cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Spook Island on July 09, 2012, 04:04:03 pm
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This game has progressively gone downhill during the last couple months because devs kept bowing to the demands of people who felt this game was somehow too complex or difficult to learn and would rather have something easy handed to them on a silver platter.
Polestun really wasn't that big of an issue to fight against and the turn speed nerf was easily the worst thing the dev team has ever done. In a couple months, they'll need to just start calling this game Mount and Mount since the devs are blatantly trying to pidgenhole players into becoming cav or using raged weapons.
Please stop ruining the aspects of the game that make ground melee (the very core of the game) interesting. Stop fixing things that aren't broke to keep yourselves busy.
Otherwise we're going to end up a mod that has become so watered down, watching paint try will be a more entertaining alternative.
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Weren't you supposed to be dead or something?
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Stop claiming that making melee harder makes the game easier.
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Another inf QQing about ranged and cav? so nothing new then
Ill say it for those who are thinking it "Mods dead" thread closed....
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I agree that the Turnspeed nerf is silly, it just makes some classes terrible (such as spearmen/hoplites allthough pikemen still works) while most other classes still arent too affected by it since they have good sideswings.
Polestagger needed to go though, well for most weapons but some spears could use it though.
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Weren't you supposed to be dead or something?
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thank you for your comment, we weren't aware of it, we are obviously ceasing development instantly
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thank you for your comment, we weren't aware of it, we are obviously ceasing development instantly
mod is ded.
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thank you for your comment, we weren't aware of it, we are obviously ceasing development instantly
:lol:
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HE'S TYPING FROM BEYOND THE GRAVE!
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thank you for your comment, we weren't aware of it, we are obviously ceasing development instantly
How long till running/swinging drains stamina?
or jumping is removed from the game?
or it becomes impossible to swing while moving?
Better yet, how long till the new patch comes out where horses are able to carry weapons and their riders are enclosed in armoured cockpits.
We can call it Mount and Mech :lol:
No, but seriously.. I don't understand what your post means. I got the sarcasm part though. Just didn't understand if you were acknowledging the mistakes, mentioning that you were working on repealing them, or simply taking into account that you were overpolishing and thereby rubbing the finish and paint off the product.
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Please go die for realz, thx.
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I agree that the nerfs should have been ended 6 months ago, but I fail to see how they're making it more cav friendly?
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nuub posting nuub stuff, adjust to the changes , they are great changes, im a 2handed main and i think chadz and crew are doing a great job!
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No, but seriously.. I don't understand what your post means. I got the sarcasm part though. Just didn't understand if you were acknowledging the mistakes, mentioning that you were working on repealing them, or simply taking into account that you were overpolishing and thereby rubbing the finish and paint off the product.
I can't tell you, I have to admit I only read the thread title.
This is a perfect example why a good thread title is so important: I can reply to a thread without reading any of the crap inside. Gives me more time to fix things that aren't broken.
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Bad title and poorly written post but he has a point there was no good reason to nerf 1h overheads/stabs and short hoplites... they weren't even strong attacks before and then cmp got all rude and arrogant about it on the forums even though he didn't even seem to know what people were talking about. Pretty bad balance change that we assume was to nerf lolstabs and drag overheads from long, slow weapons but ended up being collaterally a much harder nerf on already weak attacks for shorter weapons (overhead and stab).
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I agree that the nerfs should have been ended 6 months ago, but I fail to see how they're making it more cav friendly?
They are making it more cav friendly by nerfing ground combatants, thereby limiting their effectiveness against cav.
Hence the reason you see most games where the player base consists of about 60% cav or ranged. Especially now that vertical attacks have become obsolete by comparison.
It comes into effect even more blatantly when you realize the primary anti-cav attack (stab) suffered the largest penalty (seriously, who thought this would be a decent idea?).
Who would have seen the day come when horse riders have an easier time maneuvering their own attacks compared to people who aren't relying on an animal, traveling 30mph, to turn for them.
As crazy already mentioned, the nerfs should have ended months ago. Now it seems like the Dev's are breaking things just so they can fix them; essentially creating work for themselves.
Well.. at least I hope to god they at least intend to fix them.
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chadz renown farming again
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I don't know why people have a problem with the thread title. I think it sums up the general idea of of the problem CRPG has run into these past few weeks. The game was great the way it was just 2-3 months ago. Sure, there were a few issues here and there, but they were all extremely minor and didn't take away the magic of the mod the devs worked so hard to create and maintain.
There comes a time when you sharpen a sword so much that what you're left with is a small dagger.
To me, this is the perfect metaphor that represents what went wrong with the last few patches.
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I always want to see new stuff.
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Polestagger removal was the best choice the devs had made in a long while.
Hoping pierce on bodkins gets removed next so we don't have retarded high lvl Snipers/Archers running around making you feel like you a zombie in some random crappy zombie shooter..
Turn speed nerf is annoying but you can work around it with some practice. granted it looks retarded when u have to land some urgent hits but its doable.
wouldn't mind to see it get reverted tho..
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They are making it more cav friendly by nerfing ground combatants, thereby limiting their effectiveness against cav.
The overhead attack nerf only makes melee fights slightly more demanding. What do archery and cav have to do with it, if they already had an inferior melee capability? Your misguied rage threatens your judgement young one.
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I Agree with spook island. We should stop trying to buff/nerf things over and over. Find a good balanced spot and keep it there.
Devs should use their precious time on more important things like new features/new gamemodes/new gear.
We don't need our beloved devs to waste time on things that will always be complained about.
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I Agree with spook island. We should stop trying to buff/nerf things over and over. Find a good balanced spot and keep it there.
Devs should use their precious time on more important things like new features/new gamemodes/new gear.
We don't need our beloved devs to waste time on things that will always be complained about.
I blame the balance team. They would be out of work if they just stopped "balancing things". I swear they implement a nerf or change stats on an item and then the dev's have to clean up the mess.
Nerfing one thing has a domino effect on lots of other classes, playstyles, and equipment. It usually leads to other things needing to be nerfed to compensate and it's a never ending cycle.
Honestly, the game is currently balanced for classes, and I think going back about 6 or 8 months (maybe longer now) the game was even more balanced (before they made pikes/longspears into 3 slots). I don't think there is anything in the game that is "broken" enough to require developer or balance team intervention (in regards to nerfs/buffs).
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The overhead attack nerf only makes melee fights slightly more demanding. What do archery and cav have to do with it, if they already had an inferior melee capability? Your misguied rage threatens your judgement young one.
Cav have couching, speed, and generally weapon length or range on their side, not to mention bumping... Ever seen someone ride around with a steel shield on a plated charger just bumping people instead of fighting?
You can't make the argument cav have inferior melee capability at all. With the new stabbing nerf, there really is no question about it. Hence why you see the rampant overload of cavalry in servers now more than ever before.
And the whole "work around it" excuse is the worst blanket defense there is. The people who should be "working around it" are the people who complained about swinging mechanics that have been in the mod for a couple years now, and were never deemed an issue, until a few pike users ruined some players (who didn't know how to simply block down) day.
