cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Adamar on May 10, 2012, 01:36:29 am

Title: Limited skills
Post by: Adamar on May 10, 2012, 01:36:29 am
I was thinking that setting limits to how many points you can put into each skill could help solve a lot of ballance issues. At first yeah, you'd lose some degree of personalization, but people often complain about certain buids beeing too overpowered or underpowered. So maybe those builds could be snuffed out simply by setting each skill with a limited number of points, this way we'd no longer have to deal with srt crutchers, agi whores,...
This way, ballancing classes would perhaps cease to be so one sided to the point of nerfing, and people who often complain about not being able to deal with a certain situation will be driven into a more stable build and perhaps QQ less on the forums(This goes for all classes).

I may not see all the ends of this, so post away.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Joker86 on May 10, 2012, 01:50:43 am
I would like to know which limitations you are thinking of in particular. Because I don't neither see a problem with builds themselves (except of the slight advantage STR builds have over AGI builds at the moment) nor how limitations would help anything.

I am always for as much personal freedom as possible, so I say rather no/pointless.  :?
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Kafein on May 10, 2012, 01:58:31 am
PS,IF,ATH,shield and riding tend to become too good over 8 because you can take the full advantage of your unbalanced build without suffering from the tradeoff too much if you play smart.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Adamar on May 10, 2012, 02:06:20 am
Yeah, I was thinking of forcefields too.
I dunno about specific numbers for limitations, the devs would be the ones making the ballance.

Another example may be foot archers with 1 slot bows. They need only 150 wp or so, so they can increasy their pd over the top and sudenly deal way more damage than they should.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Joker86 on May 10, 2012, 02:11:29 am
Yeah, I was thinking of forcefields too.
I dunno about specific numbers for limitations, the devs would be the ones making the ballance.

But you can give rough examples, so that I can get at least some kind of idea what you mean.

Something like "You can't raise one attribute (AGI or STR) more than 6 points over another" or "Limit shield skill to 5" or something like that  :?
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Adamar on May 10, 2012, 02:19:14 am
But you can give rough examples, so that I can get at least some kind of idea what you mean.

Something like "You can't raise one attribute (AGI or STR) more than 6 points over another" or "Limit shield skill to 5" or something like that  :?

Somewhere between 8 and 10 maybe less, depending on the skill.

Like no more than 7 or 8 for ps, 8 for pd, 9 or 10 tops for wm to cup spammers short...

But like I said, I'm not omniscient about the game engine, haven't even played much of cav, so my opinions can't be taken to heart.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Ptolemy on May 10, 2012, 03:22:36 am
A limit of 10 seems logical since you can still get some extreme builds but it would, for example, fix the problem of 13 shield skill turtles. Setting it at 10 would leave enough skills to have a very diverse character base while removing the very top ends of both spectrums.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: MrShine on May 10, 2012, 04:03:20 am
I agree, I think a limit of 13 seems fair.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: zagibu on May 10, 2012, 08:47:23 am
Yeah, let's reduce diversity, so we can have more members in the Kuyak clone army.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Rainbow on May 10, 2012, 09:21:47 am
people always say (insert something cheap) is OP usually because they die to it.  Str builds die to AGI builds and vise versa.  Horses kill a lot of people and also die a lot.  Archers are stupid OP but there K/D ratio isn't usually that great.  Throwers are annoying but they definently have a bad KD ration *usually*. 

The only thing that needs a nerd is engineers.  They are stupid OP and i'm sure we can all agree on that.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Ronin on May 10, 2012, 09:25:39 am
The only thing that needs a nerd is engineers.  They are stupid OP and i'm sure we can all agree on that.
I think you mean "nerf" not "nerd" :D

By the way, after the latest patch there are no engineering in the game but strategus if I am not mistaken.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Bobthehero on May 10, 2012, 09:28:09 am
Right now the limit is 15, I think its good enough.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Gatsby on May 10, 2012, 10:57:51 am
sure a good idea, if u can be fast as flash or strong as hulk, it should be possible also to fly like superman!
Also unbreakable shields are wierd..
Imo 9 it's enough for many skill.
It's also funny to see or try some extreme build, but i like a realistic game more, so i would vote for a limit.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Vibe on May 10, 2012, 11:04:57 am
Extreme builds always have a disadvantage, the more extreme the build is the more extreme the disadvantage will be. I don't see anything wrong with it.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on May 10, 2012, 11:05:45 am
I vote no. Extreme builds aren't particurarly effective, the only problem I have is the invulnerable shield at 13 skill, so limiting it to 12 would be alright. Other than that, I don't see the point.  And I'm not a 30 agi ninja lobbyer. I have 24 agility.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Kafein on May 10, 2012, 11:40:39 am
And I'm not a 30 agi ninja lobbyer. I have 24 agility.

