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cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Akynos on May 20, 2012, 09:41:21 am

Title: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Akynos on May 20, 2012, 09:41:21 am
Hello c-rpg community,
Firstly, I'd like to point out that this is not a rage topic. In fact, I haven't fought a mauler in ages. But I think it needs to change based on a balancing concept.
I believe many of you already have had a good experience of a mauler's gameplay.However I'll give a typical situation when a two-hander faces a mauler, and so explain why I believe the Great Maul's stats need to be modified.

You are a 24/15 two hander with a danish. Typical build and equipment.You wander through the battlefield, slicing your daily rabble.Suddenly, a wild mauler appears. Mighty weapon, loomed heavy armor, STR build. Supposedly slow guy. He comes towards you. Aware of the dangerous tincan, you start to play on the reach,and you land two hits. But then, the mauler comes close to you.Your attack hits, he naturally blocks, and swings overhead. BAM ! CT'ed. Hurts. Ok, he got you, but you prepare to attack him, now that he swung his heavy weapon at you, he is bound to be vulnerable now.
But..what? I'm stunned? Hey, he's swinging again? but how? his weapon weighs 10 kilograms! He can't possibly...OH SH...
BAM!
BAM!
''-Kiss the dirt, scumbag.''

So you guessed it, our poor fella never had a chance because the mauler could spam him on overheads once he hit him once.
This kind of situation usually happens with STR-orientated builds, agi's or 1h do not have a problem ( even though it may happen to them as well)
I believe it is a gameplay mistake that maulers can spam. Such a weapon is really heavy, and with such a pressure applied from the overhead, combining the gravity and the arm's strength, it must be extreeeeeemely slow to chamber again.

Of course, some of you will say that it is very possible to defeat a mauler by moving around,etc. But then again, you need a certain amount of agility to do this. I have STR-orientated characters,and whenever I face a decent mauler, the guy just blocks my hits and he just needs to touch me once and bam, I'm toast.

However, I believe the speed rating of the weapon needs to be changed into a higher value. Why? Because the weapon's swings feel too slow for the force that is applied to them.
I have a 15 kg weight set at home.If I try swinging it,I'm going to have to apply a lot of pressure for it to make a swing. But when it does, it is relatively fast.
The mauls In-Game work the opposite way: It takes little time to chamber and swing it, but the swings are very slow. You can actually make a 360 between the release and the hit.
I don't want to base my opinion on me swinging a weight set, but that is just to illustrate the idea.

So what do I suggest?

-Add a short stun for the mauler after a swing. This represents the small amount of time needed to stop the weapon and chamber it back into position, because of the enormous force that is needed to first slow down the weapon and then swing it back the other way to re-chamber. Of course, the person that got mauled should not be able to swing back while the mauler is stunned, that would be unfair.

-General speed rating of the maul would be substancially increased. Swings would be much faster.

-Maybe a slight damage buff to compensate for the impossibility of spamming.

So what would the result give? A mauler would not mindlessly spam. He would have to time his move right. He would not get spammed to death himself while he swings, because his swings would be faster. Everybody would be happy, because no one would rage due to intense spam: It will take a bit more intelligence and patience for a mauler to defeat an ennemy, yet it will be slightly simpler. If the enemy makes a mistake, it will not be the end for him : Once hit, he can strike back or move out of the maulers range, and then find a way to beat him with the reach, footwork, kicks or chambers.
I believe that this will give opportunities for maulers to be an attractive class that will be well seen by the community, instead of being seen as  the 'noob abuse', 'spam machine' of today.

Thank you for your consideration ! Please tell me what you think of my idea.
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Molly on May 20, 2012, 09:59:58 am
First off, your suggestion is very well written and it is obvious you've put some effort into it. Unfortunately that's something rare in here ;)

This doesn't change that I have to disagree. Mauler are one of the few classes which seem to be actually balanced in crpg. I feel the urge to rant about lolstabbing now but I try not to give in.
Maulers are slow, obvious in their appearance and their intent. It's actually pretty easy to avoid them if your build doesn't fit the requirements to kill him head on or just out-maneuver him. On the other hand is timing already key in playing a Maul.

Dedicated Mauler aren't spamming and I don't think that those people are not respected. 24/15 builds who normally use a 2h and take a maul just for the "lulz" on the other hand add to the bad reputation of the maul.

