most maps were undefendable with those, you basically could bypass all defender chokes right at the beginning, instead of having to use map.Easy solution, make maps harder to take. The siege maps already are shitty and unbalanced anyway. Solved.
The broken games with lots of ladders were actually fun, faster paced and dynamic. I suggest we reduce defender spawn timer a bit and bring back ladders to siege.This is so true, sneaking in back ways was actually fun. That happens in real sieges and makes the game feel more "dynamic" like he said.
I agree 100%.
I am confused. What is a "manual" ladder?
EDIT: I'm assuming this is some sort of player-placed ladder? If so, that would be great for gameplay.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgqMnNJzHrI
I miss this.
I hope they will never NEVER bring back ladders in this mod. Endless spamming ladders and CS on doors, gates - there was a moment when siege was totally unplayable.
If they bring back ladder in game ever, I hope that upkeep will be like 50.000 gold for them.
God old times ... I can say horror times - It was impossible to capture some castles.(click to show/hide)
let there be 5 ladders to pick up at attackers spawn. but no one can spawn them, and if those five are used up, there are no more.
BTW for people who haven't been paying attention...
Ozin is working on a new "conquest" (like battlefield games) siege mode where there's a staged takeover of the castle. Larger maps, longer timer, and balanced around siege engineering/deployable ladders.
Supposedly it's almost ready and he's just on vacation so non-strategus public siege mode should be getting a lot more interesting soon.
I certainly don't want ladders back.
The default ladders suit the job perfectly, as you can almost always break through. And if you can't break through the first, there's other ladders to use. As evident on the siege servers, its perfectly possible to break through somewhere.
Having only default ladders balances the game more, as it is easy to predict whats gonna happen.
Manual ladders makes it much, much harder to balance the game, as there are endless options with them. And it takes ages before maps gets rebalanced or removed.
I do agree, however that mauls are OP in sieges. But that can be said about many weapons that doesn't fit in sieges, they're mainly balanced for battles afaik. Take the pike for example, its pretty horrible in sieges, but a valid option on battle.
EDIT:
Forgot to add, it also makes more strategies viable!
With manual ladders, the only strategy used was "Camp the flag". Since you can't really know where the enemy is coming from, your best bet is to simply wait at the flag for the enemies to arrive. Which turns "Siege" into TDM with one team waiting and having a long respawn time, and the other team running and having no respawn time. Very little "Siegelike" to me.
With default ladders, more options become available. Since you can predict the enemy moves, you can prepare defenses at set places. eg: Ladders, stairs, doors and gateways. Making it much more "Siegelike" to me.
BTW for people who haven't been paying attention...
Ozin is working on a new "conquest" (like battlefield games) siege mode where there's a staged takeover of the castle. Larger maps, longer timer, and balanced around siege engineering/deployable ladders.
Supposedly it's almost ready and he's just on vacation so non-strategus public siege mode should be getting a lot more interesting soon.
let there be 5 ladders to pick up at attackers spawn. but no one can spawn them, and if those five are used up, there are no more.
...
EDIT:
Forgot to add, it also makes more strategies viable!
With manual ladders, the only strategy used was "Camp the flag". Since you can't really know where the enemy is coming from, your best bet is to simply wait at the flag for the enemies to arrive. Which turns "Siege" into TDM with one team waiting and having a long respawn time, and the other team running and having no respawn time. Very little "Siegelike" to me.
With default ladders, more options become available. Since you can predict the enemy moves, you can prepare defenses at set places. eg: Ladders, stairs, doors and gateways. Making it much more "Siegelike" to me.
You have a point, perfectly predictable games with the same chokepoints that you should try to hold game and a game again are far easier to balance. But it's not nearly as fun.
A dynamic battlefield where you have to actually observe the enemy and communicate with your fellow defenders about where the enemy is, in order to guard your objective is my opinion very "siegelike". Trusting that the enemy will always come from the same place is not something actual siege defenders could rely on, not with ladders, siege towers and covert sappers weakening your walls underground.
This is pretty much still how Siege plays out. Camping the flag is almost always the best strategy as you have maximum force where you need it and the enemy travel time evens out the spawn time difference. Furthermore attackers very often come a few at a time and charge a room full of defenders alone, dying almost instantly.
Only keeping the gate closed in a few maps is critical enough to warrant moving away from the flag.
and yes ozin is working on siege 2.0
it will include : selectable spawn points, progressive spawn points (example - capture first tier before unlocking second tier), adjustable round timers, adjustable spawn timers, adjustable door HP, ballistas (yep they fire through multiple targets in a line), etc
The battlefield is still dynamic, the options have just been limited to 2-3 options.
Whereas it was impossible to observe the enemy with manual ladders, simply because there were so many routes! With 40 enemies on the enemy team, its impossible to tell who will be going where, and you often lost sight of them because of the walls and buildings. All this made almost always too dangerous to go away from the flag to knock down a ladder. Ask the HRE, they had one strategy: Camp the flag.
It is still a viable strategy, but new options have become available. You can now completely halt the enemy offense at set chokepoints and actually defend them! Rather than just defending flag and playing TDM. Chokepoints can, in some maps, be too weak, but in far the most maps it pays off to defend chokepoints.
Also bring back ladders for Battle and maybe eventually get back ability to ladderpult.
Fuck you people have short memories. It was godawful. There were no maps that were defendable, you could make a ladder route straight to the flag from any direction.
As a defender the only thing you could do was camp the flag, and still you would lose, because the attackers would flow in really quickly.
You 'd seriously rather camp the flag the whole time than have the interesting multi chokepoints defense we have now?
