cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: kaassaus on July 26, 2012, 07:48:42 pm

Title: pike
Post by: kaassaus on July 26, 2012, 07:48:42 pm
the pike should be realistic like the rest of thegame.
how come that we die while we are fighting nose to nose and the 2 meter pike stabs me?
i dont get it...
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Lactating Vegetables on July 26, 2012, 07:50:43 pm
This game is in no way realistic  :rolleyes:


also have you even tried to use a pike?

and what is your class anyway?
Title: Re: pike
Post by: kaassaus on July 26, 2012, 07:55:11 pm
what you mean with class?
 its a simulation game, weapons are realistic, accept the pike.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Penitent on July 26, 2012, 07:56:51 pm
The game is in many, many, many ways realistic.

Also, its true that pikes can stab when ppl or things are too close to them.  When the pike is held back, you can stand to where the point is past you, but when they thrust you'll still get stabbed.
They can also "curve stab" around walls and through windows.

It's absolutely ridiculous.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Lactating Vegetables on July 26, 2012, 07:58:46 pm
what i mean by class is, are you a, 1h, shielder, archer, xbow, HA, HX, polearm, lancer, 1h cav, 2H my old friend?
Title: Re: pike
Post by: matt2507 on July 26, 2012, 08:03:27 pm
its a simulation game

 :lol:
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Lactating Vegetables on July 26, 2012, 08:08:45 pm
accept the pike.

agreed, you should accept the pike instead of bitching about it  :lol:
Title: Re: pike
Post by: oohillac on July 26, 2012, 08:14:32 pm
If someone took the sharp, pointy end of a pike (or spear or other polearm) and held it against my chest at close range, and then pushed said pike, it would hurt me anyway.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Penitent on July 26, 2012, 08:16:19 pm
If someone took the sharp, pointy end of a pike (or spear or other polearm) and held it against my chest at close range, and then pushed said pike, it would hurt me anyway.

What if the pike was pointed at you, but you were close enough to hold the end of the pike under your arm and have it stick out 8 inches behind you?  If you are naked, you might get a splinter or a friction burn.

This is the problem.  I think the "hitbox" for the pike starts at the point and continues for a meter down the haft or something.  I don't see how else these strikes can work.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: kaassaus on July 26, 2012, 08:30:46 pm
iam cav polearm, and still by meaning that pike`s are ridiculous.. its impossiple they stab while fightin close combat..
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Korgoth on July 26, 2012, 08:39:08 pm
its a simulation game

No.

Try playing IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover. That's a Simulation game.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Penitent on July 26, 2012, 08:43:16 pm
Realism defines common sense,
but this is a balance issue at its heart.

here are the problems illustrated:

ISSUE#1: Top-Down view
Imagine you are beating down a door, and a pikeman is in the adjacent window watching you (this happened to me the other day).
(click to show/hide)



ISSUE #2: Side View
What the other posters are trying to describe.
(click to show/hide)

I rest my case.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Korgoth on July 26, 2012, 08:51:21 pm
This game isn't meant to be realistic.

I rest my case.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Penitent on July 26, 2012, 08:55:51 pm
This game isn't meant to be realistic.

I rest my case.

this is a balance issue, not a realism issue.

edit: actually, i think its more of a glitch/bug that needs to be corrected.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Lactating Vegetables on July 26, 2012, 08:57:59 pm
so you want to ruin pike even more?

Title: Re: pike
Post by: Penitent on July 26, 2012, 09:08:19 pm
so you want to ruin fix pike even more?

The realism/balance discussion is a black-and-white argument that doesn't apply here I don't think.  Outside of realism and balance, we all have certain assumptions that we share regarding this game.

We assume gravity won't reverse, and we'll all stay flat on the ground.
We assume getting smacked in the head will hurt more than getting poked in the foot.
We assume weapons can't attack through walls.
We assume that if a weapon is out of range OR too close to a player, damage won't be dealt.