Well, I lack the arguments but my gut tells me that Maulers are fine like they are...  8-)
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Kalp on May 20, 2012, 10:14:17 am
.
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Cup1d on May 20, 2012, 10:17:42 am
I think that «crushthrough» is already a gift for any weapon. Also 43 blunt damage is already very good. Even Knockdown is 40% chance to win with one succesful hit.
One question though - do you really think that idea to combine this all in one weapon is good for balance?

P.S. - I don't mind about simple maul with crushtrough. 34 blunt damage is good for weapon that's can't be blocked, if you know how to abuse builds mechanics.

The mauls In-Game work the opposite way: It takes little time to chamber and swing it, but the swings are very slow. You can actually make a 360 between the release and the hit.

This is another feature to abuse.
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Paul on May 20, 2012, 10:22:10 am
Toughen up, Esmeralda. Especially Danish users with their great reach have good chances to beat a mauler.
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Tzar on May 20, 2012, 10:31:46 am
I still cant believe people come on these forums to whine about this trash weapon this late in the cRPG period  :rolleyes:

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Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Akynos on May 20, 2012, 11:31:53 am
Thank you already for your considerate answers.

@Benkei : Well, I disagree with you as you see, but hey, I've given my arguments, if you still feel its balanced,we'll just have to settle on our different opinions ^^ but do you at least see what I mean with 'maul spam'?

@Cup1d: If I understand you well, you believe no change should be made?

Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Vexus on May 20, 2012, 11:45:58 am
Man do you know how slow is the block animation of the great maul and mallet? Use that in your advantage.

Ps. If you are having problems fighting a mauler why not just run away or wait for some more allies?

I mean you can't have easy fights every time, choose your opponents wisely and you'll do fine.
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Cup1d on May 20, 2012, 11:55:44 am
Akynos

I think that something must be nerfed. Damage output, Crushthrough chance, Knockdown or requirements. Great maul is one of fantasy weapons in cRPG - make fantasy requirements for this weapon - 24 or 27 str. This way it'll be impossible to have great maul and 7-8 athletics at once.

Tzar

21\21 build with great maul is reasonable fast. so your backpedalling advise is meh.


P.S.
Another way - make Crushthrough chance same as Knockdown chance. Maximum 30-40% chance is good enough for IWIN tactics.
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Leshma on May 20, 2012, 11:59:09 am
I don't care anymore about great maul. Still think it's broken weapon but don't care about it and don't give a damn will they change it or not.

However, I think that every dedicated mauler is a nab.
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Teeth on May 20, 2012, 12:50:09 pm
I used to think mauls are fine. I thought they were very situational and not all that effective overall in battle, back then almost no one used a maul in battle. Now the number of plate maulers is growing, and it becomes clear to me that mauls are just easy mode. I see very average players get very good scores, simply because they use mauls and plate. Once they get one hit in you are screwed.

I myself don't even really know how to properly fight maulers with some classes, they move forwards faster than I move backwards even when in plate. Sure you can outrange em with one attack, maybe two, but then they are in range. Spamming doesn't really work with the aforementioned Danish, sometimes you can attack twice before the overhead lands, but a lot of the times you just dont make it. Then there is the risk of glancing on the plate, the risk of getting stunned, the fact that you need 5 hits+ to kill him and if he hits you once you are dead.

This is only coming from my experience fighting the maulers on EU_1, most of them aren't even all that good. If a really good player goes maul and plate there is very little to counter him.

I think the great maul should be nerfed, maybe not in this way, but it is really a very easy weapon to fight with.
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: zagibu on May 20, 2012, 01:07:07 pm
I think the OP's suggestion is very good. I'm not sure if it's possible, though. Maybe a damage nerf could also work.
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Akynos on May 20, 2012, 01:52:58 pm
I used to think mauls are fine. I thought they were very situational and not all that effective overall in battle, back then almost no one used a maul in battle. Now the number of plate maulers is growing, and it becomes clear to me that mauls are just easy mode. I see very average players get very good scores, simply because they use mauls and plate. Once they get one hit in you are screwed.

I myself don't even really know how to properly fight maulers with some classes, they move forwards faster than I move backwards even when in plate. Sure you can outrange em with one attack, maybe two, but then they are in range. Spamming doesn't really work with the aforementioned Danish, sometimes you can attack twice before the overhead lands, but a lot of the times you just dont make it. Then there is the risk of glancing on the plate, the risk of getting stunned, the fact that you need 5 hits+ to kill him and if he hits you once you are dead.