I like seeing new additions to CRPG as long as they make the game more exciting and fun, while keeping balance with gameplay.
The recent changes were definitely the complete opposite of such an addition.
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why is it only americans complaining about the changes?? all the players i know whom i deem good and experienced in crpg find the current changes good ones, these are all players with over 2k hours in crpg. ( all that these changes did is making melee have to time theyr releases better, nothing else changed, ..... except for blatantly stupid single player ai ballancing polestagger)
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why is it only americans complaining about the changes?? all the players i know whom i deem good and experienced in crpg find the current changes good ones, these are all players with over 2k hours in crpg. ( all that these changes did is making melee have to time theyr releases better, nothing else changed, ..... except for blatantly stupid single player ai ballancing polestagger)
Honestly, it's a wide consensus on the NA servers, even among Admins, that it's the EU players who seem to be consistently calling for these recent nerfs to be put into place.
I wasn't going to bring it up, but maybe it needs to be addressed as well. I'm guessing that is partly why we saw the polestun nerf be applied to EU before NA.
The vast majority of American players don't want to see ground combat watered down. Quite the opposite. Having cav in the game is a nice feature you don't find in another FPS medieval mods, but ultimately, Melee Combat for footsoldiers will always be the core bread and butter of the game (as it most definitely should be). Simplifying the mechanics to make it easier on newer or less adept players who feel its somehow unfair to be able to pivot while attacking vertically doesn't enrich the gameplay. It only waters it down.
So to your statement, Rufio: Americans only started complaining once EU players decided that melee should be vastly dumbed down for whatever reason still evades me. At this rate in a few months, we won't be able to attack while moving, be able to jump, or even be able to turn into our horizontal swings. Maybe after a year, we'll have autoblock turned on for everybody.
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I like how you bring up the NA vs EU argument after loads of posts with arguments that no one agrees to.
A argument no one can prove or disprove as a final statement, lovely way not to lose an argument (what this post has become) and drag it on to eternity.
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It isn't that EU prefers "watered down" combat and NA prefers "enriched" combat.
It's the fact that some people want an "Arcade" cRPG (where the skill ceiling and skill floor are as far away from one another as possible) and other dudes want a "Realistic" cRPG (where combat isn't the priority, realism is the priority).
Whether someone is NA or EU has nothing to do with which side they are on.
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rufio is cmp's clan buddy of course he will defend silly changes. derp derp americans so bad.
IN absolute terms, melee was dumbed down because 2 directional attacks were made weaker, and they weren't even strong attacks in the first place. For shorter weapons, overhead and stab have become much more difficult to pull off and have a very limited adjustment cone, and you have to be extremely careful when using them. Were they overpowered before? No, they were mediocre and situational, they weren't the best attack. I'm kind of annoyed cuz as a 1h fighter I now have even less options and have to crutch on my left swing even more so the fighting has been made less fun, and no real positive balance taken place since the nerfed things were not even unbalanced.
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rufio is cmp's clan buddy of course he will defend silly changes. derp derp americans so bad.
IN absolute terms, melee was dumbed down because 2 directional attacks were made weaker, and they weren't even strong attacks in the first place. For shorter weapons, overhead and stab have become much more difficult to pull off and have a very limited adjustment cone, and you have to be extremely careful when using them. Were they overpowered before? No, they were mediocre and situational, they weren't the best attack. I'm kind of annoyed cuz as a 1h fighter I now have even less options and have to crutch on my left swing even more so the fighting has been made less fun, and no real positive balance taken place since the nerfed things were not even unbalanced.
Yes things got more difficult... Isnt that a good thing for pro players? You can only excell in things that are too hard for the average player to do... So just opens up possibility's to be a better melee player then "noobs"
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Don't forget about the player who were playing native back in the day. Some players just started on cRPG and never played native, some are the opposite. Some are even playing this game since it was only singleplayer.
Well as a native player that has started the game when it was only singleplayer based, I agree that melee is the core of the original game. So I want to see it as a core part of the game. That's why I completely suck as playing as an archer that can hardly aim and becomes a lvl 1 peasant when it comes to melee. In native, melee is surely the first priority of the game. Archer and obviously infantry does melee in native. Every class do melee at least 40% of the time. In crpg melee is something that only infantry, thrower hybrids and xbowmen do. So, what is left to archers? Only archery. Therefore a new problem arises, infantry mainly don't like to get killed by "cowardly" archers. Because archers always shoot from a distance and will avoid melee by running away. Which makes infantry rage. So they nerf archers. Archers complain. So they nerf infantry. Then Infantry complain and demand justice. So they nerf cav.... Neverending cycle. The balance team completely forgot that this is a game, and they try to balance it as a philosopher seeks the perfection. Needless to say, they fail hardly (in my opinion).
cRPG has the worst balance I've ever seen in a game/mod. I mean, why did you ever nerfed the swing speed. It was much more fun to play with my long espada eslavona back in the day. I never use the method of whining, but that doesn't mean I liked it.
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Yes things got more difficult... Isnt that a good thing for pro players? You can only excell in things that are too hard for the average player to do... So just opens up possibility's to be a better melee player then "noobs"
It wasn't made more "difficult" (poor word use by me), to be more specific I would describe it as being made less useful and more limited. If the target is moving a lot at close range, stab and overhead became fairly unviable for attack options so I just lean more on swings (left swing) instead whereas before I could actually pull off a nice overhead where I tracked the target 90 degrees turning with him or into him. I fail to see any improvement in gameplay here.
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Yes things got more difficult... Isnt that a good thing for pro players? You can only excell in things that are too hard for the average player to do... So just opens up possibility's to be a better melee player then "noobs"
I had a feeling somebody would try this argument.
Thankfully, I'm more than prepared for it.
Simplifying anything doesn't make it better for pro players because there is more limitation, less of a ceiling, a closer gap between talent and novice. It'd be like if you changed the tiles on a chess board from 64 to 48. Less complexity = bad for players who naturally excel because you just shrank the possibility of potential by a sizable amount.
Less room for melee potential = better for players who aren't very adept or skilled because the gap is tighter between them and veterans.
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A chess board with 64 or with 48... in the end there s still one losing 1 winning. the winner is most likely the one with higher skills.
A while ago with the higher turn speed everyone could land a hit with a pike turn. Now i requires more skill with the pike.
A while ago with the pole stagger it took less skill to land that second hit cause of the stagger, now you dont get a free second swing.
These chagnes didnt lower the roof, they raised it.
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Last i checked stabs and overheads do the same amount of damage. Heck, with changed sweetspots, average damage is even higher.
How does making pulling them off HARDER makes combat SIMPLER/SHALLOWER/EASIER?
Does logic work different that side of the ocean? i dont even
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Last i checked stabs and overheads do the same amount of damage. Heck, with changed sweetspots, average damage is even higher.
How does making pulling them off HARDER makes combat SIMPLER/SHALLOWER/EASIER?
