: matt2507 on August 07, 2012, 05:00:43 pm
no I'm not stupid, what I find stupid is a Paysant lvl14 can make the same thing as what you just said simply while having all its points in strength.
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Strudog on August 07, 2012, 05:12:49 pm
you have to be accurate with the arbalest, long reload time, a lvl 14 can indeed wield an arbalest, but it would still be the same if you added PD, makes no difference. And he would be very inaccuarate

i want you to go and play a gen of Arbalest and then rethink.

Every class has there strengths, with the Arbalest it is the damage, and also has its weakness, reload time.

Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Blackbow on August 07, 2012, 05:19:05 pm
i can just agree
xbow is so easy mode ....

when somethime i can see some guys reloading as same speed as a bow that make me crazy
the first xbow (hunting crossbow) should be slower to reload than every bow ....
http://youtu.be/HagCuGXJgUs

they have no point to spend in any special skills ...
imo if u are bored to see archers run everywhere .... u should do like xbower and remove pd that could be allow archers to increase their melee skills ...

but imo the real solution is to add power draw to xbower just for make them spend some point and
to justify the huge damage, the range and accuracy of xbow,arba....

just small reminder a mw arba with mw still bolt can one shot ppl with 18 strengh and 45 bodies armor without aim for the head = easy mode

XBOW IS EASY MODE NERF IT !!!

im bored to see any redneck without skill be able to take any crossbow/arba and do huge damage wihout any point to spend...
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: BlackMilk on August 07, 2012, 05:28:05 pm
mostly all archers wear very light gear due to the fact they need more accuracy and can die from 1 bolt to MW heavy crossbow/ arbalest. Crossbow accuracy is very accurate
Ok so I got 15 str 0 if and 31 body armor. I never got oneshot by either MW Arbalest or MW Rus Bow. They both need 2 shots. And a Rus Bow user can shoot three arrows in the same time as a Arbalest user shoots one bolt.
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: matt2507 on August 07, 2012, 05:32:22 pm
you have to be accurate with the arbalest, long reload time, a lvl 14 can indeed wield an arbalest, but it would still be the same if you added PD, makes no difference. And he would be very inaccuarate

Indeed, with the PowerDraw, it may also take a crossbow.
But each point in powerdraw is one point less in powerstrike or weapon master, etc.

i want you to go and play a gen of Arbalest and then rethink.

I did some testing with my 2H and a skip the fun.
what is most impressive is with my 2H, bolts go all right they are as accurate as my archer lvl 25 with any wpf ...
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Blackbow on August 07, 2012, 05:34:10 pm
Ok so I got 15 str 0 if and 31 body armor. I never got oneshot by either MW Arbalest or MW Rus Bow. They both need 2 shots. And a Rus Bow user can shoot three arrows in the same time as a Arbalest user shoots one bolt.
BULLSHIT
i have 18 strengh 45 body armor (mw light strange armor+mw mail gauntlet) and i get one shot everyday by a mw arba
somethime those have no mw bolts

we did some test in battle there is no bonus speed
im static the mw arba shot me in body and get os

want a fraps proof ?
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on August 07, 2012, 05:52:06 pm
I think the bows should do more damage than the crossbow and lighter xbows.  A hand crank crossbow was about 1/2 to 1/3 as strong as some of the stronger bows of the era.  Even the Arbalest would have only done about the same damage as a Long bow, and it would have taken about as long as it does in game to reload with a crane-quin. 
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Zanze on August 07, 2012, 06:40:32 pm
At first, I read the stats and thought you were drop dead stupid for suggesting a STRONGER and more accurate crossbow for xbow-cav. Then I saw it required PD-6. Fine by me, once you remember to drop the stats on each and every crossbow to compensate for the PD bonus.