This is only coming from my experience fighting the maulers on EU_1, most of them aren't even all that good. If a really good player goes maul and plate there is very little to counter him.

I think the great maul should be nerfed, maybe not in this way, but it is really a very easy weapon to fight with.

Teeth has gone through the same experiences than I have. All the problems I've seen with maul are mentioned in his post.


Akynos

I think that something must be nerfed. Damage output, Crushthrough chance, Knockdown or requirements. Great maul is one of fantasy weapons in cRPG - make fantasy requirements for this weapon - 24 or 27 str. This way it'll be impossible to have great maul and 7-8 athletics at once.

P.S.
Another way - make Crushthrough chance same as Knockdown chance. Maximum 30-40% chance is good enough for IWIN tactics.

I don't believe this is the right way to deal with the problem. I think having a CT percent chance like knockdown is vicious for maulers. Remember, I am not against maulers, for I have been one myself. I want the best output for everyone, and adding random stats or just decreasing damage output is not a good idea in my opinion. As for high reqs, I was a full plated mauler full STR, and trust me, only agi builds could avoid my spam. Like Teeth said, once I was in range, they were useless. All they could hope for was for ME to make a mistake, not for them to play well. I stand firm on my suggestion. :)

Man do you know how slow is the block animation of the great maul and mallet? Use that in your advantage.

Ps. If you are having problems fighting a mauler why not just run away or wait for some more allies?

I mean you can't have easy fights every time, choose your opponents wisely and you'll do fine.

Blocks are not influenced by WPF. A mauler can block any attack,as long as he is not affected by the 'unbalanced' effect.

I am talking about strict 1vs 1 situations. Of course if you have allies you have a better chance, mauler or not. But yeah, in battle
the best choice would be to teamgank.

Anyway, thank you for your answers !

Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Dezilagel on May 20, 2012, 02:24:24 pm
Non-idiot maulers stun you with a held sideswing and then overhead = basically impossible to stop except via kicking.

Mauls aren't horribly, horribly broken but they do make shitty players a threat.

I still vouch for making CT only apply to shields and buffing mauls as general combat weps instead.
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Tot. on May 20, 2012, 02:27:07 pm
Mighty weapon, loomed heavy armor, STR build. Supposedly slow guy. He comes towards you. Aware of the dangerous tincan, you start to play on the reach,and you land two hits. But then, the mauler comes close to you.Your attack hits, he naturally blocks, and swings overhead. BAM ! CT'ed. Hurts. Ok, he got you

No, he didn't, since anyone half-competent and who knows which end to stick them with knows that you go for the second swing always vs. mauler unless you see him doing side swing. Dont confuse your ignorance regarding game mechanics with actual flaws within it.

Btw. 24/15 is STR build, not "basic" 2h.
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: JennaHaze on May 20, 2012, 02:51:29 pm
10 kg is not so heavy...
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Tyr_ on May 20, 2012, 02:58:12 pm
I think mauler are fine as they are atm, you just have to know HOW to fight them. As soon as you do a stab or an overhead against a mauler youre fucked.
The trick is just to to sideswings and hiltslashes. Whenever the mauler is going for an overhead after he blocked a sideswing, spam him. He will be too slow with his attack, the only chance for a mauler to bring in overheads is after he blocked an overhead or stab. Fighting against maulers all you've to do is blocking his sideswings and spamming whenever he does an overhead, but NEVER attack him with an overhead or a stab.
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Bulzur on May 20, 2012, 03:27:22 pm
Great Maul is totally fine.

On the other hand... the mallet is a realy good weapon. Especially considering it's price.
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Akynos on May 20, 2012, 03:55:10 pm
Unfortunately, it seems people did not read my topic properly and believed I was raging against mauls.

No, he didn't, since anyone half-competent and who knows which end to stick them with knows that you go for the second swing always vs. mauler unless you see him doing side swing. Dont confuse your ignorance regarding game mechanics with actual flaws within it.

Btw. 24/15 is STR build, not "basic" 2h.