Why does the pike get an exception to those last two assumptions?  It doesn't make any sense.  NO weapon should have these abilities.  It doesn't matter if its OP, UP, or peepee.  It's a glitch, a bug, and it should be fixed.  There aren't any questions about it.  I can't see an argument for allowing the pike to behave differently than ALL the other weapon in the game making any sense.

However, I know humans can be very creative and nuanced.  If you or anyone else has any compelling reasons why the pike should be able to defy these very basic and universal assumptions we all share about how the mechanics of CRPG work...please share!
Title: Re: pike
Post by: kaassaus on July 26, 2012, 09:10:12 pm
idd i too think its a bug.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Korgoth on July 26, 2012, 09:15:18 pm
this is a balance issue, not a realism issue.

edit: actually, i think its more of a glitch/bug that needs to be corrected.

Well what you just illustrated is a problem with most weapons in the game and I'm pretty sure it can't be fixed.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 26, 2012, 09:17:22 pm
The game is in many, many, many ways realistic.

Also, its true that pikes can stab when ppl or things are too close to them.  When the pike is held back, you can stand to where the point is past you, but when they thrust you'll still get stabbed.
They can also "curve stab" around walls and through windows.

It's absolutely ridiculous.

This affects every weapon in the game.  It's the same reason I'm able to bump/stab or bump/couch someone with my heavy lance on horseback. 

*EDIT* Sorry Kor, read the first two posts and responded :P
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Penitent on July 26, 2012, 09:21:38 pm
with 1h weapons I cannot stab someone that is too close to be stabbed.  Even if they are far away enough that the point of my sword can concievably be thrust into their body, it will "bounce back."

So no, this does not happen with all weapons.
Maybe it is a problem with poles, or just very long weapons?
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Toodles on July 26, 2012, 09:43:17 pm
All boohoo-don't-nerf-my-weapon people need to understand that while the pike and many long weapons are now balanced with the GLITCH TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT, they can just as well be balanced ONCE IT'S FIXED through STAT changes.

You want to cover your buddies with a pike? Be sure to be covered in return, or prepare sidearm.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: rustyspoon on July 26, 2012, 09:53:02 pm
All boohoo-don't-nerf-my-weapon people need to understand that while the pike and many long weapons are now balanced with the GLITCH TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT, they can just as well be balanced ONCE IT'S FIXED through STAT changes.

You want to cover your buddies with a pike? Be sure to be covered in return, or prepare sidearm.

That's something I would like. It would also help the game be more dynamic. I already do that with my hoplite. If I'm about to be overrun, or someone's trying to facehug me, I pull out my sword which auto drops my ashwood pike. Once I kill them, I pick my pike back up again.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Toodles on July 26, 2012, 10:04:16 pm
That's something I would like. It would also help the game be more dynamic. I already do that with my hoplite. If I'm about to be overrun, or someone's trying to facehug me, I pull out my sword which auto drops my ashwood pike. Once I kill them, I pick my pike back up again.

Not to mention generating a greater emphasis on teamwork, which I'm all for! :)

Without knowing much about archery build dynamics, I'd say we'd see a hell of a lot more slower moving / high damage archers if they trusted the infantry to protect them. If anything, the sudden boom in hoplites is likely an indication that more and more people are coming to the realisation that the mob rules in cRPG, pikemen are just a bit further down the line of selflessness.

Anyway, sorry for the off topic there. :)
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Zerran on July 27, 2012, 01:47:33 am
Oh wow, it's been a while since we've had a NARF PIKE I CANT BLCOK DOWN thread.

PROTIP: Block down, wait for thrust stun: profit.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Toodles on July 27, 2012, 01:59:35 am
Oh wow, it's been a while since we've had a NARF PIKE I CANT BLCOK DOWN thread.

PROTIP: Block down, wait for thrust stun: profit.

Read - the - words.

Hell, someone even painted a PICTURE for you.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Zerran on July 27, 2012, 02:11:49 am
Read - the - words.

