pike

[Zerran]

Ok if you want a serious reply, let's get started.


First off I'll address the realism concern, just to get it out of the way.

1. Hitting through objects allows a pikeman to simulate being able to actually maneuver the pike in a sensible way around obstacles. This means a little pile of debris isn't a blockade stopping a pikeman from being useful, it allows piking over low walls, and allows us to simulate formations with shieldwalls. Yes, it's unrealistic to be able to stab clear through large objects, but without this ability, you lose the previous abilities too. This would just swap where the pike is realistic and where it isn't, NOT make it totally realistic.

2. Being able to thrust when an opponent is past the head of the pike simulates being able to grip it at different lengths, as you can with a real pike. When using a real weapon, your hands aren't glued at certain points, you can shift them. Seeing as warband has no mechanic for this, being able to hit along the shaft simulates it.

3. This game has a hundred other things that are equally unrealistic or even more so. Let me just list some here before some idiot says it's all realistic.
-Horses can run you over, dealing minimal damage, and continue on at 99% full speed.
-Crossbows can be reloaded very rapidly
-you don't die when hit by a bolt or arrow even in low armor
-Greatswords can cleave tincans in two 3 inches after they start swinging.
-You CANNOT spin and overhead or thrust in real life at all.
-You do not have 4 attack and block directions in real life
-You cannot spam endlessly in real life without becoming dead tired
-Nighttime in a medieval setting would be pitch black save moonlight and torches.
-Full plate can shrug off most anything, yet in c-rpg you can kill a tin can in just a couple hits with a 1 handed pick.
-In c-rpg being hit by a sword or arrow has no hindrance on your performance save a little drop in your health bar.
-You don't bleed in c-rpg.
-You respawn when killed.
-You can jump 5 feet in the air.
-Horses are stealthy


Ok, now that that's over let's address the balance issues.

1. It is hard as balls to hit someone with the tip of the pike if they don't just walk into it like an idiot. The tip is TINY, and with c-rpg physics it is NECESSARY to wiggle in order to get a good hit 80+% of the time. Making the shaft not deal significant damage is a HUUUUUGE nerf. Especially considering that we can't change where we grip it, there is only a tiny tiny range that we can hit with the tip.

2. People keep saying these nerfs will somehow make the pike into a support weapon more than it is. I call bullshit. If the pike can't wiggle around teammates then it becomes only useful as support in VERY small skirmishes with 3-4 participants. In any larger battles, it becomes totally (COMPLETELY) useless as a support weapon. Additionally, if it can't hit around high walls, then it can't hit around low walls, and that means it's only useful on flat ground (it's already useless on slopes due to shitty ground hitboxes.).

3. Now I didn't see anyone mention it in this thread, but I'll go ahead and address it anyway. Jumpspins. Yes, they are unrealistic as shit. However, without them having a Pike and getting charged by a spammy bastard means the only option the Pikeman has is to die. Don't tell me "Oh just pull out your sidearm." YOU try doing that after being thrust stunned for a full second, and then having some fool with a giant sword swinging at you.


I have yet to see anyone suggest a way to make the pike more realistic without making it useless. If you want to try and fix it, go play it for at least a gen then come back. Very VERY few people have any idea how the Pike works, and this leads to 99% of suggestions around it making it totally useless.

Before you suggest a way to fix a weapon, play it first so you don't just say something foolish. Please.

[Felix]

This ^
If someone's going to continue bitching about pike AFTER reading Zerran's post, he can claim award "douchebag of the year"

[Haboe]

Cant agree with zerrans post completely.
Pikers can do great, switching to sidearm in close combat, picking up the pike later again. Just to take 2 extremes, Dieler and Chase... (for the NA guys, they often play together with long spear + quarter staff and top the scoreboard with it)
The "I cant change to sidearm because im stunned" is pure crap... If you get stunned its your own fault for letting them get so close, you should ve changed to sidearm faster. You have an incredible range in melee, so its only normal you fail in close combat situations.


I say leave the pike as it is, but make a hit with the wood low blunt damage and not pierce...

And yes i have a recent generation of pikeman experience.

[Chasey]

Big difference between pike and longspear, dont confuse the two. I couldnt do the stuff i do with a longspear, with a pike.

[Haboe]

I know but the idea is the same, hits with the shaft is the realism problem here, so making hits with the shaft blunt damage will be for all pikes/ spears.

[Zerran]

I use a Pike and Langes Messer in 2H mode, and yes I use my sidearm frequently. There are, however, times where it is simply not possible to switch to a sidearm without first getting a hit off on that spammer to make him pause for a moment. The Pike's thrust stun lasts FAR longer than that of the Long Spear, and quite often I end up thrusting into an opponent at the very tip of my pike while backpeddling, and they reach me and get a hit off before the thrust stun has ended. (And I have 6 ath, so I'm not slow.)