For others frame of reference, to get PD-6 you can't get HA 4+. Not being able to get HA 4+ means they might try a more balanced build, which means slower horses and crap accuracy. (Rohy, best xbow cav, uses a 7-30 build. He wouldn't be able to touch any of the higher end xbows.)
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Froto_the_Loc on August 07, 2012, 06:44:02 pm
I made this point not to long ago.
Do you know why you don't see any archer/melee hybrids? It's cause it eats wpf and points.
Same with throwing, but to a lesser degree.

The crossbow is there for the a good hybrid that doesn't chew up your melee stats/ranged wpf and spit it back into your face.
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: sF_Guardian on August 07, 2012, 06:50:12 pm
So much bullshit in here :/
IF you want to do that Crossbows would need a significant damage reduce (by stats) because of the Powerdraw
(Adds 14% dmg per point while PS adds 8% and PT 10%, thats why agi archers still do fuckin lots of dmg)

Besides that the suggested high-tier mounted crossbows are totally op, ways too much dmg and accuracy.

I dont like theese changes but if you adjust the dmg powerdraw for crossbows would be just fair.
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Zerran on August 07, 2012, 07:05:31 pm
Don't make xbows require a skill, that completely defeats their uniqueness compared to other ranged. Instead, make having very low wpf (0-50 or so) drastically reduce accuracy (wpf of 50+ should have the same accuracy it does now), so melee need to put some wpf in xbows if they want to use them.
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Torost on August 07, 2012, 07:40:01 pm
Crossbows fill the same function as Bows. Deliver damage from a distance.

Pros:
-More accurate
-Easier to aim, hold aim until perfect.
-Faster missilespeed(harder to dodge,less jediskills needed to predict the future)
-Hits harder
-Cheap upkeep compared to bows and arrows.
-Can be used by anyone at any level without making any sacrefices from a perfect meleebuild and gear.
-Can reload/"draw" in a safe and timely manner.(Animation also makes you a smaller target)

Cons:
-Slower rate of repeated fire.(A preloaded crossbow will be faster than any archer delivering the 1st shot).

 In 1139  Pope Innocent II  banned the use of crossbows against Christians.

Other than being very effective, I wonder why people think it is fun to play as crossbowman dedicated or hybrid.
Boring playstyle IMO , and boring to fight against aswell.
Shoot,hide,reload,shoot,hide,reload,shoot,hide,reload
when outa bolts or if enemy gets to close.
Start playing your perfect meleebuild.
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: sF_Guardian on August 07, 2012, 07:43:33 pm
Crossbowing is in no way boring, at least if you reach a certain amounth of maturity and patience.
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Zerran on August 07, 2012, 08:19:16 pm
Crossbowing is in no way boring, at least if you reach a certain amounth of maturity and patience.

Agreed. I quite enjoy using a crossbow, and I use the Heavy Crossbow, so it takes a little to reload.  :P
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Mr_Oujamaflip on August 07, 2012, 08:21:11 pm
Biggest issue with crossbows is the sidearm. You can dump loads of points into PS IF and Athletics and be pretty much as effective in melee as you are in ranged. WPF comes into play here but since you can get by with about only 3 WM and 130 WPF in a melee weapon. With an 18/21 build you can have 3 IF, 6 PS, 7 Athletics and 7 WM giving you a further 120 in Crossbow. Take a decent melee weapon, the maces seem awfully popular (and effective) and an Arbalest or a faster loading crossbow if you want and you're good to go in many situations.

The issue here is, if they lose that close quarters ability we're just left with more kiters. It's a problem but a tough fix too.

EDIT: Sudden idea, what if some of the heavier crossbows were unsheathable?
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Zerran on August 07, 2012, 08:37:02 pm
With 2 slot xbows, you are limited to a 1 slot sidearm, which essentially means you are at a pretty severe disadvantage in melee against anyone with a 2 slot melee weapon.

With a 1 slot xbow you have far less damage per shot and are less accurate, but can either have twice the ammo, or a 2 slot melee weapon. Even then, you have to sacrifice WM for those points in Xbow, which could have been spent to get another PS (and sacrifice a little melee wpf) or 4 more IF.

