cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Ninja_Khorin on January 05, 2011, 08:01:31 pm

Title: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 05, 2011, 08:01:31 pm
Bastard Sword:

weight 1.8
requirement 9
spd rtng 99
weapon length 101
swing damage 35, cut
thrust damage 23 pierce
1,886 gold

Katana:

weight 2
requirement 9
spd rtng 101
weapon length 95
swing damage 36, cut
thrust damage 18 pierce

9212 gold

One of these weapons must be poorly balanced. If katana gets broken you pay something like 1800 gold, when bastard sword breaks it's 330 gold. And Bastard sword is atleast equal to the Katana. there might be similar weirdness going on with other items, this I just noticed for obvious reasons.

EDIT: Oh, and Bastard Sword also allows half-swording.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Paul on January 05, 2011, 09:02:25 pm
I made some adjustments and lowered the price.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Banok on January 05, 2011, 09:13:10 pm
do you mean for next patch? cause its the same
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Paul on January 05, 2011, 09:14:27 pm
Yes, next patch. 2013
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Joseph_the_Mighty on January 06, 2011, 08:30:40 am
I wish there was a like button..
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Kalam on January 06, 2011, 08:35:41 am
The key is in the speed rating. Though, with the speed nerf, there really is no arguement between a katana and a longsword- the longsword is the superior weapon. The only reason to use a katana before the patch was to spam the shit out of 1handers.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Shigeru on January 06, 2011, 04:26:26 pm
Hopefully the next patch will sort out this sort of issue.

I love the style of the Katana, but I'll probably end up changing to another sword if it's not adjusted to be a viable choice again.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: MadMac on January 06, 2011, 04:39:13 pm
A katana's production cost is MUCH higher and more labourious than a simple Bastard sword. Plus the katana is much faster to swing, I use the bastard sword and when i encounter someone with a katana i usually take a more defensive posture.

its balanced i say, and realistic
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Dunecat on January 06, 2011, 05:24:49 pm
A katana's production cost is MUCH higher and more labourious than a simple Bastard sword. Plus the katana is much faster to swing, I use the bastard sword and when i encounter someone with a katana i usually take a more defensive posture.

its balanced i say, and realistic
One can use complex and time-consuming technologies while forging a bastard/longsword, to achive superior (to good katana) price and quality.
But on the matter, I agree. :)
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Jetsam on January 06, 2011, 05:53:05 pm
Well the Katana shouldn't be the heavier weapon, first of all. Secondly, the two speed isn't enough to say it's faster, it's just people who use the Katana are generally agility heavy; so it seems faster.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 06, 2011, 05:59:17 pm
Katana isn't much faster. It's 2 points. That's not much. Katana wielders just tend to have more agility.

And to that whole "production cost" argument you got going there I could start bringing up tons of weapons that should be MUCH cheaper in upkeep than a bastard sword but are in fact more expensive.
To name a few:
Goedendag(a stick with a metallic point) - 2884 gold
Basically every axe that costs more than the bastard, like Long War Axe - 7622 gold
Same with maces.
There's no rason why Two Handed War Axe(1386 gold) should cost that much less less than Long War Axe(7622)
Or why a Heavy Bastard Sword(4200 gold) which is only slightly longer than the Bastard Sword(1886 gold) would cost double gold to maintain.

The price is determined by game balance, not any sort of realistic prices, and if you're trying to claim anything else then have a good day, sir.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: _JoG_ on January 06, 2011, 06:46:52 pm
Since Urist was here, I hope he would have a look here again.
What I want you guys to pay attention to is the new balance between hand-and-a-half swords, or, I should say, the balance between their price-to-value ratio (considering the weapon upkeep prices). Pre-patch longsword (the best 1 1/2 sword) was, methinks, 6 points longer than a bastard sword, had better cut (37 vs 35) and thrust (I don't remember exactly, but I think there was a 2-point difference too). Price did not matter much, since both weapons were affordable. That made longsword, on par with an uber-spamming katana, a very popular choice for fighting.

Now the weapon stats were modified:
(click to show/hide)

So, currently, the only significant advantage of a longsword is its length. Still, 5 cm is not that much of a difference. I'm not speaking about nerfed stab here, this is quite a different story. However, I don't understand the reasoning why the thrust using a two-hand grip and a thrusting blade (such as a bastard sword or a longsword) should be weaker than using only one hand and a thrusting blade (such as in-game long schiavona or an arming sword). But that's the topic for a separate thread.

