cRPG

Off Topic => General Off Topic => Topic started by: LordBerenger on May 21, 2012, 09:19:21 pm

Title: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: LordBerenger on May 21, 2012, 09:19:21 pm
Hello. Instead of creating a capitalist thread (which this forum isn't obviously mature for but i'll create a new one anyhow) i made this a political thread etc).

Feel free to discuss about your political ideologies and thoughts about the society and how you would like it to be etc etc.

Here's a couple of rules to adhere to when posting in this thread

- Keep it strictly about politics

- No trolling

- No racism
Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: Herkkutatti on May 21, 2012, 09:22:59 pm
(click to show/hide)
:( , I prefer communism!
Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: LordBerenger on May 21, 2012, 09:24:39 pm
(click to show/hide)
:( , I prefer communism!

Read rules before you type commi scum!
Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: Leshma on May 21, 2012, 09:25:00 pm
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Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: LordBerenger on May 21, 2012, 09:25:46 pm
GOOOOODDDDDDDD DAMMIT YOU FUCKING TROLLSSSS YOU'RE RUINING THIS THREAD! IM GONNA TELL ADMINS YOU'RE SHITPOSTING IN THIS SERIOUS THREAD ABOUT CAPITALISM YOU LEFTIST LIBERAL SCUM!
Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: Leshma on May 21, 2012, 09:27:49 pm
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Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: Herkkutatti on May 21, 2012, 09:29:18 pm
(click to show/hide)
porn inside
Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: djavo on May 21, 2012, 09:45:56 pm
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Herou!
Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: LordBerenger on May 21, 2012, 09:49:25 pm
STOP POSTING COMMI SHIT IMAGES AND START PAYING YOUR TAXES YOU DISGUSTING LEFTIST SCUM!
Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: Herkkutatti on May 21, 2012, 10:06:27 pm
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Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: LordBerenger on May 21, 2012, 10:12:11 pm
You goddamn troll leftist piece of shit scum!

LEAVE CAPITALISM ALONE YOU LEECHING IRL SCUM!
Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: Thovex on May 21, 2012, 10:41:35 pm
I LOVE KAPIKULUISM.
Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: Christo on May 21, 2012, 10:52:52 pm
KAPIKULUISM.

lol
Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: Lars on May 21, 2012, 11:05:04 pm

Yes

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: Nessaj on May 21, 2012, 11:09:43 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx5Sc3vWefE
Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: pingpong on May 21, 2012, 11:10:51 pm
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Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: LordBerenger on May 21, 2012, 11:30:08 pm
Nothing wrong with having it privatized. Why should someone who sits at home and collect food stamps and other shit take part of what others have invested smart in and what not to get as much money as they currently have.

''Hurr durr you got lots of money, share man! SHAREEEE IT'S COMMUNISM NOOOW BOYSS!''


Everyone for himself/herself mentality exists for a good reason.
Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: polkafranzi on May 21, 2012, 11:36:35 pm
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Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: Herkkutatti on May 21, 2012, 11:36:39 pm
Working communism would be utopia  8-) too bad it doesn't work  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: LordBerenger on May 21, 2012, 11:48:43 pm
Working communism would be utopia  8-) too bad it doesn't work  :rolleyes:

U crazy commi scum
Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: polkafranzi on May 21, 2012, 11:50:18 pm
U crazy commi scum
Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: BlindGuy on May 22, 2012, 12:00:06 am
Nothing wrong with having it privatized. Why should someone who sits at home and collect food stamps and other shit take part of what others have invested smart in and what not to get as much money as they currently have.

''Hurr durr you got lots of money, share man! SHAREEEE IT'S COMMUNISM NOOOW BOYSS!''


Everyone for himself/herself mentality exists for a good reason.

Neither socialists nor communists have space for this whole "food stams" and "leeching" that you describe, you need to read "The ragged Trousered Philanthtopists" written OVER A HUNDRED YEARS AGO to try and teach ingnorant idiots like you what the world COULD be like, and what is IS like, due to people like you, it YOU who allows these ppl to leech off society. Socialism is an ideal of a fair society, with ppl only rewarded on effort, skills, and a financial system based on PRODUCTION, not the artificial, unreal, make believe system we have now based mainly on the "financial sector", who invent crisis after crisis just so they can increase their hold on your wallet, while you blindly look the other way. Grow up mate, your taxes, same as my taxes, pay fat fucks to do nothing and tell YOU they have YOUR best interests at heart. get fucked, you dont have a fucking clue.
Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: LordBerenger on May 22, 2012, 12:04:22 am
^ Only on the internetz do we have an overflow of racists, leftists, atheists, satanists and did i i mention leftists (?) living happily together.


