Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !

[Froto_the_Loc]

I made this point not to long ago.
Do you know why you don't see any archer/melee hybrids? It's cause it eats wpf and points.
Same with throwing, but to a lesser degree.

The crossbow is there for the a good hybrid that doesn't chew up your melee stats/ranged wpf and spit it back into your face.

[sF_Guardian]

So much bullshit in here :/
IF you want to do that Crossbows would need a significant damage reduce (by stats) because of the Powerdraw
(Adds 14% dmg per point while PS adds 8% and PT 10%, thats why agi archers still do fuckin lots of dmg)

Besides that the suggested high-tier mounted crossbows are totally op, ways too much dmg and accuracy.

I dont like theese changes but if you adjust the dmg powerdraw for crossbows would be just fair.

[Zerran]

Don't make xbows require a skill, that completely defeats their uniqueness compared to other ranged. Instead, make having very low wpf (0-50 or so) drastically reduce accuracy (wpf of 50+ should have the same accuracy it does now), so melee need to put some wpf in xbows if they want to use them.

[Torost]

Crossbows fill the same function as Bows. Deliver damage from a distance.

Pros:
-More accurate
-Easier to aim, hold aim until perfect.
-Faster missilespeed(harder to dodge,less jediskills needed to predict the future)
-Hits harder
-Cheap upkeep compared to bows and arrows.
-Can be used by anyone at any level without making any sacrefices from a perfect meleebuild and gear.
-Can reload/"draw" in a safe and timely manner.(Animation also makes you a smaller target)

Cons:
-Slower rate of repeated fire.(A preloaded crossbow will be faster than any archer delivering the 1st shot).

 In 1139  Pope Innocent II  banned the use of crossbows against Christians.

Other than being very effective, I wonder why people think it is fun to play as crossbowman dedicated or hybrid.
Boring playstyle IMO , and boring to fight against aswell.
Shoot,hide,reload,shoot,hide,reload,shoot,hide,reload
when outa bolts or if enemy gets to close.
Start playing your perfect meleebuild.

[sF_Guardian]

Crossbowing is in no way boring, at least if you reach a certain amounth of maturity and patience.

[Zerran]

Crossbowing is in no way boring, at least if you reach a certain amounth of maturity and patience.

Agreed. I quite enjoy using a crossbow, and I use the Heavy Crossbow, so it takes a little to reload. 

[Mr_Oujamaflip]

Biggest issue with crossbows is the sidearm. You can dump loads of points into PS IF and Athletics and be pretty much as effective in melee as you are in ranged. WPF comes into play here but since you can get by with about only 3 WM and 130 WPF in a melee weapon. With an 18/21 build you can have 3 IF, 6 PS, 7 Athletics and 7 WM giving you a further 120 in Crossbow. Take a decent melee weapon, the maces seem awfully popular (and effective) and an Arbalest or a faster loading crossbow if you want and you're good to go in many situations.

The issue here is, if they lose that close quarters ability we're just left with more kiters. It's a problem but a tough fix too.

EDIT: Sudden idea, what if some of the heavier crossbows were unsheathable?

[Zerran]

With 2 slot xbows, you are limited to a 1 slot sidearm, which essentially means you are at a pretty severe disadvantage in melee against anyone with a 2 slot melee weapon.

With a 1 slot xbow you have far less damage per shot and are less accurate, but can either have twice the ammo, or a 2 slot melee weapon. Even then, you have to sacrifice WM for those points in Xbow, which could have been spent to get another PS (and sacrifice a little melee wpf) or 4 more IF.

Frankly I see no issue with the way xbows are now, aside from the fact that you can use them somewhat effectively with 1 wpf.

EDIT: Oh... and shotgunning. That needs to go.

[Mr_Oujamaflip]

The 1h melee weapons are very good though.

[Torost]

While other points are debatable, these two are absolutely not true.

1.  Xbows are rather expensive.

2. Try using xbow with 1 wpf(your, "anyone can use them" argument) and you will go broke pretty soon.

First you agreed and bolded the point, then you reversed? what made you change ur mind?

Here are some stats, maybe it will clear up the point.

(Crossbow usable for level 3 and up)
MW hunting crossbow 45p 3504g (1)
MW Bolts 5p 193g (16)
Total dmg:50p ammo:17 cost:3697gold

(Crossbow usable from level 5 and up)
MW Crossbow 62p 10474 gold (1)
MW Bolts 5p 193g (16)
Total dmg: 67p ammo:17 cost:10667gold

versus bow

MW Horn Bow 27c 7896
MW Bodkin Arrows 2p 5058 (17)
Total Dmg(PD:5):49p Ammo:17 Cost:12954gold

Exact damage from bow is tricky, dependant on level,wpf... Used PD5 as sample.
Arrows break very often, so the diffrence is larger than even the 250% diffrence indicate.

edited in the crossbow for comparison as requested. Using regular MW bolts as ammo, since they are cheap, and same ammocount.

[Zerran]

The 1h melee weapons are very good though.

Take for example the sidearm I use, the langes messer in 2H mode, which I consider to be one of the best 1 slot weapons.