Does logic work different that side of the ocean? i dont even
Why would you even bring up NA vs EU? Does stereotyping work the same over there as it does over here? You do realize stereotyping is a logical fallacy, so it's kind of ironic for you to be talking about logic in the same sentence you use a logical fallacy.
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It isn't that EU prefers "watered down" combat and NA prefers "enriched" combat.
It's the fact that some people want an "Arcade" cRPG (where the skill ceiling and skill floor are as far away from one another as possible) and other dudes want a "Realistic" cRPG (where combat isn't the priority, realism is the priority).
Whether someone is NA or EU has nothing to do with which side they are on.
Unfortunately for those people, there is nothing unrealistic about being able to do a spinning overhead attack or spinning stab.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V82Ps95DIxk
I'm fairly certain if it's possible to perform a spinning roundhouse kick such as the one performed in the video I just posted, I don't think using your hands and arms to perform a spinning vertical attack with a melee weapon would be anywhere near as hard.
This isn't a question of realism. People are smart enough to know such attacks are possible and don't require much training.
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rufio is cmp's clan buddy of course he will defend silly changes. derp derp americans so bad.
You cannot call me cmp's buddy, yet i agree that changes were good.
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Whether someone is NA or EU has nothing to do with which side they are on.
I disagree.
Americans tend to think that America is the world, and they are just pissed that in crpg its Austria which is calling the shots.
Hint for readers born in the USA: Austria (in this context) is not short for Australia
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Last i checked stabs and overheads do the same amount of damage. Heck, with changed sweetspots, average damage is even higher.
How does making pulling them off HARDER makes combat SIMPLER/SHALLOWER/EASIER?
Does logic work different that side of the ocean? i dont even
Overhead attacks don't do pierce damage unless its with a pierce specific weapon like a morningstar. Stabs do. Hence your statement about doing the same amount of damage is clearly inaccurate.
Btw, I already explained how it makes combat simpler, shallower, and easier for novices compared to veterans.
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I disagree.
Americans tend to think that America is the world, and they are just pissed that in crpg its Austria which is calling the shots.
Hint for readers born in the USA: Austria (in this context) is not short for Australia
You're an idiot
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Why would you even bring up NA vs EU? Does stereotyping work the same over there as it does over here? You do realize stereotyping is a logical fallacy, so it's kind of ironic for you to be talking about logic in the same sentence you use a logical fallacy.
I replied to this.
The vast majority of American players don't want to see ground combat watered down. Quite the opposite.
I disagree.
Americans tend to think that America is the world, and they are just pissed that in crpg its Austria which is calling the shots.
Hint for readers born in the USA: Austria (in this context) is not short for Australia
Oh, hey, Michael posting! I was hurting to - this one :)
Overhead attacks don't do pierce damage unless its with a pierce specific weapon like a morningstar. Stabs do. Hence your statement about doing the same amount of damage is clearly inaccurate.
Btw, I already explained how it makes combat simpler, shallower, and easier for novices compared to veterans.
wat.
That was in reply to
IN absolute terms, melee was dumbed down because 2 directional attacks were made weaker, and they weren't even strong attacks in the first place.
Also, yeah, i'm sure that novices are having a way easier time leading/following their targets in melee. Totally.
Have you ever thought that the problem might be in you?
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I disagree.
Americans tend to think that America is the world, and they are just pissed that in crpg its Austria which is calling the shots.
Hint for readers born in the USA: Austria (in this context) is not short for Australia
Honestly, I think I speak for all Americans when I say you can water down your combat mechanics as much as you want over on the EU servers as long as it doesn't interfere with warfare over on the NA servers.
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Unfortunately for those people, there is nothing unrealistic about being able to do a spinning overhead attack or spinning stab.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V82Ps95DIxk
I'm fairly certain if it's possible to perform a spinning roundhouse kick such as the one performed in the video I just posted, I don't think using your hands and arms to perform a spinning vertical attack with a melee weapon would be anywhere near as hard.
This isn't a question of realism. People are smart enough to know such attacks are possible and don't require much training.
Omg how can you compare a kick in ninja clothing with a stabbing attack with a 3m long pike around a corner wearing heavy armor...
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A chess board with 64 or with 48... in the end there s still one losing 1 winning. the winner is most likely the one with higher skills.
A while ago with the higher turn speed everyone could land a hit with a pike turn. Now i requires more skill with the pike.
A while ago with the pole stagger it took less skill to land that second hit cause of the stagger, now you dont get a free second swing.
These chagnes didnt lower the roof, they raised it.
Are you saying that a game on a 48 tile chessboard is harder and or more complex than a game on a 64 tile chessboard?
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Last i checked stabs and overheads do the same amount of damage. Heck, with changed sweetspots, average damage is even higher.
How does making pulling them off HARDER makes combat SIMPLER/SHALLOWER/EASIER?
Does logic work different that side of the ocean? i dont even
The only "harder" was created through adding a 30 degree adjustment limit, which is not really adding much skill to the attacks use, just limiting usefulness of certain (previously mediocre) attacks since moving targets often move out of that 30 degree range between swing start and contact, ESPECIALLY at point blank range relative to long range (which is why it nerfs a short 1h weapon more than a pike/longspear).
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Americans are conceited bigots.
Yeah, sure, whatever you say, man.
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Are you saying that a game on a 48 tile chessboard is harder and or more complex than a game on a 64 tile chessboard?
read the other 2 lines?
If you are in a discussion please read everything, not just the first line:
A while ago with the higher turn speed everyone could land a hit with a pike turn. Now i requires more skill with the pike.
A while ago with the pole stagger it took less skill to land that second hit cause of the stagger, now you dont get a free second swing.
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Omg how can you compare a kick in ninja clothing with a stabbing attack with a 3m long pike around a corner wearing heavy armor...
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Because that kick is a hell of a lot harder to pull off and requires vastly more training than what we're talking about but is still realistically possible to perform.
Remember something important. This isn't you personally slapping on some armor and picking up a sword then rushing off to battle.
The game isn't based off your athletic ability or lack thereof. Maybe that is partly the reason why you think it impossible to turn while stabbing or attacking from overhead.
We're playing with characters who have trained the majority of their lives to fight with the weapons they carry and are proficient with.
Remember those skills "weapon mastery" you put points into?
Remember that "Age" that pops up every time you level up?
Are you telling me it's completely unrealistic for someone who has mastered certain weapon styles, for their entire life, to be able to attack horizontally while turning?
Is that what you're trying to tell me?
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I gave the example with the 3m long pike...
We are also talking about heavily armored men that didnt go to ninja school...
One does not simply jump while making a 360 spin wearing plate armors... even without the jump its not realistic.
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read the other 2 lines?
If you are in a discussion please read everything, not just the first line:
A while ago with the higher turn speed everyone could land a hit with a pike turn. Now i requires more skill with the pike.
A while ago with the pole stagger it took less skill to land that second hit cause of the stagger, now you dont get a free second swing.
I'm asking you to answer the essential question, revolving around the turning speed nerf, that we both know will run counter intuitive to the point you're trying to make.
Meanwhile you're trying to diverge into lesser gray areas that impact specific weapon types like polearms while avoiding the question we both already know the answer to.