SMH, what a f'n disgrace.
Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: LordBerenger on May 22, 2012, 12:06:00 am
Also you broke the rules. Get out.


Here's a couple of rules to adhere to when posting in this thread

- >  Keep it strictly about pro capitalism stuff  <

>    No liberal Bullshit at all  <

- Absolutely no communism derpski herpski zlavskizki miski piski derpski vladimirski crap

- No ''Occupy wall street'' crap

- No trolling

- No racism
Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: BlindGuy on May 22, 2012, 12:08:03 am
You dont understand, you have made the rules impossible, there is nothing possible to write positive about something so short term, blinding, and inherirantly flawed as capitalism.


BTW: Im not a leftist, Im a realist, but you have not had an education, nor have you developed independant thought, and for this, I pity you
Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: LordBerenger on May 22, 2012, 12:14:15 am
You dont understand, you have made the rules impossible, there is nothing possible to write positive about something so short term, blinding, and inherirantly flawed as capitalism.


BTW: Im not a leftist, Im a realist, but you have not had an education, nor have you developed independant thought, and for this, I pity you

Liberal people love their different kinds of versions of ''leftist''.

And of course you would say that because you support ''WHAT's mine is yours and what's yours is mine'' bs mentality.



No chance for someone with ambitions to gain some capital and spend your money wisely to increase and increase your wealth? No, it's gotta be fair for EVERYONE.

IF you fall down while being chased by a giant boulder coming after you, you expect everyone else running for their life to stay and pick you up?

That's just a load of crap. And realist? What? You basically want to prevent people from living lavish just because unlike others they played their cards well and made the right decisions with their money.
Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: BlindGuy on May 22, 2012, 01:00:10 am
Liberal people love their different kinds of versions of ''leftist''.

And of course you would say that because you support ''WHAT's mine is yours and what's yours is mine'' bs mentality.



No chance for someone with ambitions to gain some capital and spend your money wisely to increase and increase your wealth? No, it's gotta be fair for EVERYONE.

IF you fall down while being chased by a giant boulder coming after you, you expect everyone else running for their life to stay and pick you up?

That's just a load of crap. And realist? What? You basically want to prevent people from living lavish just because unlike others they played their cards well and made the right decisions with their money.


??Im not liberal, I dont believe in sharing, I was trying to explain socialism to you. If a giant bolder is chasing me, I have to wonder where a sentient boulder came from. If ANYONE fell, I would try to help them up, because I'm a decent person. That has no relationship to my political belief.

If you are interested, I am an anarchist, I believe in what I can take and defend with my wit or strengh is mine, if you step on what's mine I will hit you so hard you wont come back again. I defend my family and the people I care about. I always do what I think is right, or what I want.

20 years ago I WAS a socialist, I really wanted what was best for everyone, but 20 years of encountering selfish, ignorant, unthinking people like yourself who parot stupidities you have heard without thinking out the realisms of what your spouting has killed my belief in humanity. Everything you touch you taint with your ignorance, and the worst is that no matter how and why you are disproved and corrected, you will repeat the same short sighted, narrow minded drivel. Cue the drivel:
Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: Havoco on May 22, 2012, 01:11:53 am
+1 to anarchy
Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: LordBerenger on May 22, 2012, 01:17:37 am
You're talking about me being ignorant? And yet you're an anarchist. You believe in a society without a government. You honestly believe ''moral laws'' would keep the population calm and that they would actually behave rationally and think as well?

And you call yourself a ''realist''. You honestly believe in an anarchist society? And you don't think that without a government violence will escalate and gangs will eventually be in charge of your country?


You're the one thinking like a lunatic and have no understanding of the world and how it would act if there's no regulation at all. You're just a joke when it comes to your political views/beliefs.

Juvenile beliefs is what it is.
Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: polkafranzi on May 22, 2012, 01:24:18 am
we have an overflow of racists, leftists, atheists, satanists and did i i mention leftists (?) living happily together.

Which would you class me as derpenger?
Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: LordBerenger on May 22, 2012, 01:25:03 am
Which would you class me as derpenger?

Errrrr........ehmm....KKK member?
Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: polkafranzi on May 22, 2012, 01:26:29 am
Errrrr........ehmm....KKK member?

<----------------------

 :?
Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: BlindGuy on May 22, 2012, 02:02:15 am
You're talking about me being ignorant? And yet you're an anarchist. You believe in a society without a government. You honestly believe ''moral laws'' would keep the population calm and that they would actually behave rationally and think as well?

And you call yourself a ''realist''. You honestly believe in an anarchist society? And you don't think that without a government violence will escalate and gangs will eventually be in charge of your country?