Tot,like many other people, you seem to have skipped my point. I am not here to debate on 'how to beat a mauler'. I am saying that the capacity for a mauler to crush-spam anyone who isn't agi-based is wrong. Perhaps it is my 'inability' in the game, but then again I am not a beginner and other good players have had the same issue.

24/15, yeah, thats more a STR build, I agree.

Remember, I am not saying maulers are unbeatable and should be nerfed, not at ALL, I am saying the way the Mauls work should be changed slightly. Please read the topic carefully.

First of all, it is not "10kg weapon", but 8.5kg AFTER you've loomed it 3rd time.

Of course.10 kg is simply representative. The maul is heavy, that's what I mean.



Second of all, you have no problem disregarding the fact that, in real life, NOONE could survive a SINGLE overhead hit with that weapon, no matter what armor they wore.

This is game balance discussion, not realism disscussion.Don't get confused on what is debated here.


And finally, have fun getting your behind kissed by all the non maulers replying.

Spread your hate elsewhere. Have a wank, it helps.

I think mauler are fine as they are atm, you just have to know HOW to fight them. As soon as you do a stab or an overhead against a mauler youre fucked.
The trick is just to to sideswings and hiltslashes. Whenever the mauler is going for an overhead after he blocked a sideswing, spam him. He will be too slow with his attack, the only chance for a mauler to bring in overheads is after he blocked an overhead or stab. Fighting against maulers all you've to do is blocking his sideswings and spamming whenever he does an overhead, but NEVER attack him with an overhead or a stab.

Thank you for the explanation Tyr, but I know the tactics to beat a mauler :) but like I told Tot, I do not rage against mauls and ask them to be nerfed. ITS NOT A NERF. I played mauler and fought maulers. I won and lost against them. I just think it is unfair for people who do not have much athletics to be powerless against crushthrough spam. Once hit, you are DEAD, and I think this is unfair. To balance for the stun, I think mauls should be given another advantage, such as increased speed rating. It's a 'trade' sort of :D

Thank you for your answers .
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Leshma on May 20, 2012, 04:54:55 pm
I used to think mauls are fine. I thought they were very situational and not all that effective overall in battle, back then almost no one used a maul in battle. Now the number of plate maulers is growing, and it becomes clear to me that mauls are just easy mode. I see very average players get very good scores, simply because they use mauls and plate. Once they get one hit in you are screwed.

Great Maul and Long Spear are noob friendly weapons. Just watch closely some newer people and their strugle in cRPG. First they pick shielder, get owned. Then they try that simpy OP greatsword from Denmark. Kill some noobs, get owned by everybody else. Then they either go Maul or Long Spear way (with as much STR as they can have).

Many of noobs used to go either archery or cavalry but those were nerfed so aren't appealing anymore.

Current trends in cRPG EU:

1) Pikes
2) Throwing
3) Mauls
4) Cav
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Akynos on May 20, 2012, 05:55:03 pm
Game balance does not equal selective argumentation.

You introduced realism aspect by implying that it is "not possible" for someone to "swing so frequent" with a "weapon weighting 10 kilograms"

Many things in cRPG aren't possible, such as blocking swords with a 0 slot hammer, but it's a much deeper issue than just rebalancing one weapon.
I agree, we should use real life arguments.However, it must stick to the argumentation. You tell me that I do not consider that mauls one-shot in real life? fine, what do you suggest? 60b? I didnt consider as well that your maul could slip because of your sweaty mittens and fall on your foot, which cripples you for the battle and would be considered a suicide IG. Yeah.Let's be careful with the RL elements we put it, shall we? :)
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Tot. on May 20, 2012, 06:07:12 pm
Tot,like many other people, you seem to have skipped my point. I am not here to debate on 'how to beat a mauler'. I am saying that the capacity for a mauler to crush-spam anyone who isn't agi-based is wrong.

I just explained, as many others, that mauler simply cannot "crush-spam" anyone who isnt afk, hence your whole argument is wrong. ATH is irrelevant as long as you remember not to succumb into "attack then block" scheme versus maul.

just think it is unfair for people who do not have much athletics to be powerless against crushthrough spam. Once hit, you are DEAD, and I think this is unfair.

And by the way, you are fully capable of squeezing in a swing after being hit with an maul overhead if using anything even remotely fast, all one-handed weapons included and most of the 2h. Competent mauler fighting competent person will never go for a second overhead after hitting with first one because he will get spammed.

