Devs, Please Stop "Fixing" Things that Aren't Broke

[Joker86]

There was a poll in one of the suggestion topics discussing improving the turning speed and there were roughly 10% more for improving the speed than against.   I can go find the topic if you'd like to see it.  The majority of people I've talked to feel the same way, but many haven't bothered to speak up because they feel it's useless to do so and that there's "no point."

Asking the majority of all players how the game should work is not a good plan... 

But I have no desire to compromise on this issue.
They need to repeal the entire nerf and admit they made a mistake based off kneejerk reactions to pikespinning.

I'm usually all for compromise to solve a problem, but not when one side is so completely wrong.
You have to draw a line in the sand eventually, and this is that time for me personally.

You are presenting opinions as facts. I think the nerf was a great success. You should now admit you were wrong.

 

[rufio]

cav is not op... it is very eazy to counter.

new turn nerfs do require more skill, you can achieve the same as you could before , it just takes better timing, basicly before you could release and turn and you would hit enything within that arc, making it incredibly eazymode, nothing skillfull about it, now you need to take into account that u dont get a free hit on the whole arc , you need to choose better when to release and when to imply your smaller hit arc. you cannot counter this with eny argument, saying this mechanic is dumbing down the game , and comparing it to chess pieces and outcomes is FUCKIN RETARDED! there i said it.

[Spook Island]

Asking the majority of all players how the game should work is not a good plan... 

You are presenting opinions as facts. I think the nerf was a great success. You should now admit you were wrong.

 

I'd rather ask all players about how the game should handle than a special, privileged few.  It's must better for the community as a whole.
I believe most people would rather have it the same way.

Also, I've already proven factually they are wrong.  People can realistically turn while swinging or stabbing.  That youtube video of the amateur chinese spearman completely discredited the entire argument against the realism of it despite what anybody may say.  That is a fact.  I'd be more than happy to repeat the message in simpler terms for anyone who didn't quite get it the first time around.  Most of the time "seeing is believing" but I can always try putting it up in simpler terms for our more stubborn patrons.

The was nerf was unrealistic - I've proven this is a fact and this was the core argument for it being instated in the first place.

A poll was performed and those who were for increasing the turn speed won out over those who were against.  This is also a fact.

So we've basically shot down the argument for the nerf and proven that is was wildly unpopular.

I'd say that pretty much removes any doubt that the nerf was in fact a failure.

The evidence more than speaks for itself.

[Spook Island]

cav is not op... it is very eazy to counter.

new turn nerfs do require more skill, you can achieve the same as you could before , it just takes better timing, basicly before you could release and turn and you would hit enything within that arc, making it incredibly eazymode, nothing skillfull about it, now you need to take into account that u dont get a free hit on the whole arc , you need to choose better when to release and when to imply your smaller hit arc. you cannot counter this with eny argument, saying this mechanic is dumbing down the game , and comparing it to chess pieces and outcomes is FUCKIN RETARDED! there i said it.

Drastically limiting gameplay mechanics is still drastically limiting gameplay mechanics.  No matter how you cut it.
The Chess metaphor and resulting question was a perfect correlation question.  That is exactly the reason the user I asked to answer it refused to do so.  However, not only did he refuse to answer the question, he also refused any attempt to reframe that same argument without diverting into gray areas that were more just a deflection than anything.

[Spook Island]

If the reason you are putting a nerf into effect has the core of its foundation for being there completely discredited with visual evidence...

And a poll conducted shows that same nerf is wildly unpopular with the majority of those surveyed...

There is no logical way you can say such a nerf was in any way successful.

To do so would be a blatant fabrication of reality.

[Jarlek]

I don't think of it as a "nerf to turn speed".

I think of it as a "buff to sidestepping/dodging".

[Tagora]

Keep nerfing 2h please.

It reinforces that I'm better than everyone else.

[Spook Island]

I don't think of it as a "nerf to turn speed".