Quote of the day.


Extreme builds always have a disadvantage, the more extreme the build is the more extreme the disadvantage will be. I don't see anything wrong with it.

You do suffer from the disadvantages of an unbalanced build if you play it the same way you would play a balanced one. But if you strategically avoid throwing yourself into already lost combats as a str char (so you never have to retreat) or cherry pick your fights carefully as an agi char, you can mitigate the disadvantages because they won't show up.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: sF_Guardian on May 10, 2012, 12:03:07 pm
Voted for pointless since "Fuck you" is not listed as option.

I use my 9 ps char and am happy with it but I have to deal with that at
27/15 i have no WM and just 3IF.
Its a lot of fun but I get better k/d with a 21/18 build.
Just a fuckin useless suggestion.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on May 10, 2012, 12:05:27 pm
I was thinking that setting limits to how many points you can put into each skill could help solve a lot of ballance issues. At first yeah, you'd lose some degree of personalization, but people often complain about certain buids beeing too overpowered or underpowered. So maybe those builds could be snuffed out simply by setting each skill with a limited number of points, this way we'd no longer have to deal with srt crutchers, agi whores,...
This way, ballancing classes would perhaps cease to be so one sided to the point of nerfing, and people who often complain about not being able to deal with a certain situation will be driven into a more stable build and perhaps QQ less on the forums(This goes for all classes).

I may not see all the ends of this, so post away.
there, you said it yourself. People complain. Just don't listen, problem solved.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Kajia on May 10, 2012, 02:02:31 pm
with respect, i think the problem are not the skills, but the weapon proficiencies.

i would limit wpf in any proficiency to maximum 130 or even 100 or less.
that would reduce spamming with 1-handed, 2-handed and polearms and would cure the archery sniping a whole lot.
i wouldn't have a problem with too high skills then, because even 13-shield character would not be able too exploit his shield as well as now
(he can't hit as fast => his wings can be chambered => he faces a higher thread by incoming swings => he will put less in shield and more in if, for example)

i can't stress enough how i see that ridiculous weapon speed is encouraging exploit and hence is the main cause of people not thinking about how to play fair/ as a team/ less stupid (like kill-hungry teamkilling)/ and so on.
if the game allows us to outspam anybody without any personal skill involved, then we do it! i would like a better basis for everyone to have more equal chances.
this wpf cap would seriously reduce the ridiculousness of the speed gap, but you would still have the advantage of heirloomed weapons, which is what we want, as i see it.

i have fought with 1 wpf in duels and playing with less wpf feels way more natural and challenging, i can imagine that most people would like it and adapt to it.
and in battle and siege my current 70 1-handed wpf are more than enough. i care more about every swing, i watch out for my teammates and i care more about how i hit (i tend to aim for the head or legs, i watch my footwork, i stab, i use my surroundings). i have never really cared about that before!

so, if you can't spam, you will advance in skill - you will try to overcome your disadvantages in other ways. your personal skill will evolve.

please think about it.


tl:dr:
cap wpfs at <130 for more smartness as opposed to skill-less spamming, make the game challenging in other ways than possible exploiting or raging against exploiters
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Xant on May 10, 2012, 02:16:13 pm
I don't think WPF matters currently. Tor with his 180 wpf can't spam me any better than someone with 100 wpf. It's a very minimal increase in swing speed. Spam doesn't really exist in the game, unless weapon stun counts and that doesn't happen too often.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Son Of Odin on May 10, 2012, 02:32:20 pm
Nah... You can't actually outspam anyone anymore... That's just my opinion though. If someone backpeddles and just spams, then just don't follow him. Then he has to figure out some other ways and tries to spam more but cant just do it with "w" key because assumably you are the more skilled one and able to overcome his stupid no-skill spam. WPF doesn't affect too much in the whole spamming issue nowadays. It's mostly weapon speed itself. Not to mention athletics.

