cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: BlindGuy on July 11, 2012, 02:35:10 am

Title: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: BlindGuy on July 11, 2012, 02:35:10 am
To my best knowledge, wpf affects dmg for archery. This is fucked. Im pretty sure 15/27 WM build can do more dmg with hornbow than 21/15 PD build with longbow. Shoot faster, do more dmg, be more accurate, use less slots. What the very fuck? Discuss.


DONT bring unrelated to this thread.
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: Arrowblood on July 11, 2012, 02:39:03 am
No.
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: duurrr on July 11, 2012, 02:39:20 am
derp
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: Arrowblood on July 11, 2012, 02:40:06 am
yes, another whine topic.
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: SixThumbs on July 11, 2012, 02:41:51 am
Maybe up to a certain armor threshold but why would it be between a 15/27 and a 21/15 when those are two different skill point conversions? Wouldn't it be a 27/15 archer?
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: Arrowblood on July 11, 2012, 02:43:26 am
you get something like 1,4% dmg per 10 wpf i think
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: BlindGuy on July 11, 2012, 02:44:15 am
Maybe up to a certain armor threshold but why would it be between a 15/27 and a 21/15 when those are two different skill point conversions? Wouldn't it be a 27/15 archer?


9 PD does less dmg than 7 PD since it kills you wpf.

yes, another whine topic.


Whine topic? No, attempt at some kind of balance. Your a shithole archer anyway, I piss all over you on a regular basis nubbins
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: duurrr on July 11, 2012, 02:45:55 am

9 PD does less dmg than 7 PD since it kills you wpf.


Whine topic? No, attempt at some kind of balance. Your a shithole archer anyway, I piss all over you on a regular basis nubbins
i point and shoot better than you

fuck yeah, deal with it  8-)
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: Arrowblood on July 11, 2012, 02:46:53 am

9 PD does less dmg than 7 PD since it kills you wpf.


Whine topic? No, attempt at some kind of balance. Your a shithole archer anyway, I piss all over you on a regular basis nubbins
someone is mad.
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: Uumdi on July 11, 2012, 02:51:34 am

9 PD does less dmg than 7 PD since it kills you wpf.



Not true, but I see your point.  I played longbow and respecced to test the difference between 27/15 and 18/24.  The damage difference vs. whatever armor i picked at the time was 72 vs. 60, but to sacrifice all of your accuracy and shoot speed for that damage difference was awful.  Power draw is supposed to give you a 10% damage boost per rank, which sounds incredible, but it takes away your WPF drastically. 

There's an online calculator, very in depth, allows you to choose bow, arrows, loom level of each, target's body and head armor, PD / WPF, anything you'd even need to know before velocity is taken into the formula.

http://alpha-lider19.ru/MB/?go=archercalc


How up to date this is, I forget, but its still a great guide for a ball park estimate.
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: SixThumbs on July 11, 2012, 02:51:52 am

9 PD does less dmg than 7 PD since it kills you wpf.


So it should be 15/27 versus 24/18 then? That is kind of silly though if 9 PD would do less damage then 7 PD/
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: HarunYahya on July 11, 2012, 02:53:52 am
Just permaban all archers and cavalry and backpedalling 2handers and crushthrough noobs and polespammers and OP pikers and throwers cuz banning archers is too mainstream ban annoying turtles ban anything that rides a horse ban useless peasants ban agiwhores ban str crutchers fuck this community and game good night.
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: BlindGuy on July 11, 2012, 02:54:45 am
someone is mad.


Is it you? Cause atm, Im playing infantry with shield and a lance (yes, I like it HARD, game is easy tbh), but I just think its ridiculous that you can get more dmg from a shitty horsebow than from the most expensive 3 slot bows. If you think that makes me mad, your pretty fucked in the head. But probably you arent seeing the issue at all, your just blinded by your own overinflated ego. Meh, cba, get back on topic or stfu.


Not true, but I see your point.  I played longbow and respecced to test the difference between 27/15 and 18/24.  The damage difference vs. whatever armor i picked at the time was 72 vs. 60, but to sacrifice all of your accuracy and shoot speed for that damage difference was awful.  Power draw is supposed to give you a 10% damage boost per rank, which sounds incredible, but it takes away your WPF drastically. 