Frankly I see no issue with the way xbows are now, aside from the fact that you can use them somewhat effectively with 1 wpf.

EDIT: Oh... and shotgunning. That needs to go.
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Mr_Oujamaflip on August 07, 2012, 08:41:42 pm
The 1h melee weapons are very good though.
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Torost on August 07, 2012, 08:42:38 pm
While other points are debatable, these two are absolutely not true.

1.  Xbows are rather expensive.

2. Try using xbow with 1 wpf(your, "anyone can use them" argument) and you will go broke pretty soon.

First you agreed and bolded the point, then you reversed? what made you change ur mind?

Here are some stats, maybe it will clear up the point.

(Crossbow usable for level 3 and up)
MW hunting crossbow 45p 3504g (1)
MW Bolts 5p 193g (16)
Total dmg:50p ammo:17 cost:3697gold

(Crossbow usable from level 5 and up)
MW Crossbow 62p 10474 gold (1)
MW Bolts 5p 193g (16)
Total dmg: 67p ammo:17 cost:10667gold

versus bow

MW Horn Bow 27c 7896
MW Bodkin Arrows 2p 5058 (17)
Total Dmg(PD:5):49p Ammo:17 Cost:12954gold

Exact damage from bow is tricky, dependant on level,wpf... Used PD5 as sample.
Arrows break very often, so the diffrence is larger than even the 250% diffrence indicate.

edited in the crossbow for comparison as requested. Using regular MW bolts as ammo, since they are cheap, and same ammocount.
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Zerran on August 07, 2012, 08:54:41 pm
The 1h melee weapons are very good though.

Take for example the sidearm I use, the langes messer in 2H mode, which I consider to be one of the best 1 slot weapons.

Speed rating: 100
Length: 92
Swing: 34 cut
Thrust: 25 pierce (uses polearm animation so if I'm not facehugging, it misses)
Weight: 1.7

It's fast, but compared to a 2 slot twohander, has very low damage aside from the thrust, which is very hard to land properly, gets stunned constantly, and is extremely short (Shorter than the katana even)

The 1 slot melee weapons are useable, but they have a severe disadvantage against the 2 slot weapons. The 1 slot weapons tend to be very light, and so get stunned more easily, deal low damage, and tend to be short. The only real advantage they have is they tend to be fast.

They are good for what they are, backup weapons, but they tend to be very poor main weapons on their own.

(click to show/hide)

Why are you using the hunting crossbow? No one uses it.   :lol: At the very least compare with the "Crossbow" and steel bolts.
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Zerran on August 07, 2012, 09:04:49 pm
Actually, I think I'll just go ahead and do a comparison

Arbalest with steel bolts = 21359

Longbow with bodkins (x2 for double upkeep) = 21216

Hmmmm... I'd say that's pretty close.
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Bulzur on August 07, 2012, 09:11:33 pm
Arrows easily break 3 times faster than your bow/xbow, in wich you have invested wpf, and if you use two slots of them... feel the pain...

Also, an Arbalet user consider only taking one slot of steel bolts, since it's indeed pretty long to shoot/move/reload.

And archer with only one slot of bodkin arrows is useless after having shot 17 times (if he heirloomed the arrows), in wich he probably missed 60% of the shots, thanks to the slow missile speed, and less accuracy.
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Zerran on August 07, 2012, 09:21:14 pm
Arrows easily break 3 times faster than your bow/xbow, in wich you have invested wpf, and if you use two slots of them... feel the pain...

Also, an Arbalet user consider only taking one slot of steel bolts, since it's indeed pretty long to shoot/move/reload.

And archer with only one slot of bodkin arrows is useless after having shot 17 times (if he heirloomed the arrows), in wich he probably missed 60% of the shots, thanks to the slow missile speed, and less accuracy.