The only people who are truly screwed when meeting great maul are pikers. But honestly, they deserve it, those pokey asshats, don't they? Don't they?

PS.
I think mauler are fine as they are atm, you just have to know HOW to fight them. As soon as you do a stab or an overhead against a mauler youre fucked.

The stab part is obviously true, but are you sure about the overhead? I don't think there's enough stun from it to give time for mauls main attack in before the swing follow-up connects.
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: BlindGuy on May 20, 2012, 06:15:43 pm
Read the op, and most of thread, and only logical response is:


IF YOU USE FANTASY WEAPON SUCH AS DANISH OR ANY GREATSWORD AND COMPLAIN ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE INGAME YOUR A MASSIVE NAB.
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Teeth on May 20, 2012, 07:10:31 pm
I think mauler are fine as they are atm, you just have to know HOW to fight them. As soon as you do a stab or an overhead against a mauler youre fucked.
The trick is just to to sideswings and hiltslashes. Whenever the mauler is going for an overhead after he blocked a sideswing, spam him. He will be too slow with his attack, the only chance for a mauler to bring in overheads is after he blocked an overhead or stab. Fighting against maulers all you've to do is blocking his sideswings and spamming whenever he does an overhead, but NEVER attack him with an overhead or a stab.
What about the part where you get stunned horribly with a held sideswing?

Oh and hiltslashes are a brilliant idea, lets facehug the guy with the 68 length weapon. Then there is the fact that you can't always sideswingspam a great mauler if he has decent footwork.
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Akynos on May 20, 2012, 07:23:04 pm
Again, you misunderstood me. I pointed out that YOU used real life arguments only to tell me that "This is game balance discussion, not realism disscussion.Don't get confused on what is debated here."

As I told you, real life arguments can be used, but it has to be related to the topic.. I'm talking about crushthrough spam, which involves real life facts such as RL speed for a 10 8.517 kg weapon. The amount of damage that is done is unrelated to the fact that you can crushspam.

Anyway, I don't hold a grudge against you, we all get confused in such discussions, and I appreciate your comments like anyone else's. Perhaps I misunderstood you from the beginning, then I am sorry :)

I just explained, as many others, that mauler simply cannot "crush-spam" anyone who isnt afk, hence your whole argument is wrong. ATH is irrelevant as long as you remember not to succumb into "attack then block" scheme versus maul.


Again, Tot, you seem to have forgotten that I do not discuss about how to fight a mauler and avoid his spam. That is not what I am talking about. I am talking when you are, actively, hit by a maul, not before.


And by the way, you are fully capable of squeezing in a swing after being hit with an maul overhead if using anything even remotely fast, all one-handed weapons included and most of the 2h. Competent mauler fighting competent person will never go for a second overhead after hitting with first one because he will get spammed.


Remotely fast.Give me one of your scimitars and I'll agree. Now try that same thing with a weapon with 90 speed rating, and see if you can squeeze a hit. As I have said in the OP, not everyone is affected by crushspam. As I said before, agi builds or 1h can attack after a CT.I'm talking about those who physically cannot, not because of a lack of skill, but because the game mechanics forbid it.

Anyway, thank you for your response Tot :)

Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Tot. on May 20, 2012, 08:00:10 pm
That is not what I am talking about. I am talking when you are, actively, hit by a maul, not before.

Then we should use same argument "it's wrong you can't defend yourself once you're hit" to all polearm class weapons and their stagger. Now that is something I can agree with that is wrong since it actually does make you lose control over your character and no matter what you do you will get hit again. And polearms are far more common than mauls.  :wink:
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: San on May 20, 2012, 08:01:45 pm
It's a dedicated support weapon with obvious strengths and weaknesses. For 1hs, maulers can't overhead twice period, as long as you left swing (it out speeds right swing though). Block stun and frame perfect overhead after block that is difficult/can't be spammed can be a pain, but only good players do that.

I feel that 3 slots nerf a while back was appropriate enough. They have few other options for weapons, get shot up by ranged, and harassed by cavalry.