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You are seriously telling me to stay on the grey area? Keep talking in vague terms without giving actual examples?
Yes im talkign about the turning speed nerf and yes im giving real in game examples to show its more realistic and harder to use... Whats wrong with that?
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I gave the example with the 3m long pike...
We are also talking about heavily armored men that didnt go to ninja school...
One does not simply jump while making a 360 spin wearing plate armors... even without the jump its not realistic.
You're telling me somebody who has trained their entire life to master a weapon style wouldn't be able to realistically spin and perform a stab while doing it?
Want me to show you a few clips of Chinese classically trained dance/martial artist demonstrations?
Also, how realistic is it that such a weapon style would only be able to attack by stabbing or using an extremely slow overhead attack?
Yes, that realism discussion goes both ways I'm afraid and can just as easily be used against your argument.
By the way, I've never seen a pike spinner use any attack other than stab. I have no idea why some people find that somehow difficult to fight.
Hold block down and you always win.
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You are seriously telling me to stay on the grey area? Keep talking in vague terms without giving actual examples?
Yes im talkign about the turning speed nerf and yes im giving real in game examples to show its more realistic and harder to use... Whats wrong with that?
No, I'm not telling you to stay in the grey area; quite the opposite. I'm asking you to answer the question I put forward. How many times do I have to ask you to answer it?
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Sorry for givign imput to this discussion, after this post i will let your buddy cuddle up with you again and let the admins farm + votes again.
Yes im saying that even with the training soldiers got at those time it is NOT POSSIBLE to perform a (jumping) spinning attack with a pike while wearing plate armor.
+ yes you said: Meanwhile you're trying to diverge into lesser gray areas
Logic doesnt reach certain guys, too bad, end of discussion for me here.
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I get the impression English isn't your native language.
No matter...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2p46I57Fvc
Go to 20 seconds into that video.
Consider yourself proven clearly and undeniably wrong.
The funny thing is that guy isn't even nearly as well trained or honed as you would see someone from who had studied his entire life.
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Cant help myself:
Imagine that guy doing it with a much longer pike wearing plate armor. cant turn it like that without going through the floor. cant move like that with heavy armor.
+ AWESOME ARGUMENT!! Telling me english isnt my native language, that really adds depth to this discussion.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2p46I57Fvc
Oh, i get it, you are trolling us.
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Cant help myself:
Imagine that guy doing it with a much longer pike wearing plate armor. cant turn it like that without going through the floor. cant move like that with heavy armor.
But.... a second ago you said such moves weren't possible....
Clearly, they are.
It's okay to admit you were wrong. Shows character.
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I think you mix up "fixing" with "improving" in general. Banana leafs were not broken, but yet we are using toilet paper these days.
The developers have their very own idea of how the game should be like, and the helicopter moves from older versions of the game apparently didn't fit to it. So they got removed.
And if you will come up with the popular argument of dumbing melee down: depends. One could argue that more restrictions make melee more difficult, and a more difficult melee requires more skill.
And perhaps the developers want to improve teamplay and collaboration between the different classes, and if the price is "dumbing down" melee, then be it! And suddenly pikemen can't jump (I hate jumpthrusts anyway, look retarded, remove them!) and spin like mad to win 1 on 1 duels (or even more enemies simultaneously :shock: ) any more, but are forced to follow other players to support them from the second row. Because that is the idea the developers have of the game.
Players always have following point of view:
"How can I maximize my performance with my/any class?"
But developers have this point of view:
"How should the game feel and be played like, and how can I make the players doing so?"
P.S.: still I feel sorry for the first replies you got. That's in no way acceptable, and I hope it doesn't represent the majority of the community. Telling someone to go and die is not nice and should not be said unless the person really really really REALLY REALLY tried to piss everyone off, behaved totally unacceptable and seems not only to be, but also deliberately behaving like an asshole. WHich I couldn't find in your OP.
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But.... a second ago you said such moves weren't possible....
Clearly, they are.
It's okay to admit you were wrong. Shows character.
Again.. READ
Yes im saying that even with the training soldiers got at those time it is NOT POSSIBLE to perform a (jumping) spinning attack with a pike while wearing plate armor.
I said this move isnt possible in PLATE ARMOR with the training a SOLDIER gets.
That guys trainign looks more like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKVLlrp3lN0
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P.S.: Imagine jumping and spinning here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrVbr4vIGgg).
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P.S.: still I feel sorry for the first replies you got. That's in no way acceptable, and I hope it doesn't represent the majority of the community. Telling someone to go and die is not nice and should not be said unless the person really really really REALLY REALLY tried to piss everyone off, behaved totally unacceptable and seems not only to be, but also deliberately behaving like an asshole. WHich I couldn't find in your OP.
You do know he faked his own "tragic" death to get at the community here?
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True that, a pikeman didnt get trained in fast spinning attacks...
But the turnspeed nerf has been posted before, this was to tell devs stop fixing things that dont need fixing.
So back to the main issue, i'd say they are doing an awesome job in improving this mod and i dont see your problems...
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You do know he faked his own "tragic" death to get at the community here?
I did not.
Still having faked his own death and later complaining about a change doesn't really justify a death sentence by the community, I'd say. :P
Being a polite and kind person doesn't mean to be kind and polite only when the other person is, too. :wink:
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I think you mix up "fixing" with "improving" in general. Banana leafs were not broken, but yet we are using toilet paper these days.
The developers have their very own idea of how the game should be like, and the helicopter moves from older versions of the game apparently didn't fit to it. So they got removed.
And if you will come up with the popular argument of dumbing melee down: depends. One could argue that more restrictions make melee more difficult, and a more difficult melee requires more skill.
And perhaps the developers want to improve teamplay and collaboration between the different classes, and if the price is "dumbing down" melee, then be it! And suddenly pikemen can't jump (I hate jumpthrusts anyway, look retarded, remove them!) and spin like mad to win 1 on 1 duels (or even more enemies simultaneously :shock: ) any more, but are forced to follow other players to support them from the second row. Because that is the idea the developers have of the game.
Players always have following point of view:
"How can I maximize my performance with my/any class?"
But developers have this point of view:
"How should the game feel and being played like, and how can I make the players doing so?"
P.S.: still I feel sorry for the first replies you got. That's in no way acceptable, and I hope it doesn't represent the majority of the community. Telling someone to go and die is not nice and should not be said unless the person really really really REALLY REALLY tried to piss everyone off, behaved totally unacceptable and seems not only to be, but also deliberately behaving like an asshole. WHich I couldn't find in your OP.
Removing individual capability to "force" desired styles of teamplay is an extremely slippery slope that leads nowhere but down. Also, no offense to the balance team, but I am 100% sure that is not what they were trying to do. Instead I believe they were creating another mess for themselves to have to clean up; inspired by completely unreasonable demands on what constitutes as "realistic" in a game that is already rather limited in terms of what moves can be performed.
