cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Captain_Georges on May 07, 2012, 04:06:23 pm

Title: Armor
Post by: Captain_Georges on May 07, 2012, 04:06:23 pm
Anything above 20 weight is too debilitating for it's price. With the new armor values it's even worse. IMO, some weight should be removed, or price lowered cause the effect I get with the heavy armors has more cons then pros, and it makes me sad. ; ((((

Love
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Teeth on May 07, 2012, 05:03:32 pm
Yeah its not like you can take twenty hits before you go down, oh wait.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on May 07, 2012, 05:10:38 pm
I don't agree with this thread so I'm going to derail it by starting to post pictures about space marines.
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Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Tzar on May 07, 2012, 05:11:19 pm
Heavy armor is total shit that´s correct. I wear mine to look unique while everyone else crutch on light weight loomed super kuyaks and heavy gauntlets to gain the best armor to weight ratio setups.

I hope they wont reason and make plate armor usefull since it would make more people use my setup an ruin my little roleplay lol
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Dezilagel on May 07, 2012, 05:27:41 pm
Tzar, how am I going to put this without offending you too much...?

You get shat on because you're really fucking bad. That's it.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Tzar on May 07, 2012, 05:35:18 pm
Tzar, how am I going to put this without offending you too much...?

You get shat on because you're really fucking bad. That's it.

(click to show/hide)

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Cant be arsed being offended by someone who cries about lagg each time he gets killed i know what type of a guy you are an i feel sry for you  :rolleyes:

On-topic: Leave heavy armor alone dont buff it plz  :)
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Captain_Georges on May 07, 2012, 08:34:42 pm
One thread without flaming, jebus christ..

Yes, I wear Gothic plate cause I really like the way it looks, those who were around here for a while might remember me wearing it pretty much 95% of the time since I started cRPG, and patch by patch they started nerfing armor to the bone. And now, yes, everybody uses some heavily loomed medium armor and calculate weight to speed loss ratios - something with which I am perfectly fine, but IMO the money I waste on repairs for such a debilitating effect just to be able to get one more hit on me (which is pointless cause due to new armor values I bounce around like a ping-pong ball) is too much.

I AM trying to be unbiased here, Khorin, while ofcourse you want armor nerfs you agiwhoring katana spammer : P
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: ThePoopy on May 07, 2012, 09:26:46 pm
buff glancing!!!
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: zagibu on May 07, 2012, 09:27:13 pm
Heavy armor has been shit for a while now. Well, not exactly shit, you can take one or two hits more than in a kuyak, but it's not worth the money or speed reduction.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Ronin on May 07, 2012, 11:50:15 pm
You guys complainin about the armor weight? For the love of azura! A mail hauberk has 10 weight in crpg and 20 weight in native (roughly). They are nearly halved. Not to mention you can just wear those goddamn things right away, without being have to earn some money within a round. Not to mention huge armor values you can get with lordly heavy armor sets.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Bobthehero on May 08, 2012, 12:08:24 am
Its still cripplingly slow to be in plate armor. Mix that with horrible costs and you're left with very little reason to use heavy armor.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: bosco on May 08, 2012, 12:22:22 am
I hear ya Georges.

Often feels like even one Katana hit takes 50% of health in Lordly Gothic + Reinforced Heavy Gauntlets. Or one spear stab - same.

BUT STILL, PLATE REPRESENT. ALL DAY ERRY DAY.

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Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Tzar on May 08, 2012, 12:25:03 am
(click to show/hide)

That armor looks really really heavy  :D
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Teeth on May 08, 2012, 12:27:48 am
I hear ya Georges.

Often feels like even one Katana hit takes 50% of health in Lordly Gothic + Reinforced Heavy Gauntlets. Or one spear stab - same.

BUT STILL, PLATE REPRESENT. ALL DAY ERRY DAY.