For "stun", they can make it so the overhead can collide on the ground or something easily, like the very long 1hs. But the speed will need to be substantially increased in a way. Still can't think of that as any better than what we have now though..
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Akynos on May 20, 2012, 08:51:31 pm
Then we should use same argument "it's wrong you can't defend yourself once you're hit" to all polearm class weapons and their stagger. Now that is something I can agree with that is wrong since it actually does make you lose control over your character and no matter what you do you will get hit again. And polearms are far more common than mauls.  :wink:

Despite being a polearmer these times, I agree that polestun is..well..to keep it simple...bullshit.It doesnt stop me from using it tho :D
But I'd like to stay on the crushthrough case, plenty of topics to diverge onto polestun :) But put yourself at my place, Tot, you're a Str-char,
and a if a mauler manages to hit you, you can't reply back, like polestun, yeah. If I'm 1h, no prob, but with this build, I'm toast, and I think that's BS as well. Would you agree with me that this feature unbalances the game? :)

It's a dedicated support weapon with obvious strengths and weaknesses. For 1hs, maulers can't overhead twice period, as long as you left swing (it out speeds right swing though). Block stun and frame perfect overhead after block that is difficult/can't be spammed can be a pain, but only good players do that.

I feel that 3 slots nerf a while back was appropriate enough. They have few other options for weapons, get shot up by ranged, and harassed by cavalry.


For "stun", they can make it so the overhead can collide on the ground or something easily, like the very long 1hs. But the speed will need to be substantially increased in a way. Still can't think of that as any better than what we have now though..
I believe a stun effect will make it better, because maulers will have to time their attacks well and use more grey cells, but this will not come as a disadvantage. Other players who will not get sensely spammed will not be pissed off and will see maulers as a class that requires skill. Everybody would be better off :)
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Leshma on May 20, 2012, 09:26:12 pm
The stab part is obviously true, but are you sure about the overhead? I don't think there's enough stun from it to give time for mauls main attack in before the swing follow-up connects.

It's about stun, it's about chamber. If you do overhead they can chamber it and you're dead.
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Tot. on May 20, 2012, 09:50:20 pm
But put yourself at my place (...) you're a Str-char and a if a mauler manages to hit you (...) with this build, I'm toast, and I think that's BS as well. Would you agree with me that this feature unbalances the game?

Then also we would certainly need to agree on that archers, crossbows and other thrower cowards unbalance the game because shieldless two-handers and polearms have no means to defend themselves against it. What you're saying is basically nerf change my counter-class because it counters me.

it's about chamber. If you do overhead they can chamber it and you're dead.

It's so risky that I don't think anyone sane would go for it on purpose. Fair enough though.
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: BlindGuy on May 20, 2012, 10:28:53 pm

It's so risky that I don't think anyone sane would go for it on purpose. Fair enough though.

Whaaaa.....overhead is 2nd easiest chamber. (1st easiest is lance stab, that can be chambered all the live long day, unless its by a goon with over 9000 riding that fakes the commit well)
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Tot. on May 20, 2012, 10:36:31 pm
With a great maul? Really?  :wink:
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Akynos on May 20, 2012, 10:38:42 pm
Then also we would certainly need to agree on that archers, crossbows and other thrower cowards unbalance the game because shieldless two-handers and polearms have no means to defend themselves against it. What you're saying is basically nerf change my counter-class because it counters me.

Tot...there again, you lose it. Archers are made to shoot people who are uncovered. Maulers are not meant to pound down someone senselessly. They are supposed to have a quick overhead slash ( faster than current) but should NOT be able to spam for the reasons aforementioned...now if you cannot understand that simple concept, I can't do anything for you, my friend, end of discussion.
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: BlindGuy on May 20, 2012, 10:43:28 pm
Maulers are not meant to pound down someone senselessly. They are supposed to have a quick overhead slash


Erm, you got that backbards....
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: tankmen on May 20, 2012, 10:47:30 pm
basically make the maul swing faster will balance this ? im almost fine with this, increase the length so that the natural counter of back peddling doesnt bone me over, cause if i lose my crushthru spam which is my one save when i catch the S key hero then i need length to battle him. because this whole thread is about helping a build fight another build/weapon correct ?
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Leshma on May 21, 2012, 12:22:12 am
With a great maul? Really?  :wink:

Well, look at it like this:

I have 6 PS, he has 12 PS and god knows how many HP and plate armor. I need 5 or more succesful overhead hits to kill him. The more I spam regular overheads the greater the chance is that he'll manage to chamber one of those hits (just by pure luck). Even if he can't respond, I might glance once and then I'm dead.