As the videos I've posted in this topic have shown, their idea of "realistic" is extremely limited compared to what is reasonably capable and proven (even by amateurs on youtube) by what well disciplined and lifelong trained-warriors can handle; such as those who would exist on such battlefields as those we wage war on.
This same slippery slope argument could apply to further unreasonable nerfs that would also serve to remove excitement and instill strict limitations, proven unrealistic, on players. Also, why should ground combatants have to make such drastic sacrifices while cavalry and ranged are free to continue roaming however they'd like uninhibited.
Ground combat is the core of the game. It should be the most robust, exciting, and versatile if it is to stay that way.
The new spin nerf has taken a rather gigantic leap toward eroding that.
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You do know he faked his own "tragic" death to get at the community here?
I didn't fake anything. There are multiple people that use this account.
It's just that you realize you don't have an argument at this point and instead go for any scrap you can muster to make your point which is rooted in emotion rather than realism and intellectual honesty.
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Yes you did youre RepoMan
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why is it only americans complaining about the changes?
Fuck you, Bjord is complaining, and Spook is a ghost, not a real American.
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P.S.: Imagine jumping and spinning here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrVbr4vIGgg).
We can't exactly crouch or crawl either :lol:
But I think the main point here is that we sacrifice some ability in certain areas to perhaps have more ability in other areas.
The total argument I've seen for realism in this topic has relied solely off the idea of spinning with one completely specific weapon: the pike.
If we're going to remove an entire game mechanic because it may not be entirely 100% realistic and copacetic with one extremely specific weapon, then you have a sure-fire recipe for destroying this mod in no-time at all.
It isn't entirely realistic for a horse to hit a tree head-first, riding 30 mph, and take no damage, does that mean we should remove horses from the game because it doesn't gel with how we feel the game should realistically play? I'll tell you right now that is a lot more unrealistic than this pike spinning people are using to crucify vertical spinning.
There comes a point when you just have to say "okay I'm playing a game and it's not worth ruining just because everything might not be 100% realistic in my eyes."
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Yes and the thing is that most players think its going right now and a small group thinks the mod is raped.
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Yes and the thing is that most players think its going right now and a small group thinks the mod is raped.
There was a poll in one of the suggestion topics discussing improving the turning speed and there were roughly 10% more for improving the speed than against. I can go find the topic if you'd like to see it. The majority of people I've talked to feel the same way, but many haven't bothered to speak up because they feel it's useless to do so and that there's "no point."
Sadly, a lot of NA players are starting to get under the impression this game is held hostage by the complaints of EU players only.
I don't know if they are right or not. Depending on the result of this nerf repeal I guess we'll find out.
But I have no desire to compromise on this issue.
They need to repeal the entire nerf and admit they made a mistake based off kneejerk reactions to pikespinning.
I'm usually all for compromise to solve a problem, but not when one side is so completely wrong.
You have to draw a line in the sand eventually, and this is that time for me personally.
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We can't exactly crouch or crawl either :lol:
But I think the main point here is that we sacrifice some ability in certain areas to perhaps have more ability in other areas.
The total argument I've seen for realism in this topic has relied solely off the idea of spinning with one completely specific weapon: the pike.
If we're going to remove an entire game mechanic because it may not be entirely 100% realistic and copacetic with one extremely specific weapon, then you have a sure-fire recipe for destroying this mod in no-time at all.
It isn't entirely realistic for a horse to hit a tree head-first, riding 30 mph, and take no damage, does that mean we should remove horses from the game because it doesn't gel with how we feel the game should realistically play? I'll tell you right now that is a lot more unrealistic than this pike spinning people are using to crucify vertical spinning.
There comes a point when you just have to say "okay I'm playing a game and it's not worth ruining just because everything might not be 100% realistic in my eyes."
Derp, if you died once STAY DEAD at least. Attention whore.
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As the videos I've posted in this topic have shown, their idea of "realistic" is extremely limited compared to what is reasonably capable and proven (even by amateurs on youtube) by what well disciplined and lifelong trained-warriors can handle; such as those who would exist on such battlefields as those we wage war on.
Although I think realism has very little to do with a matter like developing cRPG (or balance questions in general), but I don't think that spinning and jumping were common techniques on the battlefields. So if the goal is to make the game look more realistic, I have to say: mission accomplished!
A fat Chinaman wildly swinging a toy spear around without wearing armour or the intention to pierce some armour with his weapon doesn't make spin jumps realistic.
Removing individual capability to "force" desired styles of teamplay is an extremely slippery slope that leads nowhere but down.
That's plainly and simply wrong. Limitations and weaknesses are one of the most basic game design elements at all.
Also, no offense to the balance team, but I am 100% sure that is not what they were trying to do. Instead I believe they were creating another mess for themselves to have to clean up; inspired by completely unreasonable demands on what constitutes as "realistic" in a game that is already rather limited in terms of what moves can be performed.
While I agree on the limitations the game puts on realism, I have to say the first part is nowhere near to being taken seriously. You really want to imply that the developers deliberately break their game to fix it afterwards to... eermm... well... not being forced to say one day: "Mod finished"? Really? :shock:
This same slippery slope argument could apply to further unreasonable nerfs that would also serve to remove excitement and instill strict limitations, proven unrealistic, on players.
Yes, it could apply to further nerfs. And just to put things right: you haven't proven that spinning with long, heavy weapons (not a 1,7m bamboo mini spear) is well doable, nor is excitement something objectively measurable. To me cooperation with other players is excitement. I play a BF2 mod which is called "Project Reality". If you stand still for a few seconds, you weapon hits where it is aiming at, and one or two bullets lready kill. When moving, you can't hit the broad side of a barn. If you encounter two or more enemies on your own, chances are almost 100% you will die. You need to work with your teammates, listen to the suqad leader and team commander, and communitcate constantly. There is no "skill" like aiming and reflexes involved at all. The game is tremendous fun.
The only question left is: do the developers want a Counter Strike game, or rather something like I just described? If it is latter, you have bad luck, as you can't do anything about it. It's the wrong game for you. But most likely they want something in between, which means both of us can get satisfied with the game, but none of us will be 100% conent. We both have to deal with it.
Also, why should ground combatants have to make such drastic sacrifices while cavalry and ranged are free to continue roaming however they'd like uninhibited.
The sacrifice isn't that drastic, and archers and cavalry have suffered a lot of nerfs before. Really a lot.
Ground combat is the core of the game. It should be the most robust, exciting, and versatile if it is to stay that way.
The new spin nerf has taken a rather gigantic leap toward eroding that.
I guess it's not to stay that way. :?
We can't exactly crouch or crawl either :lol:
But I think the main point here is that we sacrifice some ability in certain areas to perhaps have more ability in other areas.
The total argument I've seen for realism in this topic has relied solely off the idea of spinning with one completely specific weapon: the pike.
If we're going to remove an entire game mechanic because it may not be entirely 100% realistic and copacetic with one extremely specific weapon, then you have a sure-fire recipe for destroying this mod in no-time at all.