I'm sure HRE will be glad to hear this. They raped in siege and built ladderroutes to the flag every round in every map. A small clan group can still get a really good x5 going on siege, but back then they were unstoppable.
Camping the flag is the strongest strategy now. What we now is boring, so you might as well get people moving and actively looking for ladders to destroy.
Ehhh :?: do you even play siege :?:
Cause you full of it..
One thing that bothered me most about the deployable ladders was how they made the attackers bypass defences on all maps unless invisible and lame barriers were placed all over the map.
I am quite sure that I'll disable the manual ladders by default. Maybe let the map makers able to enable them if they so wish. Some variety couldn't hurt.
Couldn't that be solved with the defense having their own ladders? If there's an obvious strong point for the attackers to take in the castle with ladders, the defense should be there to.. defend.You assume that I'm talking about inaccessible locations, which I'm not. I was referring to the "highways" that were often constructed on maps to reduce the spawn-to-flag distance, overwhelming the defenders. Manual ladders simply broke a lot of maps that would have otherwise been good.
You assume that I'm talking about inaccessible locations, which I'm not. I was referring to the "highways" that were often constructed on maps to reduce the spawn-to-flag distance, overwhelming the defenders. Manual ladders simply broke a lot of maps that would have otherwise been good.
Do tell what's better than guarding the flag in siege. You know, the victory objective, the thing that decides win and defeat?
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Im dissapoint son...
Also why u use MARK HENRY GIF!?
Stopping the enemy at chokepoints? While leaving a few guards at the flag ofc.
The area around the flag is open ground, which doesn't give any benefits. A chokepoint gives an advantage in combat.
You assume that I'm talking about inaccessible locations, which I'm not. I was referring to the "highways" that were often constructed on maps to reduce the spawn-to-flag distance, overwhelming the defenders. Manual ladders simply broke a lot of maps that would have otherwise been good.
I am quite sure that I'll disable the manual ladders by default. Maybe let the map makers able to enable them if they so wish. Some variety couldn't hurt.
Some variety couldn't hurt.
Bring back ladders in battle mode too. Beside the roofmonkeys with bows it was fun.You must have the memory of a goldfish.
You must have the memory of a goldfish.
So anyone who plays siege has been on defense and cursed the spawnpoints (me included) especially when they spawn away from the flag when its contested.
When I started making maps, I found out why this happens, so I thought I'd share...
---------------------------------------------------
HOW SPAWNS WORK IN SIEGE MODE
---------------------------------------------------
When a mapper makes a map they place defense spawn points (entry points 0-31) throughout the castle where they want defenders to spawn.
However, which spawn is chosen by the system is not random nor proximity to flag, its based around a couple parameters:
Here are the parameters:
- Proximity to Entry Point 0 (what I call Defense Center)
- Proximity from attackers (it wants to spawn you AWAY from enemies)
- Proximity to other defenders (it wants to spawn you CLOSE to other allies)
(listed order is the weight order of the parameters)
Here's what this means.
When attackers get in and get close to the flag, the system is going to try to spawn you (defender) AWAY from those attackers, so EVEN if Entry Point 0 is near the flag, it will likely NOT spawn you near there.
Map makers COULD put ALL the defense spawn points near the flag, thus NOT ALLOWING the system to spawn defenders anywhere else - but have fun with that map, lol.
----
The system uses some thresholds to determine how to follow the parameters and therefore, where to spawn defenders at any given time But these thresholds are not easy to understand or implement exactly - so it becomes a "guess and check" basically for map makers.
So most map makers do the following:
- Place defense spawns how you think it will be best, put it up on server to "test" (we don't have any other way really to test with many players)
- Watch the results and/or gather feedback (community is so helpful and constructive with this, of course :) )
- Make small changes (as to not knee jerk react)
- Re-upload
- Watch again...
---------------------
Hope that helps explain why defense spawn points work the way they do. It was something I was shocked to find out myself.
They are basically a shifting field of spawn possibilities depending on distance from Defense Center and enemy players/allied players.
It is not a bad system necessarily, but unfortunately hard to control.
(NOTE - offense isnt really effected by this, since offense spawns are all clustered around Entry Point 32 (offense center) and defenders are not usually close anyhow. Even if defense got close, there is no where else to spawn so they would spawn there anyhow)
I am quite sure that I'll disable the manual ladders by default. Maybe let the map makers able to enable them if they so wish. Some variety couldn't hurt.
I see some of you complain about the castles were to easy to take with ladders. Well maybe make maps that are not in nativ style? make them harder to take so you cant just bypass al the choke points, if you make a siege map you maybe must take the ladders in to your calculation
Fuck you people have short memories. It was godawful. There were no maps that were defendable, you could make a ladder route straight to the flag from any direction. As a defender the only thing you could do was camp the flag, and still you would lose, because the attackers would flow in really quickly.
You 'd seriously rather camp the flag the whole time than have the interesting multi chokepoints defense we have now?
I'm sure HRE will be glad to hear this. They raped in siege and built ladderroutes to the flag every round in every map. A small clan group can still get a really good x5 going on siege, but back then they were unstoppable.
NO. NO ladders in siege. Ever. They are gone. We dont need them.
Now please move this to spam or close it.
No more talk about ladders.
If they are put in again, they must break if less inclined than 30 degrees or so
... let's say three men for a regular ladder), that also breaks the ladder.
This would probably fix the two biggest problems with ladders: ladderbridges and attackers flooding up the ladders as if they were escalators.
Maybe a new skill could be introduced that is necessary to be able to use the ladders in the first place. Could also be used with other siege equipment.