Bottom line is, it's not smart to do overhead attacks against maulers.
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: v/onMega on May 21, 2012, 11:56:12 am
Great Maul and Mallet.

How many dedicated users can you find? Remember Burrick for being one of the few....and he knew his shit.

Regular players by far get the highest boost by Awlpike + Long Spear. Attack out of the second row, polestun kill mob everybody.

Now see the difference...imo a Great Maul is great, after you surpassed and mastered three things (that dont affect Long Spears or other classes with range that much):

- You real carefully maneuveur, avoiding crowds with long weapons
- You by that need to surpass your awful range
- You carefully time your attacks

Again, ppl. underestimate that gmaul takes good thinking to be effective.

20% of the maps are gmaul land, sure. The rest is a cav infested, longspear mob land, being the worst enviroment for mauls.

Like Paul said, using your range or speed is key. Using your positioning is the entry point.

One thing is certain...it always was and will be....-buff the awareness of ppl. and great mauls have no chance to dance-

Keep em the way they are.
Also agree with tyr and tot.
But these are all suggestions of players that have proven to have skill in battle ;-)

Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Leshma on May 21, 2012, 01:09:02 pm
It's easy for you vMega. You can always stun great maul user, after that it's easy mode.
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: v/onMega on May 21, 2012, 01:52:37 pm
Was wondering why you "overreact" a little, knowing you, as someone with enough skill, Leshma...?

Cant deny, stagger makes life easier in such cases.
Though you should know, I was dedicated 2h for what, 2 years.

Guess what, next gen is 1h again.
There will be no blame against maulers, no, just a nice challange.


Be asured, whenever i come back to 2h, i get a hard donkey because 2h swords in general have the least flaws and downsides, considering you know what u are doing...deep inside, you know i am right.

I dont think many ppl. ever tried everything they could to face maulers effectively...but therefore invest time into telling others how obviously the cant handle range.

Remember, this aint no barmace situation (which was completly retarded and off)

Mauls biggest strentghs imply tremedous disadvantages, ur job to force maulers into these scenarios...or?
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Gurnisson on May 21, 2012, 02:57:15 pm
I've never had a problem with mauls myself, but I don't like seeing bad players being extremely effective by making a strength build with maul and plate.
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: BlindGuy on May 21, 2012, 03:58:32 pm
HERRO I AM ROCK. SCISSORS IS OK BUT PAPER IS OP
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Rebelyell on May 21, 2012, 04:13:56 pm
I've never had a problem with mauls myself, but I don't like seeing bad players being extremely effective by making a strength build with maul and plate.
bad players have problems with blocks and attack direction
I am maule now with 8 ps and 102 wpf  and sometimes i glance on huscral or bordshield(low lvl)
My +3malet isn't op
Mauler class is  easy on good maps but i see some shity idea to remove all places where you can hide from cav  or archers



Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Akynos on May 21, 2012, 05:16:38 pm

Erm, you got that backbards....

Maybe it was badly expressed, I meant that maulers are not meant to be able to spam someone with crushthrough, but also that the speed at which the maul falls ( both because of the force applied by the user and the gravity force) should be higher. This balances both maulers and others, because it gets rid of senseless spam for both maulers and 2h/polearm ( maybe not 1h). See what I mean? :)

Great Maul and Mallet.

How many dedicated users can you find? Remember Burrick for being one of the few....and he knew his shit.

Regular players by far get the highest boost by Awlpike + Long Spear. Attack out of the second row, polestagger kill mob everybody.

Now see the difference...imo a Great Maul is great, after you surpassed and mastered three things (that dont affect Long Spears or other classes with range that much):

- You real carefully maneuveur, avoiding crowds with long weapons
- You by that need to surpass your awful range
- You carefully time your attacks

Again, ppl. underestimate that gmaul takes good thinking to be effective.

20% of the maps are gmaul land, sure. The rest is a cav infested, longspear mob land, being the worst enviroment for mauls.

Like Paul said, using your range or speed is key. Using your positioning is the entry point.