You're the one thinking like a lunatic and have no understanding of the world and how it would act if there's no regulation at all. You're just a joke when it comes to your political views/beliefs.

Juvenile beliefs is what it is.

No...realistic beliefs. I keep what I can hold. A gang may not be nice, but it is an organisation, and yet even while you attempt to lecture me about anarchy you use the word country...you really havent understood the very basics of ANY system, yet feel you can discuss them. Go read a book, or go out and experience the world mate, you are living down a well.
Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: Kafein on May 22, 2012, 02:17:16 am
I'm always confused when people use the word "liberal" in english.

In french it means you support liberty. Of all forms. And that of course means supporting a free economy, free speech, free import/export/immigration/emigration, free social life (the government doesn't tell you what to do with your penis), free religion, church/state separatism (shame on you americans, SHAME ON YOU AND YOUR BACKWARD BIGOT COUNTRY).

So yeah I'm definetly all of the above. I think I'm more like a libertarian in american english words. But there's one big difference though. I do not believe in a strict non-interventionist government. There inevitably exist natural monopolies/oligopolies such as gaz, electricity, telecoms or postal service. Those sectors, even with the best goodwill, will never develop a healthy competitive market, and will also inevitably end up being semi-governmental monsters, with all the corruption you can think of since both are dependant of each other. Other sectors such as education or heathcare have to be somehow guaranteed because they form the basis of society, so they have to be at least partly linked to the government.




Communism is an utopy that proved not to work. And it doesn't work for a very simple reason. People are selfish. And you can't change that. Maybe they aren't selfish with their family and friends, but extremely few people will wholeheartedly accept to give what they earned through their work to such a distant being as "all the other people". Everybody cares about whom they know, but not about the others.

Capitalism doesn't really push society towards equality, but it does work. You can be any type of person, you cannot cheat a capitalist society into not working for the rest of the people.

Also, it is arguable that through working, a capitalist society will increase relative inequalities, but also increase the quality of life of the poor a lot more than that of the rich. Say, being a hobo in Swaziland, you die. Being a hobo in Las Vegas, you can have a decent life. In the 70's the crisis in europe resulted in some of the middle/low class having trouble to buy food. Now the same people are whining they can't buy a smartphone or go on vacation. It's because the prices of general consumption goods are falling that the economy gives numbers showing inequalities, not that "the poor become poorer" as I often hear.
Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: BlindGuy on May 22, 2012, 02:34:12 am
No kafein. Western capitalism only works as long as their is a 3rd world to produce all the consumer goods that are lowering in price. Once they have attained a level of wealth that they no longer feel the need to work for pennies a day, they must then find someone ELSE worse off to produce for them. This cannot be sustained. Only a 2 systems are sustainable: a socialist form, or an anarchistic one.

Im SO tired of reading ppl write about "Socialist state". By its very nature, you cannot have a socialist state. Socialism has NEVER been tested, all attemps to create a single state that is socialist are doomed to failure by a misunderstanding of the very basic element of socialism: EVERYONE has equal wealth BUT ONLY IF THEY ARE EQUALLY productive, there is no space for lazyness, a FUNDAMENTAL part of socialism is that EVERYONE means EVERYONE, not just the people of one state. Of course a single communist state surrounded by countries run by greed will be corrupt, noone can resist the temptation to screw the socialist machine over for personal gain, if they can use that gain in a neighboring country to live a life of indolence. For ANY test of the socialist ideal, it would require THE PLANET to become socialist, and reward for industry. Being industrious in ANY production is valuable. Consuming for the sake of expending is ridiculously unsustainable.


Here is an example of capitalism: In the '70s a washing machine was invented that was durable and well balanced enough that if would not feasibly break without misuse. Frigidaire bought the copyright and fucking buried it. Enough said.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: LordBerenger on May 22, 2012, 03:16:06 am
Sigh.....first of all i wasn't trying to lecture you. Purely trying to defend against what you tried to fire at me.


Secondly...ugh you know what? I'll make this a offical politics thread so you can discuss alongside any other leftists or far right how much you want about all your political ideologies and create a new Pro Capitalism thread and hope that it won't be filled by more leftist talk.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: LordBerenger on May 22, 2012, 10:25:44 am
Bump you commi scum can spread your propaganda here btw.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Vibe on May 22, 2012, 10:32:32 am
Capitalism is a death trap. In communism, world is just!

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Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: LordBerenger on May 22, 2012, 01:44:42 pm
Commi scum
Title: Re: Official Pro-Capitalism Discussion Thread
Post by: Kafein on May 22, 2012, 05:19:03 pm
No kafein. Western capitalism only works as long as their is a 3rd world to produce all the consumer goods that are lowering in price. Once they have attained a level of wealth that they no longer feel the need to work for pennies a day, they must then find someone ELSE worse off to produce for them. This cannot be sustained. Only a 2 systems are sustainable: a socialist form, or an anarchistic one.

