cRPG

Off Topic => General Off Topic => Topic started by: Sir Ryden on July 09, 2012, 08:05:07 am

Title: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Sir Ryden on July 09, 2012, 08:05:07 am
      So, I know this is horse and archer simulator and this isn't really relevant to cRPG at all, but I felt like starting a discussion about modern tanks. Since I take a great interest in tanks, WW2 to present day. ANYWAYS, I really hop this doesn't come to a flame war about "said tank could kill said tank with ease", but more of a critical comparison and overall efficiency of the tank, combat effectiveness, armor thickness, slope, material, cannon, etc. Now, I HOPE YOU GUYS UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS MY OPINION, NOT YOURS, MINE. You can think whatever you want because this is a comparison. We also can't really debate which tank is the best, since they haven't ever been put against one another, but human speculation is always something that will be in play , Anyways, these are my top tanks:

       1: FV4034 Challenger 2 ( Armor is made out of Chobham or Depleted Uranium, has an L30A1 120MM Rifled cannon that is 73 Caliber IIRC. Giving it more penetration values than both the Abrams and Leopard 2, as they have 54 Caliber cannons that aren't rifled, has a Hydropneumatic Suspension which is 6 times more flexible than conventional steel. Can travel 25 MPH off-road and 35 on-road, IMO the best overall tank at the time.)
       2: M1A2 SEP TUSK Abrams ( Armor is made out of the same material as the Challenger; Depleted Uranium, Cannon is 120MM L44 M256 Smoothbore. Uses a Torsion Bar suspension, which is used on a lot of the modern tanks, and some of the late WW2 tanks. Has the same speed as the Challenger 2, Forms a very reliable and capable tank.)
       3: Leopard 2A6 ( Since this is the most modern version of the Leopard 2-series, the Leopard 2A7 hasn't had much combat experience so it's not as battle proven as the Abrams, Challenger, or this variant of the Leopard 2, could arguably take the number 1 spot, though. It's also hard to decide this between the Abrams, the armor however, which is Tungsten steel has actually proved to be more capable in protection than the Depleted Uranium, has a faster speed than both the Abrams and the Challenger, giving it an edge. Its cannon is the 120MM Rheinmetall L55 Smoothbore gun. Also has the same suspension as the Abrams; The Torsion-bar Suspension, overall a really awesome tank.)


    Feel free to debate about them, give your opinions, etc. DISCUSS.
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: ildist on July 09, 2012, 08:09:19 am
wat
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Gnjus on July 09, 2012, 08:12:03 am
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Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Smoothrich on July 09, 2012, 08:31:04 am
nothing like a fleet of tanks designed to combat a massive rush of soviet armor into west germany to keep and maintain even if all they do is drive over 3rd world peasants destroying their infrastructure and being nearly useless in the asymmetric warfare that first world nations do on a regular basis (aka stomp the shit out of poor non-white nations with airpower and nighttime commando raids)
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 09, 2012, 08:48:38 am
General Off Topic: Stuff not related to cRPG. (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/board,27.0.html)
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: To Kill A Dead Horse on July 09, 2012, 08:52:44 am
AMERICA FUCK YEAH
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: sF_Guardian on July 09, 2012, 08:56:48 am
Move that in the correct section pls  :?

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Slev23 on July 09, 2012, 08:59:58 am
I'm gonna let you finish... but the T34 was the best tank ever.
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Oberyn on July 09, 2012, 09:04:53 am
Most warfare these days is assymetrical and were it not to be (some hypothetical modern total war scenario), tanks would be irrelevent anyways. I wouldn't go so far as to say they are obsolete, but it's heading in that direction. Single use infantry AT weapons are much more efficient and common than they were in WW2. They certainly aren't worth much if there is no equivalent air superiority, beyond making good targets.
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Oberyn on July 09, 2012, 09:08:55 am
I'm gonna let you finish... but the T34 was the best tank ever.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/is2-is-greatest-tank
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Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: HardRice on July 09, 2012, 10:05:45 am
General Off Topic: Stuff not related to cRPG. (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/board,27.0.html)

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Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Protemus on July 09, 2012, 10:44:35 am
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                                                                                                                                                                                       :arrow: about this thread
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Slamz on July 09, 2012, 10:51:37 am
Too many factors to consider, or at least, I don't know enough about all of them, but I think you left out a lot of important ones.

Obviously there's comparisons on armor and guns to be made but what about....

Cost per unit?
Electronics?  (Targeting systems in particular.)
Countermeasures?  (Chaff?  Smoke?)
Ease of maintenance.  Your tank breaks.  How quickly and cheaply can you fix it?
Durability outside of combat (how easy does it break down just driving around?)
Weight / transportability.
Offroad capability.
Ability to operate in a hostile environment for how long (biological/chemical/radiation).
Fuel efficiency.