There's an online calculator, very in depth, allows you to choose bow, arrows, loom level of each, target's body and head armor, PD / WPF, anything you'd even need to know before velocity is taken into the formula.

http://alpha-lider19.ru/MB/?go=archercalc


How up to date this is, I forget, but its still a great guide for a ball park estimate.

That calc means nothing, dmg is always random and its outdated anyway. Currently most dmg is from 15/27 build, and thats just stupid. Hornbows and the like need "unusable on foot" tag, that or massive weight added, they are not for foot archer, they look stupid, are OP'ed to fuck, and have no drawbacks.


Just permaban all archers and cavalry and backpedalling 2handers and crushthrough noobs and polespammers and OP pikers and throwers cuz banning archers is too mainstream ban annoying turtles ban anything that rides a horse ban useless peasants ban agiwhores ban str crutchers fuck this community and game good night.

Pikers: downblock
2handers with a paperweight on S key: Just backpeddle also, they will get bored before you, cause they are essentially children.
Crushthrough: Easily defeated 1v1
Cav: Underpowered unless killing unawares

Only runningmy old friend archers are a real problem, not because I dont think they should be able to run away, but they should pay some penalty for it, instead of the game rewarding them for it.
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: SixThumbs on July 11, 2012, 02:57:59 am
Welp, time to try out a new STF. You still only have 3 athletics though, low HP and I'm pretty sure if your target is wearing heavy armor you're going to do a negligible amount of damage unless you hit them in the head.

Edit: Also, in your original argument the 21/15 would be a hybrid as opposed to a dedicated archer.
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: BlindGuy on July 11, 2012, 03:02:31 am
Wait, I should try a new STF? Why? I have...dunno, 12 toons, had a previous stable of about 12 toons, have been playing since peasantwars over 2 years ago, I know what is possible, what is stupidity of Epeeners, and right now, 15 STR archer with Nikes is the most dmg as archer, and its retarded.


EDIT: Also 21/15 cannot be a hybrid unless you realistically think you can be effective with under 100 wpf in both weapons.
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: OpenPalm on July 11, 2012, 03:03:57 am
Just permaban all archers and cavalry and backpedalling 2handers and crushthrough noobs and polespammers and OP pikers and throwers cuz banning archers is too mainstream ban annoying turtles ban anything that rides a horse ban useless peasants ban agiwhores ban str crutchers fuck this community and game good night.

QFT
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: Chivers_United on July 11, 2012, 03:05:05 am
Go 15/24 use tatar or hornbow with Mw barbed or bodkins and bring a miaodao as your melee weapon. You'll get headshots,have 8 ath, and 8 wm. Put 145 into archery and 100 into 2h. You'll be able to neutralize anyone if you can block.
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: SixThumbs on July 11, 2012, 03:05:14 am
I was saying I had to try out the 15/27 build now. Like I said though they still only have 3 athletics on top of whatever bonus agility serves for speed and unless they're fully loomed bows and (bodkin) arrows I can't see them being anymore of an issue then other archers provided you're wearing enough armor.
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: BlindGuy on July 11, 2012, 03:07:17 am
Shoot the face. Its 1hit on most ppl with bodkins and 170 wpf
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: SixThumbs on July 11, 2012, 03:09:36 am
You make that sound trivial when most people know not to walk in a straight line or can "duck".
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: BlindGuy on July 11, 2012, 03:14:53 am
True, with game engines inherent fails it is pretty easy to make your hitboxes vanish, but like cav, archers main targets should be unawares.
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: MrShine on July 11, 2012, 04:25:04 am
Best archer builds are 18/21 or 21/18.  Each point into PD increases damage by quite a bit, but you need WPF to shoot quicker and be more accurate. 