(click to show/hide)
That is a boner friendly armor
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: bosco on May 08, 2012, 12:30:40 am
Imagine getting a boner in plate armor when there's no extra space. That'd be painful. So, worthwile investment IMHO.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Bobthehero on May 08, 2012, 12:31:57 am
Pretty bitchin'
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Okkam on May 08, 2012, 12:34:28 am
I AM trying to be unbiased here, Khorin, while ofcourse you want armor nerfs you agiwhoring katana spammer : P

I remember your panzermarine's tanking in «No Looms Times» august - september of 2010, and it looks like now armors is much better and weapons is little worse.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Moncho on May 08, 2012, 12:35:55 am
There is a reason for that. To get a bit (light) is easy, to get average (medium) only slightly harder, to get good stuff (heavy) it starts getting expensive, but to get the very best, to get the very best of everything (plate) is extremely costly. Otherwise everyone would just go with the very top end.
With weapons it is different, since you have damage, reach, speed, etc to consider, however with armor its protection vs weight and cost, so I agree with this being so. You want that extra point, that special look? Pay for it.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on May 08, 2012, 01:00:14 am
I AM trying to be unbiased here, Khorin, while ofcourse you want armor nerfs you agiwhoring katana spammer : P
Ye, gods. My honor is questioned.

I'll have you know I'm practically a strength character, I have 19 strength, so naturally I'm completely unbiased when I say that I want armour to remain as it is. My full strength plate char fully agrees with you, though.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: ArchonAlarion on May 08, 2012, 04:13:45 am
Armor should get more glances, and be extremely expensive. It is something for multi-generations to use. Same with armored horses.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: RandomDude on May 08, 2012, 02:42:46 pm
I think there's about 5 eu players (2 fairly new ones) who wear the gothic plate + use flam most of the time.

These are the only true plate users.

[Long text wall deleted]

U know what, im just gonna say "reduce some of the negatives of gothic" or "give it some more buff".

Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Vibe on May 08, 2012, 02:47:06 pm
Lol, it's not like you still move fast as shit in plate with decent agi, not to mention the wpf reduction you get from it doesn't matter at all.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Tzar on May 08, 2012, 03:33:14 pm
We all know wearing plate armor is godlike an the best armor ever that's why so many players use it.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Cyclopsided on May 08, 2012, 04:12:30 pm
TBH it is balanced for once how it currently is.
Heavy armor isn't OP anymore, and I like using it from time to time nowadays.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Aleskander on May 08, 2012, 04:21:55 pm
I see VERY few people use it on NA.
And frankly, heavy armor sucks
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: RandomDude on May 08, 2012, 05:26:16 pm
Everyone knows how to make enough money to support plate, making upkeep worthless, so why isnt everyone using it if it's so op?

That's my question.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Lichen on May 08, 2012, 06:36:27 pm
Armor should get more glances,
Maybe it's just everybody has high powestrike+ loomed weaps but I can't remember the last time I saw a sword glance off a plate wearer during a regular swing (not super close). The original 'soak/reduce' armor parameters were good before they were changed IMO. Armor doesn't feel like armor in that it 'protects'...just more health points.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Renten on May 08, 2012, 07:27:03 pm
I see VERY few people use it on NA.
And frankly, heavy armor sucks

While the only people I actually see go around in plate is kutt, a huge amount of us are only 2 or 3 body armor away from it before looms. It's really fun once you realize that you can get plates effectiveness for half the cost.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: zagibu on May 08, 2012, 08:51:24 pm
Maybe it's just everybody has high powestrike+ loomed weaps but I can't remember the last time I saw a sword glance off a plate wearer during a regular swing (not super close). The original 'soak/reduce' armor parameters were good before they were changed IMO. Armor doesn't feel like armor in that it 'protects'...just more health points.

My words, man. I see how it can be frustrating for peasants to glance on a knight's breastplate with a knife, but hey, it's called armor for a reason, you know.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: v/onMega on May 09, 2012, 08:34:32 am
Got 68 Body.
grey corrazina + plate mittens on lordly.

Every armor after Sarranid Guard pretty much means 1 weight for 1 armor.

All allright.
Whats not allright is loosing half or more hp to one blow.
Just happened twice yesterday.

The calc is too random on high tier armors, thats whats making em unpredictable (yes, sometimes you take 8 hits, sometimes).

So imo armorcalc could be redone for everything over 20 weight?
Raising the min value by 10 or 20 percent?

Not complaining bout heavy stuff, but it could use a slight buff in calc. and accordingly be higher priced :-)
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Tzar on May 09, 2012, 12:58:24 pm
Leave heavy armor alone no need for buff!!
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: bosco on May 09, 2012, 01:29:12 pm
Leave heavy armor alone no need for buff!!