The problem isn't even the spam. There is non skill spam, and then there is skilled "spam". If you get owned by non skill spam spam spam, it's completely your own fault. Skilled spam with hiltslashes and stuff similiar... I completely accept those tricks and it is a big reason why I still find this game interesting. Yeah... it's still probably your own fault because you were worse player than the other and should die in that situation anyhow.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Leshma on May 10, 2012, 02:33:41 pm
Spam has very little to do with wpf, especially if you're using slower weapons.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Miwiw on May 10, 2012, 02:41:52 pm
Also unbreakable shields are wierd..
Imo 9 it's enough for many skill.
It's also funny to see or try some extreme build, but i like a realistic game more, so i would vote for a limit.

I don't think that 9 should be the cap, however I agree that unbreakable shields are kinda stupid. Not that I hate or dislike shielders or their art of fighting (I actually love shielder, was also shielder myself for ages, included more than 1 1/2 years in native), but a shield should break sooner or later. That is actually called realism, and also game balance.

In the end I voted for no though because I believe if someone chooses to put all points in one skill, he should do it. He will have pros and cons for his build and will either have high health, armor and damage or more speed and shield breaks less.
Though I of course admit that 10 Power Strike is as crazy as 10 Athletics, 10 Riding or 10 Shield skill.

I use balanced builds myself, which means I actually never go under 15 Agility or Strength.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on May 10, 2012, 02:46:01 pm
I don't think WPF matters currently. Tor with his 180 wpf can't spam me any better than someone with 100 wpf. It's a very minimal increase in swing speed. Spam doesn't really exist in the game, unless weapon stun counts and that doesn't happen too often.
I can't spam Dezilagel with his poleaxe and I have 174 wpf. Speed makes it harder to block, and therefore attack back, yes, but not impossible. And my fullstrength guy(36str/3agi) doesn't get spammed either. Speed helps when fighting multiple enemies, though.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Xant on May 10, 2012, 04:18:02 pm
I can't spam Dezilagel with his poleaxe and I have 174 wpf. Speed makes it harder to block, and therefore attack back, yes, but not impossible. And my fullstrength guy(36str/3agi) doesn't get spammed either. Speed helps when fighting multiple enemies, though.
Speed makes it harder to block?
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Kayle on May 10, 2012, 04:26:31 pm
why dont we all just play with the same build, same weapons etc etc...? -.-----------
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Adamar on May 10, 2012, 04:53:53 pm
Most build would still be available. What Im suggesting here would simply weed out the more unballanced ones. But I conclude with this thread that the community likes them.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Kajia on May 10, 2012, 06:14:16 pm
I don't think WPF matters currently. Tor with his 180 wpf can't spam me any better than someone with 100 wpf. It's a very minimal increase in swing speed. Spam doesn't really exist in the game, unless weapon stun counts and that doesn't happen too often.

dude, being a better player doesn't make you right. seriously, think about it, watch other players.
i'd say it's not only your blocking that saves you, more like your experience and overall wits i reckon.

and it's funny how your statements always sound so 100% sure, you just state something without any reason or back-up, and then you trust that people don't get what kind of fallacy it is. congrats to that rhetoric, but it doesn't work on me.
you haven't even answered to what i said later in my comment regarding enhancing your personal skill. not that i'd expect that of you, that's for sure.

there are some more people playing this game, i think most of them become very frustrated whenever you can't possibly block an insta-hitting chunk of metal on a stick that behaves like nothing even remotely axe or sword-like. (not even talking about me as a victim here, i don't play that often anymore, or at least i try to, because i see what the problems are and i can't just accept them)

has anybody ever seen how fast Tors swings are? now compare to something 1-handed! (and he's using a great long axe) i mean seriously wtf? and now consider glaive and poleaxes, gs, danish and german gs, etc.
how can it be that weapons that long are faster than a 1-hander? oh yeah, i thought about it!
it is because of a mixture of turning into hits, footwork, weapon proficiency, weapon speed and radial velocity which gets faster the longer the weapon. and yes, the latter is the biggest problem.

but to really cure this problem reducing wpf would be one approach, not the best but a good compromise between axe-waggling and kinda block-able weapon-behavior.