15/27 build is probably fine, but the 27 agility is NOT going to make up for the 3 athletics.  You'll be much quicker with a 21/18 w/ 6 ath, or a 18/21 w/ 7 ath.
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: rufio on July 11, 2012, 04:27:42 am
il be playing this 15/27 build on my alt soon, probbably will be great fun pwning people eazy mod OP OP OP, with abit of team support, looking forward to it
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: karasu on July 11, 2012, 04:38:07 am
Calm down, Rufio!
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: BlindGuy on July 11, 2012, 05:43:04 am
il be playing this 15/27 build on my alt soon, probbably will be great fun pwning people eazy mod OP OP OP, with abit of team support, looking forward to it


Like you can pwn ANYONE without your axe :P

Best archer builds are 18/21 or 21/18.  Each point into PD increases damage by quite a bit, but you need WPF to shoot quicker and be more accurate. 

15/27 build is probably fine, but the 27 agility is NOT going to make up for the 3 athletics.  You'll be much quicker with a 21/18 w/ 6 ath, or a 18/21 w/ 7 ath.


Discussion isnt about what build makes you run faster, its about doing more DPS with cheaper weapon that uses less slots, is more accurate to boot. Try to read OP before posting banalities.
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: MrShine on July 11, 2012, 07:06:13 am
Discussion isnt about what build makes you run faster, its about doing more DPS with cheaper weapon that uses less slots, is more accurate to boot. Try to read OP before posting banalities.

Ok I'll talk about your OP.

It's wrong.

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

You're sacrificing 2 PD & 4 Athletics (and 4 other points.. either into IF or PS) for.... 26 wpf.

That's fucking retarded.  There is no way a 26 wpf will compensate for 2 PD (28% damage increase).


SO AS I WAS SAYING, 18/21 & 21/18 are probably the best 2 archer builds.


Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: Everkistus on July 11, 2012, 07:10:27 am
I agree with MrShine. The build in OP just does too little damage.

I'm currently running 21/18 and it's a good build. Planning to go 21/21 when I reach higher levels ;)
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: genric on July 11, 2012, 07:26:12 am

Not true, but I see your point.  I played longbow and respecced to test the difference between 27/15 and 18/24.  The damage difference vs. whatever armor i picked at the time was 72 vs. 60, but to sacrifice all of your accuracy and shoot speed for that damage difference was awful.  Power draw is supposed to give you a 10% damage boost per rank, which sounds incredible, but it takes away your WPF drastically. 

There's an online calculator, very in depth, allows you to choose bow, arrows, loom level of each, target's body and head armor, PD / WPF, anything you'd even need to know before velocity is taken into the formula.

http://alpha-lider19.ru/MB/?go=archercalc


How up to date this is, I forget, but its still a great guide for a ball park estimate.

Dude thats awesome I was always using the cRPG calculator pack to get really rough estimations but that Bow Master is crazy better. Uumdi you always show me the coolest things.
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 11, 2012, 07:30:22 am
Base_Damage=(0.85+(wpf*0.0015))

So 1 wpf is a smidge past 0.85 base damage, 100 is base damage, and 200 wpf is 1.15 base damage...

OP is incorrect by a long margin on the damage differences. WPF gives a damage perk, it is not a competitor to PD, PT or PS. Losing 4.2% damage and gaining 28% still wins in PD's favor.

EDIT: Forgot two zeros.  :oops:
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: genric on July 11, 2012, 07:38:44 am
Base_Damage=(0.85+(wpf*0.15))

So 1 wpf is a smidge past 0.85 base damage, 100 is base damage, and 200 wpf is 1.15 base damage...

OP is incorrect by a long margin on the damage differences. WPF gives a damage perk, it is not a competitor to PD, PT or PS. Losing 4.2% damage and gaining 28% still wins in PD's favor.

The main thing with WPF is that it increases your accuracy so if you have low PD but high WPF it wont compensate damage but with bodkins you should be able to go mostly for heads and decently armored people or go tartar and aim only for lightly armored. You would be a great anti archer wouldn't you?
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 11, 2012, 07:40:54 am
The main thing with WPF is that it increases your accuracy so if you have low PD but high WPF it wont compensate damage but with bodkins you should be able to go mostly for heads and decently armored people or go tartar and aim only for lightly armored. You would be a great anti archer wouldn't you?

That would be a separate issue from the OP:
To my best knowledge, wpf affects dmg for archery. This is fucked. Im pretty sure 15/27 WM build can do more dmg with hornbow than 21/15 PD build with longbow. Shoot faster, do more dmg, be more accurate, use less slots. What the very fuck? Discuss.