It is the upkeed price that makes the longsword completely useless as compared to the bastard sword. Indeed, the price of the longsword is 2.7 times higher than that of a bastard sword, while both weapons have very similar characteristics. The heavy bastard sword 20% more expensive than a longsword while having the same stats.

IMHO, considering the price-to-value ratio, bastard sword is the only viable choice among all hand-and-a-half swords at this moment. Wielding a heavy bastard sword or a longsword just makes no sense, since you have to pay MUCH more for a negligible improvement in stats.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: _JoG_ on January 06, 2011, 06:47:26 pm
How can I delete this message? Messed up the options.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: _JoG_ on January 06, 2011, 06:48:08 pm
CARP, delete this one too.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Kalam on January 11, 2011, 12:21:34 am
Looks like we're back to viability. I should note that I continued using the katana due to the curvature. We've got a lot of newer players, and they seem to have a hard time blocking curved weapons.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Shigeru on January 11, 2011, 02:17:40 am
I'm still slightly hesitant to fork out 8.4k Gold on maintaining the Katana if it's stats are marginally superior to a 1.5k weapon.

How much of a benefit is 1 point in speed exactly?

I think it might be worthwhile to drop the cost back to its' original amount rather than trying to buff the weapon any more.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Ishar on January 11, 2011, 11:36:54 am
Definitely don't buff the katana. we have enough of them in the game as it is.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Babelfish on January 11, 2011, 12:54:11 pm
Definitely don't buff the katana. we have enough of them in the game as it is.

Its already buffed :)

Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Welcome_To_Hell on January 12, 2011, 04:23:53 pm
Katana is an import from Japan. Therefore it should keep its high price, its retarded to see everybody using it on the battlefield.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Vexus on January 12, 2011, 04:38:01 pm
Honestly the katana is too good (Speed wise) people may say bastard sword is better but I would take katana anyday then bastard sword 3 more speed for only 5 less length? hell yea.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Ujin on January 12, 2011, 04:41:06 pm
Definitely don't buff the katana. we have enough of them in the game as it is.
Well, in my opinion, we have enough viking- wannabes like you :D.

P.S. i don't know what you guys are talking about here, i still find longsword a better weapon, especially when it comes to cost efficiency.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Ishar on January 12, 2011, 04:59:11 pm
Well, in my opinion, katanas are supposed to be an exotic addition to the game, a weapon for a few dedicated players. It seems to take the place of the spammitar now, as the most popular weapon.

Number of VHS ninjas skyrocketed with the patch.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: _JoG_ on January 12, 2011, 05:27:44 pm
Hm... Due to the stellar income in v.0.200 and later versions I've got a chance to try every weapon I wanted. So, yesterday I bought myself a katana. So, in v.0.201 I find katana to be the easiest 2h mode ever. In 99% of cases all you have to do is spam everyone to death with some occasional blocking. Yes, katana is pretty expensive, basically I used it with my peasant gear (linen shirt and so on, since in order to get a good income I try to keep my gear under 10k), BUT my combat efficiency did not suffer from my crappy armor at all! Seriously, why should I bother wearing armor if my opponent simply does not have a single chance to hit me? By the way, I've got a pretty balanced 2h build (18-18 Strategus-aimed character with 6 ps and 140 wpf in 2h), and even with 18 agi and a proper footwork I had to block every third swing (swing-swing-swing-block-swing-swing-swing-block-...), while my powerstrike combined with chadz's maintenance system allowed me to kill anyone in 2-3 hits. Agi-intensive builds with 150-160 wpfs would be even more successful in spamming this little thing.

Summary: katana speed should be decreased, since currently it's nothing but a spamming uber-machine.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 12, 2011, 07:19:39 pm
Then again, I tried playing with the bastard sword(in disguise) and my combat efficiency didn't suffer at all either.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: UrLukur on January 12, 2011, 09:28:57 pm
Katana need speed nerf to about 101. It was fine back then.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 12, 2011, 09:34:46 pm
This +1 speed really bums you that much? It's hardly noticeable, 1 point is nothing to get that upset about.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Vexus on January 12, 2011, 09:44:20 pm
I see a difference when using two handed sword (97) and longsword (98) so yes 1 speed makes a difference.

