Author Topic: Bring Back Siege "Manual" Ladders  (Read 5372 times)

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Offline RamsesXXIIX

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Re: Bring Back Siege "Manual" Ladders
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2012, 05:41:33 pm »
+2
You have a point, perfectly predictable games with the same chokepoints that you should try to hold game and a game again are far easier to balance. But it's not nearly as fun.

A dynamic battlefield where you have to actually observe the enemy and communicate with your fellow defenders about where the enemy is, in order to guard your objective is my opinion very "siegelike". Trusting that the enemy will always come from the same place is not something actual siege defenders could rely on, not with ladders, siege towers and covert sappers weakening your walls underground.

The battlefield is still dynamic, the options have just been limited to 2-3 options. The enemy will not go the same way every time, they can take different routes to the flag. How you defend these routes can change the game. As an attacker, it is still very possible to surprise the defense by switching routes, and doing so with force. If the defenders doesn't keep an eye for this, they can get surprised!

Whereas it was impossible to observe the enemy with manual ladders, simply because there were so many routes! With 40 enemies on the enemy team, its impossible to tell who will be going where, and you often lost sight of them because of the walls and buildings. All this made almost always too dangerous to go away from the flag to knock down a ladder. Ask the HRE, they had one strategy: Camp the flag.


This is pretty much still how Siege plays out. Camping the flag is almost always the best strategy as you have maximum force where you need it and the enemy travel time evens out the spawn time difference. Furthermore attackers very often come a few at a time and charge a room full of defenders alone, dying almost instantly.

Only keeping the gate closed in a few maps is critical enough to warrant moving away from the flag.

It is still a viable strategy, but new options have become available. You can now completely halt the enemy offense at set chokepoints and actually defend them! Rather than just defending flag and playing TDM. Chokepoints can, in some maps, be too weak, but in far the most maps it pays off to defend chokepoints.

and yes ozin is working on siege 2.0

it will include :  selectable spawn points, progressive spawn points (example - capture first tier before unlocking second tier), adjustable round timers, adjustable spawn timers, adjustable door HP, ballistas (yep they fire through multiple targets in a line), etc

This sounds absolutely great! I just hope ranged will get a buff in this mode, as they seem UP to me in siege. (And while they're at it, nerf mauls in siege)

Offline Rhekimos

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Re: Bring Back Siege "Manual" Ladders
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2012, 06:05:00 pm »
+1
The battlefield is still dynamic, the options have just been limited to 2-3 options.

It's a whole lot less dynamic. And something "special" went missing with that change. Players could actually change the maps in real time. What other game had that?

Quote
Whereas it was impossible to observe the enemy with manual ladders, simply because there were so many routes! With 40 enemies on the enemy team, its impossible to tell who will be going where, and you often lost sight of them because of the walls and buildings. All this made almost always too dangerous to go away from the flag to knock down a ladder. Ask the HRE, they had one strategy: Camp the flag.

We can't get over or under the point that the flag, the victory objective is what you should guard. This fact that will remain as long as the flag mechanic stays in the game.

To offer a counterpoint; it's simple to predict where the enemy is: trying to get to the flag. My efforts in the old siege very often revolved around destroying back ladders to the flag while the rest of the team were busy hitting people through doors or whatnot running around near the enemy spawn. In fact, it would be stupid to leave walls such as you mention unguarded. Teamwork and communication were key, not camping the same exact spot again.

Quote
It is still a viable strategy, but new options have become available. You can now completely halt the enemy offense at set chokepoints and actually defend them! Rather than just defending flag and playing TDM. Chokepoints can, in some maps, be too weak, but in far the most maps it pays off to defend chokepoints.

Since the attackers still have another option at their disposal, this is often how siege games are lost. And defenders aren't supposed to be able to hold all the chokepoints to the flag. Instead, they can always find the enemy at the flag. That's where they really want to be.


Offline bilwit

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Re: Bring Back Siege "Manual" Ladders
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2012, 07:19:53 pm »
+1
Siege-only Ladders plz. It was best (and fair) when they were non-sheathable too.
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Offline justme

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Re: Bring Back Siege "Manual" Ladders
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2012, 08:03:45 pm »
0
but only with higher upkeep for them, and the repair formula simmilar as bodkin arrows (higher rate)

Offline Torak

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Re: Bring Back Siege "Manual" Ladders
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2012, 12:08:25 am »
+2
Bring em back siege is boring as fuck now
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Offline LordBerenger

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Re: Bring Back Siege "Manual" Ladders
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2012, 12:12:41 am »
-2
Also bring back ladders for Battle and maybe eventually get back ability to ladderpult.
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Offline Teeth

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Re: Bring Back Siege "Manual" Ladders
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2012, 12:22:22 am »
-2
Fuck you people have short memories. It was godawful. There were no maps that were defendable, you could make a ladder route straight to the flag from any direction. As a defender the only thing you could do was camp the flag, and still you would lose, because the attackers would flow in really quickly.