Im SO tired of reading ppl write about "Socialist state". By its very nature, you cannot have a socialist state. Socialism has NEVER been tested, all attemps to create a single state that is socialist are doomed to failure by a misunderstanding of the very basic element of socialism: EVERYONE has equal wealth BUT ONLY IF THEY ARE EQUALLY productive, there is no space for lazyness, a FUNDAMENTAL part of socialism is that EVERYONE means EVERYONE, not just the people of one state. Of course a single communist state surrounded by countries run by greed will be corrupt, noone can resist the temptation to screw the socialist machine over for personal gain, if they can use that gain in a neighboring country to live a life of indolence. For ANY test of the socialist ideal, it would require THE PLANET to become socialist, and reward for industry. Being industrious in ANY production is valuable. Consuming for the sake of expending is ridiculously unsustainable.


Here is an example of capitalism: In the '70s a washing machine was invented that was durable and well balanced enough that if would not feasibly break without misuse. Frigidaire bought the copyright and fucking buried it. Enough said.

I don't see the connection between a failure of communism and the existence of other countries or entities. Humans are lazy, if they don't want to work (because they need it usually), they won't. The core problems do not arise at the head of a communist society, but in the population.

But that, even though being what communism actually means in dictionaries and such, is apparently not what you are talking about. States that applied actual communist principles failed because of that very simple lazyness and selfishness problem, not because people could flee the country or because the party members could steal the money (even though they did).

EVERYONE has equal wealth BUT ONLY IF THEY ARE EQUALLY productive

That's capitalism for you. Nobody, and not even a collection of people can decide what "productive" is. A planned economy leads to shortages and excess, as well as severe injustices since prices are fixed. Goods are sold in a first come first served way, instead of prioritizing who is willing to spend more. Ignoring the rules of supply and demand doesn't come without it's price.

What you suggest is more like some sort of fascism. The possibility of freedom doesn't exist in a society where other people decide what you do. People are forced to work in designated factories to produce fixed goods and get fixed money with which they can buy the fixed goods the population produced. A bit like my dwarves in dwarf fortress. And when I mess up and forget to assign some of them to produce wood barrels to stock the food, they die of hunger just like cubans until very recently.


Freedom. A system in which people are not free is not acceptable and not sustainable because everybody seeks freedom.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Arathian on May 22, 2012, 10:35:52 pm
I am a socially conservative, fiscally conservative libertarian.

I am pretty sure you don't want to debate with me.

and reading a bit of the thread, I am pretty sure I don't want to debate with you.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Kafein on May 23, 2012, 12:27:34 am
I am a socially conservative

What does that mean ? Every sperm is sacred ?
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Christo on May 23, 2012, 12:37:06 am
Interesting views at some people, I must say. Especially the anarchy thing, how would that work?
Anway, to my point.

I never liked the whole left to right bullcrap, especially that now in my country one political party holds more than 75% of the Parliament, therefore they are unstoppable and can vote-in anything they want, more and more taxes on the people, making new laws that make their regime stronger while the people get screwed.

Democracy my arse.

I despise the party-system, and would prefer a system where people aren't installed by political parties, but because of their performance and reliability, you know, as independent people.
People who are actually useful for something. So they are serving the interests of the country, and not their political party while ruining the country.

Is there a name for such a political view? (Besides Utopism, of course.)
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: [ptx] on May 23, 2012, 12:52:24 am
I despise the party-system, and would prefer a system where people aren't installed by political parties...

Is there a name for such a political view? (Besides Utopism, of course.)
Demarchy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demarchy) is what you want.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: LordBerenger on May 23, 2012, 12:53:18 am
Interesting views at some people, I must say. Especially the anarchy thing, how would that work?
Anway, to my point.

I never liked the whole left to right bullcrap, especially that now in my country one political party holds more than 75% of the Parliament, therefore they are unstoppable and can vote-in anything they want, more and more taxes on the people, making new laws that make their regime stronger while the people get screwed.

Democracy my arse.

I despise the party-system, and would prefer a system where people aren't installed by political parties, but because of their performance and reliability, you know, as independent people.
People who are actually useful for something. So they are serving the interests of the country, and not their political party while ruining the country.

Is there a name for such a political view? (Besides Utopism, of course.)