WPF doesn't affect too much in the whole spamming issue nowadays. It's mostly weapon speed itself. Not to mention athletics.

okay, certainly, spamming is not the only issue and was only one example. then if that's the case, then why is reducing weapon speed on all long weapons still not considered?
this weapon speed with long weapons is one of the most annoying (fixable) thing in this game!


and i want to mention something else because i consider it important:
knowing your own build is good, but being an experienced player is more than that.
so what i'm saying is that when you really need 180 wpf to beat me i don't necessarily think of you as a good player.
relying on fast weapon builds is not more than a crutch for mediocre gamers.

Tor would be a good player in this sense, but he is still breaking any law of physics because he can, hence staying behind his capabilities.
(i mean you are a master if you can do your work with every tool, otherwise you're not.)
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: kinngrimm on May 10, 2012, 07:04:23 pm
I vote no. Extreme builds aren't particurarly effective, the only problem I have is the invulnerable shield at 13 skill, so limiting it to 12 would be alright. Other than that, I don't see the point.  And I'm not a 30 agi ninja lobbyer. I have 24 agility.
depending on my opponent, he takes minimum 3-4 hits to break my shield under best circumstances. Like 3x loomed great axe, movement bonus, holding attack, sweet spot hits and his str. That combined with some players exeptional blocking skills ... is a sure death sentence.
My shield skill is 10 and 3x loomed elite cav.

The invulnurable shield is at 15, not 13 which would be like minimum 10-12 hits to break it with circumstances descriped above.
Those with really invulnurable shields with shield skill 15, are i guess STF characters, with lvl 30(31?) so when you put 30 agi and 15 shield skill together as vibe mentioned they have some big drawbacks.

What again is your problem with a hard to destroy shield? Not like you Kohrin cant down most of the players without a hustle anyways ... and having a shield which would be indistructable wouldn't safe one if he also wants to attack and not only delay which makes him in my eyes a target for kick or ban.


EDIT: what Kajia said

I don't think that 9 should be the cap, however I agree that unbreakable shields are kinda stupid. Not that I hate or dislike shielders or their art of fighting (I actually love shielder, was also shielder myself for ages, included more than 1 1/2 years in native), but a shield should break sooner or later. That is actually called realism, and also game balance.

...
weapons should break "That is actually called realism, and also game balance. "
playability beats realism, why would i take a shield if it breaks with every second strike it takes.
And you can't tell me that every shield just broke with first strike in a battle, why would a general outfit his troops anyways with them if they are crap.
The legions of rome, did they all need a new set of shields after a battle?
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: _Tak_ on May 10, 2012, 07:06:42 pm
The invulnurable shield is at 15, not 13 which would be like minimum 10-12 hits to break it with circumstances descriped above.


Kinngrimm you got it wrong, 13 shield skill is actually unbreakable, try it on STF you will see.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Miwiw on May 10, 2012, 07:20:46 pm
weapons should break "That is actually called realism, and also game balance. "
playability beats realism, why would i take a shield if it breaks with every second strike it takes.
And you can't tell me that every shield just broke with first strike in a battle, why would a general outfit his troops anyways with them if they are crap.
The legions of rome, did they all need a new set of shields after a battle?

I didn't say a shield should break after 1 hit. That would be stupid, wouldn't it? :P
But a shield breaks after a certain amount of hits. That decision isn't up to me.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: kinngrimm on May 10, 2012, 08:05:09 pm
I didn't say a shield should break after 1 hit. That would be stupid, wouldn't it? :P
But a shield breaks after a certain amount of hits. That decision isn't up to me.
So after how many hits should a shield break? 2,3, 10, 20 more? Only depending on the weapon perhaps which tries to penetrate it? Like only an axe would really make damage to it? What about all the weapons who have wooden shafts and are been used to block and never get a scratch?
What about weapons who have iron/steel shaft and are been used to block mauls or great mauls, shouldn't they at least deform?

I am a shielder because i liked the imagination of it, i am dedicated to that class, still i have tried out others. Why would you want to force a player into a style he doesn't like? Blocking manualy is a different kind of playstyle which i don't enjoy and don't want to be forced into. Shields have been nerfed since i am in this game mod and from what i see, people who start as shielder rarely stick with that class or leave the mod in the end(That i know as a clan leader). Guess why ...

Now there are a few shielders who are str based who regularly get top scores but i rarely see agi based shielders in top score, well there is Leo King on EU servers but thats about it.