If it didn't people wouldn't have complained to give katana 1 speed which was given.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 12, 2011, 09:48:22 pm
Honestly the katana is too good (Speed wise) people may say bastard sword is better but I would take katana anyday then bastard sword 3 more speed for only 5 less length? hell yea.
6 less length, 5 less stab, 3 more speed, 1 more swing, .2 more weight and 6400 more gold.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: zagibu on January 13, 2011, 08:34:52 pm
Khorin likes his Katana. I wonder why?
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 13, 2011, 09:06:13 pm
Because I'm a ninja? That's no secret ;)
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: UrLukur on January 13, 2011, 10:18:22 pm
Khorin likes his easy mode, just it. True, katana is more expensive than bastard and longsword, but is better than both. 3/4 speed for 6 reach makes the difference. Ideally, Katana would have 100 speed tops.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: zagibu on January 13, 2011, 10:21:47 pm
What? The main purpose of Ninjas is to act secretly. You've blown your cover now :mrgreen:.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 13, 2011, 10:49:34 pm
Khorin likes his easy mode, just it. True, katana is more expensive than bastard and longsword, but is better than both. 3/4 speed for 6 reach makes the difference. Ideally, Katana would have 100 speed tops.
Exaggerating doesn't help your cause. It's 3 speed for 6 reach and 5 pierce(bastard vs. katana) or 4 speed for 11 length and 7 pierce. Speed is the katanas only advantage
When will you understand that the reason katana wielders are fast is because of their build more than the weapon.
For reference, here is my build:

Level 30
Strength   15   
Agility   25   

One Handed   1   [1 WPF cost]
Two Handed   172   [12 WPF cost]
Polearm   1   [1 WPF cost]
Archery   1   [1 WPF cost]
Crossbow   1   [1 WPF cost]
Throwing   1   [1 WPF cost]

Ironflesh   0   
Power Strike   5   
Shield   0   
Athletics   8   
Riding   0   
Horse Archery   0   
Power Draw   0   
Power Throw   0   
Weapon master *   8

And zagibu, on the battlefield I am but one ninja among many. Or maybe a peasant ;)
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: UrLukur on January 13, 2011, 11:14:51 pm
It have also more cut damage than bastard. And your build only proves that 2h have not only various advantages over 1h when, but also more effective build ... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 13, 2011, 11:16:59 pm
Oh you're right. 1 point more cut.
And you are discussing a different topic now. The topic you should be in is 7 threads below mine I believe. Anyway I tried spamming chimp, i.e. me standing in front of him still and he standing in front of me still and I attack first and start spamming. He interrupted my attack every time. He had a shield, 160 1h wpf and an espada or side sword or sumthin'. He can't be spammed except by his own mistake.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 13, 2011, 11:33:19 pm
Oh also:
I was on the duel server just a few minutes ago, I got a KD of like 70/6, 40 of those were done with a 1h sword with 0wfp and 21 agility, slow as hell. I still beat 95% of the people I faced, including ninjas with katanas, stimpy with 24 agility, 170wfp and staff, Longsword wielding agi-based light armor types, etc. etc.

I'm not sure what you people are complaining about.
He beat me. I couldn't spam him either.
EDIT: Except when he wore black armour. But I'm not sure if I spammed him to death or if his weapon bounced, was experimenting a little. ;)
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: UrLukur on January 13, 2011, 11:37:51 pm
Oh also:He beat me. I couldn't spam him either.
EDIT: Except when he wore black armour. But I'm not sure if I spammed him to death or if his weapon bounced, was experimenting a little. ;)

1h no shield ? whats the point in 1h with no shield when 2h and poles are superior?

Also, speed of katana make it very difficult to feint with shield against it.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 13, 2011, 11:47:09 pm
1h no shield ? whats the point in 1h with no shield when 2h and poles are superior?

Also, speed of katana make it very difficult to feint with shield against it.
Good job skipping my other post.
Then again blocking is a lot easier.
EDIT: Also, I think the total loss of 1h wpf compensates for the absense of shield.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Babelfish on January 13, 2011, 11:51:39 pm
1h no shield ? whats the point in 1h with no shield when 2h and poles are superior?

Also, speed of katana make it very difficult to feint with shield against it.

Woooosh

Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: UrLukur on January 13, 2011, 11:53:39 pm
Good job skipping my other post.
Then again blocking is a lot easier.
EDIT: Also, I think the total loss of 1h wpf compensates for the absense of shield.