That is, the tank with the best armor and best gun in the world isn't worth a lot if it costs 100x more than the second best tank and breaks down 3x as often.
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Slev23 on July 09, 2012, 11:14:33 am
T34, cheap, mass produced, russian. (Better than the IS2)
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Malaclypse on July 09, 2012, 11:19:37 am
germany had best tanks of ww2 period
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Paul on July 09, 2012, 11:21:55 am
Why do you think a rifled tank gun is better than a smoothbore? Among other things smoothbore gives a lot more options for ammo selection. Afaik even the British will change to smoothbore for their next tank, even more with HESH rounds considered to be obsolete.

Anti-tank is done with long fin-stabilised sabots(long dart) anyway. I don't see rifling being effective with this kind of ammo. In terms of penetration those long projectiles perform best without a spin. Also smoothbore barrels get their projectiles off with a higher velocity than rifled barrels because some of the pressure is lost through the rifling itself. Also they are lighter and suffer from less barrel wear.

The only advantage I see from the rifled tank gun is the higher reach for the non-anti-tank ammo. But in terms of tank vs tank smoothbore is better imo.
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Kafein on July 09, 2012, 11:22:28 am
General Off Topic: Stuff not related to cRPG. (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/board,27.0.html)


HE IS BACK
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Bobthehero on July 09, 2012, 11:26:42 am
With all thoses IFV's with turret mounted missile launchers and infantry anti tank capacities and finally air capacity, tanks seem a bit redundant.
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Darkkarma on July 09, 2012, 11:59:17 am
german tanks

edit: fuck you, malaclypse
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Havoco on July 09, 2012, 12:11:26 pm
All I know is, the world isn't complete without giant japanese-made combat robots.
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Teeth on July 09, 2012, 12:18:05 pm
I am a proud citizen of a country that sold all their tanks.
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Rheinhardt on July 09, 2012, 12:23:58 pm
Nobody's mentioned the most important elements: crew and doctrine.

In 1940, French tanks in all categories were superior to their German counterparts, sometimes markedly so. But German tanks swept the French from the field. The reason was that while the Panzer III and IV were inferior in armaments and armor, their crews were better trained and their armored doctrine was superior. Similarly when the Germans invaded Russia, while the T34 was superior, the German crews were veterans by this point and their better tactics and communications gave them victory where on-paper statistics spelled defeat.

With that in mind, consider the Abrams crews versus the crews of a Leopard. Which contains more combat veterans? Which units have fought together in combat? Which larger formations have their logistics base accustomed to repairing battle damage and keeping their vehicles operational?

You really have to give it to the Abrams in this respect.
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: dynamike on July 09, 2012, 04:02:40 pm
germany had best tanks of ww2 period

If you are a good boy I let you touch my German Smoothbore  :wink:
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Christo on July 09, 2012, 04:17:00 pm
T34, cheap, mass produced, russian. (Better than the IS2)

Better target practice for German tanks, yes.
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Sir Ryden on July 09, 2012, 05:30:32 pm
Why do you think a rifled tank gun is better than a smoothbore? Among other things smoothbore gives a lot more options for ammo selection. Afaik even the British will change to smoothbore for their next tank, even more with HESH rounds considered to be obsolete.

Anti-tank is done with long fin-stabilised sabots(long dart) anyway. I don't see rifling being effective with this kind of ammo. In terms of penetration those long projectiles perform best without a spin. Also smoothbore barrels get their projectiles off with a higher velocity than rifled barrels because some of the pressure is lost through the rifling itself. Also they are lighter and suffer from less barrel wear.

The only advantage I see from the rifled tank gun is the higher reach for the non-anti-tank ammo. But in terms of tank vs tank smoothbore is better imo.
Yeah, in tank vs tank, but this is just a general comparison. Like someone said there's waaaayyyyy too many factors to decide which tank is the "Best". Also yeah, the Abrams and Leopards smoothbore can use a variety of rounds; HEAT, APDS, Canister rounds with ceramic ball-bearings, MPAT, HE-OR-T, and a few others. But yeah, I see where you're coming from.
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Sir Ryden on July 09, 2012, 05:35:03 pm
Most warfare these days is assymetrical and were it not to be (some hypothetical modern total war scenario), tanks would be irrelevent anyways. I wouldn't go so far as to say they are obsolete, but it's heading in that direction. Single use infantry AT weapons are much more efficient and common than they were in WW2. They certainly aren't worth much if there is no equivalent air superiority, beyond making good targets.
Yeah, tanks are pretty negligible nowadays,  but I still think they're pretty cool.
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Ad1no on July 10, 2012, 12:42:06 am
This is such an easy answer for me. This tank was built with the intentions of keeping the passengers ALIVE even thru direct RPG hits. And no one knows how to fight a modern war like the Israelis.. This tank is for modern warfare.