Ok, which katana spastic or my old friendcher hacked his account?
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Deathwhisper on May 09, 2012, 02:18:47 pm
The real issue is that damage taken, even without taking other factors like speed bonus, (i.e the effect of armor) is way too random with high armor values. Here's a graph as an example :

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 (http://upload.warlegend-project.com/?v=crpgminmax.png)

As you can see, the variance between min and max damage for a 40 damage attack is very high with high armor values. For example, the min cut damage taken with 29 armor is 10. The max cut damage taken with 72 armor is also 10. This means someone with nomad robe & leather gloves might receive as much damage as someone with 72 armor (which requires at least 2 looms to achieve, and that's if you're using milanese plate & heavy gauntlets).
Of course on average plate is much more effective than leather / mail, but because of the random element I find plate a very risky choice. It will ALWAYS slow both your movement speed and your attacks, but it won't always effectively protect you. Sometimes you may survive 8 hits, sometimes 3 will be enough.

The armor damage reduction formula should be reworked, so that damage taken is less random and much more predictible. Currently it's not worth it to get above transitional, because the additional protection isn't worth the additional weight and cost, especially since bad luck sometimes negates the extra armor. Gothic with bevor is probably the only viable 53+ armor once loomed, thanks to the significant increase to head armor.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Tzar on May 09, 2012, 03:49:34 pm
Ok, which katana spastic or friendly archer hacked his account?

No1 i just really prefer Plate armor to remain shit to be able to keep looking unique lol
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Cup1d on May 09, 2012, 03:52:04 pm
Make real tincans slower, but add more chances to soak nonheld strikes if your body armor points is more than 70
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: v/onMega on May 09, 2012, 05:39:15 pm
Make real tincans slower, but add more chances to soak nonheld strikes if your body armor points is more than 70

68 k thx bye
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: B3RS3RK on May 09, 2012, 10:57:02 pm
Plate is like an Iphone.

Cheaper stuff can do pretty much the same, but it makes you feel special.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Bobthehero on May 09, 2012, 11:33:33 pm
Beg to differ, no armor except the Gothic Plate with Bevor can obscure part of your screen in first person.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Cup1d on May 10, 2012, 12:12:54 am
68 k thx bye

What part of «real tincan» you do not understand? You can have 68 body armor with overall weight 19kg. It's not a tincan weight.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Deathwhisper on May 10, 2012, 12:36:17 am
What part of «real tincan» you do not understand? You can have 68 body armor with overall weight 19kg. It's not a tincan weight.

You can have 69 at most without heirlooms. 68 with only 19kg would mean lordly lamellar armor with heavy gauntlets, so that's 6 looms. You can't balance the game around gen 10+ characters only (people usually loom their weapon before armor).

Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Tzar on May 10, 2012, 12:47:36 am
You can have 69 at most without heirlooms. 68 with only 19kg would mean lordly lamellar armor with heavy gauntlets, so that's 6 looms. You can't balance the game around gen 10+ characters only (people usually loom their weapon before armor).

Everyone have loomed armor and gloves and weapons atm
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Moncho on May 10, 2012, 12:50:16 am
Everyone have loomed armor and gloves and weapons atm
I dont
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Tzar on May 10, 2012, 12:57:30 am
Then start to use the retire function like every1 else or did you just start out in cRPG  :?:
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Rebelyell on May 10, 2012, 01:00:37 am
Agree with thread

If its expensive why its shit???
and i had no problems to kill tincans(+3 morningstar)in time when evryone had one
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Moncho on May 10, 2012, 01:01:59 am
Oh i started playing around a year and a couple of months ago, got to gen 7, didnt have a single armor loomed (i had 1h, shield, and arrows).
Then I decided to stop playing so i deleted it. Now im gen 4 and have 4 loompoints, all in weapons for a change. Also, im a ragerespeccer
I had a lordly mail hauberk, but meh, back to hybrid archer so i traded it.
Btw, hope you enjoyed my headshots earlier today, tzarofQQya
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Tzar on May 10, 2012, 01:06:50 am
Thats an interesting story Moncho you should write a book of your adventures looking forward for your next story +1
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: zagibu on May 10, 2012, 08:53:50 am
I would already be content if plate armor was buffed against ranged. It's just silly that an arrow, which would only "plink" on my armor, takes away a third of my health. I don't know if it's possible, but it would be cool if bounce rate of arrows on plate was somehow massively increased. Archers still have many Kuyak clones to shoot, they don't have to aim at robots.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Paul on May 10, 2012, 09:19:34 am
One idea I had about heavy armour was that it allows to partly convert "lethal" damage into "non-lethal" damage. The concept was that this non-lethal damage would be removed over time, significantly increasing the lifetime of a careful and in a group operating tincan. A solo tincan would still go down as quickly as now because he could get knocked out even with non-lethal damage.