You got outskilled, killed by inferior weapon. WHy i skipped ? he play 1h no shield.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 13, 2011, 11:56:36 pm
You got outskilled, killed by inferior weapon. WHy i skipped ? he play 1h no shield.
1h with no wpf and you admit that skill is what matters and that spamming is impossible.
I'm done.
And you skipped this:
Oh you're right. 1 point more cut.
And you are discussing a different topic now. The topic you should be in is 7 threads below mine I believe. Anyway I tried spamming chimp, i.e. me standing in front of him still and he standing in front of me still and I attack first and start spamming. He interrupted my attack every time. He had a shield, 160 1h wpf and an espada or side sword or sumthin'. He can't be spammed except by his own mistake.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: UrLukur on January 14, 2011, 12:07:54 am
1h with no wpf and you admit that skill is what matters and that spamming is impossible.
I'm done.
And you skipped this:

21 agi. Footwork can save against spam, i bet it does in phyrex case.

Also, i'm sure chimp have wpf in 1h, what are you trying to say ?

Moreover: NO SHIELD. It matters in spam.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Fasader on January 14, 2011, 12:16:30 am
This +1 speed really bums you that much? It's hardly noticeable, 1 point is nothing to get that upset about.

okay, katana back to 101 then.

bastard sword price to 3k.

everyone happy? Y/N?
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on January 14, 2011, 12:17:30 am
21 agi. Footwork can save against spam, i bet it does in phyrex case.

Also, i'm sure chimp have wpf in 1h, what are you trying to say ?

Moreover: NO SHIELD. It matters in spam.
Read the quote above you again. Chimp had a shield and 160 wpf in 1h.

Fasader of course I'm not happy if you nerf the katana. I said hardly noticeable. But it's still noticeable. And since a shielder can clearly not be spammed unless going full strength and throwing or something the only thing a nerf would do would make it easier to block for polearms and 2handers because a shielder shouldn't have much issue blocking.
And good players can block the katana without problem.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Ishar on January 14, 2011, 12:19:01 am
Moreover: NO SHIELD. It matters in spam.
Well, shields slow you down. No shit.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Paul on January 14, 2011, 01:59:49 am
Coming next patch: We added an on_hit trigger that fires when someone got hit by a katana. The damage receiving agent will be cut into two regardless of the armor because it's well known that katana cut through everything at ease. Also, upblock or downblock with a katana defends against arrows, bolts and throwing weapons. Blocking to the sides will protect from getting overrun by a horse when katanaist turns in a way to bring his sword between himself and the beast. The horse will be split entirely during a successful block.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: RazorRamon on January 14, 2011, 02:22:42 am
still underpowered, how will i kill archers if it cant shoot ki bolts?
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Diomedes on January 14, 2011, 02:35:37 am
Most real ninja weren't be able to afford a Katana.  If this is implemented I vote the price goes up at least 2k.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Shigeru on January 14, 2011, 03:17:12 am
I think the Katana needs a special animation that decapitates your enemies on a killing blow.

Also, you should be able to throw it like a throwing lance.  8-)
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Vexus on January 14, 2011, 03:23:47 am
okay, katana back to 101 then.

bastard sword price to 3k.

everyone happy? Y/N?

I wouldn't mind that honestly bastard sword is too cheap as is.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: zagibu on January 14, 2011, 05:38:28 pm
still underpowered, how will i kill archers if it cant shoot ki bolts?

Maybe instead of defending against arrows only, an upblock should reflect them back on the archer?

What really has to be done, though is that when blocked by or blocking a katana, every other weapon breaks.

Also, if you jump and overhead slash the ground, a forcewave should form and destroy everything in it's path from the ninja to the map border, 6 feet wide.

And lastly, if you hold right or left slash and jump, you will continue to gain upward and forward thrust, until you let go of the swing. And of course, a ninja doesn't take fall damage, they know how to roll off.

Next on schedule: the snowflake shotgun.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Tai Feng on January 15, 2011, 02:27:25 pm
It's too fast.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Ninja_Totoro on January 15, 2011, 02:29:07 pm
It's too slow.

Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: bruce on January 15, 2011, 05:16:13 pm
It's too slow

When I attack someone and they block, they have a chance of counterattacking, ffs, boost katana speed!
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Michael on January 16, 2011, 02:40:54 am
Also, his signature doesnt fit. If he could block, he didnt need insane speed.

However, if we want to be fair, the katanas price is either too high or those of other swords is too low.