Very well, let's do a comparison of a full loadout then (and as I remember, arrows have a 2x break chance, not 3x)


First, the xbow loadout. This will require a sidearm, and better armor, as it needs to be capable in melee to use that sidearm, and because it can't kite.

Arbalest = 18796
Steel Bolts = 2563
Langes Messer (My personal sidearm when xbowing) = 7517

Armor (my personal set when xbowing)
Chapel De Fer With Aventail = 3112
Heraldic Mail = 4983
Mail Gauntlets = 2074
Mail Chausses = 1290

Total: 40335


Now the archer set, again I'll use the armor I would use for this setup (I'll use 2x bodkins for a full archer set, although I use 1 stack of tatars and a langes messer)

Longbow = 11100
Bodkins x4 (2 sets at double upkeep) = 5058 x4 = 20232
Hammer = 589

Armor
Kettle Hat with Padded Coif = 1480
Peltastos Armor = 1752
Leather Gloves = 92
Rus Cavalry Boots = 412

Total = 35657

Conclusion: The archer set is less expensive.

Now admittedly I'm using a high cost sidearm and decent armor on the arbalest set, but I'm going for the best possible setup for each, and the arbalest set NEEDS melee ability, as it isn't as mobile and can't kite.
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Blackbow on August 07, 2012, 09:22:09 pm
MW crossbow : dmg 62 pierce / missile speed 53 / speed 126 / accuracy 88
MW Bolts : dmg 11p / ammo15
Total dmg: 74 pierce
need :10 pts in strengh and140 pts in crossbow for good accuracy

MW Horn Bow : dmg 27 slash / missile speed 42 / speed 64 / accuracy 99
MW Bodkin Arrows : dmg 2p /ammo 17
Total Dmg (PD:5) : 43.5 pierce
need :15 pts in strengh 150 in archery (so pretty all your wpf points) and spend 5 point in power draw

Crossbows fill the same function as Bows. Deliver damage from a distance.

Pros:
-More accurate
-Easier to aim, hold aim until perfect.
-Faster missilespeed(harder to dodge,less jediskills needed to predict the future)
-Hits harder
-Cheap upkeep compared to bows and arrows.
-Can be used by anyone at any level without making any sacrefices from a perfect meleebuild and gear.
-Can reload/"draw" in a safe and timely manner.(Animation also makes you a smaller target)

Cons:
-Slower rate of repeated fire.(A preloaded crossbow will be faster than any archer delivering the 1st shot).

clap u just said everything bro
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Sir_Senior_the_Eldest on August 07, 2012, 10:00:20 pm
I think the devs made a great job in presenting xbows. If you wanted to use a longbow you had to train all your life from childhood on to strengthen your shoulder muscles and bones (power draw). Not even trained knights could draw a longbowmans bow although they were well built men. The xbows don't need this. Using a windlass or other stuff to reload you didn't need that much muscles. And any peasant could use this after an hour of instruction. Just hold it towards the enemy and release. The accuracy comes with experience (-> wpf). So the requirements for using xbows are quite fitting.

Aren't bows and xbows balanced in crpg? I mean on a battlefield without obstacles in eg battle mode bows are clearly better, but, not surprisingly xbows show their benefits in siege mode. Just like it should be...

Upkeep of xbows is ok too so maybe the problem why lots of people carry a xbow on their back although they are melees is because they have too much money...
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on August 07, 2012, 10:16:11 pm
I'd agree with most of what Senior says, however the thing is that crossbows do more damage in game than bows.  A hand drawn crossbow had about the same draw weight compared to some of the longer bows of the period (which made it about 1/3 as strong).  For a crossbow to do the same amount of damage as the largest bows, it would require 3 times the draw weight, which required  using a hand crank (like the arbalest reload speed).