As far as making the shaft deal low blunt, as I said before that would mean the operable range of the pike would actually be less than that of any other weapon save maybe the archer hammer or dagger, as the only place you would be able to deal any kind of significant damage would be slightly past the tip when it's chambered, and slightly before it reaches the end of the thrust (remember, you need to hit in the sweetspot of the animation as well as hit with the tip, with your change.). Now just to spell it out completely, that's a TINY range. Anywhere else and the Pikeman would be useless. That essentially means the weapon would be so "sensitive" to the opponent's location, you would be better off just grabbing anything else and saying to hell with the Pike. If combat in this game was in any way realistic, this kind of change wouldn't be an issue, but the fact is, it isn't realistic at all.

Attacks are much "stiffer" than they are in real combat, while velocity change for a character is much more immediate. This means attacks have to use weird things like the wiggle or turning overheads in order to actually land hits. Not to mention, as I said before, you can't change grip location.

[Haboe]

Pike would still be the ultimate anti cav wep... Im just saying that a pike is a very long wep, and if you want that range it costs you the ability to be in close combat. Don't like that? Take a long spear or an even shorter wep...

Pikes arent meant to be an all round wep, just to support while standing with your allies, or kill horses.
You keep giving us the 1v1 scenario, off course you wont win that! Its a pike ffs xD

Ps, if you get a stun and dont have time to switch weps, you first make a block (which you can after hitting with the tip) and then switch weps...

[Zerran]

#1 Pike is NOT the ultimate anti cav weapon by a LONG shot. Frankly it's a pretty shitty anti cav weapon unless the cav is just retarded. Longspear is vastly superior in that regard, and even then they're really only useful for blockading cav.

#2 I'm not giving the 1v1 scenario except in regards to jumpspins, and you can't make the pike unable to 1v1 or it'll just be so much less useful than other weapons that it won't be worth having. It is simply not possible to avoid such scenarios completely.

#3 Pikes aren't good all around weapons as is unless the opponent doesn't know how to: DOWN BLOCK. They're already support weapons, only against foolish people can they 1v1.

#4 Pikes are already the worst close range weapons.

#5 Switching right after a block doesn't work against an opponent with good footwork and a decently fast weapon. I've been Piking for 7, almost 8 gens now, and used the Long Spear the gen before that, believe me I know how to switch to my sidearm.

[Haboe]

#1 Pike is NOT the ultimate anti cav weapon by a LONG shot. Frankly it's a pretty shitty anti cav weapon unless the cav is just retarded. Longspear is vastly superior in that regard, and even then they're really only useful for blockading cav.

A pike is a good anti cav wep, no way you lose vs a cav unless you are a total fool.

#2 I'm not giving the 1v1 scenario except in regards to jumpspins, and you can't make the pike unable to 1v1 or it'll just be so much less useful than other weapons that it won't be worth having. It is simply not possible to avoid such scenarios completely.

A pike is a support wep. That means a piker should be near teammates supporting them from a little distance. No you cant always avoid a 1v1, just like archers cant always avoid melee. Thats a game for ya, you cant always survive every scenario.

#3 Pikes aren't good all around weapons as is unless the opponent doesn't know how to: DOWN BLOCK. They're already support weapons, only against foolish people can they 1v1.
pponent with good footwork and a decently fast weapon. I've been Piking for 7, almost 8 gens now, and used the Long Spear the gen before that, believe me I know how to switch to my sidearm.

Thats what i said in my last post, pike ARENT an allround wep.

#4 Pikes are already the worst close range weapons.

I say you win on close range vs a bow.

#5 Switching right after a block doesn't work against an opponent with good footwork and a decently fast weapon. I've been Piking for 7, almost 8 gens now, and used the Long Spear the gen before that, believe me I know how to switch to my sidearm.

You make it sound like you die every time you have to swap weps. If you are a decent player and you know your blocks fakes and footwork you should not have problems switching to your sidearm. Ofc you will fail sometimes, again, its a game, you wont always survive.


So i still say: for the sake or realism make a hit with the shaft blunt damage. Would still make sense irl and wont nerf pikes all that much.

[Zerran]

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

[Haboe]

Lovely when ppl don't have a reply anymore and start using pics so they wont have to answer.

Clearly me and zerran wont agree on this, so other players have anything to say?

[Lactating Vegetables]

sooo yer, i just tried the poking from pike inside a person, and people claining that it works are bull shitting, it doesn't it just bounces.

[Penitent]

Welp, I think there are some good points on both sides of this argument. 
I think perhaps its true that all crpg weapon hit-areas are kind of wonky, but it only becomes ridiculously apparent and clown-lol-stab-circus-like with the going through of the walls and the haft-stabbing on the really long weapons, such as the pike.

I hear that the devs are working on re-working ALL the weapon hit-boxes.  I think this is a good idea to add depth to the game (not necessarily realism...lets not act like there's a vampire in here) and then the weapons will most likely be re-balanced around that.

So, with that in mind, perhaps we should see how the new hit boxes work.  I hope they come out soon!

[Penitent]

sooo yer, i just tried the poking from pike inside a person, and people claining that it works are bull shitting, it doesn't it just bounces.

try starting the stab with the point just off the person, to the side, over their shoulder a bit.  Then drag the haft of the pike into their shoulder while you're thrusting.  It shouldn't be a stab, but it is.  That's what I mean.

[Lactating Vegetables]

well thats not what you said the 1st time, you said with the pike tip behind them when you thrust

or someone did