Its not as insane as with horses, Palfrey for about 8.000 or something more effective than heavy plated charger for almost 100.000 gold, but still its wrong.

The Longsword is equal. Me personally I like it more because the Katana is only good for left-right-left spam, the thrust is simply too weak to do some serious damage against an armored opponent and since upkeep costs for infantry is no problem everyone can wear decent armor all the time.


On the other hand, you Ninjas should have more than enough money, so same, where actually is the problem? You make more gold every map............
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Thomek on January 16, 2011, 06:33:00 am
True.. I don't really care about the price. If it cost 30k Gold, I could still go a long time with my 260k bank account.

And btw.. Katana is NOT OP. Ninjas use it purely for style reason, and we build our characters around it. (And discuss efficiency and optimize our builds in our secret ninja-forums, as well as discussing other secret matters.)

I would seriously take a bastard sword over the katana if I didn't care about style, not talking about heavy bastard or longsword. Hell a german, or almost any of the high end swords would be the preferred sword if I would choose for efficiency over style. (Like 90% of cRPG players do.)

I think people rage over katanas, because of the Ninjas that build themselves around it, that we sneak around and have a different backstabbing playstyle, that we have different builds, that we develop different "style of fighting" because of the short range. Not to mention that we are overall above average players, skill-wise.

Give a katana to a noob with a fail-build, and he would be much deader than a shielder or a heavy polearm spammer noob with a fail build.

Yes it is the fastest 2hander by 2 points, add to that low strength AGI builds + low armor, you have a speedfreak made of paper. The offensive power is great, but you have to choose your battles carefully, evade projectiles, block or evade almost every hit etc.. It enables us to be places we shouldn't be, faster than we should be, run away from all other infantry, catch all archers, and do some cool moves. Our build enables us to have a good chance in almost all 1vs1 situations except with horse archers.

1 mistake and we are dead however, but that's what we live by and accept. It teaches us to play smarter. Pushes us to become better.

Reason we do it is because it's fun for us. More fun than being a tank in the inhumanly intense clusterfucks, a slow ass shielder, a relaxed archer in the distance or last but not least, the prime backstabbers in cRPG: Cavalry.

Anyway.. look at katana players. 90% of them suck, and die quickly. Then give it to a good player like Khorin or Phyrex or 22nd Bear, and they can pick apart half the enemy team, like they would with any sword, or any weapon.

Like oberyn with his lance on a horse, or lance without a horse, or Tai Feng in peasant outfit and military fork.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Mustang_Sweets on February 03, 2011, 09:41:37 pm
Coming next patch: We added an on_hit trigger that fires when someone got hit by a katana. The damage receiving agent will be cut into two regardless of the armor because it's well known that katana cut through everything at ease. Also, upblock or downblock with a katana defends against arrows, bolts and throwing weapons. Blocking to the sides will protect from getting overrun by a horse when katanaist turns in a way to bring his sword between himself and the beast. The horse will be split entirely during a successful block.

The katana fighting style was a one hit kill weapon against the armor and weapons of it's era and region. Most katana fights back then were more like wild west stand offs, First to draw and strike would win. Thing is that after that if they were blocked the katana user had no idea what to do after that because the style leaves you wide open for a counter strike. It was more a light weighted brutal weapon rather then a finnese weapon.

Also the katana couldn't cut chain mail.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Xant on February 03, 2011, 09:45:43 pm
The katana fighting style was a one hit kill weapon against the armor and weapons of it's era and region. Most katana fights back then were more like wild west stand offs, First to draw and strike would win. Thing is that after that if they were blocked the katana user had no idea what to do after that because the style leaves you wide open for a counter strike. It was more a light weighted brutal weapon rather then a finnese weapon.

Also the katana couldn't cut chain mail.

Any (credible) sources for what you say? It sounds very, very much like the common Katana-Is-The-Weapon-Of-Gods myths that some westerners have.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Dunecat on February 03, 2011, 09:51:18 pm
I would like katana to have a one handed mode, usable without a shield.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on February 03, 2011, 09:55:55 pm
I'd like to point out that this thread is no longer relevant after the katana got a +1 speed increase and price reduction and upkeep reduction.
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Fasader on February 03, 2011, 10:04:41 pm
see you after the new patch
Title: Re: Katana vs. other swords
Post by: Xant on February 03, 2011, 10:05:25 pm
let there be rage