I think of it as a "buff to sidestepping/dodging".

I appreciate the optimistic outlook, but the simple fact is that movement speed wasn't increase.  Therefore, sidestepping and dodging was in no way buffed.

However, turn speed for vertical attacks was most definitely removed to the highest degree.  Therefore, turn speed for vertical attacks was nerfed to the highest degree it possibly could be.

[Joker86]

The was nerf was unrealistic - I've proven this is a fact and this was the core argument for it being instated in the first place.

Again: it was a small bamboo spear, not a medieval ashwood pike or something similar massive, the guy who swung it swung it only with focus on speed, and not with focus on power to penetrate an enemies armour. There are good historic sources about fighting with pikes, not a single one mentions jumping and spinning. When you spin, you can't see what you will be hitting, because you have no eyes in the back of your head. Performing a SIDEWAYS movement while stabbing AWAY from you will only result in glancing and the shaft breaking, if you hit the target at all.

I want you to perform a video, where you take a real, medieval spear which was definitely heavier than the spear from the video, put on armour, then equip a straw puppet with armour, place yourself with the back to the puppet, take the spear, start a stab, turn around before you reached your maximum reach, hit the target and penetrate the armour without glancing or breaking the shaft. If you have done that, you have proven it is realistically possible. Which didn't prove at all if it has been done that way. Yes, you can fire two pistols at the same time, on in each hand. Still I'd like you to show me a single police or military unit where this is tought. (The few south American cowboy policemen raiding favelas don't really count).

Unless you've done so you've proven NOTHING.

A poll was performed and those who were for increasing the turn speed won out over those who were against.  This is also a fact.

This also proves NOTHING. It's not like everybody is completely unbiased, and everybody has a good overview about game balance or knows much about game design at all. Even if they think so.

I am really interested in game design, and it is what I am going to study this fall, but already in that time where I was only following the game design processes of several games I learned so much, that if I think back what I was thinking some time ago about a few game design questions and how "obvious" the "right" answer is, I recommend everyone to shut up.

That's why I think to better NOT ask the players. In the end, mod development is not a democracy, because unlike in a democracy, where the taxes of the people pay the politicians (next to the bribes from the industrialists), nobody pays the developers of a mod.

So we've basically shot down the argument for the nerf and proven that is was wildly unpopular.

I'd say that pretty much removes any doubt that the nerf was in fact a failure.

The evidence more than speaks for itself.

The devs ONLY can decide if it was a failure or not. If the game plays now how they want it (even if they want it boring, and the game plays boring now), it was a success.

[Liwe]

l

[Joker86]

Drastically limiting gameplay mechanics is still drastically limiting gameplay mechanics.  No matter how you cut it.

Game mechanics are not everything. By the way it's only a fighting mechanic, not a game mechanic. With that nerf teamplay got buffed. Which means the focus on different mechanics got shifted, that's all.

If the reason you are putting a nerf into effect has the core of its foundation for being there completely discredited with visual evidence...

And a poll conducted shows that same nerf is wildly unpopular with the majority of those surveyed...

There is no logical way you can say such a nerf was in any way successful.

To do so would be a blatant fabrication of reality.

Let's try it a different way:

tell me why the game NEEDS spin stabs. (Without reality argument).

And then tell me, if we implement spin stabs, why, with the same arguments you gave for spins stabs, we should not have 20m jumps without fall damage. Where will be the differences in argumentation? I am highly curious! 

[Spook Island]

Again: it was a small bamboo spear, not a medieval ashwood pike or something similar massive, the guy who swung it swung it only with focus on speed, and not with focus on power to penetrate an enemies armour. There are good historic sources about fighting with pikes, not a single one mentions jumping and spinning. When you spin, you can't see what you will be hitting, because you have no eyes in the back of your head. Performing a SIDEWAYS movement while stabbing AWAY from you will only result in glancing and the shaft breaking, if you hit the target at all.