The Israeli Merkava

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Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Protemus on July 10, 2012, 12:44:35 am
Why would you be interested in tanks,you will never drive them or see them...wel except if it comes to Third World War,which in that case I STILL don't care coz I live in asshole of our galaxy called Croatia (I love my country and it's beutiful,but it sucks coz we have fucking thiefs and bundle of stickss in gouverment)
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Bobthehero on July 10, 2012, 12:49:47 am
Well I for one is trying to be in the army, mind you I am hoping to get into a paratroopers batallion, but still.
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: djavo on July 10, 2012, 12:58:52 am
I think I could destroy this tank with one well placed jarid.

Well I for one is trying to be in the army, mind you I am hoping to get into a paratroopers batallion, but still.

Atleast you dont live in Latvia, thank God for that.
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Bobthehero on July 10, 2012, 01:00:54 am
Canada, so I'll be jumping out of a triplane jet using a wooden parachute, only to shoot at bad guys with my potatoe rifle.

And it shall be glorious!
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Torben on July 10, 2012, 01:10:00 am
it sucks coz we have fucking thiefs and bundle of stickss in gouverment)

so do 95% of all the other countries
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: djavo on July 10, 2012, 01:11:21 am
so do 95% of all the other countries

Not iceland, they have lesbians.
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Sir Ryden on July 10, 2012, 03:21:07 am
Nobody's mentioned the most important elements: crew and doctrine.

In 1940, French tanks in all categories were superior to their German counterparts, sometimes markedly so. But German tanks swept the French from the field. The reason was that while the Panzer III and IV were inferior in armaments and armor, their crews were better trained and their armored doctrine was superior. Similarly when the Germans invaded Russia, while the T34 was superior, the German crews were veterans by this point and their better tactics and communications gave them victory where on-paper statistics spelled defeat.

With that in mind, consider the Abrams crews versus the crews of a Leopard. Which contains more combat veterans? Which units have fought together in combat? Which larger formations have their logistics base accustomed to repairing battle damage and keeping their vehicles operational?

You really have to give it to the Abrams in this respect.
MODERN. TANKS. BRO, yeah the french had tanks that surpassed the german tanks in both firepower and armor, but late war the germans still had the best tanks.
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Torben on July 10, 2012, 06:10:25 pm
MODERN. TANKS. BRO, yeah the french had tanks that surpassed the german tanks in both firepower and armor, but late war the germans still had the best tanks.

german tanks had the best suspension and could therefor be heavier and faster, whilst providing a smooth ride,  but allied tanks could shoot whilst moving thanks to gyroscopes,  had a lot higher quality of steel and therefor where more durable...

I guess it isnt as easy and obvious about ww2 tanks as well.  I know a tiger crew member,  and he was pissed because the machine broke down every few hundred meters ^^
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Bobthehero on July 10, 2012, 08:38:58 pm
There's also the fact that the Sherman could easily be field repaired by their crewmen, that helped.
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Overdriven on July 10, 2012, 08:44:45 pm
Better target practice for German tanks, yes.

T-34 was also the most reliable tank. Your German tanks would be rotting in a field somewhere with their engine on fire.

There's also the fact that the Sherman could easily be field repaired by their crewmen, that helped.

Sherman's were one of the least reliable so that's probably why  :lol: Many vets who were in sherman's swear they are death traps.
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Christo on July 10, 2012, 08:45:55 pm
T-34 was also the most reliable tank. Your German tanks would be rotting in a field somewhere with their engine on fire.

What. I said nothing about reliability.
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Overdriven on July 10, 2012, 08:46:41 pm
What. Nobody said a thing about reliability.

I meant German tanks would be the target practice due to breaking down  :P
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Christo on July 10, 2012, 08:47:39 pm
I meant German tanks would be the target practice due to breaking down  :P

German tanks breaking down

Russian poorly trained and radioless tanks

Both sides had some nasty things going on.
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Leesin on July 11, 2012, 11:51:47 am
Britland won WW2
Title: Re: Modern tanks, WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Post by: Beauchamp on July 11, 2012, 01:19:22 pm
obviously the best tank was that british one from WWI as it was the only tank in that period. afterwards nobody can agree on anything since there were more than 1 type and we're on the internet.