I think the dev's have it wrong with how powerful the crossbows are compared to the bows.  I read you needed about 3 times the draw weight of a bow, to output the same damage with a crossbow, due to the much smaller draw length.
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Havoco on August 07, 2012, 10:32:07 pm
Lol. I've been preaching this bullshit since strat 1. Who cares if xbows were able to be used by everyone? IMO it would be better balanced if xbows has a stat contribution like all the other ranged.
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Rumblood on August 07, 2012, 10:56:34 pm
If you slow the missile speed of the xbows down just slightly, I think it would address damage, accuracy, and the ability of aware melee to dodge their shots. Other than that, they are fine.
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Nightingale on August 08, 2012, 12:29:06 am
Well, I know my opinion wont change the minds of any of you because your already gonna believe what you want. Regardless of what anyone says or does.

I have been using Masterwork Arbalest with Masterwork Steel bolts for a long while

I don't believe adding requirements of PD or something much like PD will do any good...  Going by the chart you posted (Topic starter) if I had to have 6 PD to use my Arbalest so be it... Id simply have 6 ps instead of 3 and 7 Weapon master instead of 8 and give up my 2 ironflesh

all in all Id lose 5 wpf in xbow and 10 in 1 hander which is currently 160 in xbow and  85 in 1 hander

all that would do is Make me stronger in melee....
-----------------
BULLSHIT
i have 18 strengh 45 body armor (mw light strange armor+mw mail gauntlet) and i get one shot everyday by a mw arba
somethime those have no mw bolts

we did some test in battle there is no bonus speed
im static the mw arba shot me in body and get os

want a fraps proof ?

Yes, I would love to see this.  :rolleyes: - with No ironflesh maybe it could 1 shot you. but I still don't see it

----------

In my opinion <--- you don't have to agree. Instead of adding PD to xbow users, Add Wpf requirements.

Would stop ppl from being able to use them with 1 wpf. 

I am not sure how it would work at all... maybe something like this...

Hunting crossbow - 60 wpf
Light crossbow -90 wpf
Crossbow -115 wpf
Heavy Crossbow - 120 wpf
Arbalest - 130 wpf

^ just an idea but that is it.
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: karasu on August 08, 2012, 03:15:17 am
Will never happen.

Why? One word. Fasader.
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: IR_Kuoin on August 08, 2012, 03:20:26 am
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Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Darkkarma on August 08, 2012, 09:10:31 am
Lol. I've been preaching this bullshit since strat 1. Who cares if xbows were able to be used by everyone? IMO it would be better balanced if xbows has a stat contribution like all the other ranged.

Xbows already do have stat contribution..The problem is that it's just not deep enough. In other words, its not or rewarding enough to go with 150 wpf over say, 50 WPF; especially with the regular crossbows.  Currently, the Arbalest is fine in that if you dont devote the proper amount of WPF you wont be hitting shit consistently and even with body shots and arm shots the damage is pretty negligible most of the time. Rain doesn't even need to be mentioned at this point. It the regular crossbow that is such an issue now in my opinion.
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Zerran on August 08, 2012, 10:23:37 am
Xbows already do have stat contribution..The problem is that it's just not deep enough. In other words, its not or rewarding enough to go with 150 wpf over say, 50 WPF; especially with the regular crossbows.  Currently, the Arbalest is fine in that if you dont devote the proper amount of WPF you wont be hitting shit consistently and even with body shots and arm shots the damage is pretty negligible most of the time. Rain doesn't even need to be mentioned at this point. It the regular crossbow that is such an issue now in my opinion.

Indeed. Good damage output, relatively fast and cheap, plenty of accuracy even with 1 wpf, and 1 slot to boot so you can take 2 stacks of bolts, or a 2 slot weapon, which basically puts a hybrid Crossbow + melee user on par in melee with a pure melee user, as opposed to the 2 slot xbows that have to use a 1 slot melee weapon and demand good accuracy due to their rate of fire.