Hell, someone even painted a PICTURE for you.

I read them fine, point is the only way to "fix" the pike is to change fundamental game mechanics which would have a serious impact on every other weapon as well. Every single weapon in the game can stab with it's full length, so explain to me why you only expect the pike to not be able to do this?

So again: Block down, all your problems are solved.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Chris_P_Bacon on July 27, 2012, 06:13:47 am
There's possibly a fix for this. CMP developed a system that gives different weapon damages to different parts of weapons. Therefore they could reduce the damage the pole of a pike does and make it blunt but give it a hitbox so it doesn't go through shit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZIWhK8VXUo&feature=g-all-u (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZIWhK8VXUo&feature=g-all-u)
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Toodles on July 27, 2012, 06:43:17 am
I read them fine, point is the only way to "fix" the pike is to change fundamental game mechanics which would have a serious impact on every other weapon as well. Every single weapon in the game can stab with it's full length, so explain to me why you only expect the pike to not be able to do this?

So again: Block down, all your problems are solved.

A) I don't think ANYONE here mentioned having TROUBLE fighting pikemen, the issue being raised is the SENSELESSNESS involved.

B) Who said pikes should be the only weapons affected by this change? Anything that is too long to stab with at close range ought to stun at most and anyone chanting "balance over realism" fails to understand that the game CAN be balanced around that which ISN'T utterly devoid of LOGIC. Pikes are currently well balanced with their glitchiness taken into account, without they'll surely be balanced another way - higher damage or speed for instance.

C) The Vikingr mod has featured a minimal range script on ALL weapons for months now and from what I gathered cmp is working on an improved version of his own! So yes, it's possible.

:)
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Strider on July 27, 2012, 06:53:20 am
i don't get what your sayin. The pike is weaker than ever.
3 slots, unshealthable, no overhead swing, only 24 pierce, lower speed.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Tanken on July 27, 2012, 06:58:42 am
i don't get what your sayin. The pike is weaker than ever.
3 slots, unshealthable, no overhead swing, only 24 pierce, lower speed.

Not to mention we can't be tornadoes any more..

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Zerran on July 27, 2012, 08:56:25 am
Ok if you want a serious reply, let's get started.



First off I'll address the realism concern, just to get it out of the way.

1. Hitting through objects allows a pikeman to simulate being able to actually maneuver the pike in a sensible way around obstacles. This means a little pile of debris isn't a blockade stopping a pikeman from being useful, it allows piking over low walls, and allows us to simulate formations with shieldwalls. Yes, it's unrealistic to be able to stab clear through large objects, but without this ability, you lose the previous abilities too. This would just swap where the pike is realistic and where it isn't, NOT make it totally realistic.

2. Being able to thrust when an opponent is past the head of the pike simulates being able to grip it at different lengths, as you can with a real pike. When using a real weapon, your hands aren't glued at certain points, you can shift them. Seeing as warband has no mechanic for this, being able to hit along the shaft simulates it.

3. This game has a hundred other things that are equally unrealistic or even more so. Let me just list some here before some idiot says it's all realistic.
-Horses can run you over, dealing minimal damage, and continue on at 99% full speed.
-Crossbows can be reloaded very rapidly
-you don't die when hit by a bolt or arrow even in low armor
-Greatswords can cleave tincans in two 3 inches after they start swinging.
-You CANNOT spin and overhead or thrust in real life at all.
-You do not have 4 attack and block directions in real life
-You cannot spam endlessly in real life without becoming dead tired
-Nighttime in a medieval setting would be pitch black save moonlight and torches.
-Full plate can shrug off most anything, yet in c-rpg you can kill a tin can in just a couple hits with a 1 handed pick.
-In c-rpg being hit by a sword or arrow has no hindrance on your performance save a little drop in your health bar.
-You don't bleed in c-rpg.
-You respawn when killed.
-You can jump 5 feet in the air.
-Horses are stealthy



Ok, now that that's over let's address the balance issues.