Speed rating: 100
Length: 92
Swing: 34 cut
Thrust: 25 pierce (uses polearm animation so if I'm not facehugging, it misses)
Weight: 1.7

It's fast, but compared to a 2 slot twohander, has very low damage aside from the thrust, which is very hard to land properly, gets stunned constantly, and is extremely short (Shorter than the katana even)

The 1 slot melee weapons are useable, but they have a severe disadvantage against the 2 slot weapons. The 1 slot weapons tend to be very light, and so get stunned more easily, deal low damage, and tend to be short. The only real advantage they have is they tend to be fast.

They are good for what they are, backup weapons, but they tend to be very poor main weapons on their own.

(click to show/hide)

First you agreed and bolded the point, then you reversed? what made you change ur mind?

Here are some stats, maybe it will clear up the point.

(Crossbow usable for level 3 and up)
MW hunting crossbow 45p 3504g (1)
MW Bolts 5p 193g (16)
Total dmg:50pierce ammo:17 cost:3697gold

MW Horn Bow 27c 7896
MW Bodkin Arrows 2p 5058 (17)
Total Dmg(PD:5):49p Ammo:17 Cost:12954gold

Exact damage from bow is tricky, dependant on level,wpf... Used PD5 as sample.

Arrows break very often, so the diffrence is larger than even the 250% diffrence indicate.

Why are you using the hunting crossbow? No one uses it.    At the very least compare with the "Crossbow" and steel bolts.

[Zerran]

Actually, I think I'll just go ahead and do a comparison

Arbalest with steel bolts = 21359

Longbow with bodkins (x2 for double upkeep) = 21216

Hmmmm... I'd say that's pretty close.

[Bulzur]

Arrows easily break 3 times faster than your bow/xbow, in wich you have invested wpf, and if you use two slots of them... feel the pain...

Also, an Arbalet user consider only taking one slot of steel bolts, since it's indeed pretty long to shoot/move/reload.

And archer with only one slot of bodkin arrows is useless after having shot 17 times (if he heirloomed the arrows), in wich he probably missed 60% of the shots, thanks to the slow missile speed, and less accuracy.

[Zerran]

Arrows easily break 3 times faster than your bow/xbow, in wich you have invested wpf, and if you use two slots of them... feel the pain...

Also, an Arbalet user consider only taking one slot of steel bolts, since it's indeed pretty long to shoot/move/reload.

And archer with only one slot of bodkin arrows is useless after having shot 17 times (if he heirloomed the arrows), in wich he probably missed 60% of the shots, thanks to the slow missile speed, and less accuracy.

Very well, let's do a comparison of a full loadout then (and as I remember, arrows have a 2x break chance, not 3x)


First, the xbow loadout. This will require a sidearm, and better armor, as it needs to be capable in melee to use that sidearm, and because it can't kite.

Arbalest = 18796
Steel Bolts = 2563
Langes Messer (My personal sidearm when xbowing) = 7517

Armor (my personal set when xbowing)
Chapel De Fer With Aventail = 3112
Heraldic Mail = 4983
Mail Gauntlets = 2074
Mail Chausses = 1290

Total: 40335


Now the archer set, again I'll use the armor I would use for this setup (I'll use 2x bodkins for a full archer set, although I use 1 stack of tatars and a langes messer)

Longbow = 11100
Bodkins x4 (2 sets at double upkeep) = 5058 x4 = 20232
Hammer = 589

Armor
Kettle Hat with Padded Coif = 1480
Peltastos Armor = 1752
Leather Gloves = 92
Rus Cavalry Boots = 412

Total = 35657

Conclusion: The archer set is less expensive.

Now admittedly I'm using a high cost sidearm and decent armor on the arbalest set, but I'm going for the best possible setup for each, and the arbalest set NEEDS melee ability, as it isn't as mobile and can't kite.

[Blackbow]

MW crossbow : dmg 62 pierce / missile speed 53 / speed 126 / accuracy 88
MW Bolts : dmg 11p / ammo15
Total dmg: 74 pierce
need :10 pts in strengh and140 pts in crossbow for good accuracy

MW Horn Bow : dmg 27 slash / missile speed 42 / speed 64 / accuracy 99
MW Bodkin Arrows : dmg 2p /ammo 17
Total Dmg (PD:5) : 43.5 pierce
need :15 pts in strengh 150 in archery (so pretty all your wpf points) and spend 5 point in power draw

Crossbows fill the same function as Bows. Deliver damage from a distance.

Pros:
-More accurate
-Easier to aim, hold aim until perfect.
-Faster missilespeed(harder to dodge,less jediskills needed to predict the future)
-Hits harder
-Cheap upkeep compared to bows and arrows.
-Can be used by anyone at any level without making any sacrefices from a perfect meleebuild and gear.
-Can reload/"draw" in a safe and timely manner.(Animation also makes you a smaller target)

Cons:
-Slower rate of repeated fire.(A preloaded crossbow will be faster than any archer delivering the 1st shot).

clap u just said everything bro