I do see some shielders who are sticking with their teammates and trying to protect them, which is admirable, they normally end up either getting ganked at end of round oneshoted after their shield breaks after 2-3 hits of an axe, how fun is that for them. Going agi and high shield skill is for me about being able to hold against the odds, keeping some people away from backstabbing my folks through the flancs, holding them of, i dont need to survive all teh time but it helps to have them occupied for some more seconds either to get reinforced or that our main force is able to finish off their main force where several peopel are misssing who maybe trying to down me  :mrgreen:

Point is, reducing shields even more then they have been by balancing efforts to single shields, not only takes away personal choice and fun but also tactical choices.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Adamar on May 10, 2012, 08:10:15 pm
With limited skills all around, you'd have limited shield skill, but your opponent wouldn't be able to break stuff up easely and 1 hit kill you.
Just saying...
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: kinngrimm on May 10, 2012, 08:23:53 pm
With limited skills all around, you'd have limited shield skill, but your opponent wouldn't be able to break stuff up easely and 1 hit kill you.
Just saying...
You do have limited skills already and i accept that there are str builds who onehit me, that there are balanced builds who are incredibly fast swinging/moving with their mauls and monsters who are awsome on horseback as on feet or tor blockbots with lighting speed attacks where you move wrong a bit you got hit anyways. These aren't the rule these are the expections i except that .. it brings color, flavours into the game.

We all are limited with our main char by the level cap. 36 over a very loooooooooooooooooooooooong time.


And btw in my opinion i told that before we shouldn't have allts and STF chars at all, but invest our time into a single char which would be able to respec at any time, having the need to accumulate more loomed items for several classes and dragging out the urge to go for max level. Having the opportunity to fill in roles for a strat battle in an blink of an eye .. "we need 3 more archers .. ok wait i load my saved char build ... done", but then this would be kRPG and not cRPG wouldn't it ;) whereby chadz whants us to live with the dessions we made, which i accepted by only keep on playing this mod.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Leshma on May 10, 2012, 08:32:27 pm
The invulnurable shield is at 15, not 13 which would be like minimum 10-12 hits to break it with circumstances descriped above.
Those with really invulnurable shields with shield skill 15, are i guess STF characters, with lvl 30(31?) so when you put 30 agi and 15 shield skill together as vibe mentioned they have some big drawbacks.

13 x 8% damage reduction = 104% damage reduction = invunerable = healing shield
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Xant on May 10, 2012, 09:03:15 pm
dude, being a better player doesn't make you right. seriously, think about it, watch other players.
i'd say it's not only your blocking that saves you, more like your experience and overall wits i reckon.

and it's funny how your statements always sound so 100% sure, you just state something without any reason or back-up, and then you trust that people don't get what kind of fallacy it is. congrats to that rhetoric, but it doesn't work on me.
you haven't even answered to what i said later in my comment regarding enhancing your personal skill. not that i'd expect that of you, that's for sure.

there are some more people playing this game, i think most of them become very frustrated whenever you can't possibly block an insta-hitting chunk of metal on a stick that behaves like nothing even remotely axe or sword-like. (not even talking about me as a victim here, i don't play that often anymore, or at least i try to, because i see what the problems are and i can't just accept them)

has anybody ever seen how fast Tors swings are? now compare to something 1-handed! (and he's using a great long axe) i mean seriously wtf? and now consider glaive and poleaxes, gs, danish and german gs, etc.
how can it be that weapons that long are faster than a 1-hander? oh yeah, i thought about it!
it is because of a mixture of turning into hits, footwork, weapon proficiency, weapon speed and radial velocity which gets faster the longer the weapon. and yes, the latter is the biggest problem.

I don't have to watch other players - if they're getting spammed they're failing at footwork or not turning into their swings. You cannot be spammed if you play well. It's impossible. Hiltslash can be confused as spam, though, so if you mean that, OK. 1h can't hiltslash, but 1h can do something similar with double left swing. Only works against improper footwork, though (like hiltslashing).

My statements sound 100% sure because I don't claim something unless I'm 100% sure. I didn't answer your statement about personal skill because it's based on the false premise that spamming exists (and in a way it does - but it's countered by attack-block-attack-block rhytm - and the other guy gets hit for sure - i.e noobspam - ask Templar_alpha for lessons on that).

M&B has a pretty high skill ceiling. But there are lots of people now that can block forever in cRPG. Blocking and attacking properly is a very common skill nowadays. Dumb down the mechanics more and the combat loses all depth.