Perhaps making at least the "Crossbow" 2 slots might help with this. Though to be honest I'd rather not see all the current "Crossbow" + 2 slot melee players just switch to the light crossbow. They won't be as effective, but that also means they won't be helping their team as much.
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Darkkarma on August 08, 2012, 11:46:25 am
Indeed. Good damage output, relatively fast and cheap, plenty of accuracy even with 1 wpf, and 1 slot to boot so you can take 2 stacks of bolts, or a 2 slot weapon, which basically puts a hybrid Crossbow + melee user on par in melee with a pure melee user, as opposed to the 2 slot xbows that have to use a 1 slot melee weapon and demand good accuracy due to their rate of fire.

Perhaps making at least the "Crossbow" 2 slots might help with this. Though to be honest I'd rather not see all the current "Crossbow" + 2 slot melee players just switch to the light crossbow. They won't be as effective, but that also means they won't be helping their team as much.

Agreed. I feel as if simply increasing the need for wpf/cross hair tightening for the regular crossbow would fix quite a bit. I know of plenty of dedicated reg crossbow users that put in 100+ wpf yet it doesn't make much difference against a user with around 30-50 wpf with the same bow. I know alot of others have been making this suggestion for quite a while so I imagine it's not a simple thing to do.
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Torost on August 09, 2012, 10:14:23 am
Archer
3/4 slots used

MW Hornbow 27p Upkeep: 552 gold
MW Bodkins 2p  Upkeep: 354 gold 17 ammo
MW Bodkins 2p  Upkeep: 354 gold 17 ammo

Ammo   : 34 arrows
Upkeep : 1260 gold
Damage 5PD:49.3 6PD:53.4p 7PD:57.4p 8PD:61.5p 9PD:65.5p
without adjusting for wpf and STR, this can be negative when under 100 and positive over 100. You must have 14 wpf per PD.
 
Crossbowman 3/4 slots used.
MW Crossbow 62p upkeep: 733  gold 1 ammo
MW Bolts         5p   upkeep:   13  gold 16 ammo   
MW Bolts         5p   upkeep:   13  gold 16 ammo

Ammo     : 33 bolts
Upkeep  : 759 gold
Damage : 67p

Wpf will reduce upkeep on bow and crossbow. The ammo upkeep can not be reduced.
However for the crossbowman that is not a problem, since it cost next to nothing.

The archer will have tied up most of his wpf in archery and atleast 10 skillpoints or more in PD and WM.
He must also stay on the low side, armorwise else face penalties in wpf.

The crossbowman can decide how much wpf he want to use on crossbow, its optional.
Reduces upkeep,reloadtime and improves aiming slightly.

upkeep on archersetupweapons is without adjusting for increased breakage of arrows,they break alot!
66% more than the crossbow setup.

And should the crossbowuser wish to get real fancy and get +11p with MW steelbolts its only 179gold upkeep per stack with 13 ammo.
Archer could use regular cheap cut arrows, but there is a big diffrence between cut and pierce.
With PD6 MW hornbow and 163 wpf in archery vs a typical level 30 2hander(60 Bodyarmor 60 HP).

Mw Bordkins 2-4 bodyshots
MW Tatar      2-6 bodyshots
MW Barbed   3-6 bodyshots
MW Arrows   3-8 bodyshots
unloomed Arrows 3-10 bodyshots.
(From the bow damage calc)

If you want to do anything else than stun with hornbow, you need bodkins.
Crossbows&bolts are very attractive to loom vs bow&arrowgear.

Sorry for obsessive posting, but these are facts to my best knowledge.
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: DaveUKR on August 09, 2012, 12:18:35 pm
Archer
3/4 slots used

MW Hornbow 27p Upkeep: 552 gold
MW Bodkins 2p  Upkeep: 354 gold 17 ammo
MW Bodkins 2p  Upkeep: 354 gold 17 ammo

Ammo   : 34 arrows
Upkeep : 1260 gold
Damage 5PD:49.3 6PD:53.4p 7PD:57.4p 8PD:61.5p 9PD:65.5p
without adjusting for wpf and STR, this can be negative when under 100 and positive over 100. You must have 14 wpf per PD.
 
