Eradicate the invasion of crossbows !

[Sir_Senior_the_Eldest]

I think the devs made a great job in presenting xbows. If you wanted to use a longbow you had to train all your life from childhood on to strengthen your shoulder muscles and bones (power draw). Not even trained knights could draw a longbowmans bow although they were well built men. The xbows don't need this. Using a windlass or other stuff to reload you didn't need that much muscles. And any peasant could use this after an hour of instruction. Just hold it towards the enemy and release. The accuracy comes with experience (-> wpf). So the requirements for using xbows are quite fitting.

Aren't bows and xbows balanced in crpg? I mean on a battlefield without obstacles in eg battle mode bows are clearly better, but, not surprisingly xbows show their benefits in siege mode. Just like it should be...

Upkeep of xbows is ok too so maybe the problem why lots of people carry a xbow on their back although they are melees is because they have too much money...

[CrazyCracka420]

I'd agree with most of what Senior says, however the thing is that crossbows do more damage in game than bows.  A hand drawn crossbow had about the same draw weight compared to some of the longer bows of the period (which made it about 1/3 as strong).  For a crossbow to do the same amount of damage as the largest bows, it would require 3 times the draw weight, which required  using a hand crank (like the arbalest reload speed).

I think the dev's have it wrong with how powerful the crossbows are compared to the bows.  I read you needed about 3 times the draw weight of a bow, to output the same damage with a crossbow, due to the much smaller draw length.

[Havoco]

Lol. I've been preaching this bullshit since strat 1. Who cares if xbows were able to be used by everyone? IMO it would be better balanced if xbows has a stat contribution like all the other ranged.

[Rumblood]

If you slow the missile speed of the xbows down just slightly, I think it would address damage, accuracy, and the ability of aware melee to dodge their shots. Other than that, they are fine.

[Nightingale]

Well, I know my opinion wont change the minds of any of you because your already gonna believe what you want. Regardless of what anyone says or does.

I have been using Masterwork Arbalest with Masterwork Steel bolts for a long while

I don't believe adding requirements of PD or something much like PD will do any good...  Going by the chart you posted (Topic starter) if I had to have 6 PD to use my Arbalest so be it... Id simply have 6 ps instead of 3 and 7 Weapon master instead of 8 and give up my 2 ironflesh

all in all Id lose 5 wpf in xbow and 10 in 1 hander which is currently 160 in xbow and  85 in 1 hander

all that would do is Make me stronger in melee....
-----------------

BULLSHIT
i have 18 strengh 45 body armor (mw light strange armor+mw mail gauntlet) and i get one shot everyday by a mw arba
somethime those have no mw bolts

we did some test in battle there is no bonus speed
im static the mw arba shot me in body and get os

want a fraps proof ?

Yes, I would love to see this.  - with No ironflesh maybe it could 1 shot you. but I still don't see it

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In my opinion <--- you don't have to agree. Instead of adding PD to xbow users, Add Wpf requirements.

Would stop ppl from being able to use them with 1 wpf. 

I am not sure how it would work at all... maybe something like this...

Hunting crossbow - 60 wpf
Light crossbow -90 wpf
Crossbow -115 wpf
Heavy Crossbow - 120 wpf
Arbalest - 130 wpf

^ just an idea but that is it.

[karasu]

Will never happen.

Why? One word. Fasader.

[IR_Kuoin]

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[Darkkarma]

Lol. I've been preaching this bullshit since strat 1. Who cares if xbows were able to be used by everyone? IMO it would be better balanced if xbows has a stat contribution like all the other ranged.

Xbows already do have stat contribution..The problem is that it's just not deep enough. In other words, its not or rewarding enough to go with 150 wpf over say, 50 WPF; especially with the regular crossbows.  Currently, the Arbalest is fine in that if you dont devote the proper amount of WPF you wont be hitting shit consistently and even with body shots and arm shots the damage is pretty negligible most of the time. Rain doesn't even need to be mentioned at this point. It the regular crossbow that is such an issue now in my opinion.