Dunno if that is a good idea because it smells a bit like health-regain console shit but just increasing glances is out of the question for me. While some might have embraced the "MW-plate-and-wildly-swing-hoping-the-other-guy-glances" playstyle, I didn't and I like the fact that a well aimed blow even from a mundane 1hander can at least reliably interupt a tinman.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: v/onMega on May 10, 2012, 10:31:03 am
Is it not possible to change random factors (soak etc) on armors from lets say 18/ 19 weight?

Sure, the on going glancing was bad while it lastet. I like your idea Paul, but, as u said...it is somewhat "wrong".
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Vibe on May 10, 2012, 10:36:16 am
Random damage is wrong, fixing that would also buff heavy armor (not that it needs a buff tbh)
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: bosco on May 10, 2012, 10:57:34 am
Not sure about Paul's idea, but I'm already a happy camper knowing that he is aware of the lackings of the current plates.  8-)
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Teeth on May 10, 2012, 05:46:48 pm
One idea I had about heavy armour was that it allows to partly convert "lethal" damage into "non-lethal" damage. The concept was that this non-lethal damage would be removed over time, significantly increasing the lifetime of a careful and in a group operating tincan. A solo tincan would still go down as quickly as now because he could get knocked out even with non-lethal damage.

Dunno if that is a good idea because it smells a bit like health-regain console shit but just increasing glances is out of the question for me. While some might have embraced the "MW-plate-and-wildly-swing-hoping-the-other-guy-glances" playstyle, I didn't and I like the fact that a well aimed blow even from a mundane 1hander can at least reliably interupt a tinman.
Yes no glances please.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: B3RS3RK on May 10, 2012, 07:54:39 pm
I would already be content if plate armor was buffed against ranged. It's just silly that an arrow, which would only "plink" on my armor, takes away a third of my health. I don't know if it's possible, but it would be cool if bounce rate of arrows on plate was somehow massively increased. Archers still have many Kuyak clones to shoot, they don't have to aim at robots.

Yes please.Make it more efficient against arrows and possibly bolts, but leave it like it is otherwise.That is the best Idea so far imo, and it would finally give the plate some more worth for it cost without making it OP.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Lech on May 10, 2012, 09:16:32 pm
One idea I had about heavy armour was that it allows to partly convert "lethal" damage into "non-lethal" damage. The concept was that this non-lethal damage would be removed over time, significantly increasing the lifetime of a careful and in a group operating tincan. A solo tincan would still go down as quickly as now because he could get knocked out even with non-lethal damage.

Dunno if that is a good idea because it smells a bit like health-regain console shit but just increasing glances is out of the question for me. While some might have embraced the "MW-plate-and-wildly-swing-hoping-the-other-guy-glances" playstyle, I didn't and I like the fact that a well aimed blow even from a mundane 1hander can at least reliably interupt a tinman.

Partial regeneration would be awesome. Not just for heavy armor but for everyone.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: kinngrimm on May 10, 2012, 09:36:36 pm
Everyone knows how to make enough money to support plate, making upkeep worthless, so why isnt everyone using it if it's so op?

That's my question.
while over a large amount of time there where perhaps only 1 player per team(if at all) using gothic or other high maintenance armors, nowadays it is on a regular base at least 2-3 i see in every team sometimes upto 7-9 in rare cases even more. In early morning hours it is kind of silly having teams with 10 players and 5 are heavily armored.