1. It is hard as balls to hit someone with the tip of the pike if they don't just walk into it like an idiot. The tip is TINY, and with c-rpg physics it is NECESSARY to wiggle in order to get a good hit 80+% of the time. Making the shaft not deal significant damage is a HUUUUUGE nerf. Especially considering that we can't change where we grip it, there is only a tiny tiny range that we can hit with the tip.

2. People keep saying these nerfs will somehow make the pike into a support weapon more than it is. I call bullshit. If the pike can't wiggle around teammates then it becomes only useful as support in VERY small skirmishes with 3-4 participants. In any larger battles, it becomes totally (COMPLETELY) useless as a support weapon. Additionally, if it can't hit around high walls, then it can't hit around low walls, and that means it's only useful on flat ground (it's already useless on slopes due to shitty ground hitboxes.).

3. Now I didn't see anyone mention it in this thread, but I'll go ahead and address it anyway. Jumpspins. Yes, they are unrealistic as shit. However, without them having a Pike and getting charged by a spammy bastard means the only option the Pikeman has is to die. Don't tell me "Oh just pull out your sidearm." YOU try doing that after being thrust stunned for a full second, and then having some fool with a giant sword swinging at you.



I have yet to see anyone suggest a way to make the pike more realistic without making it useless. If you want to try and fix it, go play it for at least a gen then come back. Very VERY few people have any idea how the Pike works, and this leads to 99% of suggestions around it making it totally useless.

Before you suggest a way to fix a weapon, play it first so you don't just say something foolish. Please.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Felix on July 27, 2012, 10:54:11 am
This ^
If someone's going to continue bitching about pike AFTER reading Zerran's post, he can claim award "douchebag of the year"


Title: Re: pike
Post by: Haboe on July 27, 2012, 11:31:13 am
Cant agree with zerrans post completely.
Pikers can do great, switching to sidearm in close combat, picking up the pike later again. Just to take 2 extremes, Dieler and Chase... (for the NA guys, they often play together with long spear + quarter staff and top the scoreboard with it)
The "I cant change to sidearm because im stunned" is pure crap... If you get stunned its your own fault for letting them get so close, you should ve changed to sidearm faster. You have an incredible range in melee, so its only normal you fail in close combat situations.


I say leave the pike as it is, but make a hit with the wood low blunt damage and not pierce...

And yes i have a recent generation of pikeman experience.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Chasey on July 27, 2012, 11:48:02 am
Big difference between pike and longspear, dont confuse the two. I couldnt do the stuff i do with a longspear, with a pike.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Haboe on July 27, 2012, 11:53:31 am
I know but the idea is the same, hits with the shaft is the realism problem here, so making hits with the shaft blunt damage will be for all pikes/ spears.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Zerran on July 27, 2012, 12:10:04 pm
I use a Pike and Langes Messer in 2H mode, and yes I use my sidearm frequently. There are, however, times where it is simply not possible to switch to a sidearm without first getting a hit off on that spammer to make him pause for a moment. The Pike's thrust stun lasts FAR longer than that of the Long Spear, and quite often I end up thrusting into an opponent at the very tip of my pike while backpeddling, and they reach me and get a hit off before the thrust stun has ended. (And I have 6 ath, so I'm not slow.)

As far as making the shaft deal low blunt, as I said before that would mean the operable range of the pike would actually be less than that of any other weapon save maybe the archer hammer or dagger, as the only place you would be able to deal any kind of significant damage would be slightly past the tip when it's chambered, and slightly before it reaches the end of the thrust (remember, you need to hit in the sweetspot of the animation as well as hit with the tip, with your change.). Now just to spell it out completely, that's a TINY range. Anywhere else and the Pikeman would be useless. That essentially means the weapon would be so "sensitive" to the opponent's location, you would be better off just grabbing anything else and saying to hell with the Pike. If combat in this game was in any way realistic, this kind of change wouldn't be an issue, but the fact is, it isn't realistic at all.