[Zerran]

Xbows already do have stat contribution..The problem is that it's just not deep enough. In other words, its not or rewarding enough to go with 150 wpf over say, 50 WPF; especially with the regular crossbows.  Currently, the Arbalest is fine in that if you dont devote the proper amount of WPF you wont be hitting shit consistently and even with body shots and arm shots the damage is pretty negligible most of the time. Rain doesn't even need to be mentioned at this point. It the regular crossbow that is such an issue now in my opinion.

Indeed. Good damage output, relatively fast and cheap, plenty of accuracy even with 1 wpf, and 1 slot to boot so you can take 2 stacks of bolts, or a 2 slot weapon, which basically puts a hybrid Crossbow + melee user on par in melee with a pure melee user, as opposed to the 2 slot xbows that have to use a 1 slot melee weapon and demand good accuracy due to their rate of fire.

Perhaps making at least the "Crossbow" 2 slots might help with this. Though to be honest I'd rather not see all the current "Crossbow" + 2 slot melee players just switch to the light crossbow. They won't be as effective, but that also means they won't be helping their team as much.

[Darkkarma]

Indeed. Good damage output, relatively fast and cheap, plenty of accuracy even with 1 wpf, and 1 slot to boot so you can take 2 stacks of bolts, or a 2 slot weapon, which basically puts a hybrid Crossbow + melee user on par in melee with a pure melee user, as opposed to the 2 slot xbows that have to use a 1 slot melee weapon and demand good accuracy due to their rate of fire.

Perhaps making at least the "Crossbow" 2 slots might help with this. Though to be honest I'd rather not see all the current "Crossbow" + 2 slot melee players just switch to the light crossbow. They won't be as effective, but that also means they won't be helping their team as much.

Agreed. I feel as if simply increasing the need for wpf/cross hair tightening for the regular crossbow would fix quite a bit. I know of plenty of dedicated reg crossbow users that put in 100+ wpf yet it doesn't make much difference against a user with around 30-50 wpf with the same bow. I know alot of others have been making this suggestion for quite a while so I imagine it's not a simple thing to do.

[Torost]

Archer
3/4 slots used

MW Hornbow 27p Upkeep: 552 gold
MW Bodkins 2p  Upkeep: 354 gold 17 ammo
MW Bodkins 2p  Upkeep: 354 gold 17 ammo

Ammo   : 34 arrows
Upkeep : 1260 gold
Damage 5PD:49.3 6PD:53.4p 7PD:57.4p 8PD:61.5p 9PD:65.5p
without adjusting for wpf and STR, this can be negative when under 100 and positive over 100. You must have 14 wpf per PD.
 
Crossbowman 3/4 slots used.
MW Crossbow 62p upkeep: 733  gold 1 ammo
MW Bolts         5p   upkeep:   13  gold 16 ammo   
MW Bolts         5p   upkeep:   13  gold 16 ammo

Ammo     : 33 bolts
Upkeep  : 759 gold
Damage : 67p

Wpf will reduce upkeep on bow and crossbow. The ammo upkeep can not be reduced.
However for the crossbowman that is not a problem, since it cost next to nothing.

The archer will have tied up most of his wpf in archery and atleast 10 skillpoints or more in PD and WM.
He must also stay on the low side, armorwise else face penalties in wpf.

The crossbowman can decide how much wpf he want to use on crossbow, its optional.
Reduces upkeep,reloadtime and improves aiming slightly.

upkeep on archersetupweapons is without adjusting for increased breakage of arrows,they break alot!
66% more than the crossbow setup.

And should the crossbowuser wish to get real fancy and get +11p with MW steelbolts its only 179gold upkeep per stack with 13 ammo.
Archer could use regular cheap cut arrows, but there is a big diffrence between cut and pierce.
With PD6 MW hornbow and 163 wpf in archery vs a typical level 30 2hander(60 Bodyarmor 60 HP).