Crossbowman 3/4 slots used.
MW Crossbow 62p upkeep: 733  gold 1 ammo
MW Bolts         5p   upkeep:   13  gold 16 ammo   
MW Bolts         5p   upkeep:   13  gold 16 ammo

Ammo     : 33 bolts
Upkeep  : 759 gold
Damage : 67p

Wpf will reduce upkeep on bow and crossbow. The ammo upkeep can not be reduced.
However for the crossbowman that is not a problem, since it cost next to nothing.

The archer will have tied up most of his wpf in archery and atleast 10 skillpoints or more in PD and WM.
He must also stay on the low side, armorwise else face penalties in wpf.

The crossbowman can decide how much wpf he want to use on crossbow, its optional.
Reduces upkeep,reloadtime and improves aiming slightly.

upkeep on archersetupweapons is without adjusting for increased breakage of arrows,they break alot!
66% more than the crossbow setup.

And should the crossbowuser wish to get real fancy and get +11p with MW steelbolts its only 179gold upkeep per stack with 13 ammo.
Archer could use regular cheap cut arrows, but there is a big diffrence between cut and pierce.
With PD6 MW hornbow and 163 wpf in archery vs a typical level 30 2hander(60 Bodyarmor 60 HP).

Mw Bordkins 2-4 bodyshots
MW Tatar      2-6 bodyshots
MW Barbed   3-6 bodyshots
MW Arrows   3-8 bodyshots
unloomed Arrows 3-10 bodyshots.
(From the bow damage calc)

If you want to do anything else than stun with hornbow, you need bodkins.
Crossbows&bolts are very attractive to loom vs bow&arrowgear.

Sorry for obsessive posting, but these are facts to my best knowledge.


blah-blah-blah and nothing more. How I love these mathematics geniuses who try to prove that crossbows are better than bows just looking at the raw damage. Lets look at situations where archery with hornbow is better than Crossbow:

1) Open field. Crossbow slow and for the whole time you're realoding - you can't move. If you move - you reload is wasted. If you got touched - same. So you can be just ganked by anyone with anything to stop you from reloading. And to say more - you're an easy target.
2) Massive fights. Dude, have you ever calculated damage per minute for crossbows and bows? Do it then, if you're such a genius.
3) Fights again cavalry. Cavalry will won't just let you to reload, ranged horsemen will rape you to death while you still have chances to kill (more than they have chances to kill you) with your bow.
4) Kiting. Crossbowers can't kite.
5) Duels against other ranged. If a crossbowman misses - he dies. He can't 1shot you with a crossbow (if it's not a headshot), so he'll die anyway.
6) Rain. It makes crossbows 25% worse (-25% to bolt speeed => ~-25% of damage), so they become useless shit and they're way different to shoot. It's only 10% for archery which is barely visible since it's only 0.9 points of missile speed bigger difference than between regular hornbow and masterwork hornbow.
7) Amount of ammo. Enough said. If you say that it's easier to say because crossbowmen aim longer - do it with your bow. I've joined a server with my archer alt and made 9:0 in the very first round. Aim, drop your aim, aim, drop your aim, aim, shoot, boom headshot.
8) Health points. Archers have more of them due to bigger strength (in most cases)
9) Strategus. Bows and arrows are way cheaper so strategus battles always have more bows and arrows than crossbows
10) You can use Horn Bow on the horse back. You can't reload crossbow on the horse.
11) The weight of horn bow is only 1.2, the weight of crossbow is 3, so having 2 packs of steel bolts + xbow will be 0.2weight more than hornbow + 2 bodkins.
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Fuma Kotaro on August 09, 2012, 01:40:06 pm
So much crap from the xbow haters.
No good xbower would use bolts all of them use steel bolts and good xbowers with xbow doesnt exist because all of them are using an arbalest and the arbalest is pretty balanced and I cant evem 1 shot you 2h heros with my mw equip and I have to reload for ages with 150 wpf.
Current situation for ranged in general from the point of view of an 2h Hero/Cav dancer/(most op classes)
Throwing: destroyed (Mission succeed)
Archery: up against them (can glance of their clone armors)
Xbow: also up and cant 1 hit in the head against the 15/24 agi whores

^
and nerfing this again will make shielders useless


One last thing you goddamn criers.
Go and play native!!