One thing is certain...it always was and will be....-buff the awareness of ppl. and great mauls have no chance to dance-

Keep em the way they are.
Also agree with tyr and tot.
But these are all suggestions of players that have proven to have skill in battle ;-)



Like almost everyone on this topic, vMega, you are not talking about the same scenario as I am. I fully understand how totally possible it is to avoid Maulers. I do it regulary when I face one. I am not here to ask for a general nerf of the mauls. I mean that if you are a str-build and you get hit ONCE, you're toast, because the mauler can easely spam you with overhead crushthroughs. That is the issue. Now, to compensate for this loss in order to keep maulers a competitive class, I suggest increasing the speed rating of the weapons, so that they ALSO can hardly be spammed. My explanations for this are in my previous posts. This allows a more intelligent gameplay rather than spam-crushthrough or spam-hiltslash. THIS HELPS BOTH SIDES.

I've never had a problem with mauls myself, but I don't like seeing bad players being extremely effective by making a strength build with maul and plate.

...which is why I made my suggestion :)





It seems that despite saying it...what...five times, people still think I am claiming that Great Maul is OP and should be nerfed. Sad to see that this community's mind is as tight  as a chicken's butthole. For those who understood my idea and replied, would it be supportive or not, thank you for your opinions. I shall now quit this conversation and leave you guys on what seems to be now a 'don't nerf Maul, just learn 2 play' topic.Have fun.
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on May 21, 2012, 06:21:29 pm
I never could outspam a great maul. And if you Nerf it they'll just switch to the beer keg on a stick. Allow players to chamber the overheads at least. Having 0 options to defend against the maul kind of rediculous. And don't say manuever cause maulers can spin in circles with that overhead and connect anywhere during the swing.  I've gotten hit on the toe and killed by that several times.
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: tankmen on May 22, 2012, 12:44:18 am
fought a guy last night round 3ish, he was pure str, I MEAN PURE STR, ive got 6 IF 20 str(lvl 29) he 1-2 shot me in mail, i bring a maul and he dies... COUNTERED... O WAIT!!! it took 6-7 hits n a few times he lived long enough to 1 shot me. other wise he was near unstoppable 1v1.... just like a maul right?
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Tyr_ on May 22, 2012, 12:48:01 am

PS.
The stab part is obviously true, but are you sure about the overhead? I don't think there's enough stun from it to give time for mauls main attack in before the swing follow-up connects.

Works 90% of the time for me when i fight with a Great Maul. Although its not really usable gains agi-builds with 24 or more points in it or Katanas. BUt im not sure if they just lack timing their, im using the maul rarely nowadays
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Jarlek on May 22, 2012, 01:41:22 am
This was fun to read :D
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Elmetiacos on May 22, 2012, 12:39:05 pm
What the OP suggests would seem to need a completely new animation to be created for the GM. A new animation for just one weapon is unlikely.
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Ronin on May 22, 2012, 11:47:34 pm
From what I've seen, the first post is very well made. The idea itself both brings good sense to the realism and game balance. It is not a whining thread. It is not a nerf or buff thread, just offering reasonable changes.

Yet many people still dislike it, and make comments like "L2P". It's not even sad to me after this moment. I can't even feel sorry about you, community.
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: _Tak_ on May 22, 2012, 11:53:14 pm
this community is full of whiners and full of people who want to nerf other classes to gain advantage to their class
Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Ronin on May 23, 2012, 12:06:24 am
Which is what causes all the rage. Classes are distant and very based on certain conditions. A two hander dies by missile-->nerf ranged. Shielder gets beaten in melee ---> nerf twohanded. Archer gets stabbed back by heavy cav ---> nerf cav. Something unlike other mods. Since you can change tactics if needed.

One example is picking the infantry class in native and carrying a twohander, one hander and a shield. If you see an archer about to shoot you, pull of your shield and one hand. If you see no archers around, pull of your great axe and gain the upper hand in melee. When the enemy infantry (shielder) gets beaten by your two handed axe, it means he should've had a twohander as well or play accordingly with his shield+onehanded. There's not many rage going around here, that if you get beaten it is purely your fault. Something unlike we have in crpg. Not saying it is possible to make it balanced, since the idea of levelling up and stuff is built on creating unfair adventages. Not to mention, the differences among classes. I don't really know what should be done, but it certainly needs a change.
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Title: Re: Rebalancing the Great Maul's stats
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on May 23, 2012, 06:44:23 pm
Wait.....what's the counter to great maul? Spam? From what I have read that isn't the best since mails and 2h alike can hilt slash and turn at very hard angles between swings with no glance.