Well, you can hope a New World Order would come out publically and gather all countries together in the world into 1 big empire/land and 1 flag, 1 currency, 1 language and hope it's completely FULLY democratic to the core. :)

Derp
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Christo on May 23, 2012, 12:58:10 am
Sure, so they could bring in any kind of a law without opposition.

Even extreme stuff like curfew, or that law enforcers can break into your house for no reason at all, and you can't complain or else you'll disappear.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: LordBerenger on May 23, 2012, 01:07:47 am
Actually i would support that which i said first as a joke as long as it was PURE DEMOCRACY, at its finest. A.ka not just putting your faith in selected politicans.

Much would have to be refined and improved and well thought out though.


But even if it were a possibility humanity wouldn't accept that because humanity doesn't necessarily do what's best for humanity if you get my points. (citizens)

Just take a look at nationalists and you'll see where that plan would fail.


Anyhow just imaginary idea anyhow.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: polkafranzi on May 23, 2012, 01:34:36 am
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Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Arathian on May 23, 2012, 08:06:27 am
What does that mean ? Every sperm is sacred ?

No, however I am against abortion as I consider it murder.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Kafein on May 23, 2012, 10:13:56 am
No, however I am against abortion as I consider it murder.

Then I suppose you never masturbate except in sperm banks ? Losing sperm is murder too.



I thing there are several problem with democracies we know, but the one Christo mentions is interesting. At it's core, that is a corruption problem. In all governments there are people that aren't elected but are part of the government. Ministry employees are the first example that comes to mind. Those people aren't chosen based on their skills, but only on their political affiliation, and that is just plain wrong. Some political parties even push the mechanism as far as to get people to vote for them using the power to "give jobs" this way.

This problem is solvable, and quite easily on top of that. Non-elected officials should be selected based on contests.


The second major problem I see is that mandates are too short. In countries ruled by people that know they will stay in charge until they die, the long term effects are weighted as they should. But a typical 5 years team doesn't really care about what happens in 10 years. Worse yet, when an elected government makes the right long-term decisions, it is usually the following government and the opposite party that enjoy the improved situation and improved ruling party support.

I don't really know what could be a good solution (except demarchy of course), because expanding mandates is also a bad thing.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Arathian on May 23, 2012, 11:50:36 am
Then I suppose you never masturbate except in sperm banks ? Losing sperm is murder too.

How so?
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Christo on May 23, 2012, 06:54:35 pm
I thing there are several problem with democracies we know, but the one Christo mentions is interesting. At it's core, that is a corruption problem.

Heh, well I am experiencing it first hand, and it feels like some kind of a dictatorship, instead of a Democratic system.

Screw Viktor Orban and his god damn Fidesz party. Making our reputation even worse in europe.
Don't judge us based on what he says, the people hate him but he shows a different image to europe.

Thanks.

PS: I found this cool Political Compass, was interesting to get what is my place according to the website.

http://politicalcompass.org/analysis2 (http://politicalcompass.org/analysis2)
Click on "Take the test", then post what you've got. :D

Here's mine:
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Interesting I say, I never consider myself a leftist or rightist, more like an independent thinker, but well.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: B3RS3RK on May 23, 2012, 06:59:31 pm
Then I suppose you never masturbate except in sperm banks ? Losing sperm is murder too.



Leave him be, man.He said he considers it murder.

He is obviously reasonable.You know, I hate those people saying "Abortion is murder, you all go to hell!!!111", but he wrote "I consider it murder".

People can consider whatever the fuck they want.Thats why civilized countrys have freedom of speech.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: [ptx] on May 23, 2012, 07:45:07 pm
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Hurp, leftist? I have always considered myself more towards right-wing :/
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: JennaHaze on May 23, 2012, 07:47:35 pm
Obama sucks dick
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Christo on May 23, 2012, 07:48:46 pm
(click to show/hide)

Hurp, leftist? I have always considered myself more towards right-wing :/

lol, kinda similar to mine
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: LordBerenger on May 23, 2012, 08:25:59 pm
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Meh, reasons were probably that i could care less about racial stuff and culture blah blah crap and wanting a little bit freedom for ending so low towards lib.  Still right though.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on May 24, 2012, 12:20:46 am
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Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: djavo on May 24, 2012, 12:45:35 am
I am Gandhi

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I am hot!
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Arathian on May 24, 2012, 03:57:32 am
:3

(the second test is politicaltest.net, I consider it better because it doesn't mix some categories like, say, religious beliefs and authoritarianism)


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by the way, would it be here a good place to state that I am an atheist?
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Son Of Odin on May 24, 2012, 04:18:55 am
I am Gandhi

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I am hot!
Are you me? :O (I'm not as left as Gandhi but as much libertarian I suppose...)
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Christo on May 24, 2012, 08:47:44 am
:3

(the second test is politicaltest.net, I consider it better because it doesn't mix some categories like, say, religious beliefs and authoritarianism)

by the way, would it be here a good place to state that I am an atheist?