Mw Bordkins 2-4 bodyshots
MW Tatar      2-6 bodyshots
MW Barbed   3-6 bodyshots
MW Arrows   3-8 bodyshots
unloomed Arrows 3-10 bodyshots.
(From the bow damage calc)

If you want to do anything else than stun with hornbow, you need bodkins.
Crossbows&bolts are very attractive to loom vs bow&arrowgear.

Sorry for obsessive posting, but these are facts to my best knowledge.

[DaveUKR]

Archer
3/4 slots used

MW Hornbow 27p Upkeep: 552 gold
MW Bodkins 2p  Upkeep: 354 gold 17 ammo
MW Bodkins 2p  Upkeep: 354 gold 17 ammo

Ammo   : 34 arrows
Upkeep : 1260 gold
Damage 5PD:49.3 6PD:53.4p 7PD:57.4p 8PD:61.5p 9PD:65.5p
without adjusting for wpf and STR, this can be negative when under 100 and positive over 100. You must have 14 wpf per PD.
 
Crossbowman 3/4 slots used.
MW Crossbow 62p upkeep: 733  gold 1 ammo
MW Bolts         5p   upkeep:   13  gold 16 ammo   
MW Bolts         5p   upkeep:   13  gold 16 ammo

Ammo     : 33 bolts
Upkeep  : 759 gold
Damage : 67p

Wpf will reduce upkeep on bow and crossbow. The ammo upkeep can not be reduced.
However for the crossbowman that is not a problem, since it cost next to nothing.

The archer will have tied up most of his wpf in archery and atleast 10 skillpoints or more in PD and WM.
He must also stay on the low side, armorwise else face penalties in wpf.

The crossbowman can decide how much wpf he want to use on crossbow, its optional.
Reduces upkeep,reloadtime and improves aiming slightly.

upkeep on archersetupweapons is without adjusting for increased breakage of arrows,they break alot!
66% more than the crossbow setup.

And should the crossbowuser wish to get real fancy and get +11p with MW steelbolts its only 179gold upkeep per stack with 13 ammo.
Archer could use regular cheap cut arrows, but there is a big diffrence between cut and pierce.
With PD6 MW hornbow and 163 wpf in archery vs a typical level 30 2hander(60 Bodyarmor 60 HP).

Mw Bordkins 2-4 bodyshots
MW Tatar      2-6 bodyshots
MW Barbed   3-6 bodyshots
MW Arrows   3-8 bodyshots
unloomed Arrows 3-10 bodyshots.
(From the bow damage calc)

If you want to do anything else than stun with hornbow, you need bodkins.
Crossbows&bolts are very attractive to loom vs bow&arrowgear.

Sorry for obsessive posting, but these are facts to my best knowledge.

blah-blah-blah and nothing more. How I love these mathematics geniuses who try to prove that crossbows are better than bows just looking at the raw damage. Lets look at situations where archery with hornbow is better than Crossbow:

1) Open field. Crossbow slow and for the whole time you're realoding - you can't move. If you move - you reload is wasted. If you got touched - same. So you can be just ganked by anyone with anything to stop you from reloading. And to say more - you're an easy target.
2) Massive fights. Dude, have you ever calculated damage per minute for crossbows and bows? Do it then, if you're such a genius.
3) Fights again cavalry. Cavalry will won't just let you to reload, ranged horsemen will rape you to death while you still have chances to kill (more than they have chances to kill you) with your bow.
4) Kiting. Crossbowers can't kite.
5) Duels against other ranged. If a crossbowman misses - he dies. He can't 1shot you with a crossbow (if it's not a headshot), so he'll die anyway.
6) Rain. It makes crossbows 25% worse (-25% to bolt speeed => ~-25% of damage), so they become useless shit and they're way different to shoot. It's only 10% for archery which is barely visible since it's only 0.9 points of missile speed bigger difference than between regular hornbow and masterwork hornbow.
7) Amount of ammo. Enough said. If you say that it's easier to say because crossbowmen aim longer - do it with your bow. I've joined a server with my archer alt and made 9:0 in the very first round. Aim, drop your aim, aim, drop your aim, aim, shoot, boom headshot.
8) Health points. Archers have more of them due to bigger strength (in most cases)
9) Strategus. Bows and arrows are way cheaper so strategus battles always have more bows and arrows than crossbows
10) You can use Horn Bow on the horse back. You can't reload crossbow on the horse.
11) The weight of horn bow is only 1.2, the weight of crossbow is 3, so having 2 packs of steel bolts + xbow will be 0.2weight more than hornbow + 2 bodkins.