Attacks are much "stiffer" than they are in real combat, while velocity change for a character is much more immediate. This means attacks have to use weird things like the wiggle or turning overheads in order to actually land hits. Not to mention, as I said before, you can't change grip location.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Haboe on July 27, 2012, 03:43:37 pm
Pike would still be the ultimate anti cav wep... Im just saying that a pike is a very long wep, and if you want that range it costs you the ability to be in close combat. Don't like that? Take a long spear or an even shorter wep...

Pikes arent meant to be an all round wep, just to support while standing with your allies, or kill horses.
You keep giving us the 1v1 scenario, off course you wont win that! Its a pike ffs xD

Ps, if you get a stun and dont have time to switch weps, you first make a block (which you can after hitting with the tip) and then switch weps...
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Zerran on July 27, 2012, 04:02:58 pm
#1 Pike is NOT the ultimate anti cav weapon by a LONG shot. Frankly it's a pretty shitty anti cav weapon unless the cav is just retarded. Longspear is vastly superior in that regard, and even then they're really only useful for blockading cav.

#2 I'm not giving the 1v1 scenario except in regards to jumpspins, and you can't make the pike unable to 1v1 or it'll just be so much less useful than other weapons that it won't be worth having. It is simply not possible to avoid such scenarios completely.

#3 Pikes aren't good all around weapons as is unless the opponent doesn't know how to: DOWN BLOCK. They're already support weapons, only against foolish people can they 1v1.

#4 Pikes are already the worst close range weapons.

#5 Switching right after a block doesn't work against an opponent with good footwork and a decently fast weapon. I've been Piking for 7, almost 8 gens now, and used the Long Spear the gen before that, believe me I know how to switch to my sidearm.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Haboe on July 27, 2012, 04:27:14 pm
#1 Pike is NOT the ultimate anti cav weapon by a LONG shot. Frankly it's a pretty shitty anti cav weapon unless the cav is just retarded. Longspear is vastly superior in that regard, and even then they're really only useful for blockading cav.
A pike is a good anti cav wep, no way you lose vs a cav unless you are a total fool.

#2 I'm not giving the 1v1 scenario except in regards to jumpspins, and you can't make the pike unable to 1v1 or it'll just be so much less useful than other weapons that it won't be worth having. It is simply not possible to avoid such scenarios completely.
A pike is a support wep. That means a piker should be near teammates supporting them from a little distance. No you cant always avoid a 1v1, just like archers cant always avoid melee. Thats a game for ya, you cant always survive every scenario.

#3 Pikes aren't good all around weapons as is unless the opponent doesn't know how to: DOWN BLOCK. They're already support weapons, only against foolish people can they 1v1.
pponent with good footwork and a decently fast weapon. I've been Piking for 7, almost 8 gens now, and used the Long Spear the gen before that, believe me I know how to switch to my sidearm.
Thats what i said in my last post, pike ARENT an allround wep.

#4 Pikes are already the worst close range weapons.
I say you win on close range vs a bow.

#5 Switching right after a block doesn't work against an opponent with good footwork and a decently fast weapon. I've been Piking for 7, almost 8 gens now, and used the Long Spear the gen before that, believe me I know how to switch to my sidearm.
You make it sound like you die every time you have to swap weps. If you are a decent player and you know your blocks fakes and footwork you should not have problems switching to your sidearm. Ofc you will fail sometimes, again, its a game, you wont always survive.


So i still say: for the sake or realism make a hit with the shaft blunt damage. Would still make sense irl and wont nerf pikes all that much.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Zerran on July 27, 2012, 04:31:23 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Haboe on July 27, 2012, 04:33:33 pm
Lovely when ppl don't have a reply anymore and start using pics so they wont have to answer.