Here's mine:

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Interesting.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Arathian on May 24, 2012, 08:59:25 am
Here's mine:

(click to show/hide)

Interesting.

why so little on anthropocentric?

You god damn hippie!
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Kafein on May 24, 2012, 09:02:01 am
Btw arathian I can't criticize your opinions but I can criticize their coherence :P And the test seems to agree, if that means anything.

Gonna do that test later...
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: [ptx] on May 24, 2012, 09:02:51 am
You are a Liberal. 4 percent of the test participators are in the same category and 68 percent are more extremist than you.
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That seems more plausible, yes.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Christo on May 24, 2012, 09:03:30 am
why so little on anthropocentric?

You god damn hippie!

Hippie, lol.

Made my day.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Arathian on May 24, 2012, 09:07:34 am
Btw arathian I can't criticize your opinions but I can criticize their coherence :P And the test seems to agree, if that means anything.

Gonna do that test later...

You can critisize my opinion all you want. In fact, I encourage rational debate on my opinions since it always helps me improve them (one way or the other)

Actually, here I will lay them down for you:

I am a libertarian, I believe in political non-intervention almost always, I believe in a non-intrusive state religion for moral guidance for the idiots that can't figure by themselves why they shouldn't sleep with 100 people a day, I believe monarchy is a good thing both for the tourism profits and the fact that it can serve as a symbol of national unity. I believe that every nation on Earth should be a federation with direct democracy in the states and semi-representative democracy on national level and the states should have A LOT of power. I believe in a completely free market, no exceptions. There should be no regulations but rigorous fullfillment of contracts. Taxation should be kept at the bare minimum although it is a necessesary evil.

Pick one of these, or multiple, and critize away!


edit: by the way, since it came up. I DO believe abortion is murder, however I also believe it is possibly one of the most irrelevant issues of modern society. First we can start by fixing the god damn economy and then we can figure out what we can do with "strong, empowered women who need 'no da man tellin' me wut to do' "
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: LordBerenger on May 24, 2012, 09:17:30 am
I believe that every nation on Earth should be a federation with direct democracy in the states and semi-representative democracy on national level and the states should have A LOT of power. I believe in a completely free market, no exceptions. There should be no regulations but rigorous fullfillment of contracts. Taxation should be kept at the bare minimum although it is a necessesary evil

+1 to these couple of points.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Kafein on May 24, 2012, 02:06:48 pm
I am a libertarian, I believe in political non-intervention almost always, I believe in a non-intrusive state religion for moral guidance for the idiots that can't figure by themselves why they shouldn't sleep with 100 people a day, I believe monarchy is a good thing both for the tourism profits and the fact that it can serve as a symbol of national unity. I believe that every nation on Earth should be a federation with direct democracy in the states and semi-representative democracy on national level and the states should have A LOT of power. I believe in a completely free market, no exceptions. There should be no regulations but rigorous fullfillment of contracts. Taxation should be kept at the bare minimum although it is a necessesary evil.

I don't think the state should have anything to do with culture or religion. Even in civilized countries (church/state separation) there's still often a funding of religious/assimilitated activities which I consider borderline acceptable. Just like funding culture -> what's the point ? Let people donate what they want, that would be more just (no such thing as a culture authority can exist) and work just as good if not better.

I think the concept of nation has done enough damage to be definetly rejected, but I understand this view is not shared outside of Europe for historical reasons. That's also why I believe in a centralised world government (which is probably going to happen anyway in the future), because more centralisation increases effectiveness, decreases corruption and and decreases the overall weight of the bureaucracy.


Most of these under the belt issues are completely irrelevant but actually become important because the current legislations are so restrictive they become absurd in today's world. Changes to make them up to date should come very naturally as with most other laws but some (usually religious) groups are extremely conservative on these subjects which causes the neverending debates and media attention.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Angantyr on May 24, 2012, 02:11:48 pm
'Under conditions of perfect liberty markets will lead to perfect equality'
- Adam Smith in 'Wealth of Nations'

I have bolded the important premise modern 'capitalists' and 'libertarians' seem to omit. 'Perfect liberty' is likely as much a feverdream as Marx and Engell's egalitarianism.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: LordBerenger on May 24, 2012, 02:15:30 pm
'Under conditions of perfect liberty markets will lead to perfect equality'
- Adam Smith in 'Wealth of Nations'

I have bolded the important premise modern 'capitalists' and 'libertarians' seem to omit. 'Perfect liberty' is likely as much a feverdream as Marx and Engell's egalitarianism.