You 'd seriously rather camp the flag the whole time than have the interesting multi chokepoints defense we have now?

I'm sure HRE will be glad to hear this. They raped in siege and built ladderroutes to the flag every round in every map. A small clan group can still get a really good x5 going on siege, but back then they were unstoppable.

Offline Tzar

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Re: Bring Back Siege "Manual" Ladders
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2012, 12:24:50 am »
-4
Also bring back ladders for Battle and maybe eventually get back ability to ladderpult.

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Im dissapoint son...

You used to be more creative when trying to troll the forums now your slacking... 
:?

Also +1 SgtTeeh couldnt agree more it used to be horrible boring to play siege back then...

And like Ramses said it made siege like a tdm with a long respawn timer for one of the teams.. not what i would call a siege
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 12:30:52 am by Tzar »
I've never played a server where people split up as much or as often as on EU1.  No wonder range is having a field day.

Offline Rhekimos

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Re: Bring Back Siege "Manual" Ladders
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2012, 12:38:19 am »
+1
Fuck you people have short memories. It was godawful. There were no maps that were defendable, you could make a ladder route straight to the flag from any direction.

Hey, with the exception of sky ladder towers, ladders were great in siege. I missed them then and I miss them now.

And they removed the ability to do ladder towers rather well, as two ladders touching each other spontaneously exploded.

 
Quote
As a defender the only thing you could do was camp the flag, and still you would lose, because the attackers would flow in really quickly.

That's what destroying the ladders was for.

Quote
You 'd seriously rather camp the flag the whole time than have the interesting multi chokepoints defense we have now?

Camping the flag is the strongest strategy now. What we have now is boring, so you might as well get people moving and actively looking for ladders to destroy.

Quote
I'm sure HRE will be glad to hear this. They raped in siege and built ladderroutes to the flag every round in every map. A small clan group can still get a really good x5 going on siege, but back then they were unstoppable.

I'm sure they would be. As would anyone capable of some teamwork.

And again, I'm not saying that we should bring back the crazy never-ending sky ladders.

Offline Tzar

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Re: Bring Back Siege "Manual" Ladders
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2012, 12:40:35 am »
-1
Camping the flag is the strongest strategy now. What we now is boring, so you might as well get people moving and actively looking for ladders to destroy.

Ehhh  :?: do you even play siege  :?:

Cause you full of it..
I've never played a server where people split up as much or as often as on EU1.  No wonder range is having a field day.

Offline Rhekimos

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Re: Bring Back Siege "Manual" Ladders
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2012, 12:45:53 am »
+1
Ehhh  :?: do you even play siege  :?:

Cause you full of it..

Do tell what's better than guarding the flag in siege. You know, the victory objective, the thing that decides win and defeat?

Offline Ozin

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Re: Bring Back Siege "Manual" Ladders
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2012, 12:46:33 am »
+5
One thing that bothered me most about the deployable ladders was how they made the attackers bypass defences on all maps unless invisible and lame barriers were placed all over the map.

I am quite sure that I'll disable the manual ladders by default. Maybe let the map makers able to enable them if they so wish. Some variety couldn't hurt.

Offline Rhekimos

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Re: Bring Back Siege "Manual" Ladders
« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2012, 12:49:16 am »
-1
One thing that bothered me most about the deployable ladders was how they made the attackers bypass defences on all maps unless invisible and lame barriers were placed all over the map.

I am quite sure that I'll disable the manual ladders by default. Maybe let the map makers able to enable them if they so wish. Some variety couldn't hurt.

Couldn't that be solved with the defense having their own ladders? If there's an obvious strong point for the attackers to take in the castle with ladders, the defense should be there to.. defend.

Offline Ozin

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Re: Bring Back Siege "Manual" Ladders
« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2012, 12:59:02 am »
+1

Couldn't that be solved with the defense having their own ladders? If there's an obvious strong point for the attackers to take in the castle with ladders, the defense should be there to.. defend.
You assume that I'm talking about inaccessible locations, which I'm not. I was referring to the "highways" that were often constructed on maps to reduce the spawn-to-flag distance, overwhelming the defenders. Manual ladders simply broke a lot of maps that would have otherwise been good.

Offline Rhekimos

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Re: Bring Back Siege "Manual" Ladders
« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2012, 01:00:50 am »
0
You assume that I'm talking about inaccessible locations, which I'm not. I was referring to the "highways" that were often constructed on maps to reduce the spawn-to-flag distance, overwhelming the defenders. Manual ladders simply broke a lot of maps that would have otherwise been good.

Are you talking of the sky ladder towers that were made by placing a lot ladders on top of each other? They were rendered impossible create before the ladders were removed.