I never changed my armor from light Kuyak after the big patch, i didn't do calculations about it just rough estimates, reason i wear it, it looks awesome and comes as close to pelty wolves style ^^ as it gets. Also a lot of the better players kind of switch between a lot of different armors, may it be of being in a loosing team or make the enemy believe they are peasents. That all was for me just too much hustle ... i want to play not to change my wardrobe and look in the mirrow all the time ^^ still sometimes in the early morning hours when there are less "teammates" around able to fuck me up badly *sigh*, i change for oldtimes to my leather jacket  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: v/onMega on May 10, 2012, 10:33:55 pm
heavy armor sucks tbh.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: zagibu on May 10, 2012, 11:32:08 pm
Not sure about Paul's idea, but I'm already a happy camper knowing that he is aware of the lackings of the current plates.  8-)

You do know that he caused them in the first place, right? His armor formula change is also responsible for the massive increase of successful hiltslashes. I know he probably had good intentions, but the outcome is not very good in my opinion. It just shifted the power from tincans, which were at least hard to maintain financially, to the Kuyak clones. Nowadays any Kuyak clone with a greatsword who knows what he's doing can left-right-left-right a tincan giving him no chance to strike back because of hiltslash problem. Poor tincan can't escape either, because armor weight makes him slow. All he can do is block every swing and hope the other dude makes a mistake, or some friendly Kuyak clone comes for his rescue.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Leshma on May 10, 2012, 11:48:55 pm
You do know that he caused them in the first place, right? His armor formula change is also responsible for the massive increase of successful hiltslashes. I know he probably had good intentions, but the outcome is not very good in my opinion. It just shifted the power from tincans, which were at least hard to maintain financially, to the Kuyak clones. Nowadays any Kuyak clone with a greatsword who knows what he's doing can left-right-left-right a tincan giving him no chance to strike back because of hiltslash problem. Poor tincan can't escape either, because armor weight makes him slow. All he can do is block every swing and hope the other dude makes a mistake, or some friendly Kuyak clone comes for his rescue.

Important part.

Hiltslashing is gay, I agree. But it's way better than non skilled idiot wearing plate and spamming his weapon, knowing that some hits will bounce of him.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: zagibu on May 11, 2012, 12:52:30 am
Important part.

Hiltslashing is gay, I agree. But it's way better than non skilled idiot wearing plate and spamming his weapon, knowing that some hits will bounce of him.

You can't simply load the spam problem onto the shoulders of plate armor knights. Spam is possible with all armors. It could also be argued that less glancing means more spam, because you don't have to worry about the other dude having faith in his armor and just swinging for once, instead of blocking your badly aimed swing.

Also, solid hits of decent weapons never glanced with the old formula, only hits of very weak weapons or badly angled hits. I know, some people found it preposterous that a knight in plate armor should be virtually impenetrable for peasant knives, but I never understood the reasoning behind it.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: H3ADSH0T on May 11, 2012, 01:59:12 am
My idea has always been that armour material should make a difference instead of being JUSt and arbitrary number. This means that we'd now have plate, chain, scale, hide, etc as types which would react to pierce, cut, and blunt. Wouldn't it be nice if your plate armor had a realistic use? As a plated knight, unless you can pin me (realistically) to stab me through a joint or land a lucky hit your cutting weapons are going to "glance" right off of me. Mail is even more interesting. Blunt weapons are especially effective because mail doesn't stop the impact. But it -does- stop cutting weapons and depending on the size it is very effective at repelling piercing attacks.

This might not be entirely related but the combat speed of C-RPG is a joke.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: RandomDude on May 11, 2012, 03:07:47 am
while over a large amount of time there where perhaps only 1 player per team(if at all) using gothic or other high maintenance armors, nowadays it is on a regular base at least 2-3 i see in every team sometimes upto 7-9 in rare cases even more. In early morning hours it is kind of silly having teams with 10 players and 5 are heavily armored.