Or a world government which we need eventually. Just a dream.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Kafein on May 24, 2012, 02:27:34 pm
'Under conditions of perfect liberty markets will lead to perfect equality'
- Adam Smith in 'Wealth of Nations'

I have bolded the important premise modern 'capitalists' and 'libertarians' seem to omit. 'Perfect liberty' is likely as much a feverdream as Marx and Engell's egalitarianism.

Yet even if this quote was somehow proved true (which it can't be considering how vague it is), it would be irrelevant as an anti-market argument. The choice is not about equality, it's about what works and what doesn't. Equality is good but is secondary if it means starving equally fast.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Arathian on May 24, 2012, 02:39:49 pm
I don't think the state should have anything to do with culture or religion. Even in civilized countries (church/state separation) there's still often a funding of religious/assimilitated activities which I consider borderline acceptable. Just like funding culture -> what's the point ? Let people donate what they want, that would be more just (no such thing as a culture authority can exist) and work just as good if not better.
Agreed. I never said the church should receive funding. I simply said it should be the moral guide of a nation. If you will, the official "here's what you gotta do if you don't want to be a dick - idiot edition " guide provided by the state.

I think the concept of nation has done enough damage to be definetly rejected, but I understand this view is not shared outside of Europe for historical reasons. That's also why I believe in a centralised world government (which is probably going to happen anyway in the future), because more centralisation increases effectiveness, decreases corruption and and decreases the overall weight of the bureaucracy.

How on earth does centralization and an EXTREMELY bloated bureucracy lead to more efficiency and less corruption? Since the begining of time, empirical evidence shows the exact opposite happens.

I won't discuss whether the concept of nation is a valid one as this is not politics but philosophy (but to note: I believe the nation to be the most important structure of society except for family)

Yet even if this quote was somehow proved true (which it can't be considering how vague it is), it would be irrelevant as an anti-market argument. The choice is not about equality, it's about what works and what doesn't. Equality is good but is secondary if it means starving equally fast.

Agreed, thus it is fortunate that the only current economic system that doesn't let its people starve is capitalism  :wink:
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Angantyr on May 24, 2012, 03:15:27 pm
Agreed, thus it is fortunate that the only current economic system that doesn't let its people starve is capitalism  :wink:
Plenty of non-capitalistic economic systems throughout history have kept people fed. There's also plenty of capitalistic countries today that have millions of people starving every single day.

This is just a note, not an ideological perspective  :wink:
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Arathian on May 24, 2012, 03:21:35 pm
Plenty of non-capitalistic economic systems throughout history have kept people fed. There's also plenty of capitalistic countries today that have millions of people starving every single day.

This is just a note, not an ideological perspective  :wink:

which and which.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Angantyr on May 24, 2012, 03:47:32 pm
For example the manorial and mercantile systems of the Middle Ages. Or the self-sufficient agricultural systems in effect in most ancient cultures throughout history.

Capitalist countries with hunger or starvation problems includes major countries like China, the US and India.

Some quick facts on hunger and starvation in the World.

Quote
(click to show/hide)
Source:http://library.thinkquest.org/C002291/high/present/stats.htm


Again, I'm not really an ideologue, I'm only arguing that starvation is not only a matter of economic model but more available ressources (mostly historically and geographically determined) and the distribution of wealth.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: LordBerenger on May 24, 2012, 04:16:57 pm
Relieved nobody have voted for Far Left. But a couple of brainwashed sheep voted Far Right though.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Kafein on May 24, 2012, 04:20:15 pm
Agreed. I never said the church should receive funding. I simply said it should be the moral guide of a nation. If you will, the official "here's what you gotta do if you don't want to be a dick - idiot edition " guide provided by the state.

So for you the don't be a dick for dummies guide should include... what exactly ? Most religions and religious authorities want to spread plenty of things that I personally consider good such as forgiveness and solidarity. But this is very different than what is actually written in the whole reference material when it exists. Not to forget monotheisms are by definition mutually exclusive. Which religion would you choose ? And if you choose one, you are making a serious moral error anyway, since they are all just as valid.

The idea of absolute morality is imo another thing that did extensive damage in the past. See the Inquisition. Not only is it impossible to apply in practice, but also because morality cannot be summarized as a set of rules. It is very far from being only a matter of culture, it is hardcoded among many other things such as altruism in our neurological reward mechanisms.

Finally, and for the same reasons, you cannot "enforce" a specific morality to someone. They already have one.

Of course laws are needed, but a guide to morality is both impossible to write and useless.