I want you to perform a video, where you take a real, medieval spear which was definitely heavier than the spear from the video, put on armour, then equip a straw puppet with armour, place yourself with the back to the puppet, take the spear, start a stab, turn around before you reached your maximum reach, hit the target and penetrate the armour without glancing or breaking the shaft. If you have done that, you have proven it is realistically possible. Which didn't prove at all if it has been done that way. Yes, you can fire two pistols at the same time, on in each hand. Still I'd like you to show me a single police or military unit where this is tought. (The few south American cowboy policemen raiding favelas don't really count).

Unless you've done so you've proven NOTHING.

This also proves NOTHING. It's not like everybody is completely unbiased, and everybody has a good overview about game balance or knows much about game design at all. Even if they think so.

I am really interested in game design, and it is what I am going to study this fall, but already in that time where I was only following the game design processes of several games I learned so much, that if I think back what I was thinking some time ago about a few game design questions and how "obvious" the "right" answer is, I recommend everyone to shut up.

That's why I think to better NOT ask the players. In the end, mod development is not a democracy, because unlike in a democracy, where the taxes of the people pay the politicians (next to the bribes from the industrialists), nobody pays the developers of a mod.


The devs ONLY can decide if it was a failure or not. If the game plays now how they want it (even if they want it boring, and the game plays boring now), it was a success.

1. If you're telling me that a blatant stab such as the one demonstrated in that video at 22 seconds in, wouldn't ever pierce, then quite frankly you're lying.  How about I take your method of argument, dress you up in some leather armor, mail, etc.. and asked you to stand in front of that guy while he performs that same move with the intention to inflict bodily harm... we both know you would never agree to that.  Because you would get stabbed in the chest most possibly with mortal consequence. 

If i wanted to perfectly mimic your argument style in this recent post, I would say "you have proved nothing" the minute you will soon refuse to do such a test.  Unfortunately, this is not a strong or even decent argument because we both know how unrealistic it would be for either of us to go out an immediately perform either test. However, I will say it is far more likely that I perform such a spinning move than you ever agree to face down a stab like that. 

2. He doesn't need eyes in the back of his head because he lines up his target before initiating the move, has room to adjust for movement during mid stab (just like we used to in-game before people whined unreasonably and had it removed), and has something called peripheral vision which is also taken into account via the third person camera we all utilize in melee combat.

3.  Ask most fighters, such as boxers, and they will tell you it's more about speed than power.  However, this basic fighting knowledge runs completely counter intuitive to what you initially proposed.

"the guy who swung it swung it only with focus on speed, and not with focus on power to penetrate an enemies armour..."

http://www.martiallife.com/index.php/component/content/article/4-personal-development/44-the-science-of-punching-harder-why-is-speed-more-important-than-mass.html

4.  If the developers took your dictator style of game balance into account, this nerf never would have went forward in the first place.  Remember, it was pushed into place because of complaints by certain players (mainly EU judging by the looks of things).  So it appears as you have found yourself in a catch 22.  Therefore, this point is completely irrelevant.  Remember, these mechanics have  been around for well over 2 years so don't even attempt to try to get it twisted.  It won't work.

5.  And no, the community has every right to (and should) decide on whether or not this patch was a failure and they did.  Success isn't measured by how well it performs in the mind of it's creator.  It's measured by how well it's received by the people it was put into place for.  A.K.A. The community.

[Jarlek]

I appreciate the optimistic outlook, but the simple fact is that movement speed wasn't increase.  Therefore, sidestepping and dodging was in no way buffed.

However, turn speed for vertical attacks was most definitely removed to the highest degree.  Therefore, turn speed for vertical attacks was nerfed to the highest degree it possibly could be.

True that. But as it was virtually impossible to sidestep before, it now actually is possible. We did have the speed to sidestep before, it just never worked because of the "lol, I drag my weapon into you from the side and do full overhead/stab damage" trick bullshit that was before. That thing never made sense to me and is why I really like the change. Regarding melee depth, it made dodging a 2 dimension thing instead of a 1 dimension thing.