I never changed my armor from light Kuyak after the big patch, i didn't do calculations about it just rough estimates, reason i wear it, it looks awesome and comes as close to pelty wolves style ^^ as it gets. Also a lot of the better players kind of switch between a lot of different armors, may it be of being in a loosing team or make the enemy believe they are peasents. That all was for me just too much hustle ... i want to play not to change my wardrobe and look in the mirrow all the time ^^ still sometimes in the early morning hours when there are less "teammates" around able to fuck me up badly *sigh*, i change for oldtimes to my leather jacket  :mrgreen:

But surely if plate was so OP, out of 120 players you'd see 30-60 using it or somethin?
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Araxiel on May 11, 2012, 05:21:28 am
If i havent got all these crafting skills with plate i would change my armor in to something between medium-heavy.
Also most players learned to face hit. Not much point having a good body armor rating if you get all the hits in the face.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Vibe on May 11, 2012, 09:47:26 am
Nowadays any Kuyak clone with a greatsword who knows what he's doing can left-right-left-right a tincan giving him no chance to strike back because of hiltslash problem. Poor tincan can't escape either, because armor weight makes him slow. All he can do is block every swing and hope the other dude makes a mistake, or some friendly Kuyak clone comes for his rescue.

Any decent tincan can return swings/attacks just fine. Even with high strength builds.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Teeth on May 11, 2012, 03:58:46 pm
because of hiltslash problem.
I can count the amount of times I really got hiltslashed in the past month on one hand and all of those were on the duel server.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Dezilagel on May 11, 2012, 04:50:36 pm
I can count the amount of times I really got hiltslashed in the past month on one hand and all of those were on the duel server.

Yep, a lot of people try and fail though.

It kinda makes me smile when I get properly hiltslashed nowadays, but then I never understood the reason for nerfing it in the first place.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: kinngrimm on May 11, 2012, 05:46:15 pm
@randomdude
i didnt say they are OP atm, still powerfull, but through my observations i come to teh conclusion that there is a trend hat they will be used more often again, the circumstances for that may as you told earlier be dependent on the fact that people figured how to make money more efficently like using cheap stuff over longer time or going for max lvl and no need for buying looms or making generations and selling looms or switching to it when to it when they have winning times or using it on lowely populated servers when it realy makes a difference. However it is done there seems to be enough money for quite a few player to sustain high tier equipment over longer times.


@Paul
i quite like the mechanics of glancing and that certain damage types wouldn't , but perhaps we need another approach to make them work. So how  about the following train of thought.
Faster moving objects are less prone to pressice attacks then slowly moving targets.
A slow moving target can still be hit by a cut weapon as those have more time to focus on the weak spots.

The suggestion would be like, if a tincan with less then 6 athletics would be striked by a cut weapon ... no glancing, with 6 or more ath on the tincan glances are in effect.
If you want to go even further you could make the onto the difference of both players ath involved.

This way players have to consider taking more agi/ath if they want higher glancing effects on them. That shouldn't count for high agi high ath less amored dudes, as they have already the opportunity to outmanouver and get angles where glancing would happen.
People may then have more balanced builds, those who are going for a maxed out build would need to concider this disadvantage and it could be the long wanted slightly indirect buff for agi builds mentioned in so many thread without making them stronger but weakening under certain circumstances str builds while still giving str builds their glancing back.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Captain_Georges on May 25, 2012, 04:40:16 pm
bumped in good faith, we're not done here.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Moncho on May 25, 2012, 04:41:27 pm
please dont tell me this is becoming the new "archery" topic... a link so you can revive that one as well:  :oops: :oops: :oops:
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,26106.0.html (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,26106.0.html)
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: zagibu on May 25, 2012, 11:50:42 pm
The suggestion would be like, if a tincan with less then 6 athletics would be striked by a cut weapon ... no glancing, with 6 or more ath on the tincan glances are in effect.
If you want to go even further you could make the onto the difference of both players ath involved.

This way players have to consider taking more agi/ath if they want higher glancing effects on them. That shouldn't count for high agi high ath less amored dudes, as they have already the opportunity to outmanouver and get angles where glancing would happen.
People may then have more balanced builds, those who are going for a maxed out build would need to concider this disadvantage and it could be the long wanted slightly indirect buff for agi builds mentioned in so many thread without making them stronger but weakening under certain circumstances str builds while still giving str builds their glancing back.

I think it already is kind of like that. The faster you move, the more your enemies will glance on you.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Moncho on May 26, 2012, 12:40:45 am
I think it already is kind of like that. The faster you move, the more your enemies will glance on you.