DONT bring unrelated to this thread.
I am not disputing effectiveness, I am disputing his incorrect theory that the damage is greater.
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: Vibe on July 11, 2012, 07:50:47 am
Just permaban all archers and cavalry and backpedalling 2handers and crushthrough noobs and polespammers and OP pikers and throwers cuz banning archers is too mainstream ban annoying turtles ban anything that rides a horse ban useless peasants ban agiwhores ban str crutchers fuck this community and game good night.

and nothing remains.
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: genric on July 11, 2012, 08:13:38 am
and nothing remains.

A lot of people with shields
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: Everkistus on July 11, 2012, 08:26:47 am
Just permaban all archers and cavalry and backpedalling 2handers and crushthrough noobs and polespammers and OP pikers and throwers cuz banning archers is too mainstream ban annoying turtles ban anything that rides a horse ban useless peasants ban agiwhores ban str crutchers fuck this community and game good night.
and nothing remains.
A lot of people with shields

ban annoying turtles
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: Arrowblood on July 11, 2012, 10:26:54 am


15 27 build  with bodkins and hornbow:

Minimum: 49
Average: 51.5
Maximum: 54

21/15 with longbow and bodkins :
Minimum: 55
Average: 57.5
Maximum: 60

Said the dmg calculator.
Its atleast not dealing MORE dmg :D
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: BlindGuy on July 11, 2012, 01:07:24 pm
That would be a separate issue from the OP:I am not disputing effectiveness, I am disputing his incorrect theory that the damage is greater.


No, I am correct. DMG per shot may be higher with very high PD, but since you will not be hitting anything, and shooting much slower, DAMAGE BEING DONE IS LESS. My OP does NOT state DAMAGE PER SHOT, simply dmg. When you Assume, you make an ass of u and me.
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: OpenPalm on July 11, 2012, 02:16:23 pm
Base_Damage=(0.85+(wpf*0.15))

So 1 wpf is a smidge past 0.85 base damage, 100 is base damage, and 200 wpf is 1.15 base damage...

OP is incorrect by a long margin on the damage differences. WPF gives a damage perk, it is not a competitor to PD, PT or PS. Losing 4.2% damage and gaining 28% still wins in PD's favor.

Dis formula don't work.  (0.85+(100*0.15))=15.85 base damage?
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: MrShine on July 11, 2012, 04:03:46 pm

No, I am correct. DMG per shot may be higher with very high PD, but since you will not be hitting anything, and shooting much slower, DAMAGE BEING DONE IS LESS. My OP does NOT state DAMAGE PER SHOT, simply dmg. When you Assume, you make an ass of u and me.

First off your original example is shitty.  a 15/27 build is a pure archer build, a 21/15 build has points left over for max PS & 5 IF.  If you are going to compare a pure archer with another strength oriented pure archer, comparing 15/27 to 21/21 or 21/18 is much better.

Second you are forgetting an important fact: the less damage you do, the more shots need to hit in order to kill.  So yes you might miss more often with less wpf, but a high wpf build would need to compensate for it's low damage output by a MUCH higher amount of accuracy.  17-26 wpf isn't nearly enough accuracy to compensate for the lowered damage.

Third, here are some numbers
Using http://alpha-lider19.ru/MB/?go=archercalc :

21/21 naked archer w/ hornbow & bodkins vs someone with 50 body armor:  16.4 damage on average  (this one has 165 wpf)
21/18 naked archer w/ hornbow & bodkins vs someone with 50 body armor:  15.7 damage on average  (this one has 156 wpf)
15/27 naked archer w/ hornbow & bodkins vs someone with 50 body armor:  11.8 damage on average  (this one has 182 wpf)