How on earth does centralization and an EXTREMELY bloated bureucracy lead to more efficiency and less corruption? Since the begining of time, empirical evidence shows the exact opposite happens.

It's the point I'm the least sure about tbh. But I believe a more centralised government will use less ressources (that's almost certain considering the scale economies) and be more efficient because many decisions are required to be taken everywhere at the same time to be effective. Such as tax changes, global warming stuff... It also pushes towards cooperation rather than conflict between local authorities.

I won't discuss whether the concept of nation is a valid one as this is not politics but philosophy (but to note: I believe the nation to be the most important structure of society except for family)

The importance of the family is evident and is very far from being a new concept. It's older than our sentience and has stayed so there's probably something right about it. But I fail to see why I should be more emotionally linked to my "nation" than with the rest of the world. I find it quite hypocritical when I hear 94 person died in an accident, 3 of which were of my country and the journalist only cares about those 3.

Plenty of non-capitalistic economic systems throughout history have kept people fed. There's also plenty of capitalistic countries today that have millions of people starving every single day.

This is just a note, not an ideological perspective  :wink:

Very few economic systems that were truly non-capitalistic were ever used throughout history. Money is a little more than two millenias old iirc, and before that people used bartering. This is the essence, together with technological progress, of what actually allowed an increasing fraction of the population not to devote 100% of their working time to their own survival.

Food is probably a bad example because you could have a "system" with everyone living in autarky and a very small population, but that is not a dream either. How are we going to conquer space if everybody has to work for food ?




Btw berenger how do you managed to get a forum title ? Constant trolling ?
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: LordBerenger on May 24, 2012, 04:44:11 pm

Btw berenger how do you managed to get a forum title ? Constant trolling ?

Lol i never troll noob. I'm a gentleman. And that's that.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Kafein on May 24, 2012, 05:11:56 pm
Lol i never troll noob. I'm a gentleman. And that's that.

It's so bad it does actually work like that and I already have a title. I'm trolling you so hard right now.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: cmp on May 24, 2012, 06:23:03 pm
It's so bad it does actually work like that and I already have a title. I'm trolling you so hard right now.

Membergroup != title. Back with the peasants!
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Kafein on May 24, 2012, 07:12:33 pm
Membergroup != title. Back with the peasants!

Ha I see...

Maybe the nobility titles should also have an influence over the forum titles then.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: B3RS3RK on May 24, 2012, 07:18:41 pm
Im apparently a "World open Social Democrat"(I have it on german, weirdly, so I cant link it)

Humm...
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Laufknoten on May 24, 2012, 07:49:44 pm
I voted "right" on the poll, but here's the result of the test lol.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Kafein on May 24, 2012, 08:10:03 pm
This is fun xD

You are a neoliberal Democrat. 6 percent of the test participators are in the same category and 2 percent are more extremist than you.

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It seems I'm a bloody extremist.

Also, 67% anarchistic what the hell.


Some questions are so badly written I ended up not responding. Others are really open for interpretation. What does "I agree in part" to a "blahblahblah must never blahblahblah" sentence mean ?
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: LordBerenger on May 24, 2012, 08:20:23 pm

Some questions are so badly written I ended up not responding. Others are really open for interpretation. What does "I agree in part" to a "blahblahblah must never blahblahblah" sentence mean ?

Example, ''A country always resort to peaceful solutions and must never try violent ones''

If you say i agree in part to you basically say that you try to go for peaceful solutions most of the time but you're not a retard and understands when hope is lost and put in ze army.

Just an example.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Dezilagel on May 24, 2012, 08:27:50 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


But as always, a lot of questions really suck by assuming lots of things such as the want for state/school etc.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Kafein on May 25, 2012, 01:49:51 am
I still wonder what are all the questions that influence the visionary/reactionary value. I can certainly identify a few of them but to me it seems there are less than other questions. Maybe it's me being an old fart, maybe it's the test considering being "progressive" isn't really about believing in progress per se but rather a choice between solutions that are currently considered as old or new to current issues.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Nessaj on May 25, 2012, 04:32:45 am
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 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhopFYj_BXQ)
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Kafein on May 25, 2012, 11:01:03 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhopFYj_BXQ)

Is there a version without music ? Also, lol at the related videos xD Ron Paul, Ron Paul, Ron Paul. Youtube candidate ftw.
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: LordBerenger on June 04, 2012, 12:33:10 am
Bump!
Title: Re: Official Politics Thread!
Post by: Christo on June 18, 2012, 01:02:26 am
Demarchy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demarchy) is what you want.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy)

Actually, this is closer to my point.

I remember writing the exact same thing in an essay about politics once.

Yeah, bump