Clearly me and zerran wont agree on this, so other players have anything to say?
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Lactating Vegetables on July 27, 2012, 04:47:25 pm
sooo yer, i just tried the poking from pike inside a person, and people claining that it works are bull shitting, it doesn't it just bounces.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Penitent on July 27, 2012, 04:50:23 pm
Welp, I think there are some good points on both sides of this argument. 
I think perhaps its true that all crpg weapon hit-areas are kind of wonky, but it only becomes ridiculously apparent and clown-lol-stab-circus-like with the going through of the walls and the haft-stabbing on the really long weapons, such as the pike.

I hear that the devs are working on re-working ALL the weapon hit-boxes.  I think this is a good idea to add depth to the game (not necessarily realism...lets not act like there's a vampire in here) and then the weapons will most likely be re-balanced around that.

So, with that in mind, perhaps we should see how the new hit boxes work.  I hope they come out soon!
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Penitent on July 27, 2012, 04:52:12 pm
sooo yer, i just tried the poking from pike inside a person, and people claining that it works are bull shitting, it doesn't it just bounces.

try starting the stab with the point just off the person, to the side, over their shoulder a bit.  Then drag the haft of the pike into their shoulder while you're thrusting.  It shouldn't be a stab, but it is.  That's what I mean.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Lactating Vegetables on July 27, 2012, 04:55:13 pm
well thats not what you said the 1st time, you said with the pike tip behind them when you thrust

or someone did
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Haboe on July 27, 2012, 05:13:43 pm
well thats not what you said the 1st time, you said with the pike tip behind them when you thrust

or someone did

That also happens, if you got enough ps you wont bounce off him ;) (im using a 33str char and i can do it)
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Tavuk_Bey on July 27, 2012, 07:10:51 pm
that's why i play ranged, so many ridiculous lulz happen in melee like this case
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Relit on July 28, 2012, 02:43:39 am
The amount of Long spear and Pike confusion in this thread is astounding. I agree with every single thing Caita has posted in this thread(except for switching to a sidearm... ever). Lets clear up some things:

1: The Pike cannot do the same maneuvers as the Long spear.
Example: Stabbing a enemy when being facehugged almost never works with a pike, while LS can do it with a slight twist.

2: Pike is not a very good anti-cav weapon.
Reason: The Pike is a cavalry deterrent, long distance weapons like bows and xbows are really the anti-cav. Cavalry players will not get near a pike or LS if they think they will get stopped.

I am a 7 gen Longspear user and a 9 gen Pike user. I never use sidearms so I will refrain from commenting on that sillyness.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: isatis on July 28, 2012, 04:52:32 am
time to get that mw pike from market and own noob unaware ppl by holding attack forever


coooool
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Blashyrkh on July 28, 2012, 09:50:07 am
if pike/long spear can stab me from 50 cm distance, can you please make my 1h sword stab reach 300 cm?
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Zerran on July 28, 2012, 11:10:50 am
if pike/long spear can stab me from 50 cm distance, can you please make my 1h sword stab reach 300 cm?

Sure, but we'll give it an unbalanced tag, make it take two hands, bump it up to three slots, make it only able to thrust, make it unsheathable, make it take polearm proficiency, give it polearm thrust animation, drop the speed down to 68, and call it a Pike.

Oh, and the Pike can't hit targets that are closer than about 1-1.5 meters. Longspear can.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Felix on July 28, 2012, 11:31:53 am
WTF ppl, learn to distinguish long spear from pike. All those lolstabbers are LONG SPEAR USERS, them are stabbing you from 1 cm distance. HATE THEM NEFR THEM we don't care, but stop bitching about PIKES.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Ragni_Bross on July 29, 2012, 12:14:16 am
The pike could easily be fixed but people seem to be against the idea.