It isn't entirely realistic for a horse to hit a tree head-first, riding 30 mph, and take no damage, does that mean we should remove horses from the game because it doesn't gel with how we feel the game should realistically play? I'll tell you right now that is a lot more unrealistic than this pike spinning people are using to crucify vertical spinning.
There comes a point when you just have to say "okay I'm playing a game and it's not worth ruining just because everything might not be 100% realistic in my eyes."
As I said, I don't like realism arguments either. But on the other hand it doesn't hurt to make it a bit more realistic where it's possible.
And many people, me included, think that spin stabs and overheads are a lame mechanic. People are not supposed to turn their back towards the enemy, stabbing is supposed to work in a straight line, not in a circle, same for overheads, and that's it. Yes, you got less possibilities than before. Just accept the fact that you actually never have been supposed to have those possibilities. Because all of YOUR arguments would also apply on a bug where everyone was able to jump 20m, with all the other gameplay impacts this would bring like maulers airstriking into the enemy cluster, knocking an archer down and jumping away before the rest realizes what just happened.
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There was a poll in one of the suggestion topics discussing improving the turning speed and there were roughly 10% more for improving the speed than against. I can go find the topic if you'd like to see it. The majority of people I've talked to feel the same way, but many haven't bothered to speak up because they feel it's useless to do so and that there's "no point."
Asking the majority of all players how the game should work is not a good plan... :wink:
But I have no desire to compromise on this issue.
They need to repeal the entire nerf and admit they made a mistake based off kneejerk reactions to pikespinning.
I'm usually all for compromise to solve a problem, but not when one side is so completely wrong.
You have to draw a line in the sand eventually, and this is that time for me personally.
You are presenting opinions as facts. I think the nerf was a great success. You should now admit you were wrong.
:wink:
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cav is not op... it is very eazy to counter.
new turn nerfs do require more skill, you can achieve the same as you could before , it just takes better timing, basicly before you could release and turn and you would hit enything within that arc, making it incredibly eazymode, nothing skillfull about it, now you need to take into account that u dont get a free hit on the whole arc , you need to choose better when to release and when to imply your smaller hit arc. you cannot counter this with eny argument, saying this mechanic is dumbing down the game , and comparing it to chess pieces and outcomes is FUCKIN RETARDED! there i said it.
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Asking the majority of all players how the game should work is not a good plan... :wink:
You are presenting opinions as facts. I think the nerf was a great success. You should now admit you were wrong.
:wink:
I'd rather ask all players about how the game should handle than a special, privileged few. It's must better for the community as a whole.
I believe most people would rather have it the same way.
Also, I've already proven factually they are wrong. People can realistically turn while swinging or stabbing. That youtube video of the amateur chinese spearman completely discredited the entire argument against the realism of it despite what anybody may say. That is a fact. I'd be more than happy to repeat the message in simpler terms for anyone who didn't quite get it the first time around. Most of the time "seeing is believing" but I can always try putting it up in simpler terms for our more stubborn patrons.
The was nerf was unrealistic - I've proven this is a fact and this was the core argument for it being instated in the first place.
A poll was performed and those who were for increasing the turn speed won out over those who were against. This is also a fact.
So we've basically shot down the argument for the nerf and proven that is was wildly unpopular.
I'd say that pretty much removes any doubt that the nerf was in fact a failure.
The evidence more than speaks for itself.
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cav is not op... it is very eazy to counter.
new turn nerfs do require more skill, you can achieve the same as you could before , it just takes better timing, basicly before you could release and turn and you would hit enything within that arc, making it incredibly eazymode, nothing skillfull about it, now you need to take into account that u dont get a free hit on the whole arc , you need to choose better when to release and when to imply your smaller hit arc. you cannot counter this with eny argument, saying this mechanic is dumbing down the game , and comparing it to chess pieces and outcomes is FUCKIN RETARDED! there i said it.
Drastically limiting gameplay mechanics is still drastically limiting gameplay mechanics. No matter how you cut it.
The Chess metaphor and resulting question was a perfect correlation question. That is exactly the reason the user I asked to answer it refused to do so. However, not only did he refuse to answer the question, he also refused any attempt to reframe that same argument without diverting into gray areas that were more just a deflection than anything.
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If the reason you are putting a nerf into effect has the core of its foundation for being there completely discredited with visual evidence...
And a poll conducted shows that same nerf is wildly unpopular with the majority of those surveyed...
There is no logical way you can say such a nerf was in any way successful.
To do so would be a blatant fabrication of reality.
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I don't think of it as a "nerf to turn speed".
I think of it as a "buff to sidestepping/dodging".
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Keep nerfing 2h please.
It reinforces that I'm better than everyone else.
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I don't think of it as a "nerf to turn speed".
I think of it as a "buff to sidestepping/dodging".
I appreciate the optimistic outlook, but the simple fact is that movement speed wasn't increase. Therefore, sidestepping and dodging was in no way buffed.
However, turn speed for vertical attacks was most definitely removed to the highest degree. Therefore, turn speed for vertical attacks was nerfed to the highest degree it possibly could be.
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The was nerf was unrealistic - I've proven this is a fact and this was the core argument for it being instated in the first place.
Again: it was a small bamboo spear, not a medieval ashwood pike or something similar massive, the guy who swung it swung it only with focus on speed, and not with focus on power to penetrate an enemies armour. There are good historic sources about fighting with pikes, not a single one mentions jumping and spinning. When you spin, you can't see what you will be hitting, because you have no eyes in the back of your head. Performing a SIDEWAYS movement while stabbing AWAY from you will only result in glancing and the shaft breaking, if you hit the target at all.
I want you to perform a video, where you take a real, medieval spear which was definitely heavier than the spear from the video, put on armour, then equip a straw puppet with armour, place yourself with the back to the puppet, take the spear, start a stab, turn around before you reached your maximum reach, hit the target and penetrate the armour without glancing or breaking the shaft. If you have done that, you have proven it is realistically possible. Which didn't prove at all if it has been done that way. Yes, you can fire two pistols at the same time, on in each hand. Still I'd like you to show me a single police or military unit where this is tought. (The few south American cowboy policemen raiding favelas don't really count).
Unless you've done so you've proven NOTHING.
A poll was performed and those who were for increasing the turn speed won out over those who were against. This is also a fact.
This also proves NOTHING. It's not like everybody is completely unbiased, and everybody has a good overview about game balance or knows much about game design at all. Even if they think so.
I am really interested in game design, and it is what I am going to study this fall, but already in that time where I was only following the game design processes of several games I learned so much, that if I think back what I was thinking some time ago about a few game design questions and how "obvious" the "right" answer is, I recommend everyone to shut up.
That's why I think to better NOT ask the players. In the end, mod development is not a democracy, because unlike in a democracy, where the taxes of the people pay the politicians (next to the bribes from the industrialists), nobody pays the developers of a mod.
So we've basically shot down the argument for the nerf and proven that is was wildly unpopular.
I'd say that pretty much removes any doubt that the nerf was in fact a failure.
The evidence more than speaks for itself.
The devs ONLY can decide if it was a failure or not. If the game plays now how they want it (even if they want it boring, and the game plays boring now), it was a success.