Edit: Ive to pay so often for the arbalest (1.3K) and the rest of my expensive equipment soo...
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: gazda on August 09, 2012, 02:20:26 pm
6pd archer with non loomed longbow and non loomed bodkins deal............................................ 60 pierce base damage
crossbowman(regardless of the build) with non loomed arbelast and non loomed bolts deals......87 pierce base damage

27 base pierce damage is overcompensation for the slow reload speed. Especially when taking in mind that crossbow builds are viable in melee, that they have quite faster missile speed and therefor dont need to compensate for bolt drop as archers do. And also lets not forget that they can hold their aim for aslong as they want.




Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Darkkarma on August 09, 2012, 02:23:15 pm

blah-blah-blah and nothing more. How I love these mathematics geniuses who try to prove that crossbows are better than bows just looking at the raw damage. Lets look at situations where archery with hornbow is better than Crossbow:

1) Open field. Crossbow slow and for the whole time you're realoding - you can't move. If you move - you reload is wasted. If you got touched - same. So you can be just ganked by anyone with anything to stop you from reloading. And to say more - you're an easy target.
2) Massive fights. Dude, have you ever calculated damage per minute for crossbows and bows? Do it then, if you're such a genius.
3) Fights again cavalry. Cavalry will won't just let you to reload, ranged horsemen will rape you to death while you still have chances to kill (more than they have chances to kill you) with your bow.
4) Kiting. Crossbowers can't kite.
5) Duels against other ranged. If a crossbowman misses - he dies. He can't 1shot you with a crossbow (if it's not a headshot), so he'll die anyway.
6) Rain. It makes crossbows 25% worse (-25% to bolt speeed => ~-25% of damage), so they become useless shit and they're way different to shoot. It's only 10% for archery which is barely visible since it's only 0.9 points of missile speed bigger difference than between regular hornbow and masterwork hornbow.
7) Amount of ammo. Enough said. If you say that it's easier to say because crossbowmen aim longer - do it with your bow. I've joined a server with my archer alt and made 9:0 in the very first round. Aim, drop your aim, aim, drop your aim, aim, shoot, boom headshot.
8) Health points. Archers have more of them due to bigger strength (in most cases)
9) Strategus. Bows and arrows are way cheaper so strategus battles always have more bows and arrows than crossbows
10) You can use Horn Bow on the horse back. You can't reload crossbow on the horse.
11) The weight of horn bow is only 1.2, the weight of crossbow is 3, so having 2 packs of steel bolts + xbow will be 0.2weight more than hornbow + 2 bodkins.

You're totally casting pearls before swines writing this all out, but im glad someone who actually knows a thing or two about the crossbow actually took the time to do so. I'm going to reference this post in the future. Cheers, Dave.
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: Tovi on August 09, 2012, 03:59:34 pm
+1 to Dave
As a crossbower I usually shoot around 3 bolts in a round.
As a bower I shoot my whole stack of arrows.

Nowhere to hide = instant dying for xbowers.


My tip for 2handers : stop rushing into enemy line and wait that some ranged dies.
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: karasu on August 09, 2012, 04:07:29 pm
Time to summon my signature again...


  l
  v
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: gazda on August 09, 2012, 04:48:09 pm
there are too many ignorant players who are using crossbows, so any attempt of reasoning ends up in failure

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqs9DYisSsg
Title: Re: Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !
Post by: SMEGMAR on August 15, 2012, 04:04:29 pm
ITT: mad 2h bundle of stickss.