I've seen how fast Tor's swings are and I've had no problem matching them with 125 wpf and a 1hander. It's not true that 2h/polearms are faster than 1h. You can turn into hits and use footwork to make 1h swings connect faster as well.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Leshma on May 10, 2012, 10:06:08 pm
You're facing a spammer. Block couple of his hits, make sure you're holding your attack and release it when you catch his spamming pattern. Successfully chamber his attack and aim for head. Most of them will back off and start to backpedal.

I'm doing this all the time and it works. If you have good reflexes and fast and proper connection try to hit him first. Problem solved.

Just don't hit body with ordinary attacks, you're barely gonna hurt the spammer and he'll keep spamming (and he might chamber you, lucky chambers happen all the time). Hit him really hard and he'll stop. People start to panic when they lose 60-80% HP in a single blow.

Cicero's attacking pattern works really well. Overhead feints but held overhead feints. Make sure enemy doesn't catch you when you're preparing your chamber. Spice it up with lolspin lolstabs and you're gonna be feared, very few will have the guts to fight you one on one.

Never panic, never lose control. Greed and panicking are the main reasons why decent players die in melee.

Tor is annoying, just like Chase. Excellent blocker, great footwork, a lot of armor/hp. And they keep attacking, never stop. You'll have to be very patient and play a bit dirty to beat players of that caliber.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Miwiw on May 10, 2012, 10:10:09 pm
So after how many hits should a shield break? 2,3, 10, 20 more? Only depending on the weapon perhaps which tries to penetrate it? Like only an axe would really make damage to it? What about all the weapons who have wooden shafts and are been used to block and never get a scratch?
What about weapons who have iron/steel shaft and are been used to block mauls or great mauls, shouldn't they at least deform?

Not sure what you are up to. Looks like you are answering to someone else post'. I never said anything about a weapon type. I only said that a shield should not be unbreakable. Dont take comments I didn't make.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: kinngrimm on May 11, 2012, 12:49:34 am
Not sure what you are up to. Looks like you are answering to someone else post'. I never said anything about a weapon type. I only said that a shield should not be unbreakable. Dont take comments I didn't make.
look at my post again, i was asking questions not telling what you said. Still your suggestions would imply as a result that certain skills should be more limited as they are atm and some certain skills should be nerved more then otheres . A player who goes max level wouldn't normaly aim for these maxed out skill level of >=12 with his main character. The main characters when you look at them are mostly balanced when they are finished with generations with a small edge to str or agi., So the problem isn't that but STF and perhaps even alts or generational mains who are still testing out stuff which then but will be history again after reaching the next generation.

What i am upto ... sounds like me is a devious plotter ... not strat discussion here ^^, so what i am ... up to is trying to get your attention to the different types of characters(main/generational, main/max lvl, alt/generational alt/maxlvl, STF) and their type of impact they have on the game-play.
As it is obvious at least to me that people who try out things, try out the limits and when they are done trying out they have found the way they wanna go ... which i guess isn't normaly the unbreakable shield when you go for max lvl as then you are missing out on a lot of other things.

And my comments onto the weapon type are as everything here not only for you to read, but an idear which came to mind when i look at f.e. "shieldbreaker" a weapon attribute espicially against one type of gear. Perhaps we need "weapon breaker" or forget about both.
I would like to see a test for a couple of months where shields couldn't be broken at all. Would then anywhere shielders are popping up or just keep on going as they now see more reason to it? Would the world end to spin? So many questions so few answers ...
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Son Of Odin on May 11, 2012, 03:28:05 am
I agree with Xant and Leshma 100%. Especially these parts:
You cannot be spammed if you play well. It's impossible.

M&B has a pretty high skill ceiling. But there are lots of people now that can block forever in cRPG. Blocking and attacking properly is a very common skill nowadays. Dumb down the mechanics more and the combat loses all depth.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Vibe on May 11, 2012, 12:38:55 pm
How is anyone bothered by 13 shield skill players? They're harmless and contribute little to their team. They also die in like one hit.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Son Of Odin on May 11, 2012, 12:40:37 pm
How is anyone bothered by 13 shield skill players? They're harmless and contribute little to their team. They also die in like one hit.
Bump them once and they are almost dead :D.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Kajia on May 11, 2012, 02:09:34 pm
I don't have to watch other players - if they're getting spammed they're failing at footwork or not turning into their swings. You cannot be spammed if you play well. It's impossible. Hiltslash can be confused as spam, though, so if you mean that, OK. 1h can't hiltslash, but 1h can do something similar with double left swing. Only works against improper footwork, though (like hiltslashing).