No, the faster any of the parts moves, the higher the speed bonus and more damage, so less glancing. The glancing comes if you use your footwork and place yourself so they hit you very early in the animation, which due to the sweetspot mechanic makes it glance.
So, if you have an enemy moving left to right in your screen, a left swing will have a very low speed bonus (both targets moving in the same direction, so their relative velocity is low), but a right swing, if it hits fine, it will have a very big speed bonus
A clear example is cav, if you hit them at full speed (and your blade is moving in the opposite direction to their movement), or HAs shooting backward at chasing cav, the damage bonus is huge, thats why sometimes cav get 1hit even in heavyish armor when at full speed
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: zagibu on May 26, 2012, 02:39:42 am
I agree. If you move fast in a duel or in a crowd, though, people will usually be off with their swings and glance on you, due to bad animations. Also, speed bonus works both ways, if you move away from them, their chance for glancing is much higher.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on May 26, 2012, 09:06:56 pm
This isn't heavy armor related but on the subject of glancing, on my lower-armored alts (basically wearing clothing) a twohander Danish gaysword user can still stun me at the exact start of the animation with the tip of his blade while I'm behind him, I'm teamhit a lot like this, and hit by enemies a lot like it too... it'd be nice if retarded swings always glanced regardless of armor and damage, 'cuss this shit is really annoying.

BTW: BUFF PLATE!
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: ThePoopy on May 26, 2012, 09:43:39 pm
This isn't heavy armor related but on the subject of glancing, on my lower-armored alts (basically wearing clothing) a twohander Danish gaysword user can still stun me at the exact start of the animation with the tip of his blade while I'm behind him, I'm teamhit a lot like this, and hit by enemies a lot like it too... it'd be nice if retarded swings always glanced regardless of armor and damage, 'cuss this shit is really annoying.

BTW: BUFF PLATE!
this is what i meant  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Thomek on May 26, 2012, 09:56:02 pm
One idea I had about heavy armour was that it allows to partly convert "lethal" damage into "non-lethal" damage. The concept was that this non-lethal damage would be removed over time, significantly increasing the lifetime of a careful and in a group operating tincan. A solo tincan would still go down as quickly as now because he could get knocked out even with non-lethal damage.

Dunno if that is a good idea because it smells a bit like health-regain console shit but just increasing glances is out of the question for me. While some might have embraced the "MW-plate-and-wildly-swing-hoping-the-other-guy-glances" playstyle, I didn't and I like the fact that a well aimed blow even from a mundane 1hander can at least reliably interupt a tinman.

Agree,  I think the idea is ok.

There is an unbalance in armor price vs actual battlefield worth. Either lower prices in the heavy armors or make them better. This idea is more interesting than just increasing stats.

The Kuyak sweetspot must be eliminated by all means.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: RandomDude on May 26, 2012, 10:50:42 pm
Agree,  I think the idea is ok.

There is an unbalance in armor price vs actual battlefield worth. Either lower prices in the heavy armors or make them better. This idea is more interesting than just increasing stats.

The Kuyak sweetspot must be eliminated by all means.

totally agree
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Ronin on May 26, 2012, 11:58:40 pm
Agree,  I think the idea is ok.

There is an unbalance in armor price vs actual battlefield worth. Either lower prices in the heavy armors or make them better. This idea is more interesting than just increasing stats.

The Kuyak sweetspot must be eliminated by all means.
Nice thought.
But I do have a question. Does people use kuyak because it's good statwise, or because it looks "game of thrones-ish"? I never knew the answer, since I was not a fan of kuyak when I was twohander.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: zagibu on May 27, 2012, 12:19:08 am
I think they use it because it looks cool in their eyes. You can't really change the stats so much that people would stop using them.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Dezilagel on May 27, 2012, 12:57:43 am
It's not really that the kuyak-ish medium armors are some kind of optimal god-teir armors, it's just that they fit in really well with the standard setup when it comes to price:

If you use a top-teir melee wep (Greatsword/Poleaxe/Top 1h+shield), a Kuyak-ish armor, and sensible boots, gloves and headgear you're going to end up with a total cost of about 30k, which is pretty much optimum since it allows you to make a steady amount of cash while using afromented gear (which is good gear).

Heavy armor is really good. I've tried it. It allows you to take a crapload of hits with the right build, but it's oddly weak to ranged thanks to extra_penetration.

But the main gripe with it is that it doesn't really fit cost-wise. If you're going to use heavy armor you're going to have to cut down on something else to make money, and what? Weapon? Noone wants to use a crap weapon, especially not in heavy armor since the style favours long/heavy hitting weps (the expensive ones). Boots/headgear? Will make for an obvious target.

Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Balton on May 27, 2012, 07:26:28 pm
Wearing plate makes you literally invulnerable to players of low level, players of mid level who aren't using blunt/pierce, and all agil-heavy builds. If anything, it needs a nerf.

And pseudo-health-regen is a terrible idea.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Wraist on May 27, 2012, 07:52:46 pm
Wearing plate makes you literally invulnerable to players of low level, players of mid level who aren't using blunt/pierce, and all agil-heavy builds. If anything, it needs a nerf.

And pseudo-health-regen is a terrible idea.

Define agi-heavy and mid level. At level 16 I was able to do fine vs plate wearers.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Thomek on May 27, 2012, 08:02:49 pm
It's not really that the kuyak-ish medium armors are some kind of optimal god-teir armors, it's just that they fit in really well with the standard setup when it comes to price..

I think that makes sense, although it doesn't disprove my point, only gives another reason why people are wearing Kujaks.  As a duel expert :) what would you say would be the optimal armor, when it comes to protection vs weight in a typical minmaxed build?
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Ronin on May 27, 2012, 08:25:42 pm
Wearing plate makes you literally invulnerable to players of low level, players of mid level who aren't using blunt/pierce, and all agil-heavy builds. If anything, it needs a nerf.
Don't forget that half of the players in server are level 30. Very few are above that, and some are below.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: zagibu on May 27, 2012, 11:03:05 pm
Wearing plate makes you literally invulnerable to players of low level, players of mid level who aren't using blunt/pierce, and all agil-heavy builds. If anything, it needs a nerf.

And pseudo-health-regen is a terrible idea.

When have you last worn plate? Even scythe can interrupt you sometimes. A fucking scythe that was made to cut grass halms.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Teeth on May 27, 2012, 11:12:53 pm
Nice thought.
But I do have a question. Does people use kuyak because it's good statwise, or because it looks "game of thrones-ish"? I never knew the answer, since I was not a fan of kuyak when I was twohander.
Kuyaks were overused at the moment they got implemented, which is before Game of Thrones aired I think. I think they are very good looking armors, very high quality models regardless of your taste. People probably like the nordic, badass look, with the fur.

Wearing plate makes you literally invulnerable to players of low level, players of mid level who aren't using blunt/pierce, and all agil-heavy builds. If anything, it needs a nerf.
Maybe that was the case once, but with the new soak system pretty much any weapon can reliably interrupt you. In plate this means that if you get ganked you die, because of slowish movement speed. Yes you can take 10 hits, but what use is that ability when you don't get the chance to attack.

Nevertheless, when played in an intelligent way, someone in plate doesn't have to get ganked. Plate still allows a lot of mistakes for a not all that huge movement speed reduction.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: JOPOTINTTI on May 28, 2012, 12:02:03 am
In merc måd the health regen is fairly slow and fits the flow. i think it could work here too , since it would help tincans to regen from minor hits etc.
Title: Re: Armor
Post by: Dezilagel on May 29, 2012, 05:59:10 pm
I think that makes sense, although it doesn't disprove my point, only gives another reason why people are wearing Kujaks.  As a duel expert :) what would you say would be the optimal armor, when it comes to protection vs weight in a typical minmaxed build?

I'm no expert, but this is my opinion:

For duels wear as light armor as you can handle, but not so light that you get interrupted by point-blank stabs. Around 30-35-ish should be enough for that (but don't be a my old friend and use Heavy Gauntlets just because it's duel server) and remember to wear good boots! Leg armor is very cheap both cost and weight-wise and any decent player will fuck you over if you decide to wear Wrapping Boots to save money or whatever.

A rule of thumb is that the better you are (footwork and range control are the most important criteria here), the lower your ping and the better your connection the lighter the armor you should wear in my opinion.

Light armor + greatsword + balanced build (+ massive skills ofc) = the toughest duel builds I've faced. Sure, it's bloody annoying to face someone like Atze who consistently takes ~7 good hits to kill, but it's not really deadly and if you can concentrate it's more bloody annoying than anything.

But really, wear what you'd wear in battle on the duel server. It's practice after all and c-rpg rewards many of playstyles if played properly.