[Fuma Kotaro]

So much crap from the xbow haters.
No good xbower would use bolts all of them use steel bolts and good xbowers with xbow doesnt exist because all of them are using an arbalest and the arbalest is pretty balanced and I cant evem 1 shot you 2h heros with my mw equip and I have to reload for ages with 150 wpf.
Current situation for ranged in general from the point of view of an 2h Hero/Cav dancer/(most op classes)
Throwing: destroyed (Mission succeed)
Archery: up against them (can glance of their clone armors)
Xbow: also up and cant 1 hit in the head against the 15/24 agi whores

^
and nerfing this again will make shielders useless


One last thing you goddamn criers.
Go and play native!!

Edit: Ive to pay so often for the arbalest (1.3K) and the rest of my expensive equipment soo...

[gazda]

6pd archer with non loomed longbow and non loomed bodkins deal............................................ 60 pierce base damage
crossbowman(regardless of the build) with non loomed arbelast and non loomed bolts deals......87 pierce base damage

27 base pierce damage is overcompensation for the slow reload speed. Especially when taking in mind that crossbow builds are viable in melee, that they have quite faster missile speed and therefor dont need to compensate for bolt drop as archers do. And also lets not forget that they can hold their aim for aslong as they want.

[Darkkarma]

blah-blah-blah and nothing more. How I love these mathematics geniuses who try to prove that crossbows are better than bows just looking at the raw damage. Lets look at situations where archery with hornbow is better than Crossbow:

1) Open field. Crossbow slow and for the whole time you're realoding - you can't move. If you move - you reload is wasted. If you got touched - same. So you can be just ganked by anyone with anything to stop you from reloading. And to say more - you're an easy target.
2) Massive fights. Dude, have you ever calculated damage per minute for crossbows and bows? Do it then, if you're such a genius.
3) Fights again cavalry. Cavalry will won't just let you to reload, ranged horsemen will rape you to death while you still have chances to kill (more than they have chances to kill you) with your bow.
4) Kiting. Crossbowers can't kite.
5) Duels against other ranged. If a crossbowman misses - he dies. He can't 1shot you with a crossbow (if it's not a headshot), so he'll die anyway.
6) Rain. It makes crossbows 25% worse (-25% to bolt speeed => ~-25% of damage), so they become useless shit and they're way different to shoot. It's only 10% for archery which is barely visible since it's only 0.9 points of missile speed bigger difference than between regular hornbow and masterwork hornbow.
7) Amount of ammo. Enough said. If you say that it's easier to say because crossbowmen aim longer - do it with your bow. I've joined a server with my archer alt and made 9:0 in the very first round. Aim, drop your aim, aim, drop your aim, aim, shoot, boom headshot.
8) Health points. Archers have more of them due to bigger strength (in most cases)
9) Strategus. Bows and arrows are way cheaper so strategus battles always have more bows and arrows than crossbows
10) You can use Horn Bow on the horse back. You can't reload crossbow on the horse.
11) The weight of horn bow is only 1.2, the weight of crossbow is 3, so having 2 packs of steel bolts + xbow will be 0.2weight more than hornbow + 2 bodkins.

You're totally casting pearls before swines writing this all out, but im glad someone who actually knows a thing or two about the crossbow actually took the time to do so. I'm going to reference this post in the future. Cheers, Dave.