The pike is, however, as broken and messed up as can be. It's meant to be a weapon that's easy to manufacture and use, a weapon you could arm hordes of peasants with. At the moment it is way too expensive, it has only one attack, it can block and it cannot be braced. It's all stupid and ridiculous. The thing is that some idiots decided that it had to be a viable "main" weapon. It had to be able to block and be used at extremely close range to satisfy those morons and now we're stuck with a broken pike. The way to fix the pike is to make it a lot cheaper so that those who actually need it can use it. Having a pike so you can stand behind your more powerful allies is great for a low-level pesant struggling to learn how cRPG is. Giving it a high stab would allow two pikemen to work together and defend each other from charging enemies, it'd promote team work! Making it unable to block would mean that it'll have to STAY a support weapon so you can't simply use it point blank. It'd be necessary to have a sidearm but if the pike got more affordable you could easily have both. Make it braceable. This worked great in Deluge and it would allow pikemen to defend valuable allies from horsemen or to protect choke points. The pike could easily be fixed but the problem is that some high-level oafs don't want the pike to be fixed, because those kuyak-dimwits like their messed up fantasy looks.

FIX THE PIKE ALREADY! It's not meant to work like this and you could easily fix it in terms of realism AND balance. Why bother having historically accurate names if all you're keeping is the name and the looks? Make it work like it should :P

Also, Guiness is a lovely beer.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Konrax on July 29, 2012, 12:52:22 am
The pike could easily be fixed but people seem to be against the idea.

The pike is, however, as broken and messed up as can be. It's meant to be a weapon that's easy to manufacture and use, a weapon you could arm hordes of peasants with. At the moment it is way too expensive, it has only one attack, it can block and it cannot be braced. It's all stupid and ridiculous. The thing is that some idiots decided that it had to be a viable "main" weapon. It had to be able to block and be used at extremely close range to satisfy those morons and now we're stuck with a broken pike. The way to fix the pike is to make it a lot cheaper so that those who actually need it can use it. Having a pike so you can stand behind your more powerful allies is great for a low-level pesant struggling to learn how cRPG is. Giving it a high stab would allow two pikemen to work together and defend each other from charging enemies, it'd promote team work! Making it unable to block would mean that it'll have to STAY a support weapon so you can't simply use it point blank. It'd be necessary to have a sidearm but if the pike got more affordable you could easily have both. Make it braceable. This worked great in Deluge and it would allow pikemen to defend valuable allies from horsemen or to protect choke points. The pike could easily be fixed but the problem is that some high-level oafs don't want the pike to be fixed, because those kuyak-dimwits like their messed up fantasy looks.

FIX THE PIKE ALREADY! It's not meant to work like this and you could easily fix it in terms of realism AND balance. Why bother having historically accurate names if all you're keeping is the name and the looks? Make it work like it should :P

Also, Guiness is a lovely beer.

I agree with everything except the last comment.

Pike/long spears should want to have a side arm, and those long weapons should become nearly useless in 1v1 and up close. I think being able to jump and swing the weapon at all should also be removed, or have jumping damage reduced since in reality land you actually need to be anchored to the ground to have any real power.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Lactating Vegetables on July 29, 2012, 12:53:45 am
kuyak-dimwits


your confusing 2h with polearms
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Vkvkvk on July 29, 2012, 02:20:38 am
I find it funny that the pikemen/longspearmen are lobbying about as hard as Cavalry does, coming up with all the bogus reasons they can possibly find.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 29, 2012, 03:08:21 am
I find it funny that the pikemen/longspearmen Community are is lobbying about as hard as Cavalry they always does, coming up with all the bogus reasons they can possibly find.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Zerran on July 29, 2012, 05:52:50 am
(click to show/hide)

Making the Pike unable to block doesn't promote teamwork, it promotes people to never ever EVER touch the pike. Please try playing a pikeman before you suggest such nonsense.

Oh, and the Pike wasn't used by peasants, you're thinking of spears. Making a Pike required an extremely long piece of good, straight, wood, which, while not near as expensive as the metal for a knight's armor or such, was not cheap. A pikeman would also be outfitted with a dagger or sword, which would not be needed in the case of a spear, making a pikeman further more expensive to outfit. Now, again, they weren't nearly as expensive as a knight, but they were far more expensive than the peasant gear you're thinking of.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Zanze on July 29, 2012, 06:06:05 am
Here is the argument that for some reason has not been disputed yet.