My statements sound 100% sure because I don't claim something unless I'm 100% sure. I didn't answer your statement about personal skill because it's based on the false premise that spamming exists (and in a way it does - but it's countered by attack-block-attack-block rhytm - and the other guy gets hit for sure - i.e noobspam - ask Templar_alpha for lessons on that).

M&B has a pretty high skill ceiling. But there are lots of people now that can block forever in cRPG. Blocking and attacking properly is a very common skill nowadays. Dumb down the mechanics more and the combat loses all depth.

yes, spamming only works against noob players, but i already said it's just an example, you seem to cling to single words here.

[off topic] i don't want to repeat everything, because i don't see the point in stressing out something if no one is interested in changing their own mind or at least trying to understand.
i mean how can you be 100% sure at all? that's impossible, someone who believes something like that would have a hard time to learn and is ultimately in many cases wrong.
just saying. [on topic]

so my point wasn't about whether you can spam or not, but how unbelievably fast long weapons are compared to shorter ones.
they mostly do more damage and as they are calculated similarly they have the huge bonus of radial velocity when you turn into your hit because they are longer. this is just not taken into account by the devs, and seemingly it's only the case in cRPG, in Native you have a delay on turning your character ... for a reason.
but simply slowing wpf or weapon speed down could also fix it.

yeah, whatever, like i said i'm not feeling as a victim, i mean i do constantly fall for long axes and op glaives even though i can block if i must, but at least i know it's a broken game.
if it's fucked up i'll just play it less, easy solution. but i would like to have a good game, this one always had the potential for it has a big player base.
i guess depth would increase if you couldn't rely on speed so much. teamwork would increase. (there is more to depth than just having duels you know, and even duels would be more fun imo)


I've seen how fast Tor's swings are and I've had no problem matching them with 125 wpf and a 1hander. It's not true that 2h/polearms are faster than 1h. You can turn into hits and use footwork to make 1h swings connect faster as well.

that's nice! one has to be good at something.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Xant on May 11, 2012, 02:19:51 pm
I thought your whole post was about spamming? You used that word like five times in your post, almost every paragraph.

Even your tl;dr is this:
"tl:dr:
cap wpfs at <130 for more smartness as opposed to skill-less spamming"

Now it's just an example? How would changing WPF limits adjust the speed differences between shorter and longer weapons? If you make both 130 max wfp, then you still have the same problem.

Hypothetical problem, of course. I've seen no proof anywhere, in-game or out the game, that shorter weapons are slower.

In Native you have a delay on turning your character but not in cRPG? Elaborate on that? I wasn't aware Native had any more delays than cRPG.

Quote
that's nice! one has to be good at something.
Thanks, but being good is my curse. I'm good at everything I do.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Kajia on May 11, 2012, 04:08:32 pm
try it out, load native sp and play. your character will have a delay on turning. your character will also stand without turning when you don't raise a weapon for a swing.

spamming is the most obvious issue that comes with high speed weapons. that's why i used it to explain my point.

How would changing WPF limits adjust the speed differences between shorter and longer weapons? If you make both 130 max wfp, then you still have the same problem.

good point.
so you'd say that to fix this problem we would instead have to reduce weapon speed of weapons with shafts (swung long polearms) and weapons speed on long 2-handed weps?

i don't have to necessarily disagree with you, it isn't productive anyway.
Title: Re: Limited skills
Post by: Leshma on May 11, 2012, 06:11:51 pm
How is anyone bothered by 13 shield skill players? They're harmless and contribute little to their team. They also die in like one hit.

One on one they aren't much of a problem, you can just as well ignore them.

However, people value k/d the most and everyone wants to get a kill, no matter how cheap it is. That leads to zombie like behavior where 10 people gank one harmless dude which means that somewhere else on the battlefield their teammates are heavily outnumbered.

People who play proper builds usually contribute to their team in a different way (they fight like trained soldiers), while people who play joke builds are also useful but as decoys. That's cool and I like the fact it's possible in cRPG but I look at this as medieval army simulator and would like to see proper battles. The less joke builds and naked trolls running around, the better and more immersive this game will become.