Sure spook, we might be able to turn our stabs/overhead more IRL than in the game, but I highly doubt it would do the same amount of damage. Maybe some sort of "side hitting" damage would work (hitting with the flat of the blade when you turn an overhead into someone). As cmp also suggested, giving shorter/lighter weapons slightly more turning ability would also make more sense, and I support that.

Although to be honest, while the turning was nerfed it really was only for when the swing is active. Take that chinaman in the video: He didn't really start the start the stab in one direction and then turn it to the side. It was a jump with a twirl where he always stabbed in the same direction (straight to the front from where he was facing) and the stab itself never rotated sideways at all. Same ingame, you can jump and twirl around 360 holding an attack chambered, it's just when you release the chamber that you can't turn so much. If you did an attack designed to turn to the sides, that would be pretty much like the sideswings we have, not the overhead/stab.

[Spook Island]

Game mechanics are not everything. By the way it's only a fighting mechanic, not a game mechanic. With that nerf teamplay got buffed. Which means the focus on different mechanics got shifted, that's all.

Let's try it a different way:

tell me why the game NEEDS spin stabs. (Without reality argument).

And then tell me, if we implement spin stabs, why, with the same arguments you gave for spins stabs, we should not have 20m jumps without fall damage. Where will be the differences in argumentation? I am highly curious! 

Why do we need spin stabs?  Easy.  Because they are perfectly realistic (AS VISUALLY DEMONSTRATED), make the game more exciting, and give players who don't have a lot of options for attacking (spear/pikemen) more moves to help fight enemies who actually know how to block down.

Frankly the "why do we need anything" that fits into the realistic category is a really terrible  attitude to have that will only lead to the game being watered down as I have repeatedly said it has been.

Why do we need feinting?
Why do we need kicks?
Why do we need jumps?
Why do we need anything that makes this game remotely exciting despite being perfectly realistic.

See where I'm going with this?

It's a flawed method of thinking and a losing argument no matter how you cut it.

[Spook Island]

True that. But as it was virtually impossible to sidestep before, it now actually is possible. We did have the speed to sidestep before, it just never worked because of the "lol, I drag my weapon into you from the side and do full overhead/stab damage" trick bullshit that was before. That thing never made sense to me and is why I really like the change. Regarding melee depth, it made dodging a 2 dimension thing instead of a 1 dimension thing.

Sure spook, we might be able to turn our stabs/overhead more IRL than in the game, but I highly doubt it would do the same amount of damage. Maybe some sort of "side hitting" damage would work (hitting with the flat of the blade when you turn an overhead into someone). As cmp also suggested, giving shorter/lighter weapons slightly more turning ability would also make more sense, and I support that.

Although to be honest, while the turning was nerfed it really was only for when the swing is active. Take that chinaman in the video: He didn't really start the start the stab in one direction and then turn it to the side. It was a jump with a twirl where he always stabbed in the same direction (straight to the front from where he was facing) and the stab itself never rotated sideways at all. Same ingame, you can jump and twirl around 360 holding an attack chambered, it's just when you release the chamber that you can't turn so much. If you did an attack designed to turn to the sides, that would be pretty much like the sideswings we have, not the overhead/stab.

The chinamen wasn't adjusting his stab mid swing because he wasn't trying to attack a moving target or giving a demonstration of how to do anything other than show the form, which people would further complain about if he did attempt to demonstrate such a thing the one time he performed the maneuver.

You could change direction and still do the same amount of damage, the only thing that might happen would be for the person to lose their balance a little bit if they weren't versed or trained to fight in such a manner.  Good thing our CRPG characters have been mastering the art of warfare and their weapon styles their entire lives! 

Like the article i posted a second ago:

Second law of Newton: Force = Mass * Acceleration