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l
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Drastically limiting gameplay mechanics is still drastically limiting gameplay mechanics. No matter how you cut it.
Game mechanics are not everything. By the way it's only a fighting mechanic, not a game mechanic. With that nerf teamplay got buffed. Which means the focus on different mechanics got shifted, that's all.
If the reason you are putting a nerf into effect has the core of its foundation for being there completely discredited with visual evidence...
And a poll conducted shows that same nerf is wildly unpopular with the majority of those surveyed...
There is no logical way you can say such a nerf was in any way successful.
To do so would be a blatant fabrication of reality.
Let's try it a different way:
tell me why the game NEEDS spin stabs. (Without reality argument).
And then tell me, if we implement spin stabs, why, with the same arguments you gave for spins stabs, we should not have 20m jumps without fall damage. Where will be the differences in argumentation? I am highly curious! :D
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Again: it was a small bamboo spear, not a medieval ashwood pike or something similar massive, the guy who swung it swung it only with focus on speed, and not with focus on power to penetrate an enemies armour. There are good historic sources about fighting with pikes, not a single one mentions jumping and spinning. When you spin, you can't see what you will be hitting, because you have no eyes in the back of your head. Performing a SIDEWAYS movement while stabbing AWAY from you will only result in glancing and the shaft breaking, if you hit the target at all.
I want you to perform a video, where you take a real, medieval spear which was definitely heavier than the spear from the video, put on armour, then equip a straw puppet with armour, place yourself with the back to the puppet, take the spear, start a stab, turn around before you reached your maximum reach, hit the target and penetrate the armour without glancing or breaking the shaft. If you have done that, you have proven it is realistically possible. Which didn't prove at all if it has been done that way. Yes, you can fire two pistols at the same time, on in each hand. Still I'd like you to show me a single police or military unit where this is tought. (The few south American cowboy policemen raiding favelas don't really count).
Unless you've done so you've proven NOTHING.
This also proves NOTHING. It's not like everybody is completely unbiased, and everybody has a good overview about game balance or knows much about game design at all. Even if they think so.
I am really interested in game design, and it is what I am going to study this fall, but already in that time where I was only following the game design processes of several games I learned so much, that if I think back what I was thinking some time ago about a few game design questions and how "obvious" the "right" answer is, I recommend everyone to shut up.
That's why I think to better NOT ask the players. In the end, mod development is not a democracy, because unlike in a democracy, where the taxes of the people pay the politicians (next to the bribes from the industrialists), nobody pays the developers of a mod.
The devs ONLY can decide if it was a failure or not. If the game plays now how they want it (even if they want it boring, and the game plays boring now), it was a success.
1. If you're telling me that a blatant stab such as the one demonstrated in that video at 22 seconds in, wouldn't ever pierce, then quite frankly you're lying. How about I take your method of argument, dress you up in some leather armor, mail, etc.. and asked you to stand in front of that guy while he performs that same move with the intention to inflict bodily harm... we both know you would never agree to that. Because you would get stabbed in the chest most possibly with mortal consequence.
If i wanted to perfectly mimic your argument style in this recent post, I would say "you have proved nothing" the minute you will soon refuse to do such a test. Unfortunately, this is not a strong or even decent argument because we both know how unrealistic it would be for either of us to go out an immediately perform either test. However, I will say it is far more likely that I perform such a spinning move than you ever agree to face down a stab like that. :wink:
2. He doesn't need eyes in the back of his head because he lines up his target before initiating the move, has room to adjust for movement during mid stab (just like we used to in-game before people whined unreasonably and had it removed), and has something called peripheral vision which is also taken into account via the third person camera we all utilize in melee combat.
3. Ask most fighters, such as boxers, and they will tell you it's more about speed than power. However, this basic fighting knowledge runs completely counter intuitive to what you initially proposed.
"the guy who swung it swung it only with focus on speed, and not with focus on power to penetrate an enemies armour..."
http://www.martiallife.com/index.php/component/content/article/4-personal-development/44-the-science-of-punching-harder-why-is-speed-more-important-than-mass.html
4. If the developers took your dictator style of game balance into account, this nerf never would have went forward in the first place. Remember, it was pushed into place because of complaints by certain players (mainly EU judging by the looks of things). So it appears as you have found yourself in a catch 22. Therefore, this point is completely irrelevant. Remember, these mechanics have been around for well over 2 years so don't even attempt to try to get it twisted. It won't work.
5. And no, the community has every right to (and should) decide on whether or not this patch was a failure and they did. Success isn't measured by how well it performs in the mind of it's creator. It's measured by how well it's received by the people it was put into place for. A.K.A. The community.
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I appreciate the optimistic outlook, but the simple fact is that movement speed wasn't increase. Therefore, sidestepping and dodging was in no way buffed.
However, turn speed for vertical attacks was most definitely removed to the highest degree. Therefore, turn speed for vertical attacks was nerfed to the highest degree it possibly could be.
True that. But as it was virtually impossible to sidestep before, it now actually is possible. We did have the speed to sidestep before, it just never worked because of the "lol, I drag my weapon into you from the side and do full overhead/stab damage" trick bullshit that was before. That thing never made sense to me and is why I really like the change. Regarding melee depth, it made dodging a 2 dimension thing instead of a 1 dimension thing.
Sure spook, we might be able to turn our stabs/overhead more IRL than in the game, but I highly doubt it would do the same amount of damage. Maybe some sort of "side hitting" damage would work (hitting with the flat of the blade when you turn an overhead into someone). As cmp also suggested, giving shorter/lighter weapons slightly more turning ability would also make more sense, and I support that.
Although to be honest, while the turning was nerfed it really was only for when the swing is active. Take that chinaman in the video: He didn't really start the start the stab in one direction and then turn it to the side. It was a jump with a twirl where he always stabbed in the same direction (straight to the front from where he was facing) and the stab itself never rotated sideways at all. Same ingame, you can jump and twirl around 360 holding an attack chambered, it's just when you release the chamber that you can't turn so much. If you did an attack designed to turn to the sides, that would be pretty much like the sideswings we have, not the overhead/stab.
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Game mechanics are not everything. By the way it's only a fighting mechanic, not a game mechanic. With that nerf teamplay got buffed. Which means the focus on different mechanics got shifted, that's all.
Let's try it a different way:
tell me why the game NEEDS spin stabs. (Without reality argument).
And then tell me, if we implement spin stabs, why, with the same arguments you gave for spins stabs, we should not have 20m jumps without fall damage. Where will be the differences in argumentation? I am highly curious! :D
Why do we need spin stabs? Easy. Because they are perfectly realistic (AS VISUALLY DEMONSTRATED), make the game more exciting, and give players who don't have a lot of options for attacking (spear/pikemen) more moves to help fight enemies who actually know how to block down.
Frankly the "why do we need anything" that fits into the realistic category is a really terrible attitude to have that will only lead to the game being watered down as I have repeatedly said it has been.
Why do we need feinting?
Why do we need kicks?
Why do we need jumps?