You argue realism for a pike being able to block? I argue realism for you to be able to block a stab to the face while your "block" is holding your weapon horizontal at the hip. You want to make me unable to block? Fine, then for the sake of realism you shouldn't be able to block my stab by holding your weapon at your waist. Directional block depending on where I am stabbing. Too hard to block against? Then don't argue realism against spears.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Ragni_Bross on July 29, 2012, 07:19:51 am
Making the Pike unable to block doesn't promote teamwork, it promotes people to never ever EVER touch the pike. Please try playing a pikeman before you suggest such nonsense.

Oh, and the Pike wasn't used by peasants, you're thinking of spears. Making a Pike required an extremely long piece of good, straight, wood, which, while not near as expensive as the metal for a knight's armor or such, was not cheap. A pikeman would also be outfitted with a dagger or sword, which would not be needed in the case of a spear, making a pikeman further more expensive to outfit. Now, again, they weren't nearly as expensive as a knight, but they were far more expensive than the peasant gear you're thinking of.

Making the pike unable to block not only promotes teamwork it makes it necessary! If you can't block with your pike you can't use it one-on-one and you need to use a sidearm to fight on. What's wrong with that idea? Makes perfect sense to me.

Making it cheap means that those who don't like the idea of a realistic pike can simply pick something else as it isn't one of the top weapons suddenly being fixed.

By peasant, of course, I mean anything or anyone that isn't me or someone I like (du-uh). I see how that could've caused some confusion but well. It still doesn't change the fact that pikes are waaay too expensive compared to lots of other weapons and because of that you don't see that many low-level characters using them.


Here is the argument that for some reason has not been disputed yet.

You argue realism for a pike being able to block? I argue realism for you to be able to block a stab to the face while your "block" is holding your weapon horizontal at the hip. You want to make me unable to block? Fine, then for the sake of realism you shouldn't be able to block my stab by holding your weapon at your waist. Directional block depending on where I am stabbing. Too hard to block against? Then don't argue realism against spears.

The low block is outrageously stupid but it doesn't change the fact that you CAN block or deflect stabs coming at you with lots of weapons, be they from swords or pikes. The thing is, however, you can't really block a sword with a pike. A pike is way too heavy and it requires both space and time of which you have very little. The low block looks stupid but simply indicates a low guard of some sort or, more likely, a position that is close to the area you want to protect so that your weapon doesn't have to move very long.

Sure, you can block other pikes with your own pike, but the number of weapons you cannot block with a pike is so vast that making the pike able to block is simply put dumb.

We've done a fair amount of pike-work at my Historical Weapons Group and I can tell you that all of what I've said is true based on those lovely sessions :3
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Relit on July 29, 2012, 01:53:11 pm
Removing block on a pike will make it even easier to just rush past the frontline and kill the pikemen before he can switch to his sidearm. I have lost count of how many times I am helping teammates with my pike and the enemy just bull-rushes me right past my teammate. If I had no block I would be screwed every single time I enter into a melee, everybody would know "hey there is that free kill". we would essentially have to drop the pike every time we get near a melee.

I work with guys constantly in NH about protecting their pike/spearmen, but a lot of the time it is literally impossible to get help from a teammate given the games mechanics at this point. Sometimes the enemy is too quick and just waltzes past the teammate and gets me before anybody can react fast enough, help is coming but I still need to get off a good couple of blocks before somebody gets the enemy off me.

If block was removed from the pike, I know a lot of Pikemen would just not use the weapon. At that point the risk of using the weapon far out weighs the benefits. As a consequence less pikes/spears means more cavalry running amok over everybody. I understand the realism argument versus pikes and heck I even agree, it does look a bit odd, but at this time I think its best just to leave the pike and longspear alone until other game mechanics are looked at.
Title: Re: pike
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on July 31, 2012, 03:16:01 pm
^  all I heard from this is Nerf 2h.

Sounds good.