It seems, good sir, that it may be YOU who are making the assumptions here.
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: SixThumbs on July 11, 2012, 04:20:29 pm
I just tried it lastnight, 15/27, and it seems like a waste for me personally. There were instances when I would hit an unarmed archer ~3 times and they wouldn't go down. It was nice being mostly pin-point accurate from short-mid range and stopping infantry trying to gang up on a lone teammate but it just delayed the inevitable and didn't have enough stopping power for my taste unless they were injured in the first place.
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: karasu on July 11, 2012, 04:35:10 pm
Pew.
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: Casimir on July 11, 2012, 05:42:10 pm
Archery is crap, end of discussion  2h cav FTW.
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: Lichen on July 11, 2012, 06:18:33 pm
To my best knowledge, wpf affects dmg for archery. This is fucked. Im pretty sure 15/27 WM build can do more dmg with hornbow than 21/15 PD build with longbow. Shoot faster, do more dmg, be more accurate, use less slots. What the very fuck? Discuss.
15/27 is weak. Unless you have loomed bow+arrows then it becomes more useful. Headshots or light armored horses are mainly what it is best for.
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 11, 2012, 07:05:44 pm
Archery is crap, end of discussion  2h cav FTW.

Well I can't argue with that  :lol:


No, I am correct. DMG per shot may be higher with very high PD, but since you will not be hitting anything, and shooting much slower, DAMAGE BEING DONE IS LESS. My OP does NOT state DAMAGE PER SHOT, simply dmg. When you Assume, you make an ass of u and me.

I still disagree, as the DPS is lower. A 24/15 will still produce more total damage and score hits if you use it correctly (which is a bad build anyways, 24/18 works better and you can get away with just 3 ATHL if you are in a clan/friend squad). Instead of long range sniping, a 24/15 should be running directly in with the infantry, floating inside or around them, and scoring medium to close range shots. Having done this, you score quite a few hits, you just need to be very aware of the skirmish situation to avoid being over run. 24/15 can murder cavalry rather well, honestly.
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: Uumdi on July 11, 2012, 07:42:58 pm

21/21 naked archer w/ hornbow & bodkins vs someone with 50 body armor:  16.4 damage on average  (this one has 165 wpf)
21/18 naked archer w/ hornbow & bodkins vs someone with 50 body armor:  15.7 damage on average  (this one has 156 wpf)
15/27 naked archer w/ hornbow & bodkins vs someone with 50 body armor:  11.8 damage on average  (this one has 182 wpf)

It seems, good sir, that it may be YOU who are making the assumptions here.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: Aderyn on July 11, 2012, 08:43:08 pm
first i'd like to say: No.

Also, you must be new here.
If your curious about the damage, why dont you make an alt Skip The Fun and try the builds out? I can guarantee you the PD will do more dmg. Not to mention less drop when firing the bow since it's a long or rus bow.
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: BlindGuy on July 12, 2012, 12:42:15 am
Your funny Aderyn, I faceshot you your first day bro. Remember, I was the fucker the GO modelled their lvl 35 archers on, they took my name, MADE A CLAN BASED on it. I'm new like the mountains are new.


Anyway, still seems ridiculous to me that I'm rewarded more for being a kiting my old friend. The newest changes nerfed the fuck out of 1handed, I assume that was unintentional, but still no change to the system that makes archers more effective if they have 5PD and loads of athletics. BTW, stop trying to argue with me: Im always right, its written into the fabric of the universe.
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: Tzar on July 12, 2012, 01:46:24 am
Nuuuuuuuurrf!!!!!!
Title: Re: Archery. A discussion.
Post by: genric on July 12, 2012, 04:58:10 am
Your funny Aderyn, I faceshot you your first day bro. Remember, I was the fucker the GO modelled their lvl 35 archers on, they took my name, MADE A CLAN BASED on it. I'm new like the mountains are new.


Anyway, still seems ridiculous to me that I'm rewarded more for being a kiting my old friend. The newest changes nerfed the fuck out of 1handed, I assume that was unintentional, but still no change to the system that makes archers more effective if they have 5PD and loads of athletics. BTW, stop trying to argue with me: Im always right, its written into the fabric of the universe.

If you are always right why open this discussion in the first place?

Seems pretty silly to open an archery discussion and just throw down everyone's words and opinion with "WRONG, NOPE"
It seems the best builds are to be some combination of 15-24 str and 15-24 agi. Which basically goes for everything that you want balance with. you want a build with the most damage? horn bow with 30 str. 10pd would destroy everything. You just can't hit it.