Why do we need anything that makes this game remotely exciting despite being perfectly realistic.
See where I'm going with this?
It's a flawed method of thinking and a losing argument no matter how you cut it.
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True that. But as it was virtually impossible to sidestep before, it now actually is possible. We did have the speed to sidestep before, it just never worked because of the "lol, I drag my weapon into you from the side and do full overhead/stab damage" trick bullshit that was before. That thing never made sense to me and is why I really like the change. Regarding melee depth, it made dodging a 2 dimension thing instead of a 1 dimension thing.
Sure spook, we might be able to turn our stabs/overhead more IRL than in the game, but I highly doubt it would do the same amount of damage. Maybe some sort of "side hitting" damage would work (hitting with the flat of the blade when you turn an overhead into someone). As cmp also suggested, giving shorter/lighter weapons slightly more turning ability would also make more sense, and I support that.
Although to be honest, while the turning was nerfed it really was only for when the swing is active. Take that chinaman in the video: He didn't really start the start the stab in one direction and then turn it to the side. It was a jump with a twirl where he always stabbed in the same direction (straight to the front from where he was facing) and the stab itself never rotated sideways at all. Same ingame, you can jump and twirl around 360 holding an attack chambered, it's just when you release the chamber that you can't turn so much. If you did an attack designed to turn to the sides, that would be pretty much like the sideswings we have, not the overhead/stab.
The chinamen wasn't adjusting his stab mid swing because he wasn't trying to attack a moving target or giving a demonstration of how to do anything other than show the form, which people would further complain about if he did attempt to demonstrate such a thing the one time he performed the maneuver.
You could change direction and still do the same amount of damage, the only thing that might happen would be for the person to lose their balance a little bit if they weren't versed or trained to fight in such a manner. Good thing our CRPG characters have been mastering the art of warfare and their weapon styles their entire lives! :wink:
Like the article i posted a second ago:
Second law of Newton: Force = Mass * Acceleration
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I was just writing another answer about realistic stabbing, about game design and so on, but I just deleted everything. It's pointless.
Alone the fact that you think someone here might be "right" or "wrong" disqualifies you from any further discussion. You are dreaming of a moment where the developers are cornered and have to admit that you were right and they were wrong, and that they will revert the change, which will not happen.
It is as easy as that:
The developers didn't want spin stab for some reason. Probably its a mixture of realism how THEY imagine it's realistic (and I guess 99% of other people think that your video is ridiculous), of the intention to shift the focus of the game from duelling to teamplay and a few other facts.
This mod is not developed to please the majority. You can try to convince the developers, but that's all. To do that you need a) good arguments (which, despite of your conviction, you do not have), and b) the charisma to actually make them WANT to do you that favour. By trying to prove they are all wrong and you, who didn't participate a single bit in the development of the mod, are right, you already failed in point b).
You will have to deal with it.
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I was just writing another answer about realistic stabbing, about game design and so on, but I just deleted everything. It's pointless.
Alone the fact that you think someone here might be "right" or "wrong" disqualifies you from any further discussion. You are dreaming of a moment where the developers are cornered and have to admit that you were right and they were wrong, and that they will revert the change, which will not happen.
It is as easy as that:
The developers didn't want spin stab for some reason. Probably its a mixture of realism how THEY imagine it's realistic (and I guess 99% of other people think that your video is ridiculous), of the intention to shift the focus of the game from duelling to teamplay and a few other facts.
This mod is not developed to please the majority. You can try to convince the developers, but that's all. To do that you need a) good arguments (which, despite of your conviction, you do not have), and b) the charisma to actually make them WANT to do you that favour. By trying to prove they are all wrong and you, who didn't participate a single bit in the development of the mod, are right, you already failed in point b).
You will have to deal with it.
The developers removed the spin stab because people complained and had it removed. I had a feeling you would somehow try to twist it and apparently I was right. Those mechanics have been in the game for well over 2 years like I mentioned and didn't become a problem till people started having to fight pike spinners and didn't understand how to block down then threw a fit when they were losing against them because it was deemed somehow unfair that this person use an extremely simplistic and easy method to beat them.
Also, that was a really creative way of saying "I'm giving up, but your arguments don't count because you actually argued the intelligently and made valid points I have yet to learn how to dispute."
Seriously, I have got to hand it to you. That was the most creative way of saying "I'm throwing in the towel, but not before I throw a few passive insults your way about your arguments (the same ones I wasn't able to counter in any way effectively) so I can feel like I emerged from the discussion not feeling completely embarrassed" since my younger cousin flipped over the checkerboard as I was about to beat him when he was 8 years old.
Sorry, but that was an extremely immature move, and I completely just lost the rest of any respect I had for you when you at least attempted civil discussion toward the beginning.
If you're going to discuss issues with somebody, you should at least have enough class not to throw a fit at the end when you feel things aren't going your way. Seriously.
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stop waisting your time spook, the changes are for the better, learn to fight with them and realise they not that bad
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stop waisting your time spook, the changes are for the better, learn to fight with them and realise they not that bad
The majority of users polled disagree with that statement.
Facts are facts.
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What the fuck can I say else than that you can't stab a spear sideways? You video is invalid. Spearmean don't need the spin stab, they are not supposed to use it, gameplay wise. I don't know what made the developers change it.
That's all I know.
You way of argumenting is like: "You made a counter argument? I still insist on mine, because I think they are right. And because mine are right, yours have to be wrong, and that's why I am the winner and you are the loser."
Again: the mere fact that you think there is something right or wrong disqualifies you. Game design is about preferences and taste. Your differs from the developer's taste, you suffer from it.
My arguments in a nutshell:
- spinstab is a lame, retarded looking mechanic which offers possibilities players are not supposed to have
- it is not realistic, you can't stab through armour and ribs while moving your spear sideways. Nor was this technique used in old days
- it is completely irrelevant what the moajority thinks. If there were any nerf cries it doesn't mean they were the reason for the nerf. Look in the forum what people want to get nerfed, and look what really happened. There is no correlation. It's just an assumption of yours that the developers were persuaded by the whiners.
And I give up because I see no point in further argumenting with you. You are completely incapable of understanding the point of view of other people, and you constantly try to "win" this, which isn't possible. The fact that you try this is... immature, at the best...
Our arguments are turning in a circle.
Also, that was a really creative way of saying "I'm giving up, but your arguments don't count because you actually argued the intelligently and made valid points I have yet to learn how to dispute."
Seriously, I have got to hand it to you. That was the most creative way of saying "I'm throwing in the towel, but not before I throw a few passive insults your way about your arguments (the same ones I wasn't able to counter in any way effectively) so I can feel like I emerged from the discussion not feeling completely embarrassed" since my younger cousin flipped over the checkerboard as I was about to beat him when he was 8 years old.
Sorry, but that was an extremely immature move, and I completely just lost the rest of any respect I had for you when you at least attempted civil discussion toward the beginning.
If you're going to discuss issues with somebody, you should at least have enough class not to throw a fit at the end when you feel things aren't going your way. Seriously.
So what are you doing here, then? :?